Ohishi Waterstones?

[Augusto Orosco]

My Lie-Nielsen newsletter arrived today, and they are offering the line of Ohishi waterstones. Apparently, these don't need soaking, just a spritz and are good to go. I think these stones have been around for awhile; since a Google search finds razor and knife aficionados discussing them (and some argue that they do need some light soaking, though... although the spritz/soak debate also applies to Shaptons, iirc)

Anyone has any experience with them? I looked at Stu's website and he doesn't carry them (at least my search didn't find them).

[Chris Griggs]

I saw that too and I was wondering when someone was going to post this. I tried them out at an LN show this fall. They're nice stones. Quite dense, smooth feeling and IIRC medium hardness. I think I liked the 10k pretty well, but that the 1k was a bit soft for my taste...don't get me wrong I liked it and its by no means soft, I just remember thinking that I would like it better if it was a bit harder. They had the 3k out to but I don't think I tried it which is too bad because a 3-4k stone is the one stone I could actually still use and $45 is a pretty good price for a thick good quality stone in tht grit range. I'd like to see what Stu knows about them. In my uneducated view from a brief trial they are another quite good option on the market, but not markedly better or worse then other good stones on the market (or as Stu would say "Meh", which loosely translates to "Perfectly good stone but he's used better" :))

Anyway, again, I liked them and thought they seemed like a very good option, but I'm not going to run out and replace anything with them, as I liked my somewhat harder stones better.

(NOTE: take everything I just said with a grain of salt. It was October when I tried them out and it was only for 5-10 minutes so I may be remembering wrong)

[Augusto Orosco]

I saw that too and I was wondering when someone was going to post this. I tried them out at an LN show this fall. They're nice stones. Pretty smooth feeling and IIRC medium hardness. I think I liked the 10k pretty well, but that the 1k was a bit soft for my taste...still medium hard, I just like something harder. They had the 3k out to but I don't think I tried it which is too bad because a 3-4k stone is the one stone I could actually still use and $45 is a pretty good price for a thick good quality stone in tht grit range. I'd like to see what Stu knows about them. In my uneducated view from a brief trial they are another quite good option on the market, but not markedly better or worse then other good stones on the market (or as Stu would say "Meh", which loosely translates to "Perfectly good stone but he's used better" :))

Anyway, again, I liked them and thought they seemed like a very ood option, but I'm not going to run out and replace anything with them.

Yeah, what caught my attention is that they don't require soaking, which immediately made me compare them to the Shaptons. I know is not quite an apples to apples comparison given that we are talking ceramic, and the grits might not correspond, etc., etc., but generally speaking, these Ohishi are ticker and wider than the Shaptons, while also cheaper (using Amazon prices for the Shapton Pros).

[David Weaver]

Dare I say it...like every accessory that LN carries, they are available more cheaply elsewhere.

Just eyeballing them (I got the same email blast as everyone else), they look like they might be magnesia binder stones. If they come with a warning that says they can be soaked but can't be soaked too long, that'd be strike one toward classifying them as a magnesia binder. It'd be interesting to know who makes them, or if they are instead just another of the billions of stones that imanishi makes and brands as something or other that isn't imanishi.

I doubt there are many stones that are 25mm thick that could match the life span of a shapton pro at 15mm thick. I can think of maybe one or two. Most of the 25 mm stones that are out there won't come close.

[Augusto Orosco]

Dare I say it...like every accessory that LN carries, they are available more cheaply elsewhere.

Just eyeballing them (I got the same email blast as everyone else), they look like they might be magnesia binder stones. If they come with a warning that says they can be soaked but can't be soaked too long, that'd be strike one toward classifying them as a magnesia binder. It'd be interesting to know who makes them, or if they are instead just another of the billions of stones that imanishi makes and brands as something or other that isn't imanishi.

I doubt there are many stones that are 25mm thick that could match the life span of a shapton pro at 15mm thick. I can think of maybe one or two. Most of the 25 mm stones that are out there won't come close.

Thanks for the clarification on the life span issue. A casual hobbyist like myself will probably not wear out either stone in many many years anyway, so I shouldn't have focused on that. And the price advantage compared to the Shaptons would make them very interesting only if their performance is also up to par. That's what I am most interested to know!

[David Weaver]

You're right. People wore out the old soft kings and people wore out the shapton 1000 glasstone, which is a softer stone than the pro stone and 5mm thick in abrasive. I have no clue what Shapton was thinking when they designed that one, the pros are a different animal.

A lot of the stones you see worn out are due to overzealous flattening that can be overcome by skill. We don't care so much now, we'd just buy another stone (I would), but you'll note literature from craftsmen and knife makers sometimes talking about how to sharpen sparingly with expensive stones so as not to waste them.

[David Weaver]

I haven't got a clue what the seller on amazon is thinking with their prices of shapton pros. They are about the same overall as those oshishis.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shaptonpro.html (no affiliation with this vendor, just using them as an example, and stu's also got them probably in the ballpark when shipping for two or three stones are considered, maybe cheaper)

Both types are fairly expensive compared to some stones and very inexpensive compared to others.

[Chris Griggs]

Like I said I am struggling to remember what they're like, but I do remember that they are a very very different animal than Shapton. I can't remember if I thought they might be magnesia or not, but they are definitely closer in feel to a magnesia stone than a Shapton. I remember them being dense and gritty. They would probably be preferable for someone just learning to freehand (or someone who doesn't like hard stones) in that (again IIRC) they are smoother, creamier/slurrier, softer (perhaps softer than I'm remembering) and more forgiving. I know I would have liked them better when I was learning to freehand, even though now I would prefer a Shapton. The Shaptons are like honing on a really hard piece of plastic/rubber...the water just sits on top. They are very smooth and slick but being a fairly impermeable stone there is a learning curve (short learning curve) to avoid aquaplaning.

Like I said, there is a lot I don't recall, but in terms of synthetic water stones, very different animal than a Shapton pro.

[Chris Griggs]

The description on this site refers to a "clay matrix", not sure what that means though or if its accurate.

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=87550

[Stuart Tierney]

My Lie-Nielsen newsletter arrived today, and they are offering the line of Ohishi waterstones. Apparently, these don't need soaking, just a spritz and are good to go. I think these stones have been around for awhile; since a Google search finds razor and knife aficionados discussing them (and some argue that they do need some light soaking, though... although the spritz/soak debate also applies to Shaptons, iirc)

Anyone has any experience with them? I looked at Stu's website and he doesn't carry them (at least my search didn't find them).


Lets nip this in the bud nice and quick.

#1, I've never heard of them. I think I looked up who did actually make them, and found them, and it took me about an hour. Not Imanishi.

#2, I've never used them, so cannot comment on whether they'll be any good or not. I probably will not ever use one either, unless someone gives them to me (don't Dave) and I have absolutely ZERO interest in gaining first hand experience with them. And unless the folks who make them track me down and make me an offer I can't refuse, I'll not be having anything to do with them.

#3, Is soaking bad? Really? Bad enough to be avoided like the plague? I don't think so, and I think most folks who are convinced that 'no-soak' stones are essential and far better because of that have been reading too much and adopting the thoughts of others. There are very few stones that genuinely do not benefit from a soaking in some way, and all of them have that feature as a practical side effect/benefit, not a design point. If these stones do get some benefit from soaking, then they're not 'no-soak' at all...

#4, Because of #1, and because they're not available here in Japan, I must treat them as 'Ghosts' which are those things that do a big song and dance overseas, but are practically unknown in their country of origin. That does not, by definition, mean they're bad but I do have to wonder why a particular item might not be readily available where it's actually made...

(And by readily available I mean a Google search gets you a place to buy them in the first few hits and/or walking into a store and there's one there either in stock or not too far away. In other words, I wouldn't have to expend more than a token effort to get a hold of one, nor would anyone else actually living in Japan.)

So don't ask me about them. I don't know.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, no worries on #2, I'm not going to buy any of them. I have seen enough different stones to guess that they're being sold because they're different and nobody else already has exclusive rights to sell or distribute them in the US. I doubt you need any stones, either.

[Stuart Tierney]

Yeah, no worries on #2, I'm not going to buy any of them. I have seen enough different stones to guess that they're being sold because they're different and nobody else already has exclusive rights to sell or distribute them in the US. I doubt you need any stones, either.

I'd bet that's most likely the case myself, and can't fault LN at all for scrounging up a source of sharpening stones they think are good, they can get reliably and are not another "me too!" kind of deal.

But there's also very little 'new' when it comes to these things. Most are variations on one of several common themes, the makers simply tweaking and tuning the ingredients and processes to get what they think is the best balance of performance and balancing of compromises.

That balancing act doesn't always work out though...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

They don't state what the binder is. That's kind of important.

It would be nice if makers would state what the binder is in a given stone and what type of abrasive material there is in it. Most places aren't looking for buyers who actually want to know that stuff.

I had asked a seller a question at one point on a new private label stone "what is the binder, is it resin, magnesia, ...?". After making grandiose claims about the stone in their advertising stuff, they told me that was proprietary information. That's sort of like telling you that you can't know whether the car you're buying is four cylinder or six cylinder.

As time has gone by, more comments have gotten attached to the advertisement where folks have posted reviews and said, "The stone is not as _____ (hard, fast, ....) as the seller says, but it's an OK stone". Yeah, what a surprise. They're all OK stones, if one had a secret none of the others did, we'd know about it by now.

That's not related to LN here, just a general annoyance with all of the stones that come out and get sold as "the best I've ever seen", especially when that comes along with comments like "is super hard, never goes out of flat, cuts super fast and never glazes". Yeah, OK....is it diamond? No? Sounds like overselling. Most users will have only one or two sets of stones and will just believe it.

[David Weaver]

I'd bet that's most likely the case myself, and can't fault LN at all for scrounging up a source of sharpening stones they think are good, they can get reliably and are not another "me too!" kind of deal.

But there's also very little 'new' when it comes to these things. Most are variations on one of several common themes, the makers simply tweaking and tuning the ingredients and processes to get what they think is the best balance of performance and balancing of compromises.

That balancing act doesn't always work out though...

Stu.

I didn't so much mean "me too" kind of thing, but more like "I'm allowed to sell these", perhaps without having to go through a million profit reducing exchanges between manufacturer, exporter/importer/distributor, etc.

[Steve Friedman]

I tried them when I was at Lie-Nielsen last summer, but that was only a couple of weeks after getting my Sigmas from Stu, so I definitely have no comment on the stones. I do have three possible explanations for why Lie-Nielsen may have started to sell something like these stones. First, their showroom and their Hand Tool events are not set up for stones that need soaking. Second, I think they needed to sell something with more panache than the Nortons. Nortons may be fine, but it's Lie-Nielsen. Not sure why they stopped selling Shaptons, but when you're selling $500 planes, your client base demands something more exclusive than Nortons. Third, I think they needed to keep the cost of the stones reasonable. If a new customer thinks they need to spend $500 on sharpening stones, plane sales could suffer. I have seen new customers in the Lie-Nielsen showroom drop over $1,000 on their first Lie-Nielsen planes, but be unwilling to spend more than $99 for the "starter" sharpening set. I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to spend as much as many of use do on sharpening equipment, but I think Lie-Nielsen needed to sell some mid-priced, no-soak, sharpening stones that had some panache.

Just my opinion.

Steve

[David Weaver]

David Barnett suggested an ideal starter system for cheap last week. But it would . I don't know if there's anything to people demanding "more than nortons", but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right on (i'd have made the same demand if someone let me try a chosera or shapton 15k as a final step and then went to the norton 8k). It's like someone attributed the statement to leonard lee that people call lv and they claim this or that is out a thou when they're talking about flatness of the back of an iron, and they have no way of knowing. They know what they want, they just don't have any idea that they don't really know what they think they do. So you give people what they want regardless of whether or not it makes sense to someone who knows better. (we got rotary lapped backs out of that one, though, so who's to complain about that).

LN was selling the glasstones from shapton, weren't they? That awfully high priced set with the several hundred dollar diamond lapping plate that is almost optical flat but still wears out and needs to be replaced. For whatever reason, shapton pushed them above and beyond the stones that have three times as much abrasive media in them. Every shapton sold above board in the US goes through HMS enterprises (harrelson stanley). That cuts LN's take, first off, and second it means that if there is a supply issue (and from time to time, retailers have been just flat sold out of some shaptons in the US, just recently it was the 1k pro that was hard to find here), it's not like LN can go elsewhere. They just have to wait, screw around with back orders and listen to complaining customers. Harrelson has dropped the price of the pros on his website, but the glasstones in some cases have gotten even more nutty, in my opinion the whole price structure doesn't make any sense. But I'm glad the pros are cheaper now and still available. I got mine cheaply when they were expensive, but I had to hunt. shaptons claim that you couldn't use all of the abrasive in the pros was goofy, you can glue them to anything, even glass.

I'd rather LN had shapton pros, but whatever, i'm not in the market for the stones, anyway. I am a gentleman woodworker and a stone pig, but even I have my limits, and I think as far as stones go I've seen enough of them now. Famous last words.

[Tom Henderson2]

#3, Is soaking bad? Really? Bad enough to be avoided like the plague? I don't think so, and I think most folks who are convinced that 'no-soak' stones are essential and far better because of that have been reading too much and adopting the thoughts of others. There are very few stones that genuinely do not benefit from a soaking in some way, and all of them have that feature as a practical side effect/benefit, not a design point. If these stones do get some benefit from soaking, then they're not 'no-soak' at all...


The "no-soak" aspect is of interest to me because I don't have a sink near my woodworking area. No sink means lugging buckets of water around, and having a lot of mucky water to dispose of afterwards.

The only thing I found attractive about the Shaptons was the convenience; spritz & use, quick rubba-rubba with the flattener and good to go.

Even after a long day of frequent use at the LN handtool events, and the sharpening area was reasonably tidy. No buckets of water to deal with, very little mess.

Sometimes the real world intrudes on my woodworking and it can be a challenge to squeeze in an hour of woodworking hear or there. Being able to "just do it" when the opportunity arises without having to soak the stones would be nice.

Not a huge deal in and of itself, but a nice feature that I would benefit from having.

So that is the attraction to me; convenience, less mess, and the ability to focus more on the woodworking and less on the stones.

My $0.02

[Chris Griggs]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF35Dcb9qBs&feature=player_embedded

[Stuart Tierney]

I could dissect the video, and the stones, but one word sums it up.

Meh.

X2...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

It's my opinion that a natural stone user will probably prefer a no-soak type of stone. The one thing a hard non-porous stone does that can be undesirable is load on tougher steels (not A2, tougher than that). If you use natural stones, you'll already be used to dealing with this. If a tough steel loads the surface, you just slurry the stone and the surface stays clear.

I think stu has told us that shaptons have literature stating that a 10 minute soak is appropriate with the stones, but it makes them feel softer and release grit faster. I don't really like that. I'd rather slurry the stone, my choice.

I am the original whiner about cold water, too. My shop is unheated, halfway underground and I have mild arthritis. That's why I whine so much about it.

I remember stiction from the shaptons when I first got them. You learn to work with the stones pretty quickly and never experience it again. Most natural waterstones that are truly hard are much harder to use. I didn't know if maybe the shapton stones were less inclined to cause stiction once they're used a little bit, but I loaned one to Chris and he said right away that he was having some stiction issues. So it's you/me that changes as a user, and not the stone.

I got a king 8k from stu a couple of months ago for nostaliga. When he mailed it, he said "they have pretty nice new flashy packaging, but the stone in side is the same....crap". He's right, ceratainly a perfectly capable stone, but completely inferior to the shapton 15k and SP 13k as a finish stone. They are a full step up the ladder, one where you can forego stropping even on your finest edges.

[David Weaver]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF35Dcb9qBs&feature=player_embedded

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump. (I say separate and aside from this, because I have no reason to believe Steve is doing that, and I don't know anyone who has received LN stuff, they do a pretty good job of avoiding the forum culture). I've received other stuff, mostly stuff I've asked about, though.

There is a lot of traffic, especially on the power tool side of things, where bloggers claim to "review" tools, but they never have any reviews that lead you to believe any of the tools are unfit for use. And a lot of them are unclear about whether or not they received the tools for free, dodging the question by saying "no I don't get paid" and "look, I still work out of my garage", that kind of stuff. I thought there was a law passed not that long ago that required full disclosure of items received for free or receiving any other compensation when blogging about goods, but it appears to have had little effect. Any time I've commented on any of those blogs that the "reviews" sounded more like stealth ads, the folks running them have feigned offense. It's business. Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same.

(i'm not sure why I went into that...short on the coffee this morning, though).

[Charlie Stanford]

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump. (I say separate and aside from this, because I have no reason to believe Steve is doing that, and I don't know anyone who has received LN stuff, they do a pretty good job of avoiding the forum culture). I've received other stuff, mostly stuff I've asked about, though.

There is a lot of traffic, especially on the power tool side of things, where bloggers claim to "review" tools, but they never have any reviews that lead you to believe any of the tools are unfit for use. And a lot of them are unclear about whether or not they received the tools for free, dodging the question by saying "no I don't get paid" and "look, I still work out of my garage", that kind of stuff. I thought there was a law passed not that long ago that required full disclosure of items received for free or receiving any other compensation when blogging about goods, but it appears to have had little effect. Any time I've commented on any of those blogs that the "reviews" sounded more like stealth ads, the folks running them have feigned offense. It's business. Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same.

(i'm not sure why I went into that...short on the coffee this morning, though).

There seems to be a lot of brands and styles to keep up with. I guess this is a good thing.

And you're right - the internet is rife with this-thing-is better-than-sliced-bread "reviews." The pump indeed is being kept well primed. I like your phraseology.

Truth, if ever there was:

"Even if it's someone driving their ego and wanting to be the point person for beginners, etc, it's business. Not all compensation is money, but the risk of bias is the same."

[Chris Griggs]

This process is screaming for a grinder, but steve may have slowed it down for instructional purposes. I'm sorry to see that he got taken for a $180 ride with that diaflat (my opinion, of course - I purchased one of those and sent it to stu as part of our usual horse trading).

Separate and aside from Steve, If LN is savvy, they'll send a few of these stones to more vocal forum members, bloggers and magazine writers and all of the sudden, you'll see them being used and assume approval by association. When you are vocal and you have some exposure, you start getting things to "test", and not part of a back and forth sort of break-even kind of thing like stu and I do (sometimes it turns into a pissing contest, I think). It more of a "hey, we'll send you some tools and you get to keep them". Quite often they're the final iteration, so there is little purpose in asking someone to "test" the tools, it seems more to me like priming the pump.

Yeah that's how I felt (about the grinder), but you and I are so pro hollow grind, 2-stone method and the convex bevel folks seem super into the no grinder thing, so we'll probably have to agree to disagree with other folks about that. I also felt (and this is not intended as a slight towards Steve), that the edge of the 10k could have been better...you should be able to push cut paper at lower grits than that. Not that every edge I hone is perfect (mine are often sub par), and I'm sure doing a video demo adds difficulty. Again, not intended as a critisim of Steve, more of a general point of knowledge, that if one can't push cut paper off of a say a 4-6k stone, with nothing more than a few swipes of the palm, than they're probably not getting the most out of that stone...not that its a requirement, but useful info for those who want to get the most out of their stones.

[David Weaver]

The only time I've ever not disclosed something that I got for free or as part of trading is if I am badmouthing it relative to something I did pay for. I think that's pretty self explanatory, and it makes me look rude (I probably am).

There are a lot of things floating around out there, 3x what there would need to be, I guess. At least at this point most of it is good, and at least there is enough so that you can find people who *will* tell you what's in their wares, so you can avoid the ones who say "it's proprietary, best I've ever used...best, best, best, but I can't tell you why or do a relative comparison to anything else for you, I'm sure mine's better, besides it costs twice as much, so it must be, and it was developed for my specs and I'm an expert, and if the test said it wasn't better after I ran it, the test method would just be wrong, anyway".

[Augusto Orosco]

The "no-soak" aspect is of interest to me because I don't have a sink near my woodworking area. No sink means lugging buckets of water around, and having a lot of mucky water to dispose of afterwards.

The only thing I found attractive about the Shaptons was the convenience; spritz & use, quick rubba-rubba with the flattener and good to go.

Even after a long day of frequent use at the LN handtool events, and the sharpening area was reasonably tidy. No buckets of water to deal with, very little mess.

Sometimes the real world intrudes on my woodworking and it can be a challenge to squeeze in an hour of woodworking hear or there. Being able to "just do it" when the opportunity arises without having to soak the stones would be nice.

Not a huge deal in and of itself, but a nice feature that I would benefit from having.

So that is the attraction to me; convenience, less mess, and the ability to focus more on the woodworking and less on the stones.

My $0.02

That's pretty much how I feel about soaking, too. I don't mind the soaking itself and waiting a couple of minutes for the stones to absorb water. It is the inconvenience of having to lug water back and forth a flight of stairs and dispose of the gritty water. It's by no means a deal breaker, but a nice feature to have. With the prices David found on the Shaptons (contrary to my expensive finds at Amazon), I would be more inclined to get Shaptons over the Ohishi's, just because it's a known commodity of good quality. And David is also right about Stu's joint (I just checked): His is the cheapest source (that I can find) if you buy 2 or more from him. The break in price more than pays for the added shipping.

[RDave Evans]

These stones have been out for a few more years now, anyone have any opinions, good or bad, to add?

[Ray Bohn]

I have 1000, 3000, 8000. In my experience, the 8000 seems to dry out very quickly. I asked LN if it would be OK to soak this stone. I don't remember their exact reply, but it left the impression that anymore than a few minutes soak would not be recommended.

My experience with the 8000 may be due to the fact that I am a casual woodworker and the stone has ample time to fully dry out between uses.

[Patrick Chase]

I have 1000, 3000, 8000. In my experience, the 8000 seems to dry out very quickly. I asked LN if it would be OK to soak this stone. I don't remember their exact reply, but it left the impression that anymore than a few minutes soak would not be recommended.

My experience with the 8000 may be due to the fact that I am a casual woodworker and the stone has ample time to fully dry out between uses.

The Ohishis are resinoid, meaning that they consist of a plastic resin binder mixed with abrasive. The resin binder is (mostly) impermeable to water, so the stone never gets wet below the surface to begin with. They realistically can't be drying out on you. You can't soak more than a few minutes because prolonged water exposure softens/weakens the surface layer of the plastic resin. Shaptons are also resinoid and have the same limitation.

[Mike Walsh]

I've had the 1000, 6000, 10000 for a few years now and like them very much. The 10K dries out faster than the other 2 so requires a little extra "spritzing"

[Malcolm Schweizer]

A video of Steve Branam using them. Hard to tell a lot about them from the video, but it may be of interest to the stoners.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF35Dcb9qBs&feature=player_embedded


"Stoners..." I love it! I am absolutely stealing that.

As as for the video, he just proved why I say you need an intermediate stone between your medium (1k) and ultra fine (10k). That chisel needed a LOT more time on the 10k or other grits in-between. That said, the video did also show the importance of stropping. In the end it was sharp enough.

I saw the stones at the Handworks event and regretfully I didn't get to try them. Beware of overthink in the area of sharpening. If in the end you get a sharp edge that cuts well, then it was good enough; perhaps not ideal, or maybe it took too much time and/or effort, but it worked. <----- Hypocritical statement from a guy who obsesses on sharpening, by the way, but in the end if it worked it worked. Refer to the previous paragraph. I believe he could have gotten it a lot sharper, but in the end it worked. Perhaps it could have worked better, but it did the job well enough.

I have Chosera, Shapton, and Norton. All do the job. I really like the Shapton Glass for a value price and a great stone that does not need soaking. Usually I will keep the Choseras in the sharpening room by the sink for sharpening before and after use, and the Shaptons by the bench for touch-ups.

[Patrick Chase]

On a related note: My understanding is that L-N started distributing "Ohishi" (not the real brand name by many accounts) because they stopped doing business with Harrelson Stanley (a.k.a. "Shapton USA"), who was the sole US distributor for Shapton at the time.

Shapton now has new distribution in the US, so it will be interesting to see what L-N does going forward.

I've seen claims that the "house brand" resinoid stones (http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/46) distributed by "Metal Master" are sourced from the same manufacturer as Ohishi and may be the same. I have the MM 10K and I've used the Ohishi 10K, and they're very similar in terms of scratch pattern and texture/feel. Beyond that I have no direct information.

[Jim Koepke]

I've seen claims that the "house brand" resinoid stones distributed by "Metal Master" are sourced from the same manufacturer as Ohishi and may be the same. I have the MM 10K and I've used the Ohishi 10K, and they're very similar in terms of scratch pattern and texture/feel. Beyond that I have no direct information.

With all of these different makers marching to their own specs, how does one know if this 10K is any finer a medium than another maker's 8K?

To the best of my knowledge my 8K Norton stone has 3µ abrasive particles. I am sure smaller particles would make a slightly sharper edge, but is it really worth it? My skill level seems to do fine with 3µ. It doesn't seem getting sharper would really improve much other than my ego.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

With all of these different makers marching to their own specs, how does one know if this 10K is any finer a medium than another maker's 8K?

To the best of my knowledge my 8K Norton stone has 3µ abrasive particles. I am sure smaller particles would make a slightly sharper edge, but is it really worth it? My skill level seems to do fine with 3µ. It doesn't seem getting sharper would really improve much other than my ego.

jtk

As you say, you have to look past the rated grit # and use the abrasive particle size as a guide (but don't treat it as Gospel). Most manufacturers either state that outright, or state what standard they comply to (i.e. JIS-1998, etc). Neither Ohishi nor MM state their abrasive size AFAIK, so in cases like that you're basically trusting the vendor.

The binder and abrasive used further modify the "harshness" of the sharpening medium. I would never use the edge resulting from a 3 um diamond paste, but as you say there are 3 um waterstones that leave perfectly reasonable results. It's possible that your Norton may use a somewhat frangible abrasive (Norton was one of the pioneers of such abrasives), such that the "highest" particles tend to break down and leave a somewhat smoother sharpening surface than the particle size suggests. That sort of thing can only modify the surface quality within a relatively narrow band (nothing can make a 100 um particle leave a clean edge for example), but it could explain the difference in this case.

Bottom line: As you say, the results are what matters. Things like abrasive particle size are a useful but imprecise guide to help us get to the results we want. Grit # is basically useless IMO unless you know what standard is being used (JIS, CAMI, FEPA, etc)