legal help in pennsylvania recovering losses from fraud from wood dealer

[al ladd]

I've lost over $2500 from a (retired) wood dealer who misrepresented the quantity of material he was offering. I have detailed documentation that makes for a clear, compelling case. (The heart of his position is that our deal was never about weight --only about unspecified mass represented by photos. I have email and voicemail where he states the price per pound he wanted.....). Anyway, I"m wondering if anyone out there can tell me about small claims process in Pa. He's in Luzerne County, I'm in Massachusetts.Do I have to go there to file suit? Any lawyer woodworkers out there interested in working for some ebony and the principle? Thanks!

[curtis rosche]

Something sounds fishy..

[Brian Elfert]

Who buys or sell wood by weight? Moisture content alone could change weight of wood quite a bit.

[al ladd]

Something sounds fishy..
Nothing fishy on my end, but being ripped off does stink. I was hoping someone here had experience with PA small claims court, maybe even a lawyer willing to help some. I'd know how to handle this if the offending merchant was from MA. If I could solve this problem by building a jig I'd have done it myself.....

[al ladd]

The purchase was for thousands of pounds of ebony, mostly trimmings from years of preparing cants. Ebony in irregular (non-square edge boards) is regularly sold by weight. The wood was milled over ten years ago, so moisture content was predictable.......

[Dan Hintz]

Who buys or sell wood by weight? Moisture content alone could change weight of wood quite a bit.
Burls are typically sold by weight (and generally green from the tree, too). Even if it has dried for years, the price is usually set by the cut weight.


I've lost over $2500 from a (retired) wood dealer who misrepresented the quantity of material he was offering. I have detailed documentation that makes for a clear, compelling case. (The heart of his position is that our deal was never about weight --only about unspecified mass represented by photos. I have email and voicemail where he states the price per pound he wanted.....). Anyway, I"m wondering if anyone out there can tell me about small claims process in Pa. He's in Luzerne County, I'm in Massachusetts.Do I have to go there to file suit? Any lawyer woodworkers out there interested in working for some ebony and the principle? Thanks!
I'm no lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night (and I've been through the process a time or three), so I'll offer my opinion...

I believe you are required (at least in this case) to make a claim in his jurisdiction (Luzerne County), but you don't have to be there to start the process (all done through the mail or over the net). If the court system there specifies arbitration first, then you will have to travel for that before you ever see a courtroom.

Everything will come down to the contract... how well it was written, and how easy it is to match it up to reality. You left out what your real problem with the deal was (other than to saw you got the short end of the stick), so I'll only provide examples and suggestions. If the contract says you paid by weight, then it's cut and dry (no pun intended)... 500 pounds of wood X at price $Y/pound is easy to calculate. If you paid more than the poundage of wood you received, there's a shortfall he needs to account for in his price. Emails and voicemails are great evidence, especially if they corroborate each other.

But be careful... if the shortfall was a few hundred dollars, you'll pay nearly that in fees to get the whole thing going (not to mention travel). If the shortfall was the $2,500 you mentioned, then it may be worthwhile... BUT, just because you win doesn't mean you automatically get what the judgment is for. Collecting is a royal pain and could net you nothing. If the amount is large enough, you can ask the judge for an "award of cost", which will pay for your lawsuit fees, potentially collection fees, etc. If you do your research ahead of time and really want this guy to pay up, you can also place a lien on his property if the judgment is successful... tell him that in court to let him know you're serious about collecting and will cause him all kinds of pain for years until he pays up.

Also, many jurisdictions do not tell you the judge's decision until a week or two after the case is heard... prevents hasty (violent) actions in the courtroom.

YMMV...

[Larry Browning]

Just curious, why is that you are asking here, rather than finding a local lawyer who can actually help you with this? If you are truly serious about filing a law suit against this guy that is by far your best option. Sure, it will cost you a bit, but you can probably have the fee added to the claim. That's where I would start.

[Jerome Stanek]

I know here in Ohio for small claims court even if you win you have the responsibility of collecting yourself. It is hard to get someone to pay if they just say no. there are a few things you can do but most of the time they won't work. My son just went through this with a claim and the party wasn't going to pay. She had her lawyer and that actually helped him as the lawyer was her rep she was not allowed to present any evidence herself and the day on the day for the appeal.

[David Weaver]

I'd do small claims and get the judgement just so I could run an ad in the local paper telling everyone the guy is a crook.

As far as getting net money back worth your time if it's just a few thousand dollars, you'll be out of luck unless the person is otherwise honest.

[Steve Friedman]

Al,

Small claims process in PA is very user friendly, but (as mentioned above) getting a judgment is the easy part. Collecting the judgment is the hard part. If the guy owns real estate (not owned jointly with his wife), you will get paid if the house is ever sold. Otherwise, you will need to execute on the judgment, which requires you to find assets the guy owns and then levy on those assets. That takes time, expertise, and costs money.

The more effective way to proceed may be to file a complaint with the PA Attorney General Consumer Fraud Division. It's free and easy and, hopefully, will compel the guy to come clean. Just a thought.

I would be happy to help, but I am far from Luzerne County and haven't done that kind of work in more than 30 years.

Good luck,

Steve

[Erik Loza]

...My son just went through this with a claim and the party wasn't going to pay...

My wife and I are going through a similar situation now. Contractor did sub-par work on our house, had to pay a second one about $3K to come out and complete the repairs properly. I could take him to small claims court and win, but who has time to go chasing other people around for $3K? Yes, it sucks but we are both busy people and have "life" to get on with. It's not for me to tell anyone what to do but we just made the decision to chalk it up to "lessons learned about hiring contractors" and get on with life.

Best of luck to you, whatever the outcome.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jerome Stanek]

In Ohio if something is sold by weight it must weigh that much at the time of sales. Not sure how PA handles these kind of sales. You may want to check with the county to see who handles their weights and measure and file a report.

[Greg R Bradley]

I'm familiar with Small Claims in 3 states at the other end of the country. Based on that and other info, I would assume no Small Claims Court allows an attorney to represent an individual. Most attorneys are not familiar with the rules of Small Claims Court.

Hiring an attorney for a real civil case is impossible for that amount of money. It is typically not practical for ten times that amount.

You would typically need to know the jurisdiction of the claim. If he shipped it common carrier, the transaction legally happened at his location. Even if his non common carrier agent delivered it to you, Small Claims normally will not make a defendant travel several hundred miles. They might allow appearance by telephone - really depends on the rule of the court. Some Small Claims court have people that will help with the claim. Some Paralegal Services are familiar and will help but I would be really careful with that.

Like anything regarding legal work, the above is all some opinions that probably leave you with some possible answers and more questions than you had before you read it.

[David Weaver]

In PA, you can have an attorney represent you in small claims court.

[Jerome Stanek]

In Ohio you can have an attorney represent you and that worked in my sons case as he was trying to recover money from a returned item. The lady he filed against had an attorney and the last day of the period to dispute the award the lady went to the court house and tried to dispute it but was told that she had to have the attorney file for her as her attorney represented her and they asked her to leave. My son had to go after her bank account to recover his money. Boy was she PO and started blogging about him and saying that he was illegally accessing her account. She saw someone checking her account 2 months after my son got his money and that is what she was mad about but it was the state that was checking for unpaid taxes over the sale.

[Greg R Bradley]

That is interesting that the states have such different ideas. A friend that is a Small Claims Commisioner explained to me that the entire idea of Small Claims is that neither individual can have an attorney which keeps the cost down. If one side can have an attorney, then the other side might be tempted. They purposely don't give an advantage to someone that knows great detail about legal procedures, legal code, and precedent.

[Dan Hintz]

They purposely don't give an advantage to someone that knows great detail about legal procedures, legal code, and precedent.

That sounds like a really bad reason to have a "people's court"... you likely know very little about the law, so it's a fair fight because both people are ignorant.

A more proper reason would be the legal maneuvers available to attorneys are not available in that particular venue, as well as expedience (the entire case is tried and decided on the same day).

[Steve Meliza]

It sounds to me like the seller guestimated the weight of a pile of valuable wood and a price per guestimated pound was arrived at. The wood arrived and when weighed after the purchase it was found to be less than the guestimate. If the buyer and seller agreed to a fixed price for a pile of wood then it was a fair deal regardless of how the value of the stack of wood was arrived at. Guess you'll weigh it next time huh?

[Jim Matthews]

Do I correctly understand that you did receive some of the product?

[David Weaver]

That is interesting that the states have such different ideas. A friend that is a Small Claims Commisioner explained to me that the entire idea of Small Claims is that neither individual can have an attorney which keeps the cost down. If one side can have an attorney, then the other side might be tempted. They purposely don't give an advantage to someone that knows great detail about legal procedures, legal code, and precedent.

I believe that's somewhat covered by arbitration in PA. I don't know what's allowed in small claims here other than a lawyer is allowed. I am sure that there are people who are too inept to represent themselves, but that shouldn't prevent them from receiving remuneration if someone else causes them ills. I think I'd rather there be lawyers allowed with a streamlined process. Where involved parties don't have reasonable information excluded just because they aren't privy to having done the process 150 times before.

[Jerome Stanek]

In Ohio if you use a lawyer in small claims court that comes out of your pocket even if you win the only costs tou get are the court costs.

[David Weaver]

In Ohio if you use a lawyer in small claims court that comes out of your pocket even if you win the only costs tou get are the court costs.

I think that's fair, too, in the spirit of small claims.

I looked earlier yesterday to confirm that you could take a lawyer (pretty much anything around here, you can, that may be because of the influence of the PA bar), because several folks used lawyers even at the county level for home reassessment defense (the school district solicitors here LOVE to take everyone to the assessment board to try to get your assessment reset to the sale price of a house, so that they can justify their retainer when they don't have anything better to do. If you beat the solicitor, then the solicitor will appeal it and make you go to the county courthouse again, I learned that from experience. They'll waste your time because they're on retainer and they don't care)

This is an attorney laden state with laws that make it favorable for law firms, and not for the betterment of anything that I can tell. For example, if you have legal staff (JDs) at a consulting firm, they cannot practice law or provide legal advice even if they're attornies. They must work at a business that is classified as a law firm. Why their advice would be any different either way is beyond me. It'd be like telling a doctor they couldn't write a prescription if they stepped through a magic door and weren't writing from an approved place.

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised to see an attorney in small claims for the defendant if it's worth more than $500.

[Jerome Stanek]

When my son went I was a witness and it was a contract claim where there was no contract and he was awarded $2695. $2500 for the claim and $195 for the court costs and filings and paperwork. The lady was selling stuff without a venders license. After the court awarded him the money and he ended up garnishing her bank account the state went after her for unpaid taxes. She had about $50,000.00 in sales up till that time with no income reported.

[David Weaver]

If you're going to do stuff under the table, you'd better make sure your customers are happy!

[glenn bradley]

It will be interesting to hear how this plays out. Ebony is also sold by the pound around here in any quantities above turning billets. The amount of loss stated is well under 30 pounds of material at my local prices. When weighed against the "thousands of pounds" involved it would be very hard to pin down. Or, if the price were incredibly good (and therefor the quantity greater), the discrepancy could probably be seen as a wash in the size of the bargain. Either way, $2500 ain't chicken feed and having seen some shortcomings of our judicial system a time of two, I am always interested in the outcome of the pursuit for fairness.

[Wade Lippman]

You can't use scc to sue anyone out of state, so you would have to file where he is.
In NYS the courts don't have to follow the law, but are free to do what they think is fair. That could help or hurt you; I didn't really follow your explanation of the problem.

As others have said, you have to somehow collect even if you win. Out of state that might be really hard.
I have sued three times and been lucky; all three simply paid me. A fourth paid me as soon as he was served.
However, I don't think I would bother it if were 500 miles away.

[Scott T Smith]

I've lost over $2500 from a (retired) wood dealer who misrepresented the quantity of material he was offering. I have detailed documentation that makes for a clear, compelling case. (The heart of his position is that our deal was never about weight --only about unspecified mass represented by photos. I have email and voicemail where he states the price per pound he wanted.....). Anyway, I"m wondering if anyone out there can tell me about small claims process in Pa. He's in Luzerne County, I'm in Massachusetts.Do I have to go there to file suit? Any lawyer woodworkers out there interested in working for some ebony and the principle? Thanks!

Al, it sounds like you may have a fairly solid case.

Jurisdiction is usually decided based upon which state the sale was completed in. Case law has gone both ways regarding internet sales; if he advertised the wood for sale in a national publication then you may have a good case for filing in MA.

If I were you, I would first speak with my MA attorney to ask them to offer advise as to which state would have jurisdiction, as well as reviewing the strength of your claim. Remember, in court it's not about who is right, it' is about who can prove that they have been damaged by illegal activity.

Often times you can settle out of court by simply having an attorney draft a letter to the defendant, showing him the strength of your claim. Additionally, this puts the defendant on notice that you are going to be proceeding against him in court, and he will have much more out of pocket than $2,500.00

For the few hundred bucks to have an attorney review your case and draft a letter, you may be able to resolve this quickly and net out with 90% of your loss.

[Jerome Stanek]

Al, it sounds like you may have a fairly solid case.

Jurisdiction is usually decided based upon which state the sale was completed in. Case law has gone both ways regarding internet sales; if he advertised the wood for sale in a national publication then you may have a good case for filing in MA.

If I were you, I would first speak with my MA attorney to ask them to offer advise as to which state would have jurisdiction, as well as reviewing the strength of your claim. Remember, in court it's not about who is right, it' is about who can prove that they have been damaged by illegal activity.

Often times you can settle out of court by simply having an attorney draft a letter to the defendant, showing him the strength of your claim. Additionally, this puts the defendant on notice that you are going to be proceeding against him in court, and he will have much more out of pocket than $2,500.00

For the few hundred bucks to have an attorney review your case and draft a letter, you may be able to resolve this quickly and net out with 90% of your loss.

And for a few hundred dollars you may find out you have no case.

[al ladd]

Thanks for all the various opinions. I think woodworkers have more real world experience about most things than the general population, and I thought being about a lumber purchase from one of the last of the dying breed of professional small craft woodworkers, I might garner some sympathy here.
It's a crazy story:
1.I email him and tell him I was interested in a pallet of ebony, responding to a listing he posted on Woodweb. I recognized him as the guy I had bought 1000 pounds of reject cants from about ten years ago at a dollar a pound, which worked out well for me.
2.He says that pallet was sold, but has more and emails me photos of two large crates with text added with dimensions, and a weight, with the weight crossed out but still legible , and of a pile of cants, and of an array of about 30 BF of boards.
3. I email him and tell him I think I could use all he shows in pics, depending on price, between 1000 and 4000 pounds of material.
3.He calls me and offers to sell it all for $1.50 a pound,saying he doesn't have a large scale and so doesn't know what it weighs, but will get back to me about that.Before hanging up he says he can sell me all the material for $1.10 a pound. Shortly afterwards he sends email and leaves voice mail (I'd stepped out of the house):
Hi Al. We just spoke a few minutes ago and I offered to drop the price from $1.50 to $1.10. this was a mistake on my part. I ment to say " i will drop the price by $.10
to $1.40. Sorry for the mistake! Can ship all ebony in photo's i sent you for $650.00

4.I email and tell him I'll take as much as he can give me for $5000, preferably all.
5.He (claims) to send an email offer to sell all for $6350 delivered, which I never receive. He sends me a copy of this later, after the dispute arises.I think he probably mistakenly never sent the email, a mistake I've made many times.
6.He calls and tells me he has 5400 pounds, and encourages me to make an offer.(So he's expecting an offer of between $5000 and $6350)
7.I call back and offer $8000 for all, delivered, explaining to him that $1.40 x 5400 pounds comes out to $7560, plus $650 for shipping, rounded down to 8K.
8.He accepts, and ships me 3350 pounds of ebony, and when I complain, he says the deal was not about weight.
" I am sure you recall and I was very specific, as to approximate weight of this shippment not being a factor in this sale."

The one thing he has to base that on is a Payapal invoice, prepared by him after we agreed on a price, which describes the contents without mentioning weight.It doesn't say anything like weight not being a factor either. I paid him by check (generously saving him the Paypal fees). He's apparently planning to use the Paypal invoice as a "gottya" to claim the deal was never about weight. Since he was honest in our deal ten or so years ago I had no reason to be supicious of him this time, and really didn't even look closely at the Paypal invoice. So his position is that I refused his offer to buy all for $6325, and then offered him $8000 for the exact same thing , which he accepted, and that the deal was never about weight. When I offered him the 8K I explained that $1.40 x 5400 pounds came out to $7560 , plus $650 for shipping, rounded down to 8K, and he just said ,fine. So I guess the legal question is whether a Paypal invoice trumps all the negotiations that came before it, much of which were verbal, so there's not much written record.The Paypal invoice was later cancelled, since I paid by check .

The whole parcel is worth (at least to me) about $5000. He sent a total of 3350 pounds of material, most of it trimings from cants, very irregular pieces as thin as .125, with few pieces large enough to mill 1" squares out of. Useful to me, but a lot more work to use than square edges boards or cants.

How will PA small claims view this?

[David Weaver]

If the invoice doesn't say anything about $1.40 a pound, do you have something in writing somewhere that the final amount was 5400 pounds at $1.40 a pound less a little? If there's no sent/received record of that and the negotiating for the final sale was on the phone, your chances aren't as good as they would be if you had written back and forth about it and then could make the case that the deal was agreed on and you just sent a generic paypal payment to cover it.

Anyone viewing the details of the conversation in small claims court would still have to suspect you're close to accurate based on what you've told us, as you'd have no reason to say "I'll take what you have, but I'd like to pay you a lot more than the $1.40 a pound you were asking for".

[Steve Meliza]

The warning signs I see are:
1) A price per pound was used to negotiate the price of an un-weighed pile of lumber and payment was made before the weight was known.
2) He asked for $6500 and you counter offered with $7560

I'm no lawyer, but since the wood was not weighed before the sale and there is no bill of sale stating the weight then I doubt you'd get far. However, morally this guy knows you paid him his asking price for 5400lbs of wood and he only had 3350 lbs. so he should refund you the difference once he became aware of the true weight. Would it be against SMC to post this guy's shameful name?

[Bruce Page]

Would it be against SMC to post this guy's shameful name?
Not a good idea. SMC is not a court of law. Posting a name in this situation could possibly make SMC liable and will be removed.

[Dan Hintz]

6.He calls and tells me he has 5400 pounds, and encourages me to make an offer.
7.I call back and offer $8000 for all, delivered, explaining to him that $1.40 x 5400 pounds comes out to $7560, plus $650 for shipping, rounded down to 8K.
8.He accepts, and ships me 3350 pounds of ebony, and when I complain, he says the deal was not about weight.

I paid him by check.

He sent a total of 3350 pounds of material, most of it trimings from cants, very irregular pieces as thin as .125, with few pieces large enough to mill 1" squares out of. Useful to me, but a lot more work to use than square edges boards or cants.

I have trimmed your dialogue to the bare necessities. PayPal is a red herring either way since you never completed the transaction through PP... don't bother mentioning it. If he mentions it, it will be judged irrelevant. At that point, all that matters is your email / voice records.

With that in mind (and this assumes everything is either in emails or on recorder... if not, your chances of success are significantly less), he said he had 5,400 pounds, therefore he has made a specific claim. You paid a specified sum for that poundage of wood. If the poundage is significantly less (a 40% difference is significant), the contract has been broken. You say much is verbal, he has a written version of your conversation (so to speak, in the PayPal "record"). which case is stronger will depend upon the judge, but you just never know. The judge may decide to have him return your money and you return the wood for simplicity, but either party could disagree.

[Scott T Smith]

I have trimmed your dialogue to the bare necessities. PayPal is a red herring either way since you never completed the transaction through PP... don't bother mentioning it. If he mentions it, it will be judged irrelevant. At that point, all that matters is your email / voice records.

With that in mind (and this assumes everything is either in emails or on recorder... if not, your chances of success are significantly less), he said he had 5,400 pounds, therefore he has made a specific claim. You paid a specified sum for that poundage of wood. If the poundage is significantly less (a 40% difference is significant), the contract has been broken. You say much is verbal, he has a written version of your conversation (so to speak, in the PayPal "record"). which case is stronger will depend upon the judge, but you just never know. The judge may decide to have him return your money and you return the wood for simplicity, but either party could disagree.

+1. Dan has done a good job of summarizing things. This one could go either way in court.

[al ladd]

Well for all who replied on this, here's the resolution: A local lawyer friend suggested he'd write a letter threatening triple damages for intentional misrepresentation. He admitted the case wouldn't be worth pursuing, but thought there was an outside chance the scofflaw would offer some $$$ rather than risk it. The guy offered up $950 and I took it --the lawyer got $100 of it. So I still paid more than I should have, but felt vindicated by his offering of a settlement, admitting (off the record of course) that he'd wronged me, and bringing down the cost to what's in my mind still a pretty good deal. I now own a whole big pile of ebony scantlings! Thanks again to all who replied. It seems like , practically speaking, small claims suits have to be brought in the merchants home area, and it's a hassle to obtain a judgment that then is apt to be ignored.......

[Dan Hintz]

Wow, I did a search on Ebony Scantlings... I don't suggest it unless SafeSearch is turned on ;)

I just wanted to know how big the pieces were so I could possibly get a few cutoffs... my bad!