To PM2700 or not

[Chris Fairbanks]

I am a weekend workshop user and have a bunch of projects around this house, my parents and a friend. I suspect over the next 2-3 years I need to build doors for 3 kitchens and at least 8 bathrooms. With that I have been looking for a used scmi 110 or something around that for a year and a half and just not finding anything decent shape or in the right price locally. I see them on some of the various auction sites for $3-5k but I am looking at 500-1000 in freight costs to get it here, NorCal, and then a bunch of money on a phase converter and sub panel and then any work the used shaper is going to need to run right. Staring out new the pm2700 looks really interesting with the built in moble base as I need to be able to move the shaper around and with the powermatic sale starting I can get the 5hp delivered with lift gate for $3300 to my garage and just plug it in. I just want to make sure for someone like me doing 2-4 projects a year the pm2700 will be good enough vs something like a used scmi. Thoughts?

[Rich Riddle]

You have created a classic example of a false dilemma for yourself. Far more options exist other than the PM2700 or the SCMI, great options. I recently purchased a used MiniMax T3 for example, a phenomenal shaper at what member here called a "you suck" price. That Powermatic doesn't review well at all, on-sale or not. Comparing a SCMI to a new Powermatic isn't something most people would consider an Apple to Apple comparison. That said, for the tasks you discuss either will prove sufficiently built.

In Craigslist, there is currently an older American made Powermatic shaper with a power feeder and shaper cutters for $1425 in Grass Valley, a Rockwell/Delta with Grizzly powerfeeder in the San Francisco Craigslist for $800 in Concord, and many more. Use SearchTemptest. On most used tool purchases, you can run the machine before purchasing. Sellers even show you how the machines work in my experiences. The advantage of that is you get to see the machine you are purchasing actually work.

You commit numerous logical fallacies in your reasoning. Nothing guarantees a new shaper will "run right" any more than a used one. You will need to set-up any shaper you purchase, new or used. "Just plugging it in" isn't an option for the wise when using a power tool. New doesn't mean better or worse for that matter. You don't need a 5 HP machine to do what you want; anything 3 HP or above will handle it like butter. The shaper you find won't need to be three-phase if it's used, the MiniMax has single phase. The "free shipping" on the new tool isn't free; you will pay dearly for it.

[Paul McGaha]

Chris,

I suggest you run a search on PM-2700 here on the creek. From what I've read, the tool is extremely well liked by thier owners. I've seen more than 1 person state the PM-2700 was the best tool in their shop.

That said, I don't know that you can compare something from Powermatic to the commercial tool companies like SCMI, Felder, Minimax, etc.

I'm not a PM-2700 owner, I have a 3 HP Delta shaper I bought from a creeker.

Good luck with it.

PHM

[Randy Henry]

I have had one for 3 years now. Got it used off CL. Great tool. Don't know where Rich has seen all the bad reviews, though I don't search for reviews on the machine no more. The only problem I had, was the motor pulley set screw came out twice. I put some lock-tite on the set screw, and no more problems with that. I don't see alot of the SCM/Minimax shapers around my area at all on the used side, but when I do, they come out of production shops, and I am not interested in those. The 2700 suits my needs just well. Are the Euro's better? I never used one, but probably. If I were to spend that much money though, I would go with the Weaver set up.

[Peter Quinn]

I was saving for a PM 2700 when a used minimax fell into my hands, otherwise I'd be a PM 2700 owner now. I kicked the tires, I approve. It will handle everything you have described and more, it's a well built machine. It's not an SCMI production shaper, but your not a multi shift millwork shop. I do this for a living and enjoy large solid tank sized shapers, but its more than you need at home. The fire sale prices of a few years back seem to have ended save a few exceptional cases, so you are probably going to come close to or over the price of a new small shaper once you add phase convertor, repairs, etc, but you might get a feeder in the bundle too.

So either way, you win. If you decide to go big used shaper, you'll have more machine than most home shops ever use, but real smooth performance. Go Pm2700, you'll have a decent mid sized tool with some of the modern euro design features in a lighter build. I'd stay away from used PM 27's personally, they are a headache to me.

[Cary Falk]

I also think that there are many options out there that would work for a weekend warrior. I have a 3hp Grizzly and it does everything I need it to do. The fence isn't as nice as the PM but it cost about 1/4 the price. What you will also want to consider getting is a powerfeeder. I found a used one for $200. I finally got to use it last weekend and it makes the shaper so much nicer to use.

[Jeff Monson]

Former PM2700 owner here also, I have nothing but great things to say about that shaper. The fence is awesome, the top is flat and super nice, the mobility on this machine vs the tablesaw is much nicer. Its tapped for a feeder from the factory, which I used, and loved. I also bought the router spindle for mine, which came in handy. Mine was the 3hp model, but I would opt for a 5hp given the sale price. I know there are alot of used machines out there, but for your situation it would be great. I sold mine because I bought a combo machine, (saw/shaper), otherwise it would have never left my shop.

[Tom Welch]

I have a 5 HP PM2700 shaper that I bough new. I love it. I also own 2 Delta 3 HP shapers. The digital spindal height read out and the fence make it a pleasure to use. The large table and the daul dust ports are nice as well. I use it primarly to make the raised panels for cabinet doors, although I use it for all my other tasks. (I have the delta set up for cope and stick cuts on rail and stiles)

[Patrick McCarthy]

I got a 3hp PM 2700 last year and like it. The 3hp needs a 30 amp circuit; so I assume they recommend an even larger one for the 5hp . . . .you might want to check it out depending upon your electrical feed.

I have it used it for raised panel doors and it could do that all day long if you want; not sure what i would need go to 5hp for . . . .

The dust collection has two ports, but I get chips/dust everywhere, so much so that i have checked the hoses a few times but they were clear. Most of my exhausting chip seem to be from the side of the hood.

Power feeder is nice and makes it much safer.

Good quality (Garniga, Zuani, etc) cutters heads are expensive but OH SOOOO NICE. Smooth spinning, great quality cut, well made, . . . . NOTHING like a router.

If i had it to do over again, i would have taken the Alpine Technical Workshop course in Ouray, Co BEFORE ordering the shaper . . . . and then probably would have ended up with a euro, but a much more modest one than the Martins that Joe the Gentle Giant has. Either way I would want to get an AIGNER finger style fence.

Whatever you get, you need to get an Aigner catalogue for some great assessories, especially if you are hand feeding things, such as for the coping (end of the rails) cuts.

If you are like me and have no experience with a shaper, look into the course at Joe Calhoon's in Colorado. He is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet.
For cutters, check out the Rangate site. Greg Godbout is knowledgeable, helpful and patient.

[Erik Christensen]

Chris - I was in your exact situation 3 years ago. Took all the advice here and really really really looked for a used euro shaper. The only ones I found were either so far away I would have buy sight unseen or a few local that were out of commercial shops that had a ton of use & 3 phase to boot. After a year of trying i decided what I wanted was a good shaper i could use NOW vs a "you suck" euro shaper x years in the future. I bought a PM2700 with 4 wheel feeder and never for a second regretted it. Yah it might not have the tank like durability & features of a euro shaper (assuming I could ever find one) but for the 10 hours a month I use it and for the things I do I would never notice the difference. For me & my shop it was the right choice - my only regret was that I wasted a year looking for a used one.

[Rick Fisher]

It really depends on what your going to use the shaper for and how often.

I own 2 x SCM machines and 2 x Felder Machines.. None are shapers.

I have a General International 3hp Shaper with a Maggi 3 wheel feeder.. It works okay but its pretty obvious its not from the same gene pool as the Euro machinery..

The PM is probably the same.. Decent machine and more than adequate for most of us .. A new SCM T-130 shaper is the same money as a new Ford F-150 .. its not a fair comparison to anything Asian import .. but it doesnt mean the PM wont do everything you need done..

[Chris Fairbanks]

You have created a classic example of a false dilemma for yourself. Far more options exist other than the PM2700 or the SCMI, great options. I recently purchased a used MiniMax T3 for example, a phenomenal shaper at what member here called a "you suck" price. That Powermatic doesn't review well at all, on-sale or not. Comparing a SCMI to a new Powermatic isn't something most people would consider an Apple to Apple comparison. That said, for the tasks you discuss either will prove sufficiently built.

In Craigslist, there is currently an older American made Powermatic shaper with a power feeder and shaper cutters for $1425 in Grass Valley, a Rockwell/Delta with Grizzly powerfeeder in the San Francisco Craigslist for $800 in Concord, and many more. Use SearchTemptest. On most used tool purchases, you can run the machine before purchasing. Sellers even show you how the machines work in my experiences. The advantage of that is you get to see the machine you are purchasing actually work.

You commit numerous logical fallacies in your reasoning. Nothing guarantees a new shaper will "run right" any more than a used one. You will need to set-up any shaper you purchase, new or used. "Just plugging it in" isn't an option for the wise when using a power tool. New doesn't mean better or worse for that matter. You don't need a 5 HP machine to do what you want; anything 3 HP or above will handle it like butter. The shaper you find won't need to be three-phase if it's used, the MiniMax has single phase. The "free shipping" on the new tool isn't free; you will pay dearly for it.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I am leaning toward the PM 2700 for a few reasons. I have a full time job in the tech industry and a young son with a 2nd baby on the way so time is very limited for me now. As Erik said in another response I have spent nearly 3 years looking for a decent machine locally on craigslist. While I really wanted an SCMI I was open to other well made brands. The problem was not much comes up thats local to me and between not having a truck and a bad back I am concerned with trying to get enough people together and a truck to try and move a very heavy used shaper. The ones I do find all seem to be 3 phase power which between a phase converter, sub panel, electrician, etc is going to cost me well over $1000 just to get the power in place to run it. My other issue is my shop is in my garage so I need something with a mobile base so I can move it to the middle of the garage when I pull a car out to use it. Even if I can find something for $1500 that needs a little work, the power upgrades to support 3 phase and figuring out how to get the shaper here I think the PM2700 is a better option for me right now as I am only looking at making 150-200 doors over the next 2-3 years and it should be more than enough for that. I wish I could have found a "you suck" Euro shaper but its not in my cards this time around. Hopefully down the road. Thanks

[Peter Quinn]

I have two small euro shapers (yes, I'm calling an almost #900 machine small) and a phase convertor. Trust me, you will be fine with the PM2700, it will do everything you ask admirably, and it sounds like a great fit for your space. The best mobile base for a euro shaper is a pallet jack! I thinks its great that so many here are picking up these huge old euro shapers and giving them a second life in smaller and home shops, I did, it beats the pants off a 3HP 3/4" where many of us started. But often its a hobby in itself. You are getting in well above the delta HD threshold to begin with, you don't need a T-130 to make 3/4" doors, I know guys that have made that many doors with a 1 1/2 HP router! And IME the phase conversion for a 7HP shaper ran about $1200 in parts/materials, add 3-5 hours professional labor to that (did mine myself, not everybody wants to or can).

If you said "Guys, I want to make 400LF of 4" crown molding, and its all radius work , and I have a pile of 2 1/4" carriage house doors to mill, and I want to pattern shape 3" leg blanks in one pass with a spiral head, and ......" then I'd be thinking a production shaper were your best serious option. But for cabinet doors? Thats like going to pick up a bag of potting soil in a tri-axel dump truck. Or taking the kids to soccer practice in a greyhound bus. :D

[Chris Fairbanks]

I have two small euro shapers (yes, I'm calling an almost #900 machine small) and a phase convertor. Trust me, you will be fine with the PM2700, it will do everything you ask admirably, and it sounds like a great fit for your space. The best mobile base for a euro shaper is a pallet jack! I thinks its great that so many here are picking up these huge old euro shapers and giving them a second life in smaller and home shops, I did, it beats the pants off a 3HP 3/4" where many of us started. But often its a hobby in itself. You are getting in well above the delta HD threshold to begin with, you don't need a T-130 to make 3/4" doors, I know guys that have made that many doors with a 1 1/2 HP router! And IME the phase conversion for a 7HP shaper ran about $1200 in parts/materials, add 3-5 hours professional labor to that (did mine myself, not everybody wants to or can).

If you said "Guys, I want to make 400LF of 4" crown molding, and its all radius work , and I have a pile of 2 1/4" carriage house doors to mill, and I want to pattern shape 3" leg blanks in one pass with a spiral head, and ......" then I'd be thinking a production shaper were your best serious option. But for cabinet doors? Thats like going to pick up a bag of potting soil in a tri-axel dump truck. Or taking the kids to soccer practice in a greyhound bus. :D

Thanks Peter. I have a 1 1/2HP router in a table and have done 50+ doors on it and I am just tired of the quality of the cuts in both the amount of sanding I need to do and the tightness of the joints. I am using good quality bits, mostly whiteside, but I know a 1/2 router bit vs 4"-6" shaper head on a 1 1/4" spindle will be a big upgrade in quality for me. Down the road I hope to do a little mill work, new front door or two or some leg blanks but that's a decade away I bet at this point in my life. Hopefully by that time I can afford a larger place and build a dedicated shop so I can get a nice small shaper like you :)

BTW PM2700 was just ordered. Looking forward to the upgrade vs my old router table.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks Peter. I have a 1 1/2HP router in a table and have done 50+ doors on it and I am just tired of the quality of the cuts in both the amount of sanding I need to do and the tightness of the joints. I am using good quality bits, mostly whiteside, but I know a 1/2 router bit vs 4"-6" shaper head on a 1 1/4" spindle will be a big upgrade in quality for me. Down the road I hope to do a little mill work, new front door or two or some leg blanks but that's a decade away I bet at this point in my life. Hopefully by that time I can afford a larger place and build a dedicated shop so I can get a nice small shaper like you :)

BTW PM2700 was just ordered. Looking forward to the upgrade vs my old router table.


Let me be the first to say congrats on that shaper! Enjoy it, be safe, and do ask any and as many questions as you need. There are a bunch of experienced shaper operators with lots of different takes here on the creek presently. There are always a number of good ways to set these things up, and often a few not so good too. Best to build your skills with that tool carefully, it can be dangerous if used incorrectly. Your quality of cut is about to go way up! Did you order a feeder? Hand feed can get you started with proper hold downs but a feeder really opens up the shaper's capacity and improves safety.

[david brum]

I think a PM2700 sounds like a great choice. There are only a few shapers that seem to fit the middle ground between vintage/vintage knockoff designs and industrial designs. I love that you can run both a 1 1/4" spindle and a router bit on the same machine. It really makes sense. Are you listening, Grizzly? With all of the new ideas in shaper design and utility, it seems odd that there aren't more choices for the home enthusiast. Maybe the market is too small?

Anyway, post some pictures when you receive it.

[Peter Quinn]

I think a PM2700 sounds like a great choice. There are only a few shapers that seem to fit the middle ground between vintage/vintage knockoff designs and industrial designs. I love that you can run both a 1 1/4" spindle and a router bit on the same machine. It really makes sense. Are you listening, Grizzly? With all of the new ideas in shaper design and utility, it seems odd that there aren't more choices for the home enthusiast. Maybe the market is too small?

Anyway, post some pictures when you receive it.


My Ideal for the small/home shop? Sliding table, 4HP, 1800rpm-12K rpm, 1 1/4" spindle, router collet, less than $4000 dollars (way less). Can it be done?

[howard s hanger]

Not to hijack the thread but this raises an interesting question for me. I have a shop made router table and cabinet with a Jointech system. The router is a PC 7518 so it's got plenty of power for me (I think?). I also have a Hammer K3 Winner and a A3-31 so I understand and enjoy the benefits of a euro machine. Is going to a shaper that much of an improvement over my current setup? I also swallow hard when thinking about the tooling that you have to buy with a shaper. Is it worth it to get the 1/2" spindle instead of the 3/4 to 1 1/4" customary on a shaper?

[david brum]

My Ideal for the small/home shop? Sliding table, 4HP, 1800rpm-12K rpm, 1 1/4" spindle, router collet, less than $4000 dollars (way less). Can it be done?

Great point about rpm. I'm curious about why a $60 Harbor Freight router will run at 25K, but a shaper tops out at 10K. There must be some type of bearing that will handle the extra speed and have a reasonable lifespan.

[Stephen Cherry]

Not to hijack the thread but this raises an interesting question for me. I have a shop made router table and cabinet with a Jointech system. The router is a PC 7518 so it's got plenty of power for me (I think?). I also have a Hammer K3 Winner and a A3-31 so I understand and enjoy the benefits of a euro machine. Is going to a shaper that much of an improvement over my current setup? I also swallow hard when thinking about the tooling that you have to buy with a shaper. Is it worth it to get the 1/2" spindle instead of the 3/4 to 1 1/4" customary on a shaper?

The tooling that you "have to buy" in my opinion is the reason to buy a shaper, and I think that most people will have their "eureka moment" the first time they use a shaper.

[Stephen Cherry]

Great point about rpm. I'm curious about why a $60 Harbor Freight router will run at 25K, but a shaper tops out at 10K. There must be some type of bearing that will handle the extra speed and have a reasonable lifespan.

The router can turn at high speeds because the bearings are small diameter. Remember, for a given rpm, the "ball speed" (I just made this term up) is proportional to the bearing diameter. So a big shaper bearing needs to move the balls through the bearing much faster than a small router because they travel a longer distance going around. At some point the grease cant move fast enough to get out of the way.

[howard s hanger]

Kinda like when I used my slider for the first time I suppose... :D

[david brum]

Hmm, that make sense. Isn't there a European shaper that turns at 15K, though? It seems like bearing/grease technology must have advanced since 10K became the standard.

[Stephen Cherry]

Hmm, that make sense. Isn't there a European shaper that turns at 15K, though? It seems like bearing/grease technology must have advanced since 10K became the standard.

The cr onsrud pin routers handle this with oil mist lubrication. Plus, there are some higher speed greases. I read up on this a while back, it's all googlable.

[Chris Fairbanks]

Let me be the first to say congrats on that shaper! Enjoy it, be safe, and do ask any and as many questions as you need. There are a bunch of experienced shaper operators with lots of different takes here on the creek presently. There are always a number of good ways to set these things up, and often a few not so good too. Best to build your skills with that tool carefully, it can be dangerous if used incorrectly. Your quality of cut is about to go way up! Did you order a feeder? Hand feed can get you started with proper hold downs but a feeder really opens up the shaper's capacity and improves safety.

I picked up a 1hp Delta power feeder used off of craigslist for like $250 or $300 3 years ago when I started looking for a shaper, unfortunately I just never found the shaper to go along with it until now :) I knew right away from reading here and other places that I did not want my fingers anywhere near a shaper head when I finally did get one.

So what about tooling. Looking for a rail and style set and a raise panel head. Was looking at the insert Freud but just not sure if its the quality I was looking for vs some of the higher end setups. If I can deal with a single set of rail and style cutters it looks like the freeborn braised cutters would be cheaper than the Freud insert setup but I would be stuck with a single pattern vs a whole set with the Freud. Whats your guys thoughts? I want something decent but don't want to spend $2k either.

[Peter Quinn]

I picked up a 1hp Delta power feeder used off of craigslist for like $250 or $300 3 years ago when I started looking for a shaper, unfortunately I just never found the shaper to go along with it until now :) I knew right away from reading here and other places that I did not want my fingers anywhere near a shaper head when I finally did get one.

So what about tooling. Looking for a rail and style set and a raise panel head. Was looking at the insert Freud but just not sure if its the quality I was looking for vs some of the higher end setups. If I can deal with a single set of rail and style cutters it looks like the freeborn braised cutters would be cheaper than the Freud insert setup but I would be stuck with a single pattern vs a whole set with the Freud. Whats your guys thoughts? I want something decent but don't want to spend $2k either.

Great to hear about the feeder, that will start you off right. On tooling, it's expensive, usually winds up costing more than the shaper long run. I have the Freud rp- 2000 panel insert head, it does a fine job, very close to the quality if the freeborn 3 wing braised heads. It is a 2 wing cutter, so to keep the cuts per inch the same you have to feed a little slower, never been a problem for me, I'm happy with the quality of cut it makes. There are more expensive 3Z insert panel systems which probably give even better results, but the Freud is IMO a respectable quality of cut at an affordable price, and the profiles cover most of the major ones I like. But for similar money you could get amana braised heads, one for each kitchen you have planned, buy them as needed, so there is no simple clear answer as to what's best for your situation.

i haven't used the RS -2000 door sets, but two things occur to me. You are stuck with a fixed panel groove which makes plywood flat panels a problem if they are other than the same groove thickness the set makes. If you don't use plywood panels then no problem, if you do a stacked 6 pc set is more flexible, particularly with a split groover or groovers under sized for plywood. Second, with a stacked set you can produce stub tenons for glass doors that add strength and aid in alignment. You can make glass doors with the rs-2000 but you are limited to the basic cope and stick with rabbit, no stub tenon. You may not understand the implication if you haven't made glass doors, it may not matter if you won't be, but I prefer individual cutters to a one piece insert for the flexibility. A garniga set gives you both insert flexibility and a stackable utter set, but its approaching $2k, ouch for the small shop. Again, no clear winner, depends on your needs, consider that decision carefully.

[Erik Christensen]

chris - nice to see you got a power feeder to use with your new PM2700. if you want unbelievable cut quality try climb cuts - yah you get wood chips ALL over the place as the cutter tends to throw chips down the table rather than back to the dust shroud but the difference in finished product is amazing. I got the power feeder for safety but love it for the climb cut quality.

[Phil Simard]

I got a used PM2700 5 HP a year ago and I'm satisfied with it. Like some other pointed out, the set screw on the motor pulley went loose and caused vibration. Fixed with locktite. The mobile base is awesome. The digital readout is very handy. I find the fence a little soft especially when the feeder pushes against it. But when I shopped for an "import" shaper, it looked like the best available. I find my machine to vibrate a little bit, the metal handles make a rattle noise when the machine is running. Maybe it's the two bearings that are worn. Overall, I'm very satisfied of the machine. I use a big 5 inch tall molding head on it and I've got plenty of power.

I also have the freud RP-1000 kit with a couple of profiles. It's cheaper than a dedicated Freeborn raised panel cutter for each profile. I do my raised panels in 2 pass, it makes a better cut and less sanding.

I saw many negatives comments about the RS-2000. Too much time to set up. And pretty expensive. I bough an Amana rail & stile set. The set is 4 pieces (not 6). It's OK but not awesome. What I don't like is I do cope cut face down first, but I need to do the stick face up after, if I keep the rotation counterclockwise. It's better to always register the same face at the same place, like face down all the time. I bough a used Freeborn 6 pieces for under 100$ and I am happy with it. Look on ebay, there is a lot of used/new quality cutters at a bargain. Personally, I think it's better to start with only one rail-stile profile and 2-3 profiles for raised panel. The panel is what you see first. Most untrained people don't even realize that there is different rail-stile profiles.

[Stephen Cherry]

I bough a used Freeborn 6 pieces for under 100$ and I am happy with it. Look on ebay, there is a lot of used/new quality cutters at a bargain. Personally, I think it's better to start with only one rail-stile profile and 2-3 profiles for raised panel. The panel is what you see first. Most untrained people don't even realize that there is different rail-stile profiles.

100 bucks for a feeborn set is a geat deal. If I could only have one it would be a pc 10-010. It seems to me that it's about the most "normal". Plus, if you get a good deal on a used set, you could likely resell for about what you paid.

[Peter Quinn]

What I don't like is I do cope cut face down first, but I need to do the stick face up after, if I keep the rotation counterclockwise. It's better to always register the same face at the same place, like face down all the time.

Thats a pretty strange arrangement Amana's got going there, one face up, one face down? I suppose you could run one cut counter rotation to eliminate the issue, but thats not my favorite thing to do. I like the freeborn system, and infinity, and schmidt, and pretty much every set I've ever used come to think of it. Both cope and stick face down, so if there are any discrepancies in stock thickness the error presents to the back of the door where it is less noticeable. If you get misalignment on the face you can wind up having to sand and changing the small steps between face and molding that most doors have, this looks poor. Wonder why they would do that? I've found most amana cutters to be decent quality, never used their rail/stile sets, probably won't hearing the orientation.

[Mel Fulks]

Sounds like a packaging mistake. As said before I have seen catalogs that every page said:ALL CUTTERS ARE SOLD FACE DOWN COUNTER CLOCKWISE ROTATION. Anything else was referred to as a special order. Never heard of a combo set.

[John Lanciani]

My Ideal for the small/home shop? Sliding table, 4HP, 1800rpm-12K rpm, 1 1/4" spindle, router collet, less than $4000 dollars (way less). Can it be done?

My Rojek shaper hits all of your points except for speed- it tops out at 10.5k - and also has a tilting spindle.