Picture Framing joining tools???

[John Miliunas]

So LOML has decided she likes doing watercolors. She's also drug out a bunch of older artwork and pictures. Yours truly has been volunteered to make frames said articles. (Imagine that!:rolleyes: ) Anyhow, I've been looking around at the different systems out there and figured I would tap into the vast knowledgebase known worldwide as SMC!:D Any of you folks use such a system? Which one(s)? Pro's? Con's? Or is there really a better/easier way of doing it? I've done a number of frames, but this is starting to sound like she's going to be decorating houses across the US! (She has 5 brothers/sisters, etc...!) This is new territory for me, so any info, suggestions, tips, etc... would be greatly appreciated!:) :cool:

[Jim Becker]

The person you want to respond to this thread is Andy London...picture frames ARE his business!

[Tim Morton]

Hey John, at work I use an underpinner with a glue called "CornerWeld". The underpinner is nothing more than a jig and a pneumatic nailer that fires from below and pins a wavy nauil to join the frame. Ours is a mitre-mite VN+2. They sell for about the cost of a used uni.:D You might want to look into the glue at least. Not sure if you can justify a full blown underpinner.

[John Miliunas]

Hey John, at work I use an underpinner with a glue called "CornerWeld". The underpinner is nothing more than a jig and a pneumatic nailer that fires from below and pins a wavy nauil to join the frame. Ours is a mitre-mite VN+2. They sell for about the cost of a used uni.:D You might want to look into the glue at least. Not sure if you can justify a full blown underpinner.

Gee thanks, Tim!:eek: Naw, NOT ready for THAT type of investment! Looks like I'll have a fair amount of them to do, but not professionally. I did, however, see that Logon (I think) has an underpinner, which is manual and uses the typical "V" nails. That still may be a bit more than I want to spend. Thinking more along the lines of *maybe* a BenchMaster or similar. I really don't believe I'd need anything more than that and could probably get along with less.:) :cool:

[Corey Hallagan]

Hey, that is cool John! Can't help you on making frames, it is one thing you would have thought I might have made, as I spent alot of years in artist groups, oil and acrylic painting. Watercolor is a very difficult medium to master and control. My hats off to her. A simple water color is somehting I can sure appreciate. Just besure to leave room for a mat and glass as they should be framed under glass, matted and sealed on the back to prevent moisture from ruining the painting down the road.

Corey

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for the tips, Corey! Yup, looking into some mat cutting system, as well. Again, I just can't justify the high-end Fletchers or something like that for a non-business effort, but would like something decent and reasonably easy to use. All of my previous mat cutting has been done with a simple mat cutter and ruler!:eek: I did score a FrameMaster point setter for a decent price at an auction this last weekend, so it's a start. Of course, got the rest of the wood processing equipment already, including my nice W&H molder, so I'm concentrating on the assembly/finishing touches for the frames.:)

Yeah, she just started in with the watercolor thing, though she is much more artistically talented than I am! Her very first "real" piece turned out extremely well, copying a postcard from Hawaii. Very realistic, I've got to admit!:) So, hopefully, my hobby can assist in helping her enjoy her hobby. Works for me!:D :cool:

[Dev Emch]

Hi John....
This sounds like an opportunity. You need to get a LION trimmer and or a stanley shooting plane and shooting block. Both are awsome toys for the woodshop and do a great job on frames.

I believe that Lou actually pointed out that the trimmer is still used today and that there are special modern verions of the same trimmer used only in pro frame shops.

[Roy Wall]

John,

Sounds like you'll need a Mitered shooting board and a nice LN #62........

[Dale Thompson]

Hey Spring,
Now that I'm back to 90% of my typical 3% physical condition, I hope that I can help. I've been doing a LOT of frames lately to hold those 1/4" plywood portraits that I've been doing recently. All things considered, I've been using 1 1/8" thick stock to accomodate the glass, plywood and backing. I usually cut the width to about 1 3/8" and rout it as the spirit moves. ;)

What's the bit about saving money? Do you have a flat tire on one of those gangster Rolls Royces and need a bigger jack to hold up the straight twelve engine for the front end? :D Anyway, I've had good and quick results from applying yellow glue to both surfaces of the miter, aligning and clamping the joint with one of those hermaphrodite welding clamps that comes with the Kreig Pocket Hole System (I think that they are sold separately in several sizes) and shooting a couple of 1 3/8" brads into the joint. To avoid splitting, don't get too close to the corner and don't line up the brads to avoid any twisting in the joint. Also, depending on the size of stock that you are using, don't go overboard with the length of the brads. If they are too long, they will catch a grain and "curl" out on you. Don't be afraid to crank up the pressure on the brad nailer. Bury those babies and a bit of "filler" will make the holes vanish.

One other thing, if you are going to be making a lot of frames, get a Framemaster ($90) and a box "framing" points ($20). I got totally ticked with trying to push those Glaziers points into oak with a putty knife or a screwdriver. Not only do those shoulders curl up and potentially scratch the wall of the recipient but it REALLY hurts when the tool slips and gets buried between your thumb and index finger. :eek: When I first got the Framemaster from Woodworker's Supply I thought that I had paid $90 for a $20 tool. When I used it, however, I would have paid $200 for it without even a second thought.

Lastly, old buddy, old pal, old master of ALL powered and unpowered tools and all fibrous materials that grow in our universe, I'm really in a very weakened condition after my recent surgery. :( I've got about two days of sanding left before I complete this table/cabinet that I am making. Do you think that maybe you could grab a lift on one of your Gulfsteams and sort of take the pressure off of an old invalid? Besides, I've got "Nurse-Duty" for the next couple of days! :cool: :)

Dale T.

[Dan Forman]

John---I did custom picture framing for a couple of years out of my house. I never did have a v-nail frame joiner, just put the moulding in a miter vise and nailed the frame with one or two 18 ga brads on each corner, using a small hammer, nailpunched, and filled. They are now making hand operated v-nailers in the $200-$300 range. I would recommend forgoing that, however, and investing in the best mat cutter you can afford. Logan makes several home models. I have the big Fletcher-Terry commercial cutter, so can't give any direct feedback on the Logan, though it seems to be what most folks use.

The best place I have found for art materials is Art Supply Warehouse, here is a link http://www.aswexpress.com/ . They have some of the framing materials too.

I would suggest getting one of their catalogs so that you can see what the stuff looks like. I just tried to find some links to some framing tools, but they don't have pictures on the website.

Your wife will like the prices on art materials too, BIG savings over retail, especially on WC paper in 25 sheet pkgs, and paints, brushes, and, well, just about everything. I am an artist too, and this is where I do most of my business for art materials. For framing stuff, there are a couple of wholesale places right here in town.

The key things you will want to have are:

Mat cutter--spend most of your money on this. If the wife keeps on painting, it will get a lot of use.

Miter vise of some sort--holds your moulding for glue ups and allows you to nail the corners while still in the vise. If you use a brad gun, go with the shorter nails, 3/4 " to 1" is what I use in most cases. The glue will do most of the holding, the nail is just there for backup, and to hold the frame together while the glue is drying. Here is a link to the sort of thing that I use http://www.framingsupplies.com/Castironmitervise.htm I'm not familiar with this site, but they seem to have lots of stuff, including some very nice machinery.

You can cut your moulding on the table saw, or miter saw, just use a good, sharp blade. I true the miters up on a hand cranked disc sanding wheel, with a 45 degree fence. I was doing the framing before I had a saw, so would buy the mouldings chopped to size. They very seldom came out true from the supplier.

glass cutter-- a simple one will do.

Adhesive transfer tape--a double stick adhesive film (like a very thin solid rubber cement) to hold mats together if you do double mats. Don't use this on the artwork itself! They make guns to apply the tape with which make things very much easier. ATG= adhesive transfer gun The tape is sometimes referred to as ATG tape.

Self stick acetate "corners" to mount the watercolors onto the backing board, the easiest way to mount artwork, esp WC, as the paper is nice and stiff, so won't sag, and mounting is completely reversible.

You will want to get yourself a good book on picture framing, try your local library first. If you have any questions, feel free to give me a call, will PM you with my number. I find talking a lot easier than typing. I will be able to give you some specific product names, once I dig them out from the basement.

Oh, and by the way, I'm a recovering Cheesehead (Oshkosh)!

Dan

[Andy London]

John, do you plan to do a few or take this up as a hobby business? Lee valley sells a manual V nailer that works good in softwoods and some of the softer hardwoods. For production I use what is called a thumb nailer, however they have a stiff price tag. Under pinners are great also however if you are using very hard woods, especially exotics, the pinners do not perform well.

Here is a lnk for a company I used to buy a lot of equipment from, I only say used to as I haven't had anything break down, the motor on the CH Thumbnailer is made by Porter Cable.

http://www.framingsupplies.com/

http://www.picframer.ca/images/ThumbnailMaster.jpg

Years ago starting out I purchased a matte cutter from Lee Valley, the Simplex by Fletcher, I have since upgraded to a high end CH model but still use the Simplex from time to time. It has cut thousands of matte's for me and still works perfect, it is the best bang for the buck out there...IMO Make sure you stick with acid free matte's, Crescent has the best prices however I use Bainbridge matte's....initial investment in framing can get pretty crazy, if you can pick up a few artists it will ease the pain ;)

Here is an article I wrote on cutting glass:

http://www.picframer.ca/cutting_glass.htm

And one on Framing in general:

http://www.picframer.ca/framingart.htm

Framing is my shops primary business, we supply a number of art galleries and close to a hundred artists. It's really good money (profit wise) and the framing shops won't be able to touch your prices but as I mentioned it's a big initial investment, well it can be. I started out with the basics, lucked into a few big contracts and jept reinvesting what I made, took about two years to get fully setup and it's a lot of fun!

I advertise at 6 local University's....now that is really good $$$$, aside from framing their certificates and grad pictures, I am amazed at the amount of framing jobs we receive from students, no wonder their parents are broke!

If you have any questions at all, ask away or better yet, drop over to the shop :D

Andy

[John Hart]

John,

I want to thank you for starting this thread. You've asked all my questions...and HOLY COW! You sure got answers! :)

[John Miliunas]

John,

I want to thank you for starting this thread. You've asked all my questions...and HOLY COW! You sure got answers! :)

John, you're welcome! I'm happy I asked, as well!:D

As for the rest of you guys, man, you're all just over the top!!! Phenomenal information! I've got lots and LOTS to digest here!:)

Dale, I picked up a FrameMaster at that auction last weekend ($45.00) and ordered some points from LV the other day. You're right...That thing is worth it, even if I had paid full price for it!:D I've been using the brad method, although on a recent wide frame, I drilled a pocket hole in each corner! Man, did that work nicely to tighten everything up!

Dev & Roy, would my most recent acquisition (LN#164) do ok for shooting the miters??? I've also got the LV LA Jack w/both irons. That do???

Dan, the hand-operater V-nailer is precisely what I was looking at. The BenchMaster II Kit was like $179.00 or thereabouts. One of the reasons I'm looking at something like that is due to the condition of my hands (arthritis). The fewer motions I have to do in order to make a corner (anything, for that matter), the better off I am!:) Anyhow, you've offered up some great advice and super links! I think I'll try to absorb some of the info here, but if I should have further ???'s, I'll drop you a PM for your phone # and take you up on that offer, as well!!! BTW, I wish you the very best in your attempted "recovery"! I've often thought of moving to a more "climate-friendly" state, but the Cheesehead withdrawal would certainly by a real tough part of any move!!!:D

Andy, even more useful info! Man, I wish I'd have had the bucks last weekend! The auction we went to was a small cabinet shop/framing shop!!! Yup, they had one of those Thumbnail units there, as well as the high-end Fletcher mat cutters (both, straight and oval) and insundrious other framing items. I'm glad I got outta' there with the FrameMaster at a decent price. I'm sure the rest of the stuff went at a good $$$, but too high for my budget/needs. I only plan on doing this for family, gifts and such. If it should ever "take off" to a small side business, I'll look into the higher end equipment. For now, I'm going to try and keep it pretty low key. Thanks for the tips and leads. As I said, lots for this little pea-brain to try and absorb!:) :cool:

[Dale Thompson]

Hey Spring,
GREAT post as is usual for you! OK - enough accolades. ;) Dan, from out in the Great Northwest, mentioned that you may wish to visit a library? All of you intaleckchewals call them "Learning Resource Centers" I just want you to know that we have a real live "LIBRARY" here in Peshtigo and you are welcome anytime!! :) :)

The first time that I went over there, I found a book with a lot of "pics" and not many words in it. It was the kind of book that you and Viking Howl would enjoy. I took it up to the Liberryan an splained dat I had know liberry kard. She sayed dat, "You don't need a library card". I axed her what waz da depozit? She sayed, "Nothing". Now, I am reeely cunfuzed! :confused: I says, "know kard, know depozit? How do ya no dat I wil git it bak to your liberry?" She simple asked, "Sir, are you going to bring the book back?" Of course I said, "Absulutally!"

Her reply was classic. "Sir, if you are going to bring the book back then why do I need to see your library card or ask you for a deposit?"

Man - I'm STILL chewing on that one and wondering what the heck has happened to our society! :confused: :eek:

Dale T.

[Roy Wall]

John, you're welcome! I'm happy I asked, as well!:D

As for the rest of you guys, man, you're all just over the top!!! Phenomenal information! I've got lots and LOTS to digest here!:)


Dev & Roy, would my most recent acquisition (LN#164) do ok for shooting the miters??? I've also got the LV LA Jack w/both irons. That do???



Yes......you have the tools....probably better off with the LV LA jack because of the longer sole before (mainly) & after the blade - will give you more accurate (straight) trimming. But I imagine the #164 can be used for thinner width frames and just a change of pace (and tool acquisition justification):cool: .

[Rob Littleton]

Did you see this months edition of Wood magazine? There are some nice frames in there with some pretty creative (for me anyways) ways of putting them together.

I do a lot of frames and would like to do more the local competition is pretty intense.

Anyhoo, check out the mag.

FWIW

[Jules Dominguez]

Woodsmith Issue No. 60, December 1988 is about picture frame moldings, and has designs for several different moldings which can be produced with common router bits. The issue includes a design for a jig which can be used for cutting the miters on a table saw. The single jig, which is a sled-type thing, provides for cutting both miters on each piece of a frame, and cutting multiple frame pieces the exact same length with one simple setup for each length.

I made one back in '89 and still use it when I have one or more frames to make for myself or family or friends. It's fairly easy to construct it so that it makes accurate matching miter cuts and it works well. I'd include a picture of it but I haven't learned how to do that yet and it's too late at night for me to want to try.

[Allan Johanson]

Here's another thought for the pile....take a hobby picture framing class through your local continuing education classes (night school). I took one and learned a ton. It was being taught through a local biz that runs a picture framing school and past students can drop in and use their gear like a "U-frame-it" place anytime in the future. So you can use their high-end Fletcher or C+H gear for a very low hourly fee ($4 Canadian/hr or two items for the food bank). Students also get discounts on supplies for framing projects. If you've never framed a needlepoint before, they show you how to do that, etc. All part of the package. Sweet deal.

Maybe there is something similar in your area?

I also happened to be in the right place at the right time and picked up a used C+H Advantage Pro mat cutter for 1/4 retail. I jumped on that!

For making frames, I use my PC 557 biscuit joiner with the FF biscuits to reinforce the mitres. If the FF biscuit is too large on a narrow frame, I let it extend past the inside of the frame and cut the excess off. I'm not keen on filling nail holes.

I really enjoy picture framing and have done some fun things. My favourite project so far was for a 427 Cobra. These cars had a traditional blue w/white stripes paint job and I made the mat reflect that. Dark blue suede with two white stripes. It took a while to do, but it's definitely worth it to me.

Cheers,

Allan

[John Miliunas]

Jules, I may try to look up that issue, though I do have a JointTech SmartMiter sled, which I have found to be dead on for miters and the material stop on it extends out to @40". Having said that, I'm always open to new jigs and better ways of doing things! Thanks!:)

Allan, it certainly sounds like you've got a sweet deal going there! Sadly, I've not seen such classes in our area and any of the extension classes in Spring Green are very limited, at best. According to my daughter, MY shop is better equipped than the school shop, which is shared between Middle & High school! Seeing as to how this is primarily a farming community, I think that is actually kind of sad. :( Still, I appreciate the suggestions!!!:) BTW, nice job on the Cobra matting! Really like the multiple mats and it truly sets off the car nicely!!!:)

At any rate, so far, I'm kind of leaning toward the following: For mat cutting, the Logan Model #450 w/optional glass cutter. After talking to LOML, I doubt I'd be doing anything larger than the 40.5" capacity of that one. For joining, I think I might go ahead and opt for the Benchmaster II. Whatdya' guys think? Workable? FWIW, I am leaning away from the brads through the sides of the frame. Been there, done that, blew too many out! LOML likes hard and figured type woods and those brads just seem to have a mind of their own!:o Thanks again for all your valuable info and insights! You guys are THE BEST!:D :cool:

[Tim Morton]

Sounds like you have a nice plan john!! As for the size limitation of 40.5", that is not a problem because mat board is standard at 32x40. Go any bigger and it gets very expensive. I buy nice 4ply archival mat for 8 bucks a sheet, retail will be double that and it ads up quick. Don't waste your money on anything thinner than 4ply, the savings are not great and it looks like crap. I'm not sure it will be worthwhile for you to cut your own glass unless you think you will be doing enough volume. If so, you can order a case of 30x42 museum quality glass and then cut it down from there. That gives you room for your standard sizes without being too bulky to handle. I would get one of those metal trash cans and label it glass only..you do not want any accidents. Good luck and lock into buying a bottle of cornerweld...it is stronger than titebond and dries clear. another tip when you are at your framing supply store..talk to the sales person about a kit to paint the insides of the miters...makes any offsets almost invisible.

[John Miliunas]

Sounds like you have a nice plan john!! As for the size limitation of 40.5", that is not a problem because mat board is standard at 32x40. Go any bigger and it gets very expensive. I buy nice 4ply archival mat for 8 bucks a sheet, retail will be double that and it ads up quick. Don't waste your money on anything thinner than 4ply, the savings are not great and it looks like crap. I'm not sure it will be worthwhile for you to cut your own glass unless you think you will be doing enough volume. If so, you can order a case of 30x42 museum quality glass and then cut it down from there. That gives you room for your standard sizes without being too bulky to handle. I would get one of those metal trash cans and label it glass only..you do not want any accidents. Good luck and lock into buying a bottle of cornerweld...it is stronger than titebond and dries clear. another tip when you are at your framing supply store..talk to the sales person about a kit to paint the insides of the miters...makes any offsets almost invisible.

Great info, Tim!!! Any recommended suppliers for the mat board and/or glass? I think I will try to cut my own glass when I can. I find that local hardware stores charge quite the premium for it! I've cut a lot of my own glass, including double-strength, so I know I can do it. With a guide system, it would be better yet. :) Hey, what's the skinny on this kit to paint the insides of miters????:confused: That's a new one on me!:) :cool:

[Mark Singer]

John,

I have made quite a few. I use the Lee Valley frame clamp. Buy extra rods if you plan to do large frames. I use a pin nailer or brad nailer and West Systems Epoxy if there is not much profile. The rabbet waste makes good stop material and a shoulder plane is helpful on the rabbet. I used to use 16d sinkers a my big Vaughn....it is really weird , even if you blunt the end of the 16d it will occasionaly split the wood:eek:

[John Miliunas]

I used to use 16d sinkers a my big Vaughn....it is really weird , even if you blunt the end of the 16d it will occasionaly split the wood:eek:

Just "occassionally", huh? One of these days, you're going to drop that Vaughn on your toe :eek: and you'll quit kidding about it!:D :) :cool:

Anyhow, I've been using Titebond. I pre-glue the mitered ends with a thin layer of glue and let it dry nicely. If needed just ONE swipe with a blocked piece of sandpaper and then continue with the glue-up. It works, but I would just like to find a bit quicker system with consistent results.:) Hmmm....16d's would've held the last one I made quite nicely! Ahhh, but it was Maple w/Purpleheart inlay. Bet it woulda' split out!:D :cool:

[Roger Bell]

My wife went off a similar direction as yours several years ago with framing collectable prints and engravings and later into framing her own oil paintings. After paying a few hundred bucks for professional framing services, I was convinced we could do just about as good work by buying our own tools and having at it. It seems like you are at this point. The do it yourself approach also gave her an appreciation for woodworking and for tools and garnered her support for my tool acquisition program by giving her a bit of a stake in it.

We have the Logan Simplex mat cutter. We wasted some money on a cheap unit or two (Altos brand, as I recall) that ended up at the Goodwill. The Simplex does good enough-for-the-money work and is not junk. We use hand miter saws for cutting (Stanley 358 miterbox). We started with a Nobex, but it now sits idle. And a Lion (USA) trimmer. The miters must be flawless. Another worthwhile investment. Framing point driver is also essential.

We use mostly storebought pre-stained MDF framing materials. If a thicker Arts and Crafts style "mirror-style" frame is needed, I build it myself in the shop. For the MDF material, simple hand driven brads, yellow glue and a pair of Stanley framing vises is sufficient and cheap. Again, we wanted to keep things simple enough and cheap enough consistent with an end product exhibiting reasonable craftsmanship.

We found that the biggest money saver was to set up commercial accounts with framing supply outfits and to get our supplies wholesale. There appears to be a huge markup from wholesale to retail, particularly for matboard. We got a $200 business license, set up the accounts, and then let the license lapse upon renewal. We made no "profit", but the savings paid for itself almost right away. The biggest continuing costs are in mat board, glass and supplies. Compared to that, the tools are cheap.

[Tim Morton]

Great info, Tim!!! Any recommended suppliers for the mat board and/or glass? I think I will try to cut my own glass when I can. I find that local hardware stores charge quite the premium for it! I've cut a lot of my own glass, including double-strength, so I know I can do it. With a guide system, it would be better yet. :) Hey, what's the skinny on this kit to paint the insides of miters????:confused: That's a new one on me!:) :cool:

Alot of the framing supply stores will only sell to you if you frame for the public, but I think you can get around that by telling them that is your intention as a profesional woodworker who is "broadening" your services. I have heard of people using Don-Mar, but I don't think they get out your way. The painting kit I was talking about is nothing more than many different colors to best match the frame you are using. I paint a bout 1/8" in on the miter in case I'm off a scoshe when pinning. Nothing worse than seeing white maple peeking though on a dark frame. you don't need to be off by muchto have it show. Now granted we order our molding prechopped and only join it ourselves. You will be doing the staining yourself so depending on when you stain this may not be needed. Call these guys and maybe they can help you out.
http://www.framerica.com/

[John Hulett]

John,

One thing I haven't seen suggested here is a method David Marks used on his show when he built the "Guilded Picture Frame." He used shop-made splines, cutting the slots for the splines on his TS w/ a jig. Seems simple enough...

http://www.diynet.com/diy/ww_decorative_furnishings/article/0,2049,DIY_14441_3226671,00.html

- John

[John Miliunas]

John,

One thing I haven't seen suggested here is a method David Marks used on his show when he built the "Guilded Picture Frame." He used shop-made splines, cutting the slots for the splines on his TS w/ a jig. Seems simple enough...

http://www.diynet.com/diy/ww_decorative_furnishings/article/0,2049,DIY_14441_3226671,00.html

- John

Thanks John. I hadn't seen that link before, but have utilized splines like that on both, frames and shadowboxes. It adds a real nice touch to the frame and I'll surely use it again. But, for me, those are reserved for the more "special" frames! :) :cool:

[Zahid Naqvi]

So why hasn't anyone mentioned a simple mitredjoint yet, a single slice of 1/8" would suffice to strengthen a picture frame. I keep thinking about making picture frames but don't want to invest in any exclusive picture framing gear. Keyed mitre joints seem like a viable option to cosider. Enquiring minds want to know.

[Steve Cox]

One tool I have have used that worked really well. Here they are:

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3860&refcode=05INFROO

Fast and easy to use and really effective.

[Steve Cox]

The keyed miter joints work well also. I have seen a couple of sources refer to these as "slip feathers".

[Dan Forman]

John---Might be worth a trip to Madison to look at and try out some equipment. Many art supply stores are beginning to carry consumer level framing supplies. Better call a few places first though.

I hate to cast a pall over your enthusiasm for this project, but you might want to try out a mat cutter and see how it feels to your hand. The act of cutting does place a certain amount of stress on the hand, don't know whether that would aggravate your arthritis or not. Of course if it did, the wife could take over that part of the operation.

That Benchmaster 2 looks like a pretty good unit. Just make sure it is capable of driving v-nails into the sorts of woods you are intending to use. Most commercial mouldings tend to be soft, lighter woods, with oak probably being the hardest.

I never had a problem with brads, but I would always pre drill and drive them with a small hammer. Filling the holes was always a pain though.

Here is the phone of a very good wholesale supplier, but you would need a tax number and a business name to purchase. They don't have a website.

It looks like this place doesn't require a tax number. http://www.framingsupplies.com/index.html They have an option for shipping matboard where you can mix mats with foamcore which makes very good backing boards, and is very light, so you wouldn't have to order so many mats, which are relatively expensive. You just have to order enough to fill the box. This is to prevent damage in shipping. Be sure to get the archival cotton rag mats, the cheaper paper "buffered acid free" variety will eventually degrade and damage the artwork.

You might just find that mats are best purchased at retail locally, as you will be able to choose the colors in person, and save the shipping cost. It would depend on your "production". You will soon find out that all "whites" are not the same, and that some will compliment an individual piece, where others won't. There are at least 15 different shades of white in the Crescent line. Not that you should limit yourself to just white. If you really get into this, you can order a set of mat corner samples from Crescent http://www.crescent-cardboard.com/ so that you can select and order mats from a non-local source.

Tim mentioned "museum glass". That is very nice indeed, has a non glare coating as well as ultraviolet filtering, is virtually invisible, but is WAY EXPENSIVE. A more affordable option is called something like "conservation clear" It has a coating on what will be the inside surface which helps prevent UV light from fading pigments in watercolor paints, photos, or prints. You will still have the glare to contend with, but then you will still be able to eat. Another type of glass is called non-glare, which has one or both sides lightly etched to reduce glare. I never did care for the softening effect this gives to the painting, and that is accentuated when you use more than one mat. So I settle for the conservation clear by Tru Vue, http://www.tru-vue.com/ which is packaged with a plastic film backing to protect the coated side of the glass, which is VERY easily scratched. The plastic film is cut or peeled away just prior to cutting. One thing about the glare, it tends to add a bit of sparkle to watercolors. makes them look a little more lively, more like they were when they were still wet. So it's not entirely a bad thing.

Here is an interesting link which gives some of the basic do's and don'ts of framing, including an overview of conservation framing. http://www.framesbyjames-pasadena.com/answers.htm

I have a set of markers from Chartpak which can be used to stain the miter edges before assembly of the frame. Tim is right, you don't want to have any lighter, inside wood showing through on a frame corner. I can't find my set of 25 markers on the Chartpak site though, so they may have scaled down their selection. There must be other touchup markers out there for woodworkers though.

If you go to Madison, it might be a good idea to spend some time looking around galleries which sell original art, and see how people are framing watercolors. Typically, they use smaller, more delicate mouldings as befits the light, airy nature of watercolor, whereas oil and acrylic paintings appear more at home in heavy, more massive frames, due to the thick, textured, and largely opaque paint. Another reason for this is that a primary purpose of the frame is to set the artwork apart from it's background environment. Watercolors use mats to aid in this, so don't need such a wide moulding. Oils and acrylics forgo mats, but use wide frames to do the same thing.

Hope some of this is helpful.

Dan

[Tim Morton]

Tim mentioned "museum glass". That is very nice indeed, has a non glare coating as well as ultraviolet filtering, is virtually invisible, but is WAY EXPENSIVE. A more affordable option is called something like "conservation clear"

I MEANT to say conservation glass...but was having a senior moment. Yes John conservation glass is the way to go. they say a mind is a terrible thing to lose:o

[John Miliunas]

John---Might be worth a trip to Madison to look at and try out some equipment. Many art supply stores are beginning to carry consumer level framing supplies. Better call a few places first though.

I hate to cast a pall over your enthusiasm for this project, but you might want to try out a mat cutter and see how it feels to your hand. The act of cutting does place a certain amount of stress on the hand, don't know whether that would aggravate your arthritis or not. Of course if it did, the wife could take over that part of the operation.

That Benchmaster 2 looks like a pretty good unit. Just make sure it is capable of driving v-nails into the sorts of woods you are intending to use. Most commercial mouldings tend to be soft, lighter woods, with oak probably being the hardest.

I never had a problem with brads, but I would always pre drill and drive them with a small hammer. Filling the holes was always a pain though.

Here is the phone of a very good wholesale supplier, but you would need a tax number and a business name to purchase. They don't have a website.

It looks like this place doesn't require a tax number. http://www.framingsupplies.com/index.html They have an option for shipping matboard where you can mix mats with foamcore which makes very good backing boards, and is very light, so you wouldn't have to order so many mats, which are relatively expensive. You just have to order enough to fill the box. This is to prevent damage in shipping. Be sure to get the archival cotton rag mats, the cheaper paper "buffered acid free" variety will eventually degrade and damage the artwork.

You might just find that mats are best purchased at retail locally, as you will be able to choose the colors in person, and save the shipping cost. It would depend on your "production". You will soon find out that all "whites" are not the same, and that some will compliment an individual piece, where others won't. There are at least 15 different shades of white in the Crescent line. Not that you should limit yourself to just white. If you really get into this, you can order a set of mat corner samples from Crescent http://www.crescent-cardboard.com/ so that you can select and order mats from a non-local source.

Tim mentioned "museum glass". That is very nice indeed, has a non glare coating as well as ultraviolet filtering, is virtually invisible, but is WAY EXPENSIVE. A more affordable option is called something like "conservation clear" It has a coating on what will be the inside surface which helps prevent UV light from fading pigments in watercolor paints, photos, or prints. You will still have the glare to contend with, but then you will still be able to eat. Another type of glass is called non-glare, which has one or both sides lightly etched to reduce glare. I never did care for the softening effect this gives to the painting, and that is accentuated when you use more than one mat. So I settle for the conservation clear by Tru Vue, http://www.tru-vue.com/ which is packaged with a plastic film backing to protect the coated side of the glass, which is VERY easily scratched. The plastic film is cut or peeled away just prior to cutting. One thing about the glare, it tends to add a bit of sparkle to watercolors. makes them look a little more lively, more like they were when they were still wet. So it's not entirely a bad thing.

Here is an interesting link which gives some of the basic do's and don'ts of framing, including an overview of conservation framing. http://www.framesbyjames-pasadena.com/answers.htm

I have a set of markers from Chartpak which can be used to stain the miter edges before assembly of the frame. Tim is right, you don't want to have any lighter, inside wood showing through on a frame corner. I can't find my set of 25 markers on the Chartpak site though, so they may have scaled down their selection. There must be other touchup markers out there for woodworkers though.

If you go to Madison, it might be a good idea to spend some time looking around galleries which sell original art, and see how people are framing watercolors. Typically, they use smaller, more delicate mouldings as befits the light, airy nature of watercolor, whereas oil and acrylic paintings appear more at home in heavy, more massive frames, due to the thick, textured, and largely opaque paint. Another reason for this is that a primary purpose of the frame is to set the artwork apart from it's background environment. Watercolors use mats to aid in this, so don't need such a wide moulding. Oils and acrylics forgo mats, but use wide frames to do the same thing.

Hope some of this is helpful.

Dan

Dan, I'll respond fully later, as I'm headed out the door right now BUT, let me just say, you flat-out ROCK!!! :D Dang it, I wish you still lived in Packerland! My step-daughter lives in Oshkosh and I'll bet we coulda' met up on our next visit!!! :) Talk at 'ya later, my friend!!!:) :cool:

[John Miliunas]

Dan, what can I say? You've given me more insight to this whole framing thing than I could've gleaned in a few dozen frames going by trial and error!:) The tips and info on mats and glass alone, will have saved me from the old, "Save a penny today and pay tomorrow" scenario! :)

At this point, I think I may have pretty well settled on the Benchmaster II outfit. No, not as fancy as underpinners or advanced as a Thumbnail, but much more in line with my budget concerns and should do the job nicely for a non-production environment.

Having checked some of the local suppliers, I think I may just go ahead and do one of the on line vendors. Maybe not as cheap as wholesale outfits selling to "insiders", but still substantially less than the brick 'n mortar outfits in Mad City. I was thinking that, if they do allow the "mix 'n match" thing for an order, I would simply try and get an assortment. Most all artwork or even pictures will need different background assortments anyway. I also agree on the anit-glare thing. For some pieces it may be OK, but by and large, I wouldn't want to lose the detail of the subject matter.

Still just a bit undecided on the mat cutter, though. Although the Simplex appears to be more of the "standard", it's substantially more $$ than the Logan I mentioned earlier. I could be wrong, but my guess is, even though I'll be doing a fair number of frames, I'm just not sure I can justify the difference in price. I kinda' figure I could probably pick up some additional mats and such to practice on with the "left over" monies. I'm sure there's a certain learning curve to this whole mat business, as well.:)

Anyhow thanks a bunch Dan and thanks to all the guys who've elected to pass on their personal experiences and suggestions! Just never fails to amaze me the wide berth of talent at SMC and, even more importantly, the willingness of those concerned to share what are often hard-learned experiences! You guys are THE greatest!:) :cool:

[Dan Forman]

John---I still think a trip to Madison for hands on experience with the mat cutters would be worth the trip, even if you bought on line. I don't have any experience with the Logan's, so can't help you out on that. I'm not trying to talk you into the higher priced rig, but if you got a chance to try them both, you would know for sure which would meet your needs.

For practice mats, you might be able to get some free scraps of mat board from a frame shop. They often have pieces not really big enough to bother with from thier standpoint, but that would let you cut a number of concentric openings, starting inside and working your way out. This is good for developing you cutting skills. The things to watch for are hooks when the blade is just getting started, and making sure the corners are clean, with a minimum of overcut. You can often "heal" overcuts to some degree by burnishing the corners with a flat, smooth tool. It's a good idea to go around the whole cut with the burnisher to smooth down the cut edge as in the photo. The tool is called a "burnishing bone", is available from framing supply dealers. Always wash your hands before working with mats, or you may put a big ol smudge on there if you're holding one like I am.

Dan

[Allan Johanson]

A few more thoughts for folks:

Blade life: My teacher uses a blade for a couple mats then tosses it. When you are doing a nice project you want a new blade in the cutter. If you don't do this you'll see minute tearing of the matboard instead of a nice clean cut. Then you'll need that burnisher.

Handling mats: After washing my hands as Dan suggested, I often wear thin cotton glove liners when handling mats, glass and assembling the framed art. My skin is naturally a bit oily and I don't want that on my art.

Assembling the art: Examine the assembled art/mat sandwich for specks of dust and clean the glass thoroughly before assembling the framed artwork. It sounds simple, but you really need to look at it carefully. Otherwise you've preserved that dust in there forever.

Slip sheet: A slip sheet is the piece of sacrificial matboard you place on the cutter and then you place your good matboard on it upside down. Think of a zero clearance insert on your TS to help prevent tearout and you're on the right track. This slip sheet can be the cheap "flawboard" that is often half price of regular mat board. When working with suede mats, make your slip sheet be larger than the size of suede mat you are using. The suede marks very easily and this will help prevent it.

Cutting the matboard to initial size (outside dimensions): The mat cutter you buy might have a built-in way of cutting down 32"x40" regular sheets, or you might have to do this on your own. However you do it, make sure that the final dimensions make it DEAD SQUARE.

Good luck!

Allan

[Jim Becker]

ABlade life: My teacher uses a blade for a couple mats then tosses it. When you are doing a nice project you want a new blade in the cutter. If you don't do this you'll see minute tearing of the matboard instead of a nice clean cut.

Very good point. It's amazing how abrasive card stock/matt is to the blade!

BTW, I'm really enjoying this thread. SO much information!!

[Allan Johanson]

Forgot to mention about start/stop cutting. Naturally, the whole process of cutting out mats revolves around your ability to start and stop a cut exactly where you want it. Undercuts are bad and can lead to tearing the colour face on the mat board. Overcuts are bad because you will always see that tell-tale line when the pic is framed. You want it dead on, with maybe a very, very, very, very, very tiny overcut.

So you need to practice.

Typically, you place the mat board in the cutter and using the fence on the cutter, make pencil lines on the back of the mat board to show you where your start/stop lines are.

Once you've done all your lines, now you get to cut out the middle. But here's the tricky part.....depending on your cutter and the depth of the blade in the holder, you may need to start plunging the blade into the mat 1/8" before the pencil line....or maybe 3/32", or very close to the line. It depends on a bunch of stuff.

Same with ending the cut. Maybe you end right on the pencil line? Maybe a tiny bit after?

You need to consistently use the same blade depth and learn your cutter. You need to practice.

A way we were taught to practice was to take a small piece of mat board (even as small as 5"x7") and make the pencil marks on it 1" away from the sides - but only on 3 sides, the two long sides and one short side like a giant letter "C".

Now, make a cut on the two long sides of the "C".

Now make a cut on the short side of the "C". You've now got a 3-sided cut in the middle of this mat board.

Now keep practicing on this short side. Keep moving your fence out 1/2" at a time and keep practicing your start/stop cuts. You'll end up with a bunch of 1/2" wide strips of mat board so you get lots of practice with a tiny piece of board, keeping your waste to a minimum and that extra cash you've saved can buy more toys. :D

You can also use these little strips as glue applicators. ;)

I'm sure there are a ton of ways to do this, but this is one method I've found very helpful.

Cheers,

Allan

[John Miliunas]

My goodness!!! You guys oughta' get together and author a book!!!!:D I've looked at some framing books and even bought one, but I have to believe you've taken the "high points" from all of them and condensed those most important parts right here in this thread!!! WOW!:)

OK, so let's see if I can condense it down even further: Practice. After that, practice some more. Seems like the Benchmaster II may well indeed be the best suited for a home workshop NOT going commercial. Yes? Then, there's practice! Quality of mat boards and glass is paramount for archival quality! May be best to order on-line for sake of $$ savings, though frame shops may have some scraps available to practice with. Need to practice on cutting said mats. Accuracy of miters is a given. :)
So, I'm still a bit undecided on two main tools: Does one go ahead with something like the Lion Trimmer? I see that LV, Woodcraft, Rockler, etc... all have imported knock-offs of the same thing, for substantially less $$$. (May need the extra $$$ to purchase practice mats!:) ) Then there's the mat cutter system itself. The Logan 450 appears to be a suitable system for significantly less $$$ than the Simplex. Would it take me past the "practice" stage into making real mats or do I just bite the big one and wait to afford the Simplex??? Before answering that, bear in mind that I'm NOT out to put our local framing shops out of business and LOML can only create x-amount of masterpieces in y-amount of time!:) This is intended for personal use and adding that extra personal touch for our home and gifts to friends and family.

Oh, and Dan, I did go into the Madison Woodcraft yesterday to check out what they have. No mat cutters on display to try out, just two boxed units and overpriced at that. I've got a couple frame shops I may try to check out, one of which is right in Spring Green!

You guys just can't even imagine how appreciative I am for all the help and responses on this thread! Truly and sincerely a grand community, willing to share experiences and knowledge! I'm greatly impressed, though at the same time, not surprised! Many thanks!!!:) :cool:

[Allan Johanson]

My brain is somewhere else today....forgot the most important thing I was taught when starting a cut:

Plunge the knife in the mat about 1/2" before the pencil line - but only cut halfway into the mat! As you slowly start the cut, maintain this partial cutting depth until the magic distance from the pencil line, then plunge all the way through.

By doing this, you will greatly reduce the chances the blade will wander a little bit off course during the initial plunge because the blades are very thin and flexible. If you ever see a mat that has a very slight curve in the first inch of the corner, you know that person didn't do this little trick.

I'll leave further tips to the pros, but this method was taught to us by a framing school who teaches the pros who set up shops. I'm sure there are many more tips and variations of these things out there.

Oops....one more thing. :p In a framing book I have it said you can get a nice finished look on the backing paper (back dust cover) by wetting it slightly and allowing it to dry (to shrink and tighten up the paper). I asked my teacher about this and he said some folks have found this is bad advice since on occasion the introduction of moisture can cause mildew damage.

So I'm sticking to taking extra care when applying the backing paper for a clean look.

Cheers,

Allan

[John Hart]

...BTW, I'm really enjoying this thread. SO much information!!

Me too....Just following along and learning

[Dan Forman]

John---I would forget about the lion trimmer thingy for now. You ought to be able to do fine with a good combination or crosscut blade. Just make sure you use a stop when you are cutting so that the opposing pieces are identical in size. Also make sure your moulding is flat, any warp or twist will affect the cut. If you have a disc sander, use that to true up the miters if need be, but make sure to adjust the pair for lenght again if you have to sand them. A shooting board and plane would serve the same purpose.

The 3 legged mat cutting exercise that Allen gave you was what I was trying to get at when I mentioned "concentric" mat openings. It let's you cut many mats on just one piece of board. Great paractice. Allen was also right about the blades. Two double mats is about all that you should cut with one edge. The blades are reversible, so you can turn it around and cut another two doubles. If they are small mats, you could get away with a bit more.

I wear latex or vinyl gloves when working with glass to eliminate prints. They give me a better feel than cotton, and can't give off any lint.

Be sure to get the ATG tape and a gun if you can afford it, makes everything work much easier. You use the ATG tape to fasten double mats toether before you cut the inner mat so that the inner one has the same proportions as the outer. The inner mat is sized 1/2" smaller on both dimensions, then taped to the outer mat after the outer window is cut. This will leave the outer mat sticking out by 1/4 inch on each side. then tape the fallout piece back into the window, just the way it was. Make sure you don't put any tape within a 1/2" or so of the window, you don't want it on the portion that will be exposed after the inner mat is cut! The ATG tape is also used to fasten the paper to the back of the frame to seal it against bugs and other bad boogie. Run the tape on the the back of the moulding, then apply the paper to the back of the frame. There is a special little cutting tool with a fence to aid in trimming the paper, highly recommended.

Dan

[David Klug]

John I've made a jig for making picture frames. I made 4 1x2x18in long and drilled holes in them 1 in. apart. I made 4 2.5x2.5 in. blocks drilled a .25 hole in the center. Cut a square from the edges to the hole so you have a L shape. Then drill a hole in the corner opposite of the L. Then I made 2 pieces 1x2x5 and drilled holes 1 in. from the ends. I countersunk all the holes on the back for flathead screws on the 4 long pieces. Bolt the 5 in. pieces one end of the long pieces You use the small blocks for the corners of your frame, spacing them according to the size of your frame. After you have your frame mounted in the jig you use a clamp to pull them together with the 5 in. piece in the center. I've made frames as small as 6x6 in. and as large as 2x4 ft. with this jig. Yeahhh I know, Clear as Mudd by Henry Clay. I wish I could send you a picture because it really is quite simple but maybe you can figure it out.

DK

[George Matthews]

I've had my share of learning the hard way that a cheap matte cutter will result in ugly work.

After wasting a lot of matte board I finally clued-in and purchased a Logan 3000 (4000) matte cutter. An excellent tool, that produces professional results!

Laying out the cutting lines can also be a challenge. I created an Excel spreadsheet to help reduce the errors. If anyone wants this template please PM me.

I also recommend "Home Book of Picture Framing" 2nd edition, by Kenn Oberrecht. ISBN 0-8117-2793-9

[lou sansone]

hey guys ...
I have tried to read all of this, but do any of you have expereince with the hand operated v nailers? I have used the expensive air operated ones, and wish I still had it.

lou

[John Miliunas]

hey guys ...
I have tried to read all of this, but do any of you have experience with the hand operated v nailers? I have used the expensive air operated ones, and wish I still had it.

lou

Funny you should mention that, Lou! Just a few minutes ago, I was talking to Dave Richards about that exact same thing!:) While probably not something you'd find in a high-end framing shop, I think it works quite well and, as it would happen, I'll get to test it out on some BE Maple sometime today. I just started making a couple small frames for my daughter and plan on using one on those. I picked up the BenchMaster a few months ago. Worked great in some other woods, but this will be the first time in something as gnarly as BE Maple. I'll let you know how it works!:) :cool:

[Steve Clardy]

I have a Paslode corrugated nailer. Used it when we did pic frames.
Last year we did frames, we did over 17000 frames.
Talk about a boring job----------Lol