Should we "settle" for less than desired tools?

[Rich Riddle]

In your opinions is it best simply to settle for good enough or hold out for what you consider the better/best tools?

I am still pondering a bandsaw and would really like a used Italian model but they don't often come up for sale. The Hammer N4400 looks like a good overall saw but a new unit would not be available until April. Hammer also prices all the accessories on the high side. Grizzly has a code we can use until tomorrow and has a very well reviewed saw from Fine WoodWorkig and many members. Unfortunately, there are many bad reviews of that saw online as well.

So should I settle?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Heck no. Never settle, you will always know you did and it will bother you for as long as you own the second pick tool. That could be why my tool budget is a bit bloated though....

[Von Bickley]

If I waited until I could afford the best tools, I wouldn't have any.....

I have a contractor saw, a hitachi miter saw, a few routers, a bench-top drill press and I use all my tools and they serve me well. I would love to have a cabinet saw, a sliding miter saw, a jointer and a few other goodies, but I content and happy with what I have.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I agree with Von. Most of us are of limited means and thus have to settle sometimes. I often read the mantra "buy the best tool you can afford" on this forum. I make a good income, but if I were apply that way of thinking to every tool purchase, I wouldn't have all the tools I need to make the furniture I want to make in a way that I enjoy making it.

Like most of life, reality is somewhere in the middle. It depends on your budget and your needs. If you are $500 away from having an amazing bandsaw, and there isn't anything else in your shop you'd rather spend that $500 on, and that $500 is something you are able to save up in a reasonable timeframe, then save until you can afford it. But only you can answer the question of what is "good enough" for you based on your needs, your means, and what you enjoy.

[David Kumm]

Sometimes it's best to settle until you have the knowledge and experience to make a proper judgement call. Then if you are educated and patient you can find what you need at a reasonable price. Technically i could afford a new martin Slider but I'd get just as much ( or more ) pleasure finding Johnny Means used Martin for 2500 and spend a few months fixing, making, and modifying parts to make it cut like new. The money saved might even create some income if Ben Bernanke has a stroke before I do. Dave

[Todd Brewer]

Murphy's law: As soon as you place an order for the Grizzly or Hammer, someone will post an ad for the used Italian saw.

The fact that you even ask this question says to me, you need to get the Hammer or hold out for the Italian saw.

I try to hold out for the better tools assuming I can afford them and don't need the tool right away.

Cost-benefit

[Paul McGaha]

I agree with Von. Most of us are of limited means and thus have to settle sometimes. I often read the mantra "buy the best tool you can afford" on this forum. I make a good income, but if I were apply that way of thinking to every tool purchase, I wouldn't have all the tools I need to make the furniture I want to make in a way that I enjoy making it.

Like most of life, reality is somewhere in the middle. It depends on your budget and your needs. If you are $500 away from having an amazing bandsaw, and there isn't anything else in your shop you'd rather spend that $500 on, and that $500 is something you are able to save up in a reasonable timeframe, then save until you can afford it. But only you can answer the question of what is "good enough" for you based on your needs, your means, and what you enjoy.

Well said Peter and Von. I try not to get carried away. It's a hobby with some expense to it.

PHM

[Sam Murdoch]

How long have you wanted a bandsaw and deprived yourself because the one you could afford wasn't good enough? It is amazing how much good work can be done with less and how much can be learned doing work arounds. Too bad to miss out just because you are a purist (my word-not yours, with no judgement implied - just asking a question). How much might you learn about a great bandsaw using a not so great? Long ago I was able to do some pretty amazing work with a really cheap and old Craftsman 8" table saw. It wasn't much better than a circular saw attached to the underside of a table but it was what I had, and I even surprised and pleased myself with the work I could do with it.

You can become a monk waiting for the perfect next date. :)

[Brian Kent]

In my circles and my own mind, bragging rights go to the one who researched and learned the sweet spot for every major purchase. What affordable car is the most right and reliable and fun? What tool will do all I need for 1/5 the cost of the best tool? What few tools will it really pay off to save for the best possible?

[Mike Cutler]

Buy the best you can afford that will meet your needs.
The wood doesn't know, or care, the nationality of the machine. It's the person doing the work that counts more than anything else.

Me personally; I'd spend less on a machine, so that I could spend more on the raw material. That's just me though.

[Ron Kellison]

Buy an old one that needs some love and attention. 3Ph units often seem to sell for the scrap value and all you really need is a $200 VFD to convert single phase power. If you don't have the means to move it you can usually find a rigger to move it for you. A few bearings, some paint, some supplies for cleaning and you're well on your way to having a great machine for far less money than an Italian stallion, even after you pay to move it.

I would advise you that this advice comes with a warning. Finding and restoring old tools can become addictive! I'm attaching a few photos of my current heart throb! It's an old Wheatley 8" shortbed jointer made between 1947 and 1953. Lots of steps between the first photo and the last but it just purrs when powered up and absolutely takes anything I throw at it without slowing down. You can do the same thing with an old, unloved bandsaw!


Ron
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[ken masoumi]

I think most of us with not a lot of "tool allowance" buy tools to basically start a shop then upgrade as we gain more experience and interest in woodworking( as well as income),I wonder how many of us have at some point ended up with at least two table saws,or bansaws,miter saws,routers,etc.

Another reason some may never buy the most expensive tools is may be they feel that expensive durable tool may out live them:).

Most of the tools in my humble shop are used,inexpensive but functional ,I'm sure better more expensive tools would have made a difference in some ways but I don't know any better so I'm not missing anything!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Guys, Rick said "what you consider the better/best" tools. He didn't say most expensive, or best brand name or whatever. When I first started I considered a Delta contractor saw as my best tablesaw option. I passed on a Ryobi and a Craftsman to get it. It was a great saw for that time of my life. Now I have a Felder, but I don't consider it as better than the Delta. The Delta was perfect for that point in my life, the Felder is now. Best is relative, and I still say never settle.

[james maichel]

I was actually facing this same dilemma about a week ago. I had some money set aside for a bunch of tools to starting setting up a new shop after being out of woodworking for a while. I am limited by space and the fact that all my machines have to be 110. I am also going to be moving in a few years and thought of lugging a few thousand pounds across country does not sit well with me. I was over at my tool dealer contemplating the purchase of a SawStop CNS for $2100. I started looking at the 1.75 PCS which was $2700 and 3 HP PCS ( can�t have due to lack of 220) selling for around $3100. When I saw how much more saw I got for roughly $1000 more the $2000 CNS did not look so attractive not to mention it took a huge chunk of my budget. I ended up buying some Festool�s and ordering a G0713 from Grizzly. I know that the Grizzly is not my dream saw but neither was the SawStop Contractor saw, so there was no point for me to spend twice as much on a saw that was not my dream when I could spend half as much on a similar quality saw. They probably even rolled out of the same factory. Now if I had the capability of 220, space and was not anticipating a move I would have spent the money on the SawStop 3HP PCS or a comparable PM, which would have been a majority of my tool budget but I would sleep easy at night knowing that I got exactly what I wanted. In the end every circumstance is different and you have to so what makes sense. If you get the Grizzly, will you wish you had gotten the Hammer? Contrastly, if you get the Hammer will you worry at night that paid more than you needed to on a bandsaw?

[Jim Matthews]

The Grizzly 17" is an excellent all-around saw that is built to World-class standards.

If you're concerned that the saw of your dreams might crop up, consider one of the Delta 14" old timers or clones rolling around.
The Delta 14 will do 90% of what the big saws can, and will cost you less to depreciation while it waits for you in the corner.

What I mean to say is that if you're not running a production shop, anything beyond the basics is additional expense that may not add funcitons.
The idea that power tools can be easily resold, at a high residual value neglects the difficulty of moving heavy objects.

FYI - I held out an purchased a Centauro 500/MM20 secondhand and have spent all the savings over new on shipping, refitting the Euro style guides and a decent fence.
If I were to do it again, I would buy an older Delta 14 (US made version) and install a riser kit and attach the highest quality aftermarket fence I could afford.

[Rich Riddle]

Guys, Rick said "what you consider the better/best" tools. He didn't say most expensive, or best brand name or whatever. Best is relative, and I still say never settle.You are correct, best is relative to the beholder. After reading lots of posts with wise members, I have drawn the conclusion that the Italian band saws are better than the others. The Hammer also reviews favorably. I have been upgrading recently to better tools than originally purchased and simply want to skip the initial process if possible.

Roh, I have rebuilt many OWWM tools and for the most part enjoy the process. I own a Powermatic Wood/Metal band saw rebuilt last year, but it's only 14" with 6" of resaw height. Thanks for that suggestion though.

[Rich Engelhardt]

So should I settle?
I'm not sure about you - but - I know I have to settle for less all the time.
I had some money set aside for a bandsaw & it looks it's all just going to go in the gas tank. :(

[Rich Riddle]

I'm not sure about you - but - I know I have to settle for less all the time.
I had some money set aside for a bandsaw & it looks it's all just going to go in the gas tank. :(THat's one large gas tank.

[john looser]

I settle for a lot of less desired tools but as long as they do the job I am happy . :D

[Rodger Kanis]

My vote: Hold out another month and a half for the Hammer. I think it is a nicer saw than most of the Grizzly saws. I disagree with the "world class" saw description of Grizzly above. They are built to a popular/accessible price point, and that's not a bad thing, and serves and important need (cost). That does not seem to be YOUR need, though.

The Hammer and Italian saws don't seem to pop up in my area either, so you may be waiting a LONG time if waiting for something in that class that is used. Around here, those rare ones that do show up are usually overpriced and/or beat to death. April is not that far away, and if you've gone this long without it, another month and a half is nothing... Unless you absolutely need it right now because this is your livelihood, which I didn't get the sense that it was.

You will have a twinge of regret every time you look at the Grizzly if you buy it right now. Hang in there, get what you REALLY want and will appreciate, if you can afford it, and consciously make the choice to do so based on yours needs/circumstances. You'll have a better machine and a better feeling about it, too.

Been there, done that, still learn that lesson on a semi-regular basis.

[John Bailey]

I would not settle for less than desired -- in value. If two machines will accomplish all I ever would want a machine to do but one is twice the price, I'll take the less expensive machine with higher value every time.

The question then becomes what you value. Some are moved entirely by usefulness, while others are moved by bragging rights with many variations in between. I believe all are legitimate and can only be determined by the individual.

A few years ago I had saved up enough to buy a Bridgewood 540 bandsaw. Then I saw an old iron Oliver 192-D and my heart went pitter-patter. It only has 1 hp, be it a monster 3 ph, and 10" resaw. However, in 20 years of woodworking I've never needed more than 5" of resaw, and my previous 3/4 hp Delta 14" accomplished that fine.

To me, walking in my shop everyday and having the opportunity to use that old Oliver is the highest of value.

I'm glad I didn't settle for that Bridgewood.

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

THat's one large gas tank.Not really....not anymore...
We went $700 over budget last month & it was all in gasoline.
That wiped out every penny I'd been saving for a bandsaw. :(.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think there's a happy middle ground. Your basically asking the question in a relative way, and then narrowing it down to 2 choices. There are a lot of other saws on the market besides the Hammer and Grizzly. If you want an Italian saw.....get one! They are not rare by any means, it's more a question of what's it worth to you to get one? Are you willing to have one shipped? Are you willing to pay more than bottom feeder prices? Are you willing to deal with 3 phase equipment? There are plenty of machines on the used and new market right now, it comes down to how much your willing to invest in the saw?

I rarely buy what I consider the best machines available.....but then again what I consider the best, is what's considered amongst my peers as the best available. Otherwise I'd have a shop full of German machinery. Like most people though I have a budget that needs to be taken into consideration. If I need a machine for a job I'll find the best available in my budget at that time. Otherwise it's usually a matter of watching and seeing what comes up on the market. I started out with a Ryobi table saw and a Craftsman RAS and gradually added and upgraded over time. As others said you can get a lot of work done without having top quality tools....though they do make it more enjoyable;) I'm running a late model Delta 20" saw right now and it pretty much does everything I need it to. At some point I'd still like to upgrade it, but it's just low on my priority list.

So I guess my point is you have to decide what's right for you. If you have no bandsaw now, and cannot find a higher end bandsaw like the Italian one you want, that also fits your particular situation....then you may want to buy something that gets the job done and upgrade it down the road when something better comes available. Or if your the type of person that only wants to buy once, save up and hold out:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Rich Riddle]

Well if I am willing to settle, there is a used Grizzly model 0514X (no brake) in Louisville listed for 1K on Craigslist. After the drive, it would be about $350 less than the new one delivered. That would not qualify for a "you suck" price to say the least. I could go there to see how it works and if the pricing didn't work out more favorably order the new one with a brake. It might be a win-win-win situation. Might get a new version at a reasonable price, might find out how it works and decide it's enough, and might realize that that model isn't for me at all.

[Gary Hodgin]

Consider 3 possibilities. One, buy the best you can afford. Two, buy the best value. Three, buy the cheapest. It seems most people I've meet in ww are a mixture of one and two, depending on relative importance of the tool, budget, and personality preferences. For example, someone might choose to buy a fancy dancy European table saw but choose to buy a Porter-Cable or Dewalt ROS.

The way people assess these things depends a lot of intensity of preferences. Some people just can't be satisfied on less than the best based on what they can afford. It's easy for these people to exaggerate "affordability" and a waste of money for these people to buy the best value. Can't help it, just a DNA thing.

[Doug Richardson]

When you are finished building something, is anyone going to be able to tell that you used that more expensive saw? Or is it going to save you so much time that is increases your profit line? Or do you really want it just so you can look down your nose with your pinky in the air, and say I have a "xyz" saw, and make your woodworking friends feel small?.....(don't forget to chortle when you tell them)..... ;-)

I say buy the saw with a decent track record that gets the job done. But hey, that's just me.....

[Ben Hatcher]

If you can find a used saw for a good price, you can generally resell it for what you paid. This option requires more cash while you wait for your saw to sell, but you get access to a band saw between now and whenever your dream saw comes up more or less for free.

[Prashun Patel]

The right question is very specific here:

Should I wait for the Hammer or buy the Grizzly?

If you have time and money, then wait for what you want. If you lack either, than I can say the G0514x line of saws is good, and you won't be 'settling'. It is solidly built.

If you can wait, then definitely get what your heart wanted first.

[mreza Salav]

If you don't need it right away, why not look for a better (used?) one?
I had (still have) a 14" bandsaw and was looking for a big Italian saw for about 2 years or more. I had told myself I'd buy MM16 if I don't find one. I was going to purchase a MM24 long distance but it was sold locally before I could. Eventually another 24" Italian saw came up about 600 miles away and I bought it and got it shipped. It was never used and at an excellent price (less what I'd have paid for a new MM16). I don't think our used market is better than any typical one (in Canada, far away from most places). So, if you are not in a rush it pays off to wait...

[Jeff Monson]

Buying, selling, upgrading all gets expensive. Its fun to do, but I'd say save your money and buy what you ultimately want. Otherwise you will have regrets.

[Alan Wright]

I get that there are all kind of leels of tools, but I think the real issue isn't weather you have to decide between the absolute best, most expensive tool out there or are you simply being realistic.

I recently bought a the Grizzly GO514x 19" bandsaw. I consider it to be a lifetime tool purchse. It was in the $1,400 range. I was considering this one along with a host of smaller, less expensive machines and ended up buying what I considered to be the best tool available of the choices I was considering. Having said that, I know there are fancy itialian bandsaws that are much "better and more expensive" I wasn't even considering them. I'm a hobbiest so it isn't in the cards cost wise. However, I still feel like I waited and saved to get the best saw I could. It's just that "best" is realtive to me alone. I'm a firm believer in waiting to get the best tool I can rather than settling. However, the best tool for me doesn't always mean the most expensive on on the market. It just means the best one available within the "reasonable" choices available to me.

[phil harold]

A bad carpenter blames his tools

I tools when I need them or when the price is right

So do you need it now?

if so buy the griz
you can make it work
If time is not of the essence, wait...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree somewhat with John.

With every tool purchase I balance frequency of use, type of use and cost. Some tools I decide to buy top shelf quality and expect to pay a higher price. Some tools I decide I don't need the best quality and I buy a lesser quality tool at a lower price.

It is a matter of personal opinion, needs and budget constraints.

[Brian Brightwell]

I am like Ron Kellson I like the old iron. I got this band saw for $250 from a machinist at work. I had breakfast with him this morning and ask if he would sell me my old Atlas lathe back. A 1936 model. He said he would think about it. I want to use it modify some chainsaws.
Getting an old tool working properly is almost as rewarding as woodworking but some people don't enjoy it. Now having to work on a new machine that is not true is aggravating.
This is a Cresent bandsaw.
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy11/bebrightwell/075_zps86413777.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

Every time I haven't purchased what I really wanted, I've regretted it...........Save a few more bucks, make yourself smile every time you use your new saw.........Rod

[Carl Beckett]

I tend to buy high end and exactly what I wanton tools I will use a lot. For ones that are only occasional, I choose to keep the $$ instead and go lower cost.

At the same time I can always find a bigger better more expensive model of just about anything (don't tell my wife this! She might get concerned...). So I appreciate and and grateful that I can buy any tools at all.

[Stephen Cherry]

For me, it's best to buy standard tools, with a known following. I've only ever sold a few machines, but I never lest my shirt on any of them.


There are machines out there that you can essentially own for free if you buy and sell used: Unisaw, 14" delta bandsaw, pm 66, etc. For example, I bought and sold my unisaw for about the same money. I now have a felder saw, which I could also get my money out of. I really do not need to make money on woodworking machines, but I don't want to loose any either.

That said, if you buy something pretty standard, of good quality, used, even if it's not your dream machine, you could use it for a while until your dream saw pops up.

[Ronald Blue]

I am in the camp that will anyone be able to tell what bandsaw you used on that masterpiece you just created? It still comes down to a personal choice and a decision. There is a Grizzly on eBay in your area worth a look. It's in Honaker Virginia but I don't know if it's remotely close enough to consider. It's a GO514X3 19" model. Just do a search for a Grizzly bandsaw and you will find it.

[Michael W. Clark]

Its largely a matter of personal choice where you spend your money. I have seen the Grizzly saws in the showroom and they do look great. However, I would not let a 10% discount influence a snap decision. There will be other sales and deals. I would evaluate them technically first, then see if the added cost justifies the difference based on your anticipated use.

I'm going through a similar quandry on a shaper, and it was driving me nuts. David on here helped me in the effort to first decide what I want. Now that I have figured out what I am looking for, it makes the process simpler.

Some of the others mentioned getting a 14" BS and waiting on another to come up. I did a similar thing on a jointer. I had a benchtop jointer when I first started. It was a major purchase for me at the time (young in my career, just moved, hadn't been married long, just getting serious about wwing, etc.). After a few years, I started to hate that jointer, noisy, fence not perperndicular, etc. My ideal would be 12" or larger old school jointer, but that is not in the cards now in terms of space. I bought an older Rockwell 37-220 6" floor model for less than $200. It is head and shoulders above the benchtop and I can sell it when I decide to upgrade and lose minimal/if any money.

The jointer was a "need" as it was affecting quality and my enjoyment of the hobby. The shaper is more of a "want" so I am more patient with my search. (Although my search was almost over until you bought the T3!:))

Mike

[Rich Riddle]

There is a Grizzly on eBay. It's a GO514X3 19" model.That's a 3 phase model. Thanks for the thought.

[Steve Keathley]

It's the old economic concept of utility. What's it worth to you, and what else do you need/want to do with your money? I'm in the market for a bandsaw, but I'm a hobbiest, and the utility I would get by buying a $2000 band saw versus a $1000 band saw wouldn't be worth it.

I could buy a new rod and reel for that.

But I'm not you and you're not me. You may be as passionate about woodworking as i am about fishing. Only you can decide where you lie on price/utility curve for bandsaws. That's why we have so many choices.

Good luck.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It's the old economic concept of utility. What's it worth to you, and what else do you need/want to do with your money? I'm in the market for a bandsaw, but I'm a hobbiest, and the utility I would get by buying a $2000 band saw versus a $1000 band saw wouldn't be worth it.

I could buy a new rod and reel for that.

But I'm not you and you're not me. You may be as passionate about woodworking as i am about fishing. Only you can decide where you lie on price/utility curve for bandsaws. That's why we have so many choices.

Good luck.

Well said Steve. You must really like fishing BTW...

[Mike Heidrick]

Dont settle, be patient, save cash, know the value of the tools you want so you can spot the deal, research actively and look for what you want, be ready to commit immediately, drive when you see the tool you want, be prepared to load/unload heavy tools and or run 3 phase equipment. Even at 37ysld I have my dream shop doing that and MUCH of it costs way less than what people have settled for when they bought new. No regrets is the name of the game. My Sawstop and Festool 150/3 might be my only MSRP full price tool purchases.

[Mike Tekin]

Rich,

Don't know if you have considered it, but the G0636 from Grizzly is one monster of a saw and with the 10% would lower the price some point. It is a big step up from the Hammer for a few hundred more shipped without applying the 10% so you are close to the Hammer to your door!

Also, As others have said, you can't ignore the fact that the Grizzly G0514.. series have a good record - Fine Woodworking contributors have reviewed them highly and at least editor owns one and has good feedback on it.

I am close enough to the Hammer location in Delaware to have spent a good amount of time looking at the Hammer saw and seeing it run to know it is a step above the G0514 in fit and finish but not performance and it is not a MM16 or a Laguna 16HD or GO636X. The Hammer's weight/mass is on the low side, sheet metal thickness is thinner, guide post thickness is smaller, and shaft bearings are smaller than the above mentioned G0636x, MM16, or 16HD. I don't mean to start trouble but just stating the facts and still consider the N4400 a fine saw, but it isn't in the league of the Italian saws or the grizzly G0636x.

I guess what I am saying is that I would get the G0514 series and be just as happy as if I bought a Hammer N4400, while saving several hundred dollars. If I had more money, then I would get the G0636x. Finally, I would get the N4400, MM16, or 16HD if the price was right used.

[Rich Riddle]

Mike,

I was patient, didn't bite the Grizzly 10% carrot despite being very tempted. Now we shall see if waiting pays off. If it would only hurry up, the wait wouldn't be nearly as difficult.

[Steve Keathley]

Well said Steve. You must really like fishing BTW...You should see how many posts I have on the fishing forum. :D

I am trying to up my game in the woodworking space though, so am really learning a lot from the Creekers. Great site.

[Rich Riddle]

There were lots of good ideas in this thread. After seeing the Veritas planes, I am going to "settle" for them instead of paying for Lie Nielsen planes in the future. Have any of you members "settled" for something that ended up being a great decision?

[Stephen Cherry]

There were lots of good ideas in this thread. After seeing the Veritas planes, I am going to "settle" for them instead of paying for Lie Nielsen planes in the future. Have any of you members "settled" for something that ended up being a great decision?

For planes, my 22 dollar primus plane works about as well as my LN #4.

[Bill Wyko]

In most cases, settling breeds regret for me. I do buy old hand planes, still has to be a good one though.