Another "cabinet grade" plywood question

[Mark W Pugh]

OK, let's say that the Borgs are the only game in town, is there any decent cabinet grade plywood from these places? Is Columbia still a good choice? Special order even a cost option? If there are no good options from these places, just say so.

I have read, and read, and reread, still there are so many opinions. I haven't went to a local cabinet shop yet, if I can find one, and ask them. So disregarding that, what do you guys think? I really hate the warped plywood after a couple of days thing!

Thanks

I will get something, just to build some shop cabinets. Honing my skills for another project.

[Prashun Patel]

I've built a few items from BORG ply, oak, maple, birch, and 'cabinet grade' which is Birch - good one side.

I have NOT had it delaminate or perform badly. Expect a couple voids.

I mail ordered from Baird Brothers (they're in OH, and I'm in NJ). They were SO worth it in terms of quality, selection, service, and packaging. Looks like they're a straight shot about 2.5hr north of you on 77. FWIW, they have a great selection of moldings (presanded well up to 180) and can even prefinish. Do I sound like a commercial?

[Todd Burch]

The concerns with ply are several.

Primarily, the thinness of the outer veneers. They are REALLY thin, which requires really "tooling up" to work with them successfully.

When selecting the sheets, you can visually inspect for voids along the edges. If you see numerous voids, take it for fact that the voids are consistently as heavy throughout the sheet, not just the edges.

Look at the edge voids. If the edge voids are filled, that would even leave me more suspect of the quality - at this point (if they are filled) - they are trying to hide things.

Look at how interior veneer pieces on the same layer are put together. Are they overlapping and pressed and sanded smooth, or are they cut to edge butt?

Cost. I've found that a similar quality ply (low) at my regular supplier (I understand you don't have one) are a lot cheaper than the borg.

If you buy the sheet, cut it and use it, and don't let it sit around. If it sits around, stored properly, and warps, take it back. If it warps when you cut it, take it back.

Have I used it? Yes, several times. Why? I didn't have the time to go get it from my normal supplier.

I have gotten some good stuff - I bought several sheets of some birch ply a few years back, primarily because the "backs" were very good quality quarter sawn flitch matched red oak on some and birdseye maple on the others. ;)

[Mark W Pugh]

Thanks. I will check them out. 2.5 hours is nuttin.


I've built a few items from BORG ply, oak, maple, birch, and 'cabinet grade' which is Birch - good one side.

I have NOT had it delaminate or perform badly. Expect a couple voids.

I mail ordered from Baird Brothers (they're in OH, and I'm in NJ). They were SO worth it in terms of quality, selection, service, and packaging. Looks like they're a straight shot about 2.5hr north of you on 77. FWIW, they have a great selection of moldings (presanded well up to 180) and can even prefinish. Do I sound like a commercial?

[Jeff Monson]

I've used BORG plywood for furniture and cabinets. It seems to me that the quality has deteriorated more the last year than ever. The last 3/4 oak plywood I got from Menards was horrible, full of voids, the outer veneer was paper thin at best. I have now switched to a local lumberyard, the quality is far better, I just bite the bullet and pay the extra money.

[George Bokros]

Baird Bros is top notch. I was just there yesterday for some crown molding. I have bought ply from them in the past and it was top notch. I asked their plywood yesterday because I was curious, they make the plywood they sell. Yesterday I also bought some 3/4 x 1 1/2 S$S red oak at $0.78 / lf compared to Lowes at $1.01 / lf. Go figure.

Give them a try you won't be disappointed.

George

[Mark Bolton]

I can say that in our experience Columbia pure bond is a decent product. The other junk they (HD) sell I can't give you a word on because I simply won't buy it. The problem we have with Columbia is in out area HD is the only distributor (its a sin to have to refer to a box store as that but it is what it is). For this reason it's kind of a branch by branch roll of the dice as to how "decent" they would be on special orders. I wouldn't even bother trying for customs. I had another shop tell me a branch far from our shop was looking like they may have been able to compete on items they don't stock. This should be simple with they're buying power but when you get a branch that simply won't deviate from a pricing formula regardless of trade volume, and so on, your dead.

I've always been happy with purebond but its not available in our location in anything more than 2-3 items, 1/2 & 3/4 plain birch, and 1/2 red oak. No maple, no prefinished, no...

[John TenEyck]

I also get Columbia Purebond at my local HD. 3/4" maple and birch, and also 1/2" birch. Just bought some yesterday actually; had to sort through a few sheets but the ones I got had a nice veneer match with no voids, and were nice and flat. Moisture content was 6%, same as my shop. Columbia Purebond is much better than the Chinese junk now at my local full service lumberyard. That stuff has veneer you can see through, is so thin it's a crime to call it 3/4" or 1/2", and loves to warp and twist. Oh, and they charge something like $55/sheet - I paid $37/sheet at HD for 3/4" maple. Curiously, the 1/2" maple cost $39.

John

[Peter Quinn]

I can't speak for your local Borg, mine, there is nothing there I would honestly call "cabinet grade". There is maybe some sub shop grade stuff with some hardwood content posing as cabinet grade material, but mostly its inferior. A few bucks cheaper than the local woodworking supply yard, but infinitely less quality. Oh, sure, its the same "Columbia Pure Bond" brand at both locations. But the Borg's has NO GRADE STAMP. NONE. Rejects, didn't make grade, or special no standards borg run? Either way, its loaded with problems. Voids, delaminations, wet sheets that go wild when cut. The local cabinet supply yard, every sheet is stamped. C-2, A-1, AA, etc. Every sheet. And the sheets make grade. Its not that I don't love going to the store, clearing out the van, going down the aisle, sorting through a pile of junk and rejects that every guy in the local area has abused to find something passable, lugging it to the register on a rolling cart, lugging it to my car, getting it home, having it fail, lugging it back, dragging it back to CS to have a manager tell me how sorry they are and offering to let me go pick another maybe more acceptable sheet form the pile I have already sorted. I do love all of that.:rolleyes: At the lumber yard, I back in right up to the plywood rack through a garage door, they help me throw the sheets into my van...no sorting, every sheet is good, with the A-1 its often sequence matched, so you have to buy it in order for it to match. I gladly drive 10 miles further and pay $10 more per sheet for the pleasure.

I'm in the densely populated North East where I can get to 3 decent yards within 30 minutes and a bunch more a bit further out, I'm sure its not that easy everywhere, but its worth trying to develop a source you can trust and a means of getting material. Road trip? Mail order? Club buy? Stock up every few months? Not sure what works in your area, but I'd start by doing a search, asking local pro's where they shop? I'm pretty sure its not the borg.

[Mark Bolton]

I gladly drive 10 miles further and pay $10 more per sheet for the pleasure.

I'm in the densely populated North East where I can get to 3 decent yards within 30 minutes and a bunch more a bit further out, I'm sure its not that easy everywhere, but its worth trying to develop a source you can trust and a means of getting material. Road trip? Mail order? Club buy? Stock up every few months? Not sure what works in your area, but I'd start by doing a search, asking local pro's where they shop? I'm pretty sure its not the borg.

Peter,
Those are unfortunately all the things I miss from up there. It seems in many locations (mine included) its far from that easy. Any type of regular "road trip" would put any form of modest or reasonably priced work for profit in the red before the first board was cut. Trucking after material is just a losing proposition at least for me in my little shop but around here were talking 3-4 hours one way. Went through a dry spell last year when we had no distribution delivering to our shop door. None. In more rural areas DOT regulations have trucking to where if the suppliers cant make the loop (and make it profitably) in the 12 hours its just not going to happen.

I doubt much will change in the more populated/metro areas but I can only guess supply chains will be stretched in the more rural areas. Ive mentioned before, thankfully we currently have a good supply of a variety of domestic sheet goods from a single supplier that will ship to the shop door. If that option vaporizes Im sure we would have to rethink the products we make because there is simply no way I could be profitable as a business running a truck over the road to pick up enough materials and keep and foresee needed inventory.

I understand a lot pertains to small or hobby shops needing a sheet, two or six. But as the OP suggested, "lets say the borg is the only option". This could be the case in many areas, and was for us for a short time. Thankfully I only had to grab a half dozen sheets for some carcass' and honestly never even looked at the grade stamp. Something to look at for sure. I'd hate to be forced with that being the only choice other than some exorbitant trucking fee or somehow trying to make a full or full-enough load for delivery. I just dont think most average markets would bear it.

[phil harold]

Call these places if they cant help you they can steer you in the right direction
Inland Wood Products
Taylors Hardwood
Ohio Hardwood & Plywood

[Mark Bolton]

As it pertains to my location one of those in the list we tried to work with but didn't come to our area. They would consider it for large loads/full units with a haul bill. I thought Inland was a pallet shop owned by a bigger hardwood company? Never heard of Taylor.

All information is good information.

[glenn bradley]

Seems like there are a few options within a dozen miles. Have you found Carter (they carry Arauco ply) to be unacceptable to work with? I understand lumber yards can have personalities as well as supply issues. The yard a few miles from me is the red-headed step-child of the parent yard down in Orange County. They don't seem to get the quality cuts that the main yard does so I drive to another outfit in San Marcos (Saroyan, about an hour down the road).

There is yet another yard a block away from Saroyan. The attitudes from the folks there put them on the "ain't gettin' my money" list so, I can understand if you are looking for someone else outside your area; that's how I found Saroyan. I will add that misbehavior in sheetgoods can be partially blamed on storage method. Flat with weight on it is optimal but, few of us can dedicate that space. Mine stands on a raised platform to allow air movement and is held tight to a flat wall. Even gaps of an inch or so can invite bows. Good luck and be sure to share any success stories. Others in your area may be fighting the same fight ;-)

[Brian Tymchak]

Thanks. I will check them out. 2.5 hours is nuttin.

Mark,

If you're OK for a 2.5 hr drive, then how about a bit shorter drive up Rt 33 to the east side of Columbus (Gahanna actually)? Woodwerks (http://www.woodwerks.com/) has excellent veneer-core plywood. My experience is that it stays flatter than any of the Baltic Birch I've bought.

And I think I saw a flyer in my mail about a sale coming up this weekend. So you might be able to get 15% off. Always a good thing..

[Rich Engelhardt]

Have you found Carter (they carry Arauco ply) to be unacceptable to work with?I'll never go to Carter again unless they change their attitude/policy.....but...since I refuse to go there, I guess I'll never know if they have or not.

I needed a dozen or so 2x4's so I stopped at Carter since it was just down the road & handy.
The policy at the time was you stayed in your vehicle while they loaded you and no returns on any materials.
They claimed the policy of staying in the vehicle (so you couldn't sort through to pile) was for insurance reasons.
The no returns policy was simply because at the time, Carter was the only game in town & they could get away with it.

The 2x4's I got were obviously ones that had been culled from the regular stock.

Some time later, again, simply because it was Carter or nothing, I had to pick up some 1/2" drywall.
Same story - every piece had some kind of damage and each sheet was single - not taped together like drywall normally is - which indicated to me it had also been culled from the regular stock.

That Carter store struggled to stay afloat after the Borgs moved into town, but, they had built up such a bad reputation they closed up.
I wasn't unhappy at all to see them close.
Good riddance.

[Brian Tymchak]

Mark,

If you're OK for a 2.5 hr drive, then how about a bit shorter drive up Rt 33 to the east side of Columbus (Gahanna actually)? Woodwerks (http://www.woodwerks.com/)has excellent veneer-core plywood. My experience is that it stays flatter than any of the Baltic Birch I've bought.

And I think I saw a flyer in my mail about a sale coming up this weekend. So you might be able to get 15% off. Always a good thing..

I checked last night and the flyer I was remembering was from Woodcraft. Have you tried Woodcraft yet? You have one in Parkersburg (http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/store.aspx?id=301), out on Emerson Avenue. In fact that's the anchor store of the chain. I believe the Woodcraft here in Columbus carries plywood. I'm not sure if they all do or not. I've not purchased ply there so I can't comment on quality, but if you haven't checked them out yet, it might save you some drive time.

[Mark Bolton]

they had built up such a bad reputation they closed up.

Wow, Ive heard some doozy's but they took it to a whole different level. Having been around the lumber business most of my adult life I can somewhat understand lumberyards getting a little cranky when someone building a shed or a dog house sorts through #2 SPF looking for the 40 pristine boards out of a full unit or even worse goes through one and asks them to break open another. Ive seen it happen and heard of it many times not understanding why after a third of a unit the yard doesnt just refund the customers money and escort them off the property. There has to be a balance.

Cant blame you there though, the drywall in singles just invites damage even if they weren't culls, No wonder they went out. There is a Carter up in Ripley that I have heard good things about but never dealt with.

As far as cabinet ply from any of these places locally, the problem is they simply back door it in in small quantities so first off they in themselves arent able to get a decent price on the material to begin with, then when they turn it around to the customer tacking on their percentage the price gets out of sight. The smaller yards are usually accustomed to making short margins on these small orders (I can only guess some are and some arent) but even so it generally puts the price through the roof. After that, often times the material has been handled/transferred, moved, so many times its a little worse for the wear.

Several years back I tried pricing this material through one very large national yard (not a box store) and a smaller, but still multi-branch yard, and they couldnt even come close to competing on price and the availability of domestics was zero.

I am in central WV about an hour north of the capitol. It sounds like there may be some here that are reasonably close. Our distributor runs weekly and I have offered to some other shops off the beaten path to bring their material in here if it helps them out. If anyone is following this thread is in the area they can PM me. If we can work something out it helps everyone.