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Joe Hillmann
03-01-2013, 4:39 PM
Here is something I have been playing with. I have plans to add air/hydraulics to it. I also have designs for a large backhoe, a truck and a girder & panel system for building buildings.

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Dee Gallo
03-01-2013, 5:50 PM
Looks like fun!

Chuck Stone
03-01-2013, 7:11 PM
Don't forget to use those little square nuts that tear your
fingers apart because you can never find the little wrench..

Looks good..

Walt Langhans
03-01-2013, 7:12 PM
That's frigging cool! I love stuff like that. I can't wait until I get caught up and get to play with new designs.

Dan Hintz
03-01-2013, 8:06 PM
Don't forget to use those little square nuts that tear your fingers apart because you can never find the little wrench..

I think I still have scars... :-/

Walt Langhans
03-02-2013, 10:13 AM
So Joe... I was thinking about your erector set last night, any plans on making more pieces for it and doing a laser erector set line?

Also you do a lot of neat fun stuff although I didn't post in your last thread, the combination lock was very cool and you just can't go wrong with rubber band guns :) What's your business model? Do you just make fun stuff and see if it sells and then make more, or is there some method to your madness? I'm curious because I will probably never use my laser for engraving / making any kind of sign, trophy, plaque, or momento (just nothing I'm into) but making toys and other fun stuff is right up my ally.

George Carlson
03-02-2013, 11:17 AM
I like the idea of the erector set. Maybe acrylic would be better. Momma won't like all the black on the kids fingers. Sealing the wooden parts could take quite a bit of time. Are there any materials that cut clean like acrylic, but are not brittle?

Roy Nielsen
03-02-2013, 1:49 PM
Joe,

That is seriously a cool project.

Roy

Chuck Stone
03-02-2013, 2:10 PM
a quick trip to the sandblasting cabinet could take off any char, but a quick
dip in some sort of finish would seal it in, too. Personally, I'd do both.. I don't
care for the black edges when I do something where it will show, so I either
sand off edges I can reach, or blast it off. (if I'm not painting then) Then I'll
dip them, usually in a little tupperware bowl of shellac I keep handy.

Keeps the burnt wood smell away, too.

jim vancampen
03-02-2013, 5:08 PM
Those are cool! I was just in the erector set factory today. It's split into about 400 artist/professional spaces now. It's one of the nicer re-purposed factories in new haven.

Jesse Anderson
03-02-2013, 5:37 PM
Good Design. Not sure though if its practical on a production scale. Nice conversation piece.... Just my opinion though. Nice work by the way !!!

Joe Hillmann
03-04-2013, 9:54 AM
Walt,

I have four lasers but only one yag actually makes money for me and that only makes real money for me just before Christmas so the rest of the year I do a lot of puttering with the CO2's. Most of the wood items I do started of as toys for my kids. Up until recently I had a hard time finding plywood that had a nice surface and cut consistently in the laser so I had dozens of designs but couldn't do any "production work".

Last summer I started taking the rubberband guns with me to craft shows along with the personalized cakepans I do and pretty soon the guns were outselling everything else. So now I am doing all sorts of toy kits to try this summer. I have no idea if they will sell or not. Although I am more worried about them selling too good then not good enough.



As far as the parts turning your hands black, that doesn't look like a problem. My sons and I spent probably 10-12 hours over the weekend building different models with the skid steer kit and I don't remember noticing our hands getting dirty at all. I also didn't notice that the wood smelled like smoke ether.

Out of the parts for one skid steer kit we were also able to build a dump truck, a farm tractor with loader, a tow truck and a front end loader. I am sure the kit could build many more models but I only wanted to build models that showed off the hydraulics that come with the kit.

Walt Langhans
03-04-2013, 10:47 AM
Although I am more worried about them selling too good then not good enough.

That's a good problem to have :) If it comes to it just let people know that they are made to order and that they are going to have to wait however long to get there's. I've found that people will wait happily for something that they want as long as they get it by the time you said they would. Over estimate the time, and deliver a little sooner than expected and all will go well. Thanks for sharing!

Joe Hillmann
03-04-2013, 12:41 PM
Actually Walt, I have found just the opposite, with the rubber band guns at least. People wanted them now, not next week. Also at Christmas time I stop everything except cakepans, that is all I have time for. The problem is that is the time that everyone wants the toys. Of course I could always make a bunch of kits in my not busy time but there is always the risk of them not selling and me having time and money invested in the kits.

Joe Hillmann
03-04-2013, 12:44 PM
For those of you who had erector sets as kids (I wasn't so lucky) what age were you before you could assemble some of the more complicated kits by yourself? I thought my ten year old would be able to assemble this kit on his own but some of the more delicate assemblies he had problems with.

Dan Hintz
03-04-2013, 1:01 PM
I started playing around the time I turned 8... by 10 I was building giganto structures and complex mechanisms. But I became an engineer, so my brain was obviously wired to do such things from an early age...

Walt Langhans
03-04-2013, 2:56 PM
Actually Walt, I have found just the opposite, with the rubber band guns at least. People wanted them now, not next week. Also at Christmas time I stop everything except cakepans, that is all I have time for. The problem is that is the time that everyone wants the toys. Of course I could always make a bunch of kits in my not busy time but there is always the risk of them not selling and me having time and money invested in the kits.

How are you selling your toys? Do you have a web site or are you setting up a booth some where or both?

Regarding the erector set I was probably around 8-9 and I started building all kinds of stuff, but then again I had legos, lincon logs, and I can't remember the name but the toys that used round wooden connectors and dowels, so I was always building something :)

Joe Hillmann
03-04-2013, 3:12 PM
So far the only places I have sold the toys is at a local farmers market on Thursdays and at a flee market on Mondays during the summer only. And also at my shop.

Someone had mentioned them not being pratical to produce. I have to disagree. Between the nuts, wood and hydraulics I have about $6 in material and about 23 minutes in laser time. They won't be low cost toys but if you go look for construction toy at any department store they aren't cheap either.

Walt Langhans
03-04-2013, 4:50 PM
So far the only places I have sold the toys is at a local farmers market on Thursdays and at a flee market on Mondays during the summer only.

I think that's a perfect way to do it for that product, heck I'd buy one :) If I was doing something like that I'd probably start of taking 5 of each design and see what sells, if they all sell then bring 7 of each next time and so on. Not wasting time and money on unsold inventory is a tricky proposition at best but I would tend to try and error on the side of running out then having stuff laying around.

I would also defiantly take your erector set with you to the next one as well. If you really want to impress people I would have one of each thing that the kit can be made into on display. That way when people ask about it you can tell them it all came from the same kit for x$, but the fact that they are SEEING all the things it can make will increase the value of the kit in their minds.

Good luck let us know how it goes!

David Rust
03-04-2013, 9:56 PM
How are you selling your toys? Do you have a web site or are you setting up a booth some where or both?

...and I can't remember the name but the toys that used round wooden connectors and dowels...

Tinker Toys!!!

Walt Langhans
03-04-2013, 10:20 PM
Tinker Toys!!!

That's it! Thanks it was driving me nuts... well... more nuts

Chuck Stone
03-05-2013, 11:43 AM
I think I got my Erector set at age 6 or 7 and built basic things. Maybe by 10 or so
I was ready to move onto more advanced pieces.. but by then parts went missing.
(oldest of 5 at the time.. shared toybox. NO CHANCE of keeping kits together!)

Martin Boekers
03-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Joe, have you thought of packaging designs. there are some here that do pretty well with
their packages.

One thing you may want to consider, is having some samples when you show them with
personalization on them. If I was a kid (ok, I still am in spirit) it would magnify the coolness
if say it had a logo "Marty's Excavation" on it.

Also, as far as burning goes, maybe others should try other woods such as Maple.
If your going for a higher market the wood can make a difference.

I have made some personalized gliders and the kids loved them,

Joe Hillmann
03-05-2013, 12:35 PM
Here is my plan for packaging. The first picture is just there to give an idea of what I am thinking, it will actually be photos or traced line drawings from photos on the cover. Along with age suggestions, number of parts and something along the lines of HILLMANN'S CONSTRUCTION SET.
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When the lid is opened this is what is inside. I may include a screwdriver depending on how cheap I can get them at Menards. In the upper left hand corner you can see the hydraulic cylinder. After the test modes were built my kids fought over taking turns playing with the hydraulics on them. I think that should be a big hit. The instruction booklet will also be in the top layer.
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Under they yellow layer is the black layer which is the cab, bucket and engine cover.
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And under the black layer are 32 right angle connectors. (there are several missing in the photo). One connector in each corner and one in the center are very lightly glued to the box to keep the layers in place when the box is handled.
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This is actually the first product I have made that I have spent much time on packaging design. I have thought of putting a clear window in the front of the box so the parts can be seen inside but that brings up all sorts of problems.

I had thought of customizing the kits but I plan on selling most of them at flee markets and craft shows so customizing them add either shipping or extra running around.

Joe Hillmann
03-05-2013, 12:42 PM
Edit: I posted twice.

Martin Boekers
03-05-2013, 12:43 PM
I was thinking about packaging the vectors and selling that like LaseBuzz designs.. :)

Joe Hillmann
03-05-2013, 12:51 PM
I was thinking about packaging the vectors and selling that like LaseBuzz designs.. :)


Oh, I had thought of it but the problem is everything is optimized for a 18x32 bed with many parts shairing edges so they can't be run on a smaller laser without a lot of reworking. Although for most items I still have the unoptomized originals but they are such a mess I don't even know if I could figure them out let alone someone else. The other problem is everything is designed around plywood that is .110 thick which isn't a common thickness but I can get truckloads of it.

Joe Hillmann
03-05-2013, 1:05 PM
My next project is a tracked excavator with four sets of hydraulics on it. Right now the tracks are giving me a bit of trouble.

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 9:37 AM
I now have ten of the kits ready to go except the instruction manuals. When making them in bulk the tires became a real challenge. I ended up redesigning them 3 times to get a wheel that , looks good, rolls, is strong, is easy to assemble, it easy to attach to the models and doesn't take too long to cut on the laser.

Here is a finished model.
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Here is the other side with the hydraulic system on it. These pictures don't show it but there is a seat and a few details inside as well as a SMV sign on the back.
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Here is about 1/3 of 10 kits. Making these kits was the longest I have ever ran my CO2 lasers at any one time.
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Chuck Stone
03-07-2013, 11:20 AM
Suggestion?

Can the yellow be adjusted to be a little more red?
(sort of like a Kodak or Caterpillar yellow?)
and somewhere in there you need RED!
The blue is good. They yellow is OK. Red would
make it 'pop'.

Or are they sold raw, and people paint their own?

Just thinking from a visual appeal/impulse buy angle..

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 12:35 PM
In the kits the blue has been turned to black. but one of them is red (I had planned to make them all red but ran out of red paint. As far as a more orange yellow, I guess that depends on what colors rustolieum makes in spray cans. Actually all of the parts that are blue in the picture are extras so when kids start making there own they have plenty of parts to choose from.

Dee Gallo
03-07-2013, 12:41 PM
I love this Joe, I hope they take off big time for you!

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 12:45 PM
One thing I had troubles with when designing this kit was what level of realism I wanted it to have. My very first attempt at it was much more realistic. The problem is having the parts that realistic made it very difficult to use the pieces to build anything else. I had to go back and redesign a lot of the parts to make them more generic so they can be used in multiple ways.

That is one big complaint with new lego kits, they have so many special parts in the kits that it is hard to build anything else with them.

I wanted to make these as versatile as possible. So on top of the parts that are needed to build the kit I added 10 extra 90 degree angles and 20 extra flat pieces. All those extra pieces will allow many other items to be built.

Chuck Stone
03-07-2013, 1:34 PM
good thinking. I seem to remember instructions with my Erector Set.. I think they
went in the trash with the wrapping paper though. I saw someone else's when
I visited and we followed plans to build particular things.. I thought that was
pretty cool and wished I still had mine.
I know what you're saying about getting locked in. I wonder if the specialty kits
lock you in so they can force you to buy more..

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 4:24 PM
Right now I am writing the instruction book so I have to build all the models that I want to include in the manual and take pictures step by step.


Here is a dumptruck. The blue pieces will be black in the kits, the bed raises and lowers with the hydraulic system
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Here is a snow plow added to the front.
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And a tow truck boom added to the bed.
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Now to tear it apart and invent something else. Oh what a tough job I have, having to play with toys at work.

I don't think the truck is a cool as the skid steer but it's still not bad.

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 6:44 PM
Tractor made with the same kit


Bucket down.
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Bucket up
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Cab added.
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Different angle.
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Walt Langhans
03-07-2013, 11:12 PM
Again, very very cool :) Have you decided how much you are going to charge for them?

Joe Hillmann
03-07-2013, 11:27 PM
Again, very very cool :) Have you decided how much you are going to charge for them?
Unfortunately the price keeps climbing up $0.50 or $1.00 at a time. Everything is taking a bit longer then planned. Right now it is looking like they will be $38 if I sell them without a screwdriver and wrench/pliers.

I nearly have the instruction manual ready to go. I still have the front end loader to build and write up plans for and I may also include an airplane or helicopter.

I got bored with building them so spent a bit of time figuring out how to make track and wheels for my next kit and came up with this.
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The problem is to cut out the parts for one short track like that and the wheel/gears takes about ten minutes.

Walt Langhans
03-08-2013, 11:42 AM
I have a similar problem in the fact that I could add more detail to what I'm doing but the increase in the laser time starts to push the cost beyond what people are going to pay. But those are very cool and I bet some people will want them. Why not make 2- 3 take them with you and sell them as an add on to the kit and see what happens.

Chuck Stone
03-08-2013, 12:05 PM
I like Walt's idea of the add-on.
Makes the kit expandable..and by then you already
know they're committed to your product. You could
have an 'advanced' package.. a track package.. a hydraulic
package .. I'm sure lots of ideas would come to mind, but
they'd all work off of the basic kit.

Joe Hillmann
03-08-2013, 1:25 PM
I have been using some 1/8 door skins that are a veneer over a mdf core. I chose it because it is already finish sanded, a very consistent .110 thick (which matters for tab and slot construction), it is very consistent with no knot holes which cause problems with the laser, and I can get tons of it locally. The down side of it is it is dense and slow to cut on the laser. To guarantee I cut all the way through it over the entire bed of the laser I have to run a 4.2% speed.

Mel Falks (a member of the forum) sent me a sample of italian bending ply this week. And I am able to cut that at 15% speed. The problem with it is it is fragile in one direction because all the plys go the same direction. So now I am on the search again for something similar to the bending ply but with the plys not all running the same direction. If I can find something that cuts as nice as the bending ply but is stronger it will cut my lasering time in half which will allow many more possibilities without raising the price or the same items at a lower price.