Casadei machines at woodcraft...has the USA woodworker reached maturity?

[Peter Quinn]

Just got an email flyer....casadei machines available at woodcraft. IME they are pretty serious equipment, don't know a thing about these particular machines. But it got me thinking. For them to be offered at woodcraft, is that an indication that euro combos and sliders have gone main stream? An indication of where the US tool market is headed or just an expirement at no cost to woodcraft? I wonder about lead times and stock on these items? Made to order JIT like Felder? Or ready to ship? Curious....

[David Kumm]

Hopefully Erik will chime in with the scoop. How do these machine fit into the SCM line with Minimax. Are they clones? What is different? Should be interesting. SCM owns both Casadei and Minimax. Dave

[Matt Meiser]

Never heard of them so I googled. Guess Woodcraft is going after the female market? http://www.neimanmarcus.com/category.jsp?itemId=cat29060731

Seriously, looks like Woodcraft isn't really "carrying" it as much as they are allowing people to order it from them and passing the order along to the manufacturer.

[Chris Padilla]

Casadei is pretty high-end: heavy, lottsa cast iron, beefy bearings, journals, etc. At least, that is what I've seen in the past.

[Peter Kelly]

Casadei / Busellato are part of Delmac Machinery Group which is in turn owned by SCM Group Italy. The traditional type woodworking machinery branded "Casadei" is identical to the MiniMax line. The older green coloured EMA/Demall/Casadei type machines aren't similar to the newer stuff.

[Darius Ferlas]

Never heard of them so I googled. Guess Woodcraft is going after the female market? http://www.neimanmarcus.com/category.jsp?itemId=cat29060731

Seriously, looks like Woodcraft isn't really "carrying" it as much as they are allowing people to order it from them and passing the order along to the manufacturer.

says this on the site:


Casadei 8.5' Table Saw with Scoring Blade, Model SC 30


Item #417559
This item will be in stock on March 1st.
Pre-order now for current pricing.

source (http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2085455/42349/Casadei-85-Table-Saw-with-Scoring-Blade-Model-SC-30.aspx)

[mreza Salav]

They have been available in Canada through CanadianWoodworker for a while. They look very similar to minimax machines from what I have seen.

[Peter Quinn]

Casadei / Busellato are part of Delmac Machinery Group which is in turn owned by SCM Group Italy. The traditional type woodworking machinery branded "Casadei" is identical to the MiniMax line. The older green coloured EMA/Demall/Casadei type machines aren't similar to the newer stuff.


The stuff listed on the Casadei Delmac site looks nothing like anything I've seen from minimax. More like maximax. 2000lbs planers, 9hp shapers, molders, CNC, 10' sliders. I'm not seeing the resemblance. My direct experience is with the old green stuff, and that is built like tanks. Heavy machinery for sure. In fact the new planers on the Casadei site look just like the old ones but with a new color scheme. They don't list any of the "woodcraft" machines on the casadei site, but that stuff sure looks like grey and orange minimax equipment to me. Not sure why they would opt to adopt an industrial brand name few may have heard of over a proven line most have heard of?

http://www.casadei-busellato.com/c-79-solid-wood- (http://www.casadei-busellato.com/c-79-solid-wood-classical.aspx)


So I've been going back and forth between the minimax, casadei, and wood craft web sites, seems there is truly more than a little family resemblance. Casadei seems to be the high end on jointers, planers, wide belts , a few others. Minimax seems to offer nearly the same machines in a different color, but with slightly less features, scaled back if you will. And the woodcraft machines look like dead ringers for minimax versions, different paint. Thats my impression anyway.

[Matt Meiser]

says this on the site:



source (http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2085455/42349/Casadei-85-Table-Saw-with-Scoring-Blade-Model-SC-30.aspx)




And if you read down about 4 more lines:
Ships Direct From Manufacturer. Click for Details.

And at the bottom:

This product ships direct from the manufacturer:


Your order will ship in approximately 5 business days.
This product is considered special order. Your account will be charged when you place your order.
Express or overnight shipping is not available for this product.
Ships by Ground to the 48 contiguous states. Cannot ship to Alaska, Hawaii, PO Boxes, APOs, US Territories, Canada or other foreign countries.



Return Information
For Casadei products not claimed by warranty or defect, a 15% or $500 restock fee will be applied, whichever is greater. A return authorization is required in all situations. Damage to machines as a result of shipping / handling will be handled by the Casadei Logistics Department in coordination with the carrier involved. Before delivery, the customer will receive instructions for properly inspecting a machine when it arrives and documenting the damage if found. The instructions will also explain who to contact and the contact numbers.


So basically, you place your order and Woodcraft runs your card and says "see you around."

[Darius Ferlas]

So basically, you place your order and Woodcraft runs your card and says "see you around."
What can I say.
You blew me out of the water.

[Peter Quinn]

And if you read down about 4 more lines:
Ships Direct From Manufacturer. Click for Details.

And at the bottom:

This product ships direct from the manufacturer:


Your order will ship in approximately 5 business days.
This product is considered special order. Your account will be charged when you place your order.
Express or overnight shipping is not available for this product.
Ships by Ground to the 48 contiguous states. Cannot ship to Alaska, Hawaii, PO Boxes, APOs, US Territories, Canada or other foreign countries.



Return Information
For Casadei products not claimed by warranty or defect, a 15% or $500 restock fee will be applied, whichever is greater. A return authorization is required in all situations. Damage to machines as a result of shipping / handling will be handled by the Casadei Logistics Department in coordination with the carrier involved. Before delivery, the customer will receive instructions for properly inspecting a machine when it arrives and documenting the damage if found. The instructions will also explain who to contact and the contact numbers.


So basically, you place your order and Woodcraft runs your card and says "see you around."


But thats a similar arrangement to almost any machine you will buy at woodcraft. Check the powermatic table saw or planer. Drop ships from powermatic, powermatic responsible for the warranty. Granted they aren't as specific with restocking fees and such. I'm guessing if a PM2000 shows up at your house with a broken trunion and you bought it from woodcraft, woodcraft doesn't want it back? I'm really wondering if you can expect the average retail location to have one on display. That would be a significant difference from "just a place to place your order. Then they have become a dealership in my mind. My local woodcraft has a selection of powermatic, general, sawstop, rikon, and a few other machines you can touch and see in person. Such a nice way to get information about a product. Will they make space on the floor for high end euro machinery?

Powermatic saw fine print---powermatic actually charges a HIGHER restocking fee should you return it.

Return Information
All returns must be pre-approved. Any non-warranty returns must be unused and in original packaging. A 25% restock fee will apply. Customer pays return freight. Please call our Customer Service Dept. at 1-800-535-4482 with any return questions.

Warranty Information
Because this item is purchased and shipped directly from the manufacturer, their warranty supersedes any offered by Woodcraft. Click here for Powermatic Warranty (http://www.woodcraft.com/dropship/POWWarrantyInfo.pdf)


California Residents: Click here for Proposition 65 information. (http://www.woodcraft.com/Static/prop65.htm)

[Matt Meiser]

For some things yes, others no. If you dig on Woodcraft.com there's a ton of stuff on there that's direct-ship only that no store will ever stock, know the first thing about, or probably even be competitive on price-wise. My Woodcraft would have to wipe out their whole power tool display area to display that slider. They sell enough Sawstops to order them at least 2 at a time and always have them in stock. Would they ever sell one of these? Hard to say, but I bet they could display stuff that generates a lot more profit per square foot.

[Erik Loza]

Those are built by us. Funny, I had no clue that an online outlet was going to be selling them.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

Those are built by us. Funny, I had no clue that an online outlet was going to be selling them.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

If a few are in stores and seen it might be good publicity for you. Seems like the company could have given you a heads up though. Dave

[Erik Loza]

If a few are in stores and seen it might be good publicity for you. Seems like the company could have given you a heads up though. Dave

Yeah, but that retailer knows nothing about us and certainly wouldn't mention our name, anyway, since technically it is competition. Just to be clear, those Casadei machines are not being imported by us. They are coming from some other vendor, I have no idea who. The worry I have for prospective customers is the whole "logitics/warranty/service"-thing. I wonder how that retailer would handle it?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Adank]

I too, received the same email announcing Woodcraft would be distributing the Casadei SC30 saw. I must say, It kind of got my attention mainly because the current price is somewhere between a Hammer K3 and a Felder k500. I really would like a Felder but can't justify spending $9,500 or more for hobby use. The Hammer K3 price of $4,999 is a little easier to come to grips with but I am always left with the desire to find something just a little more robust but haven't found it until this email. It appeared to me that moving from the Hammer to something a little beefier increased the price $4,000 to $5,000. Price wise, and on the surface only, this saw appears to provide a third option. I know nothing about the quality or after sales service of this saw. I sent an email to Woodcraft asking if they plan on having any of these saws on display at any of their stores. I agree with Matt in how much floor space this saw would take up in the store but can they really expect customers to lay out that kind of cash for a saw they can never see before they buy it? I don't know the answer to that question. A woodworker might. I finally laid eyes in the Felder K3 last weekend at the woodworking show. I'm glad I did. It appears to be a nice quality hobbyist sliding table saw. I was kind of leaning towards the Hammer but after seeing the Casadei, I would like to research it a little more. Problem is, I can't find any reviews on this saw. I looked at the specs but it would be nice to have someone point out their qualities or strong points and also where they stand when compared to Hammer, Minimax or Felder.

Erik's point about the service end of things is a valid point. I thought I read that Casadei has a new distributor or has set up a business in North Carolina or somewhere down south. Maybe that would improve some things on the service end bit I have no idea.

[Jeff Duncan]

Those are built by us. Funny, I had no clue that an online outlet was going to be selling them.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Erik, so how are the new machines in comparison to the older? The older Casadei/Ema machines I would have put in the same class as SCM in terms build, while maybe not quite as refined? Where does Casadei fit in nowadays....are the newer ones comparable to SCM, or to Minimax?

JeffD

[Robert LaPlaca]

Yeah, but that retailer knows nothing about us and certainly wouldn't mention our name, anyway, since technically it is competition. Just to be clear, those Casadei machines are not being imported by us. They are coming from some other vendor, I have no idea who. The worry I have for prospective customers is the whole "logitics/warranty/service"-thing. I wonder how that retailer would handle it?



I couldn't agree more, currently the whole SCM/Minimax service situation seems dysfunctional, not sure that this situation would make it any better..

[Erik Loza]

Erik, so how are the new machines in comparison to the older? The older Casadei/Ema machines I would have put in the same class as SCM in terms build, while maybe not quite as refined? Where does Casadei fit in nowadays....are the newer ones comparable to SCM, or to Minimax?

JeffD

Jeff, the machines that retailer is selling are our FS30 Smart, our FS41 Classic, and some variant of the SC4 Elite. Those are manufactured by us. The bigger Classical machines you are thinking of, such as 10' sliders and so on, are still manufactured by Casadei.


I couldn't agree more, currently the whole SCM/Minimax service situation seems dysfunctional, not sure that this situation would make it any better..

Is there a specific issue you need help with, Robert? Call or email me if so and I will see what I can do.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[John Adank]

Below is the response I received back from Woodcraft when. Asked if this saw will be on display at any stores:

Thank you for your inquiry. It would be up to the individual stores as
to whether or not they want to have this in their store. For more
information on the saw itself you can contact the manufacturer at the
link below.
http://www.casadei-busellato.com/

[Mike Tekin]

I will tell you that most stores won't put this on the showroom floor. The margins on power tools/machinery is not worth it to the store owners, especially at these price points to stock this.

It's nice to see another choice for quality European machinery and it looks like the regional office is out of North Carolina.

The ironic thing, which Erik pointed out, is that the Planer/Jointers aren't even on Casadei's website. Why go to the hassle of ordering through Woodcraft when you can go to MiniMax for these planer/jointers??

[Peter Kelly]

The machines are on the Italian site just not the American Delmac Group one. http://casadeibusellato.it/it/prodotti_prodotti

Not a knock against Woodcraft but I don't know why anyone would buy anything from them unless you prefer paying higher prices than Amazon, CPO, etc. If the Casadei stuff isn't in the showrooms where people can see the build quality I can't imagine they'll move a whole lot of product.

[Jim Matthews]

This scenario doesn't pass the smell test.

It reminds me of the way Woodcraft corporate attempted to "negotiate" a better rate from Lie Nielsen after the LN product drew floor traffic into their franchise locations.
The Woodriver hand plane roll-out felt much the same as the appearance of these products on their website; an endrun around the venodor that built the business.

Small wonder so many of the franchises fail.

[John Adank]

Looks like you could order directly from Casadei in North Carolina also. The rep from the company said he could email me a quote. The Minimaxe SC4 Elite and Casadei SC30 look like the same machine but the rep from Casadei never mentioned that they were. I was told Casadei has 24 hour parts available at the service center in Atlanta GA. They also provide technical support over the phone. He also said they lacked presence in the hobbyist and small shop market until recently when the partnered with Woodcraft. They compete very well with Felder and Minimax in features, quality and price according to the rep.

[Erik Loza]

John, LOL, that "service center" in Atlanta is us. In other words, if you need parts for one of those machines, it would seem that you would be calling SCM Parts or SCM Service, not the retailer you purchased it from nor apparently their headquarters.

I don't want to get into this here in the boards but if anyone wants a complete explanation about what those machines actually are, they are welcome to email me at eloza-at-scmgroup-dot-com.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

I have ordered Casadei parts and they do indeed come from Parts Pronto at SCM. Basucakky you will be buying MM stuff badged Casadei and giving up the MM support. Not sure i get the business plan there. Dave

[John Adank]

Yeah, I kind thought that may be the case. Ordering from them directly is actually ordering through Woodcraft.

[Peter Quinn]

Not sure how this situation came to be. In this multinational commerce era we are in establishing a brand and maintaining that brand identity seems critical to most commercial enterprise large and small. I can't see how the Casadei parternership with woodcraft does the SCM brand any good? If you want to know something about a minimax machine it's not hard to find good answers quick. Walk into a woodcraft, IME it's a craps shoot at best IME. I'm not going to buy a car from my local shoe salesman, I'm certainly not going to buy expensive wood working machinery from an equally unqualified source. You need a trained sales force behind your product to promote your corporate image or it ceases to be in your control. Guess this discussion raises a few questions in my mind regarding now such a sales partnership was allowed to happen. Increase your market presence? Great. But procede with caution.

[Jeff Duncan]

Peter, I'll throw out a couple thoughts off the top of my head that may or may not be applicable. First off the industrial machine industry has taken a pretty big hit over the last few years. We've seen some big companies like Holzher bite the dust, and others may be just managing to hang on? As a CEO one must try to find ways to expand the market when one avenue dries up. Now I don't know if this particular approach will prove valuable or not, but it may be a gamble. I also don't know the position of SCM and their many companies, though I would think they would likely fair better than many due to their target audiences. So another possibility may be just a poor decision at the higher levels of the company.....which in my mind is the more likely scenario:confused:

JeffD

[David Kumm]

On the other hand, if some stores carry a machine on the floor and put them in their literature it might open up a new market. Many woodworkers have had no experience or even seen a higher end Euro machine. The exposure might help to expand the number of people who realize that every machine isn't sourced from Asia. Hopefully it will lead them to do their homework and look at Minimax or Felder. Dave

[daniel lane]

On the other hand, if some stores carry a machine on the floor and put them in their literature it might open up a new market. Many woodworkers have had no experience or even seen a higher end Euro machine. The exposure might help to expand the number of people who realize that every machine isn't sourced from Asia. Hopefully it will lead them to do their homework and look at Minimax or Felder. Dave

David,

I admit that I'm (sort of) one of those people. I've recently been interested in learning more about sliders/Euro machines, although I admit it's the beginning of what will probably be a couple of years worth of analysis followed by eventual paralysis. For the most part, I've stayed away from discussions of these types of equipment because they didn't apply to me at all, but I have often considered a SS as next saw purchase. Lately, I've started wondering about these instead of SS, but don't know enough about them to really frame that question properly.

I'd love to see one on the floor somewhere to examine it, but since I live at least 3 hours from the nearest Rockler, Woodcraft, or other, I'll just keep browsing the ol' interwebses to see what I can glean.


daniel