Adhesive for fast Veneering? Hide Glue?

[Joel Wesseling]

Hello

I cold press veneer on small speaker cabinets(all flat sides) and looking for a way to speed up the process
where I don't have to wait too long to trim the edges and then move to the next side.

I'm about to pick up some hide glue and try it for the first time. If I use this, how ling do I have to wait to remove the platen and for complete hardening?
Then move on to the next piece.. 10 minute maximum would be nice..

Maybe other ideas?

Thanks, Joel

[david brum]

I'll preface my response by saying that I have limited experience with hide glue. I've used it on a couple of projects and had mixed results. That said, if you're talking about traditional hide glue, I don't think you'll find it much faster if you factor the prep time and narrow range of usability. Keep in mind that you have to cook the glue ( preferably over a 24 hour period) and apply it in a warm shop, to a warm veneer and substrate. You also probably would have limited success in a veneer press. Hide glue sets up pretty fast, possibly faster than you can stuff it into a vacuum bag and start the vacuum. It is traditionally pressed with a veneer hammer, like a big squeegee. You usually often need to reheat sections with an iron as you go, in order to liquify the glue. Even then, you often have to go back the next day and fix spots where the glue didn't adhere.

If other guys are getting better results, I'd love to hear about it! I've read about mixing salt, etc with hide glue to slow the tack time. Still lots of trouble. My ( again limited) experience is that Better Bond is pretty fast, they say 45 minutes clamp time. What are you using now?

[Mel Fulks]

There is a type of glue that works similar to contact cement ,but is much more permanent. Can't remember what it's called and have not used it. Saw it in paper catalog listing all of Custom Pak adhesives. It might be available only in large containers.I would call them. I have at times suggested trying it when employers were having problems with regular contact cement holding long enuf to get paid for the jobs. Since it costs more ,idea was not well received.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I agree with David on the hide glue. I have tried it probably a dozen times, because I bought a lot of it once. I have never had a good experience with it. You will fool around getting the messy stuff where you want it for 20 mins, then it will dry too fast in places, and you get inconsistent adhesion. I'm sure somebody that knows what they are doing with it can force it to work, but I've never seen any reason to learn more about it. I seriously doubt it would be consistently dry in 10 mins as well. Mel mentioned that contact type adhesive, and it sure sounds like a better idea. veneersupplies used to carry it, IIRK, but it's not listed now.

[Joe Hillmann]

Here is a link to the woodright shop on PBS. In it Roy has someone on who shows/ explains how to use hide glue to do hammer veneering. It looks like a good way to go if you don't have the ability to clamp it in place but I don't think it is the way to go to try and speed things up.

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2800/2810.html

I want to point out I have no first hand knowledge of anything to do with hide glue. My opinion is based on what I have read, heard, and watched.

[mike holden]

Hammer veneering with hide glue is simple and quick. You do NOT have to heat hide glue for 24 hours, just bring it up to temp (~140 fahrenheit).
There is no platen or press involved. You can trim edges in 10-15 minutes, but since hide glue continues to contract till cured it is not recommended. 24 hours for cure with hide glue
However, since you are obviously doing this commercially, I would recommend looking into radio wave activated adhesives. It would involve buying a new press with the transmitter attached, but the set time is in seconds.
Mike

[thomas eaves]

Joel, You have not mentioned the type of veneer you are using?

[Mike Henderson]

There are heat activated adhesives that are used commercially. The glue is spread, the veneer applied and then pressed with a hot platen. Still takes a few minutes.

UF glues will speed up with heat but I don't know how fast you can push them.

There is no commercial use (that I've ever heard of) of hide glue for veneer.

Mike

[larry senen]

you can coat your substrate and veneer with white or yellow glue.let dry and then use a hot household iron to bond the two.
the white bonds at a slightly lower temperature then yellow.
i always dampen the veneer a little after bonding to counter the drying effect of the iron.

[Chris Padilla]

My veneer experience is with the Better Bonds glue sold by joewoodworker.com and using a vacuum press. Yes, you can pull it out in 45 minutes but I don't know if you could start working it straight away or not. I always let it cure overnight or a day. Chat with Joe...he is very responsive to emails and I bet he can help steer you to what you want. However, I think Mike H. above nailed it: radiowave (microwave) cure is the absolute fastest way I've seen as it is quite literally seconds but I know nothing of the equipment/capitol investment needed to use such glue.

[john bateman]

If you would veneer your substrate material first in one large sheet, then saw it up into 6 pieces to form your cabinet, you wouldn't have this problem.

[Joel Wesseling]

Thanks for the help.. Looks like hide glue is out of the question..

I use Better Bond Cold Press Glue form Joe.. The results are Pro.. .. 4 hours before trimming excess.. All the veneer is raw, joined and various species
Not commercial now but thinking that way.. Producing one offs for a few years

This Radiowave thing sound interesting and I'll read more..

A Heated platen is what I really want.. Is there a way of making them so I can have different sizes that I lift on top and then use clamps clamp?

Cheers..

[Joe Jensen]

For mostly flat work I used Unibond 800 but for cold press I just use yellow WW glue. I live in AZ but here it sets for veneer work in 15 min. I trim in about an hour and I've never felt any risk when doing that. Having said that, if a commerical use I'd find an RF setup

[Darius Ferlas]

See if Weldbond satisfies requirements.
It is certainly strong enough.
A layer of glue. An hour for it to get tacky. Apply and press.
If you wait longer and the tack is lost, apply heat and press, just like the pre-glued edge banding tapes.

Water based, inexpensive, available pretty much everywhere.

[Mel Fulks]

Found additional info and sent PM. Name of material is PROTACT

[Kevin Jenness]

There is a fast tacking pva known as FVS or flexible sheet veneer that can be used somewhat like contact cement, rolled on and pressed down with a veneer hammer or similar hand pressure, but it is made for use with paperbacked veneer. I have had reasonable luck with it in spots that were impossible to press, though with occasional edge curling that had to be clamped down.

There are hot melt adhesives in sheet form that can be pressed with a hot iron. I don't know how well they work with raw veneer. I would be leery of using them for a large piece. Some people have success rolling out pva glue, letting it tack then pressing the veneer with a hot iron.

It is possible to veneer an assembled box using a vacuum bag, which involves introducing a bladder at ambient air pressure inside the box, which is inside the vacuum bag, thus putting pressure on the veneer and box sides without imploding the box. Complicated, but possible.

If you are building the speaker boxes, it would be much more efficient to veneer a large sheet with a press, then assemble the boxes with parts cut from the sheet as John Bateman suggests. Vacuum press are quite common for cold pressing, though screw presses or even sufficient clamps and cauls work also. Pva is often used for cold pressing, with cycle times as short as an hour. Urea Formaldehyde is a more rigid glue and the most commonly used in industry, but requires a minimum 70F temp. They both can be accelerated with heat or rf. I think the portable "wood welders" start around $3k for a hand held unit with a fairly small field. That might or might not work for you.

It would be worth your while to check out the Veneer Systems website and talk to the owner, John Van Brussel. He is very knowledgeable about professional/industrial veneer practices. Another good source for supplies and advice is Darryl Keil at Vacuum Pressing Systems (vacupress.com). The site has a fairly active forum, and his videos on vacuum veneering are quite useful.

[Joel Wesseling]

Mel, thanks for the PM

I couldnt find Protact but leaning toward a heated platen and I see vacupress has them but maybe I can make one.. Thanks Kevin..

Veneering a hole panel first is done alot and then cnc V grooves are cut and cab folded.. Mine are all lock mitre or rabbet mitre corners with Baltic Birch ply..

Okay, Got to think on how to make a heated platen..

Thanks, Joel

[Andrew Joiner]

I use 250 watt clear heat lamps a lot. I bet several heat lamp bulbs aimed at a scrap of black granite would heat it up enough to work as hot platen. 4 lamps on a 2'x2' slab would get hot and might be the biggest easily moved by one person. Wear gloves!

[Andrew Joiner]

Just thinking . You might need to have a hot platen on both faces of your layup for balance. Drying glue with heat lamps shining to close to one face of a glue-up can cause warping.

[Mel Fulks]

You're welcome .They don't have much of a web site ,seems strange since their paper catalogs had a lot of info .Custom Pak is most helpful on phone though.

[Joel Wesseling]

I use 250 watt clear heat lamps a lot. I bet several heat lamp bulbs aimed at a scrap of black granite would heat it up enough to work as hot platen. 4 lamps on a 2'x2' slab would get hot and might be the biggest easily moved by one person. Wear gloves!

For starters I will try some heat lamp beacause even a warmer room speeds up Better Bonds drying time.. I cant use granite for press platen but maybe your saying set the
granite on the veneer after it comes out of the press(45min) with heat lamps.. This is good idea and warping shouldnt be a problem with strong boxes...