Rebuilding power tools philosophy

[Rich Riddle]

I am starting to change philosophies on rebuilding power tools that won't be kept forever. After seeing how low Matt had to resell his Unisaw he took hours and hours to rebuild, it doesn't seem worth it to disassemble every part, clean, and paint them when potential buyers won't even bid high enough to cover the cost of the paint, let alone the time. Guess my philosophy hence forward will be to put in new bearings, consumable parts, lubricate, and give a lick and a promise.

[Bob Wingard]

I think a lot of it is due to the economy .. and I don't expect it will improve much for at least 4 years.

[Brian Kincaid]

I agree, 5 years ago there would have been a line out the door to see an old beat up rusty Unisaw listed for $1100. Nowadays I have seen ads sit for weeks at half that.

-Brian

[Jay Rasmussen]

Doing it for pure economic reason probably doesn’t make sense but I think a lot of folks like to mess with stuff mechanical/electrical for the fun of it.

[johnny means]

Generally, people who put a premium on shiny, near perfect, unworn things will just buy new. Once you have decided to buy used, you've decided to trade off condition for price. You have plenty of fellas who do what Matt did to his saw with cars, knowing that they will be selling at a loss when they decide on the next project. I would rather put that creativity, effort and time into my woodworking.

[Matt Meiser]

I did OK on it because I got it at a bargain price, got most of the pieces I needed at a bargain price, and was able to sell the original motor and fence. I didn't make money, but I don't think I lost money either. And regardless that wasn't my goal when I bought it--pretty much bought it on a whim because it was cheap and I wanted a project. I had a week of lunch times and evenings and a snowy weekend tied up in it work wise and that was fun for me. It ended up being a nicer saw than I had at the time so I kept it and sold my older Unisaw. Even then I was considering a Sawstop.

As we discussed in PM's, I also think the bottom has fallen out of the used TS market in particular. I can't tell you how many people PM'd or emailed me to ask how I like my new Sawstop because that's what they are looking at.

I'll probably do it again too if I stumble across the right machine.

[mreza Salav]

You may not make money in buying/selling used machines but I guess you'd loose less than buying new and selling later (I myself have never lost money buying/selling used).

Matt: so how do you like your Sawstop? :D
Now that you say this, I am thinking of getting a poll to see how many people who bought a new tablesaw in the last 4-5 years have bought Sawstop vs other brands...

[Jeff Duncan]

Nope, It's not worth it and I doubt it ever was if your looking to make a profit, even when the economy was in full bloom. Guys wanting used machinery generally speaking are buying for two main reasons. 1) b/c it's cheaper than new. And/or 2), b/c you can get a better quality machine used for the same or less than you can get a new machine. So looking at that mindset who's going to want to pay a premium for a machine that someone rebuilt from the ground up polishing every nut and bolt?

My philosophy on buying used, which most of my shop is, is to unload it, blow out most of the dust, and if things check out wire it up and put it to work. I replace bearings when they need it and only fix things that need fixing. I have machines in my shop, (primarily industrial), that I bought used and I've continued to use year after year without so much as replacing a v-belt. This goes against the philosophies of many of the 'ARN' guys, but it's served me well so far. Now don't get me wrong, I think it's pretty cool some of the restorations guys do. I just wouldn't ever do it with any intent on selling it afterwards. If I'm putting that kind of time into a machine it's then a labor of love and is going to stick around:)

good luck,
JeffD

[HANK METZ]

I buy cheap, usually hopeless cases because my ego tells me I can bring the dead back to life. I play with them a while, enjoying the fruits of my labors as a reward and then sell it and begin the process over, usually having traded up for a slightly better hopeless case. It can be as addictive as woodworking itself, and in the end really costs but a pittance yet you learn so much about what makes a quality tool. There’s nothing like doing a failure analysis on a 60 year old saw to teach you what works best in the long run and what’s just a manufacturers shortcut to getting the thing shipped out the door.

Funny thing is, the same strategy applies equally as well to my woodworking skills; doing furniture repair and restoration in my early years was a college that no one hosts, yet under the hood you discover masterful touches of craftsmanship that you incorporate into your own bag of tricks and techniques that work for you, to be called upon to solve a seemingly unsolvable design problem because you know, somehow, it can be done.

- Beachside Hank
Improvise, adapt, overcome; the essence of true craftsmanship.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just my opinion, I think the specter of making money in this hobby ruins it for me. I do this to escape from real life, so I couldn't care less if a restored tool makes me money when I sell it because the pleasure of having a restored tool to use is where I put the value in the equation. Pretty sure my old Oliver band saw that I put pretty good bucks into is worth no more to somebody else than what I paid originally, but it is to me.

[Myk Rian]

I am starting to change philosophies on rebuilding power tools that won't be kept forever.
Which is key to the whole idea. If you're going to keep them, it's worth it.

[Mike Cutler]

Just my opinion, I think the specter of making money in this hobby ruins it for me. I do this to escape from real life, so I couldn't care less if a restored tool makes me money when I sell it because the pleasure of having a restored tool to use is where I put the value in the equation. Pretty sure my old Oliver band saw that I put pretty good bucks into is worth no more to somebody else than what I paid originally, but it is to me.

Steve
Absolutely agree!
I'm getting ready to do like Hank. I'm bought an older used 16" Jointer ( http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198319-Kane-amp-Roach-16-quot-Jointer ). I won't even attempt to restore to a pristine condition, just get it to working safely and properly. If I can't get it that state, I'll use for an assembly bench, or a tablesaw out feed table, and still be ahead.( But I'm pretty sure I can get it up and rolling.;) )

Another factor is location.
Matt's Unisaw was beautiful. In the Northeast he probably would have got closer to what he was asking for. It was leaps and bounds nicer than a lot of the stuff that show up on Craigslist back here.

[Cary Falk]

If somebody can make money restoring power tools, more power to them. I have restored a half dozen tools. I bought them thinking I would have them forever. I ended up selling my MBF RAS because I found a GWI and a Unisaw because I wanted a riving knife. Both I took a loss on not counting getting nothing for my countless hours of labor. I try to not let it bote me too much. The restore process is a nice break from wood and I always like to take stuff apart to see how it works.

[Roy Turbett]

For some of us our shop is our "Man Cave" and our vintage machines are just part of the decor.

[Mike Henderson]

The technology of power tools continues to advance, albeit slowly. Most people will want tools with the new technology which depresses the price of the older tools without that technology. In table saws, the significant new technology is riving knives and flesh sensing technology. If you old saw does not have that, it's going to be less desirable, unless someone just wants it for an antique collection.

The problem with rebuilding anything - a tool, a car, whatever - is that when you're finished what you wind up with is an old product.

Mike

[Mike Heidrick]

I enjoy working with steel and alum. I build CNCs and other machines. I do it for myself and to use the tools myself or to help friends and to teach myself new things. Its a world different when you are doing it to not make money but to save money.

[Mel Fulks]

I see it pretty much as Jeff does. I like old machinery but I want it in maintained non abused condition .Dont care about repainting with exact original color and don't want any thing that has been used for an anvil and rewelded. Many of the old machines are better than new ones. Yes there is some new technology.There are also good things not used anymore,like Mechanite. I started working in mid 1960s and all the saws had riving knives. The only thing different is they are now on dinky saws too. Thats not technology ,its liability.

[Steve Kohn]

The technology of power tools continues to advance, albeit slowly. Most people will want tools with the new technology which depresses the price of the older tools without that technology. In table saws, the significant new technology is riving knives and flesh sensing technology. If you old saw does not have that, it's going to be less desirable, unless someone just wants it for an antique collection.

The problem with rebuilding anything - a tool, a car, whatever - is that when you're finished what you wind up with is an old product.
Mike


I totally agree with Mike on this. With the advent of the Sawstop's flesh sensing technology all other tablesaws essentially became obsolete and a commercial liability. At least for schools and commercial shops that have to provide liablity insurance. That technology change alone has rendered thousands of formerly top of the line tablesaws essentially worthless except to the hobby market. And the hobby market is not likely to pay top dollar for anything.

I have a philosophy about the tools in my hobby shop. Some of my tools were bought new, some used, and some very abused and not functional. I generally decide I need a specific tool and look for a useable used version on CL and eBay. After some time of searching if I haven't found an acceptable tool I'll start looking at both new and badly distressed versions. Then I'll make the decision on new versus a restoration and buy something.

Another point to mention is what I mean by restoration. I simply don't care about the historical accuracy of the colors, functions, and features of the machine. I want it to work and do what I need the machine to do. I use the closest rattle can color to what was on the machine, make parts that are needed to do what I want to do, fix defects (wiring, bearings, and the like) and then put the machine into service. My hobby is woodworking and not machine repair.

There aren't any major machines in my shop that I've not modified in one way or the other. That includes new machines, used machines, or distressed machines.

The way I look at it is my heirs can deal with the value of the machine when I'm dead, but until then the machine is needed to work for me.

[Kevin Bourque]

When I rebuild an old machine I do it because its a really cool , old machine and I enjoy bringing it back to life and seeing it function again. I could never sell it for what I put into it, but thats not even a consideration for me personally.

[John TenEyck]

I'm with Steve. All of the stationary tools in my shop were bought used, some well abused. I got them for cheap, sometimes even for free. I only got machines that I intended to keep, so I never thought much about how much time it took to make them functional again, but I never got carried over the top either about using only OE parts, paint, etc. I have a Unisaw painted green, because I hate that grey color, with a Vega Pro fence on it. I have a Dewalt RAS that I removed from the stock base and bolted to a custom built steel frame because it better fit my needs. On and on. Some of those machines are now over 25 years old, and I'll buy more if I need one and the price is right. I love when new technology makes these old machines obsolete. That makes them even cheaper for folks like me to buy.

A side note: The Sawstop looks like a great invention. But I can't begin to count the photos people have posted of their machine with no blade guard in sight. Only a fool would rely on technology to save his hand. I would bet money that someone is going to sue Sawstop when they get hurt after not having the guard on.

John

[Chip Lindley]

I am starting to change philosophies on rebuilding power tools that won't be kept forever. After seeing how low Matt had to resell his Unisaw he took hours and hours to rebuild, it doesn't seem worth it to disassemble every part, clean, and paint them when potential buyers won't even bid high enough to cover the cost of the paint, let alone the time. Guess my philosophy hence forward will be to put in new bearings, consumable parts, lubricate, and give a lick and a promise.

Many different viewpoints from different folks with different interests and goals.


Don't forget it is Tax Refund time now. I have sold machinery advertised since last summer in the past few weeks. Right now there is some discretionary income amongst us, money is spent on things we would not normally buy. This year's fun spending is not a tool for me....only a BIG flat screen HDTV for SWMBO! Still a great investment, I'd say!


Moreso than here at SMC, the boys over at OWWM spend their money and tons of time to enjoy a pristine old machine. Most will go to their grave with a barn full of old ARN; most of which will never produce much woodworking. There is "pride of ownership." There are we el cheapo / bottom feeder collectors of old machinery, and then there are the high-end types who insist on perfection and are willing to pay for it. Case in point, Jay Lenno and his vast collection of automobiles. Although he may dabble in a restoration, Jay spends big bucks to contract professional car restorers to meet his every requirement. These professionals cater to clients same as cabinet shop owners do. These for hire may have started out with a burning love for auto restoration or woodworking, BUT now it is their job! This is how they make their living.

I had a deep interest in all things "railroad" in my youth thru 20's. But, after hiring out as a railroad brakeman in the '70s, being on call 24/7, working in any kind of weather, and being laid off too often, I soon lost my hobby interest. Only now after being retired 5 years, am I regaining my appreciation of things *railroad*. I will split my time between woodworking and model railroading with my grandsons now.

There are those who restore woodworking machinery for pleasure and to preserve these examples for yet another generation. (1935 Delta four-footer Unisaw, only driven on Sundays)

There are those who patch up old machinery to help their bottom line. No attention to detail as long as it works to their expectations. (I refuse to keep an old machine in that "generic, industrial baby poop green" for very long)

There are those who reject old machinery as a waste of time and money. (I suppose I wish I had enough $$$ to buy state-of-the-art TOYS!)

Buying new does enable new technology that saves time and limits liability. Although they may have an appreciation for Old ARN, these are heads-up business men. New tablesaw technology falls mainly into the safety/liability category as of now. You cannot re-invent the wheel. A better example would be CNC technology for repeatable accuracy. Cookie Cutter, yes, but on an industrial scale, CNC helps the bottom line hugely. I love seeing and hearing about JD Rutter's computerized shaper setup. Now that is the best of both worlds. JD does seem to balance his *business* woodworking with his enjoyment of all other things *woodworking* (sorry to shout you out JD)

Old saying: "Familiarity breeds contempt." True, so true! .....and another; When "you cannot see the forest for the trees" just camp out in the desert for a while.

[Stephen Cherry]

Many different viewpoints from different folks with different interests and goals.



There are those who restore woodworking machinery for pleasure and to preserve these examples for yet another generation. (1935 Delta four-footer Unisaw, only driven on Sundays)

There are those who patch up old machinery to help their bottom line. No attention to detail as long as it works to their expectations. (I refuse to keep an old machine in that "generic, industrial baby poop green" for very long)


.

Great perspectives Chip, and thanks for not saying too much about the model railroading (I'm trying to suppress my interest- I'm from a B&O family).

One other perspective on old machines is to get the functionality up to speed, but to keep the patina from past use. I have an old Delta "school" lathe, and two old Delta HD "prison" shapers, and they all work great, but the last thing I would want to do is wipe away the patina from decades of use; with each user leaving his mark on the machine in some way. Of course, if the paint is too far gone, this won't work, but otherwise, I like the old paint that shows the history of the machine.