V-3000 or Super Dust Gorilla

[Dave Van Ess]

I came into some money so I plan to upgrade my Dust collector.

Presently I am looking at the Ornieda V-3000 or the 3HP Super dust gorilla.

I have calculated the worst duct run. It is the equivalent of 71 ft of hard duct in series with 13 ft of 4in flexhose.

I calculated the pressure drop to be 5 inches.

From their chart I believe the SDG has 11inches of preassure at 600cfm ant the
V-3000 has 9 inches of preassure.

Do my calculations seem right? I used Rick Peters and some book by Woodstock Inter Inc to calculate the preassure loss. They gave foot equivs from the different types of elbows, wyes, etc.

I have no idea how much to had for filter loss.

The difference in price is about $400. I asked Ornieda and of course they said go with the more expensive one. I just would like a reality check

I would like to buy this week!

Thanks

Dave

[Jim Andrew]

Do they have the same size filters? And is the impeller the same? Those are the important details to me.

[Clay Fails]

Dave,
I went through the same process about a year ago before pulling the trigger on the Oneida Smart Pro. Tomorrow when I get to work I will reply with a graph I developed that compares the performance curves of 10 Oneida collectors on a single sheet, along with the system curves for my ducting layout. It's more information than you will ever get from Oneida.

[Dick Mahany]

I went through this about 2 years ago. I did all of the calculations and determined that for my needs, the V3000 was the right chioce. Less money, less shipping. I couldn't be happier. It is installed in a 3 car garage with about 55 feet of DC pipe with numerous connectors for the longest of 5 runs. I can't precisely recommend the best solution for you, but I have taken CFM and SP measuremenst for each of my collection points and they are above the minimum recommended requirements for any of my tools. I have several pics of the installation here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/dmshopshots/DustCollection#

[Paul Wunder]

Your pressure drops seem low to me. Try the following link from Bill Pentz's web site and look for his spread sheet called Static Calc. It will tell you how to account for the filter loss and the losses from the cyclone itself as well as machine hoods. Personally, even with a $400 gap in price, I would go with the bigger machine. When you add the cost of the ductwork and the sweat equity that you put into the installation the $400 will seem to shrink.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/

Edited for spelling

[Ben Martin]

Do you ever plan to move? Upgrade to a bigger shop?

I went through this dance about 6 months ago, see the lengthy thread in the Workshop forum (where this will probably get moved to). In the end, the price difference was so little, that I went with the 5HP Super Gorilla. Because it worked now and practically guaranteed me that I "future proofed" my money...

[Clay Fails]

Dave,
I've attaced a set of fan curves for 10 Oneida collectors. It's a busy graph, but might be of use to you. The CFM is along the x axis on the bottom, and the Static Pressure is along the y axis on the left. The lines sloping from left to right are the 10 dust collectors, labeled with a number on each end. These numbers correspond to the descriptions at the top of the page. The V-3000 si line number 5, and lines 1, 2, 3 and 6 are Super Gorilla's in different HP ratings. The lines that slope from bottom to top are system curves for a couple different ducting design layouts in my shop.

You can see that the 3 HP super gorilla (line 3) has a flatter curve than the V 300 (line 5). The two fairly steep lines towards the right (lines 10 adn 7) are the Smart Pro machines with VFD's on the motors. I purchased the 5 HP Smart Pro, and couldn't be happier.

The idea is to plot your system curve against the fan curve and find an intersection point. Then check the velocities in the mains and drops. Do this for various machines to find out which is the governing unit.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[Ole Anderson]

Thanks, that is interesting, something that Oneida should already have available on their website but doesn't. I presume you consolidated curves already available on the Oneida site. Beware though, as to the accuracy of their curves. For the 2 hp Super Dust Gorilla (the one I have) they have 2 very different curves that show peak suction about 2 inches different. My measurements show that the PDF curve in the specifications section is much more accurate than the one that pops up when you click on the red "fan curve" which calls all of the data into question. Had I known that curve was the one to consider, I would have gone with the 3 hp version. But mine still does a very good job due to proper duct sizing (7 inch main vs 6 inch). Graph is hard to read, but if I interpret it correctly it looks like you have plotted the correct curve.

Dave, to simplify your search, just look for the highest suction that you can afford at the 800-1000 cfm range, which is the flow you need for the larger machines with a 6" connection or your tablesaw with top and bottom connections. My recommendation: 3hp Super Dust Gorilla by a mile. I would consider that one and the ClearView as the two go-to cyclones. And if you choose a cyclone in that range, definitely go with a 7" main.

[David Kumm]

Keep in mind that company system curves tend to be optomistic, and machinery CFM suggestions tend to be light. Flex knocks the socks out of cfm. If your real world results don't match your calcaulations there is no cheap fix. Think not only of the machines you have today but what you may get in the future. For a few hundred I'd always hedge my bets. Not fun to have to add the cost of new dust collection when that screaming deal on the 20" planer you've always wanted comes along. Dave

[Joe Cowan]

I didn't run any calculations, just went with the V-3000. I wanted to overbuy somewhat, as who knows what the future holds and more may be needed. Very happy with this DC.

[mreza Salav]

I think your calculations are not correct; 71 foot of 6" ducting (you didn't specify the diameter) and 13 foot of 4" flex gives about 25-30" of static pressure drop
depending on other factors such as filter, cyclone body, etc (using Bill Pentz calculator).

I am not a "always bigger is better" guy but good DC is something you can never have too much of. The design of V-series doesn't give as much separation of fine dust as the Gorilla series. $400 extra is a very easy decision making if it was me.

[David Kumm]

Mreza, I'm often wrong so correct me but I had understood the V system cyclone was the slightly better fine dust separator due to the longer cone. Better is a relative term. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I think your calculations are not correct; 71 foot of 6" ducting (you didn't specify the diameter) and 13 foot of 4" flex gives about 25-30" of static pressure drop
depending on other factors such as filter, cyclone body, etc (using Bill Pentz calculator).

I am not a "always bigger is better" guy but good DC is something you can never have too much of. The design of V-series doesn't give as much separation of fine dust as the Gorilla series. $400 extra is a very easy decision making if it was me.

Hi, my calculations are much different for 71 feet of 6" pipe and 13 feet of 4" flex I get

400 CFM 2.95"WC

500 CFM 3.26"WC

600 CFM 3.80"WC

Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

Dave, I don't remember you being wrong :) and I don't have any test to back up which one has a better separation (and I don't know if one exists to show which one is better) but I think based on my reading the similar design used at CV, Gorilla, and Grizzly provides better separation. I think the v-series is the more economical version (i.e. cheaper to build) and if indeed it would provide better separation I think it would be adapted into their "industrial" line. I am guessing it's more than just "longer" cone but I could be easily wrong...

Rod, the static pressure of just the pipes at those lengths and CFM's is what you say, what I wrote is how much drop OP has to take into account in his "system" (which is btw for a higher CFM), this is taking into account the drop due to cyclone itself, filters, seasoning of filters, etc. Bill Pentz's site has a good spread sheet into which you plug in your numbers and it gives your total SP of the whole system. There are a whole bunch of parameters that could change the final result very easily...

[David Kumm]

Hi, my calculations are much different for 71 feet of 6" pipe and 13 feet of 4" flex I get

400 CFM 2.95"WC

500 CFM 3.26"WC

600 CFM 3.80"WC

Regards, Rod.

Rod, won't the 14 ft of flex put the SP over 5" assuming some curving of the pipe? I thought 4" flex ran something above 3" per 10 ft at 4000 FPM. Given that flex is less than 4" that equates to approx 325 cfm. As you increase the velocity the SP goes exponential on you. Dave

[Ole Anderson]

Seems like we all get different answers using Bills calculator. Here is what I get:

400 cfm, 13' of 4" flex alone, 3.55" wc, add 71 feet of 6" and I get 4.40" wc
600 cfm, 13' of 4" flex alone, 7.68" wc, add 71 feet of 6" and I get 9.50" wc

[David Kumm]

Seems like we all get different answers using Bills calculator. Here is what I get:

400 cfm, 13' of 4" flex alone, 3.55" wc, add 71 feet of 6" and I get 4.40" wc
600 cfm, 13' of 4" flex alone, 7.68" wc, add 71 feet of 6" and I get 9.50" wc

Ole, we are probably using different loss numbers. The numbers I saw were 4" flex at 4000 fpm=328 cfm and .323" per foot plus another .75-1" for each 90 degree bend. Gets ugly pretty fast although I have no way of verifying the numbers. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Dave, I don't remember you being wrong :) and I don't have any test to back up which one has a better separation (and I don't know if one exists to show which one is better) but I think based on my reading the similar design used at CV, Gorilla, and Grizzly provides better separation. I think the v-series is the more economical version (i.e. cheaper to build) and if indeed it would provide better separation I think it would be adapted into their "industrial" line. I am guessing it's more than just "longer" cone but I could be easily wrong...

Rod, the static pressure of just the pipes at those lengths and CFM's is what you say, what I wrote is how much drop OP has to take into account in his "system" (which is btw for a higher CFM), this is taking into account the drop due to cyclone itself, filters, seasoning of filters, etc. Bill Pentz's site has a good spread sheet into which you plug in your numbers and it gives your total SP of the whole system. There are a whole bunch of parameters that could change the final result very easily...


Hi, when designing a system with a commercial cyclone package including a filter, the cyclone, and filter aren't included in the loss calculations as the manufacturer of the cyclone provides a curve for performance at the cyclone input.

All you need to include in the calculations is the piping, and hoods, no addition of the filter and cyclone losses...............Regards, Rod.

P.S. I made an error in my earlier calculations

400 cfm = 4.4"WC

500 CFM = 6.7"WC

600 CFM = 9.5"WC.

The obvious culprit is the 4" flex as it's too small for substantially more than 400 CFM............Rod.

[Ole Anderson]

I have measured 570 cfm at the end of about 5 feet of 4" flex, preceeded by about 3 feet of 4" hard, 7 feet of 5", a 5" bend, a wye and about 6 feet of 7" prior to my 2 hp SDG.

[David Kumm]

The problem with putting numbers to flex is most of the time it is curled and coiled around so it creates even more pressure drop than the straight calculations. Don't forget the hood which creates even more. As for system curves being accurate, I sometimes wonder if they are conducted below sea level on a cool day. Dave

[Paul Wunder]

From The Bill Pentz Static Pressure Calculator

Misc Losses:











Trashcan Separator

Enter 4.5" if used








Cyclone
2.25
Enter 4.5" for Wood Mag. & similar, 3.5" with neutral vane, 3.0" with air ramp, and 2.25" for Pentz cyclone



Filters
0.5
Std. Bag = 2.5", < 5 Micron Bags = 1", 225 sq ft filter = 0.5", 300 sq ft filter = 0.3", 450 sq ft filter = 0.25", 600 sq ft filter = 0.2"



Muffler
0.15
Muffler = 0.15"




If you are looking at a cyclone DC whose fan curve says something like "Static Pressure at Cyclone Inlet", then




the four Misc Losses above are already accounted for and should be left blank or set to zero.
















Overhead Losses:












2
This includes filter seasoning and other overhead resistance typical for a small shop.


The above is taken directly from Bill Pentz's Static Calculator Worksheet. It says to add the losses for a cyclone, filter, overhead, etc unless the cyclone states that the static pressure was calculated at the cyclone inlet. How does Oneida, Grizzly, Penn, ClearVue, et, al, calculate theirs?

[Ole Anderson]

How does Oneida, Grizzly, Penn, ClearVue, et, al, calculate theirs?

That, my friend, is the $64,000 question.

[Rod Sheridan]

That, my friend, is the $64,000 question.

When you buy an Oneida cyclone with filter the filter and cyclone losses are already taken care of as the curve you get from them is at the intake port.

No need to add filter cyclone etc to the calculations, just your external ductwork and hoods...............Rod.

P.S. the last 2 Oneida systems I measured were within 3 to 5% of design value when installed.

[Michael W. Clark]

On the losses, we need to know the hood configuration, it makes a big difference. If it is an open end duct, that is the worst case. If it is a bellmouth in open air, that is the best case.

For 13' of 4" flex and 71' of 6" duct with an open end on the 4" flex, I get 11.67" of SP needed at the cyclone inlet to draw 600 CFM.

If you have a bellmouth inlet in free air, the SP requirement is 9.04". More than likely, the hood is in between these two so I would put it around 10.5"wg.

I suspect the Oneida systems are referring to the pressure at the inlet of the cyclone, instead of the fan capabilities.

Mike

Edit:
Just to illustrate how much the 4" hurts. If you replace the 4" with 6" hose, you would have 3.45"wg loss at 600 CFM with an open end duct. Personally, I would shoot for 800 CFM in a 6" duct, which would require 6.05"wg, and give you about 4,000 FPM duct velocity. At 600 CFM, your just over 3000 FPM duct velocity which is on the low side for most dust. For most wood dust you want a minimum of 3500 FPM, ideally 4,000-4500 FPM, but some systems are designed over 5,000 FPM pending the application.

[Dave Van Ess]

Well today I placed an order for a 3HP SDG. I would like to thank Clay Fails for the wonderful performance chart he hac for 10 different Oneida Cyclones. After studying it it became very clear. Here is a summary of the data. I was intersted in performane iin to 450 to 900 CFM What sold me was the 3 extra inches of head in the higher area. Seemed a good idea to have for future dust generators.



CFP
3HP SDG
V-3000
V-2000
2HP SDG


300
12.3
11.9
10
9


450
11.7
11
9.3
8.9


600
11
9.8
8.3
8.4


750
10.2
8.4
7.3
7.3


900
9.3
6.9
5.9
5.9


1050
8.2
5.3
4
4.5


1200
6.4
3.6
1.6
2.5




From this data I can't, see why anyone would get the 2HP SDG and I wonder why they dropped the 2.5HP SDG.

Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Maybe they only need 750 CFM and 5" WC?

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

I think the 2.5 ran the same impeller as the 3 hp with a little smaller motor so there was no great reason for it. the slight difference between the SDG and V look to me like the result of the different inlet diameter of the cyclones. I think the impellers are the same for both 3 hp and both 2 hp systems. Dave

[Dave Van Ess]

But the V-2000 does that and it cost a lot less. I see a place for the 3HP SDG, V-3000, and V-2000. Just not the 2HP SDG

Dave

[David Kumm]

May be a data problem. Some curves may have filters, some not, filter clean, filters seasoned, temperature, etc. If the impeller is the same there will only be differences due to cyclone pressure drop or filters assuming duct work is the same. Dave

[Ole Anderson]

From this data I can't, see why anyone would get the 2HP SDG and I wonder why they dropped the 2.5HP SDG.

Dave

I am asking myself the same question. At the time, I don't believe they had published the PDF fan curve under the specifications tab, just the one that is the red link "fan curve". I relied on that one which showed about 2" in additional pressure, apparently in error. That being said, I really am happy with the performance with the 2 hp unit, but I sure would like the 3 additional inches of suction though, just to make me feel better. I believed the 2 hp unit would be a huge improvement over my Penn State 1 hp 2 bagger, and it was. I am not disappointed with the performance, only the misrepresentation. I did measure 1227 cfm at a 6" drop with 4.1" at the cyclone, can't complain about that.