16" Kane and Roach Jointer

[Mike Cutler]

Hey folks.

Thought I'd just share a new purchase of an old machine.
I purchased the jointer that Michael Mayo originally started a thread on a few weeks back, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198319-Kane-amp-Roach-16-quot-Jointer , I thought Mike had bought the jointer and then saw it listed again this past Monday, so I bought it.
This one heavy beast! Just the top works, fence, tables and cutterhead, brought my 4WD Toyota's bed significantly down. The actual base was moved in the bed of an F-350.
Here's a pic of the machine.
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I disassembled it a little to move it, and took the cutterhedd apart just to get an idea of how it was made. The Babbit's have me slightly confused. The Babbit's material in the cutterhead support assembly is a little odd. The roping runs at angle through the bearing, probably to increase oiling efficiency.
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The top Babbitt looks more conventional.
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It is one massive head. The total length is almost 36" and the cutterhead diameter would be about 4 1/2". The blades, as you can see in the pics, are impressive. They're over 3/8" thick, just massive for a blade. We have a hydraulic shear at work that has blades like this.

The machine is actually not in bad shape. There is surface rust on the tables, and one area of pitting on the fence. Almost all of the parts are there. I'm missing one hand knob, to tighten the tables to the base, and a table clip. All of the bolting and threading is conventional, so any threaded rod can easily be sources of i need it. The acme threaded rod for the table adjusters is fine and just needs a little brushing up and stoning and the will be perfect.
There was no blade guard, but I see on OWWM website that one of the guys had a guard made of a 12" Kane and Roach, so I'll probably copy his work and make one for the 16".
In the pic's Michael posted you can see pitting at the throat of the tables, which I thought would be an issue until I got it home and found that there are removable throat plates, and the pitting is limited only to those pieces of metal, and not the tables themselves.
The plan is to convert it to a conventional 3 cutter head, or maybe a Byrd/Shelix head. I see that Grizzly Ebay's cutterheads and I might be able to just buy one and be good to go.
There is more than enough material on the base casting to properly mount a set of bearing blocks, now it's just a matter of finding the right combination of blocks, bearing and cutter head. It will also require a riser block to get the cutter to the right height, but I'll need to get everything together first and then have the riser blocks machined. I'm hoping that the riser blocks will allow me to transition between old and new without having to drill any holes into the original casting. I'd have to either rent mag base drill to do it, or turn it over to a machine shop to drill accurately into the casting.
It should be an interesting project, and I'd like chronicle here if that's alright. Just so someone doesn't have search as hard as I've been to find what little info I could about Kane and Roach jointers.

[david brum]

That's a massive machine. Congratulations! I've wondered what a square cutter head looked like. Is the safety concern that the blades might fly off ( those blades would leave a mark) of that something might jam between the cutter head and tables? That's huge spinning mass, at any rate. I always see warnings about square cutter heads and am curious about why.

That would be really sweet with a Byrd head. If you go that way, do you plan to retrofit a planer head? Just a thought, but I'll bet that you could get a 15" 3 or 4 blade cutter head cheaply from somebody who's recently converted to a Byrd. I gave mine away, not knowing who might ever want it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, that is going to be fun to watch being restored, please keep us posted! That new Felder spiral "Silent Power" cutterhead looks like the best out there, if money was no object, I'd look at that one too.

[Mike Cutler]

David

It is heavy. I know that the tables themselves weigh in excess of 250 lbs. each.because they bottomed out the load scale I was using. The cutter head, and carriage are over 100 lbs. and the fence is about 50 lbs., so the top of the machine is probably over 700 lbs. all by itself, not counting the base.
That square cutter head is pretty intimidating. It's a lot of metal. I took the blades off as a safety measure while I mess with it. They're really sharp, so no need to cut open a finger just moving the thing around . They're in really good shape too!, so hopefully I can use them to trade for parts or services with someone that needs them for a resto' project.
I put the jointer back together, minus the blades, this morning after building a rolling cart for it, hooked up the little 1HP motor it came with, and fired it up. That is one eerie noise coming from that cutter head. Wow!
The safety concern ,as I understand it, is that the square cutter head would allow you to get your fingers into the throat opening, and in the event of an accident you'd cut them off. The throat opening is about 1 3/4" wide with the tables adjusted compared to 1 1/4" on my 6" jet. Folks with a lot more knowledge and skill than I have say replacing it is the prudent measure, so I'll pay attention. I can also see that using in a hobby application would be somewhat safer, as I would only be trying to remove 1/32nd to a 64th at a whack and not 1/4" plus. Still though,,,
I don't think it could "throw a blade", and as I've read it, the clamshell design that was known to have the potential to come apart under load.

I'm actually going to be looking for a cutter head, and to get the clearances for the mounts and bearings it will have to be an older 16",30's vintage, or a newer style 20". Both will have to be machined to fit, but I've got to get the blocks first.. I'm not sure a new style 15" would be long enough over all to fit. I've got an eMail into Byrd for a quote, so we'll se where it goes. It could be cheaper,and quicker, to have a Byrd head and repour the babbitts.

Steve
Thank you for the lead on a Felder head. Right now any leads on cutter heads are valuable to me. You never know what might have to be used.

[Mel Fulks]

The square heads will pull you into the machine ,the round heads just cut what is closest. I don't think the machine is any more ,or less safe taking shallow or deep cuts. Most of those old ones will take off a whole inch at one time and are especially handy for removing crooked edges. Have you determined the present Babbitt is not useable? They last a long time. You will really enjoy using that machine.

[David Kumm]

It isn't just your fingers but with thinner boards the ends can drop into the opening enough to kick back. Rare but once is like bad fish- you will remember it forever. Felder will not make heads to order and they have nickers so cutting them down loses something. I would go straight knife and retro a longer old PM or similar planer head as they are plentiful and cheap. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Mel

The Babbitt is actually in pretty fair shape, all things considered. There is a slight amount of lateral play from the non drive side babbitt, but no rotational play. There are three grooves cut into the arbor shaft, and the babbitt is worn where the grooves ride, which is where the lateral play is coming from. I'd replace the rope though and preoil it. One side is also missing an oil injection port. The other has a zerk fitting. It was pretty gummy in the journal and babbitt,and I think someone in the past was just greasing it
I have no doubts that it would function as a jointer with no more than an adequately sized motor. That little 1hp. will turn the cutter head, but it wouldn't have much oomph. I could literally put a board through it today if needed.
The tables are in fine shape, they're not new and pretty, got some light surface pitting, but they're flat in all directions. A little elbow grease, some wax, and you could slide a board right across. The only thing I've notices is that the co-planar is slightly off between the two tables. I think it was originally shimmed, as with motor mount shims, and just needs to be re-shimmed. That'll just take a little time, shim stock, feeler gauges, and a chain hoist.
I think I'm going to enjoy it also.

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

That jointer is really cool. I picked up a 1906 20" bandsaw last fall that I plan to re-hab this summer. It also has babbit bearings. I have not taken it apart but hoping they are OK. If not, re-pouring seems fairly straight forward if a little time consuming. (But then again, I knew what I was getting into.) Someone on OWWM did a pretty good job of documenting his re-pour.

I am really looking forward to your progress. Congrats on the beast.

[Mel Fulks]

That is true and another reason why when facing convex side down is best .For edges ,refusing to joint small pieces is just good common sense .I use the word refusing because I know a guy who volunteered to do a job others had refused as unsafe ,and lost a couple of fingers. When you are employed in woodworking you have to know what is safe because sometimes management does not know.

[Richard Coers]

Any shims left in the caps? I'd clean it all up, get rid of zerk, get a 5hp motor, and make chips. Pull a shim if necessary. I had a 16" Fay and Egan with some side play like you talked about. Never noticed it while running. Loved that machine, but couldn't bring it home when I closed my business. The talk about getting sucked into the head seems like BS to me. You get around the knife with meat, you are coming out missing parts no matter what kind of head. Mine had a horrible homemade guard over the cutter. It sounded like a jut engine spooling up with the dust collector running. I didn't want to get within a foot of that head, even with paddles.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Felder will not make heads to order and they have nickers so cutting them down loses something. I would go straight knife and retro a longer old PM or similar planer head as they are plentiful and cheap. Dave

But..., Felder makes one for a 16" machine, and if the babbitt is being replaced by bearings already anyhow, it may not need modified beyond pillow blocks and drive. Just thinking out loud.

[Michael Mayo]

Mike,
Congrats on the acquisition of the jointer. I was all ready to go and pick it up and I decided at the last minute to bow out and called the woman up and told her I was sorry but that I decided not to purchase the jointer. From what you are saying that was a good decision on my part. I could easily have done everything you are planning to do but the problem is the money. I just don't have that kind of money right now and I wasn't lookng for another project right now just a jointer I could easily and quickly get up and running. This jointer was not that type of jointer althogh I am sure once you give her some TLC and some modifications it will be a killer jointer for sure. I was really excited about getting a 16" jointer but after doing some more research and talking to a few people it just wasn't going to be a good move on my part to buy it. She did lower the price from $400 to $250 last week and I was actually going to give her $200 I hope you also were able to make a deal for it.

[David Kumm]

But..., Felder makes one for a 16" machine, and if the babbitt is being replaced by bearings already anyhow, it may not need modified beyond pillow blocks and drive. Just thinking out loud.

I didn't think about changing the bearings too. Raises the tables and causes more modifications but has been done. My understanding is that Felder only offers the Slient power with new machines and doesn't produce any for retrofit at this time. Will take some time before they ramp up to where the cost doesn't kill. They are top of the food chain though. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Mike,
Congrats on the acquisition of the jointer. I was all ready to go and pick it up and I decided at the last minute to bow out and called the woman up and told her I was sorry but that I decided not to purchase the jointer. From what you are saying that was a good decision on my part. I could easily have done everything you are planning to do but the problem is the money. I just don't have that kind of money right now and I wasn't lookng for another project right now just a jointer I could easily and quickly get up and running. This jointer was not that type of jointer althogh I am sure once you give her some TLC and some modifications it will be a killer jointer for sure. I was really excited about getting a 16" jointer but after doing some more research and talking to a few people it just wasn't going to be a good move on my part to buy it. She did lower the price from $400 to $250 last week and I was actually going to give her $200 I hope you also were able to make a deal for it.

Mike
Yeah it doesn't make much sense to start a project, if it's more important to meet immediate needs.There are a lot of jointers out there, and in fact there is a nice 12" Kane and Roach in Philly right now. It looks ready to rock. A road trip, with some Philly cheese steaks, and you'd be set.
I've been making do with a Jet 6" jointer and planer sleds for a long time, so if this jointer sits for awhile and only performs the role of an impromptu aux bench it's okay. Heck, the other nite it served a great role in holding all of the tools and stuff I needed to change the oil, and filters, in the Mini Cooper. Kinda cool having all of the stuff right there at fender height.:cool:
The jointer is only 15 miles north of Mystic, in Griswold. It didn't move far.
I paid a fair price for it. The seller and I have been friends for many years, and I used to torture her on bicycle rides at times, but she got even in the pool. What sold me on this particular jointer was that all of the fence and hardware was there. Many I've looked at were missing the fence,and or, various pieces of hardware. Getting all of it at once was a bonus. It makes it a lot easier to get it up and running.
Watch for the jointer that meets your needs. If you're willing to travel for it, there are some nice machines out there.

[al ladd]

I bought an old clamshell head 17" jointer (Atlantic Works --1890?) and had Byrd make a head to fit the excellent babbets. It works wonderfully, and it's this very cool combination of 18th and 21st century technology, with just the single phose motor bridging the gap. http://www.alladd.com/shop_and_machinery_photos.htm . This was all before the recession, when machinery went for more than pennies on the dollar, but it was still a bargain compared to anything comparable.