Refreshing the kitchen

[Dan Mages]

I have officially had it with our worn out, beat up kitchen refacing straight out of 1978 with the harvest gold oven, mustard brown vinyl flooring, and cheesy wood grain flat panel cabinet doors... blah blah blah. I have been holding off as the value of the house is 30%+ down from when we bought it 4 years ago. I saw no reason to flush a few grand down the toilet. Sound familiar, anyone? I spoke with our realtor and she gave us some good insight… keep it simple, neutral & natural and it will sell.

The good news is that the cabinet boxes were built in place and are in great shape. With the exemption of a couple of cabinets (explained later), I am keeping everything as is. The plan is to reface the cabinets, hang new doors, and replace the drawer boxes.

The cabinet doors will probably be cherry with a natural, clear finish and either a shaker or similar flat panel style. It depends on what swm… er LOML prefers (even though it is my kitchen…)

The cabinets are in good shape. However, there are a few I will replace. There is a desk height area that serves no use to me. I will replace the base cabinets with full height models. The bigger issue is the oven cabinet. It currently houses a 24" single oven with storage above, below, and to the side. It is approximately 42" wide. I want to replace the oven with a 30" double oven. Is there a way to modify the existing cabinet box to accommodate the larger oven, or do I need to get a custom box built? Moving to a standard 30" double oven cabinet box will require soffit work, trim work, and a small cabinet tucked in to fill the void. I think replacing/rebuilding the cabinet is the prudent choice.

The counters will probably be replaced with Ceaserstone manmade quartz counters. I have a small bias towards supporting Israeli industry when possible. The products looks good, the price is reasonable (compared to stone), and the maintenance is minimal.

The floor is going to be tricky. There are a number of layers under the current floor that I think will have to be removed before a new floor is put down. The floor is now higher than the wood floors in the rest of the level. I don't know how many layers or if there is asbestos. Ceramic or stone is probably out of the question due to the thickness of the floor in relation to the wood floor in the dining room. Ceramic and stone will not be as forgiving to the ankle biters when they run, slip, and fall. I will probably have to take a core sample in a discrete area to see where I stand.

Lighting will get an update as well. There is no task lighting, except an annoying sconce on the soffit that occasionally gets knocked around by a cabinet door. I am thinking about replacing the sconce with recessed lights. I should be able to run the wire from the soffit directly into the attic and then to the recessed lights.

There will be some minor trim and door work, but nothing that needs to be discussed… at least for now.

So, to the issues at hand.

1. The work will be spread out through the year. I have two little ankle biters that will keep the work pace to a crawl. What should the order be done in? My current plan is as follows.
a. Reface the main cabinet area
b. Replace the oven cabinet and desk height cabinets. Reface the upper cabinets
c. Replace the floors and baseboard trim
d. Replace the counters, sink, and plumbing
e. Replace lighting
2. I need a reliable source for reasonably priced prefinished cabinet doors and veneer. One that I found with reasonable prices is http://www.cabinetdoorsdepot.com/.
3. Is anyone familiar with Ceaserstone?
4. Are there any recommendations for a quality linoleum tile?


I will try to post a diagram of the main kitchen area with box openings in the next couple of days so I can verify the cabinet door width. Are there any CAD or layout programs that are free and easy to use?

Thanks in advance!


Dan

[Stephen Cherry]

Dan- are you planning to resell or live there? I hate to say it, but cherry cabinets may be out of style. (I like them though). If I were reselling, I would do painted cabinets. Take a look at the kitchen design magazines, cabinet websites, etc, and it seems to me that painted cabinets are the current trend. I may be wrong on this, but maybe not.

As for the Ceaserstone, I would have a not small bias toward supporting Isreali industry for personal freedom issues, as well as women's rights. That said, I'm thinking about redoing my kitchen also, and am also in the hole as far as resale goes. But, the more I think about it, the more my preference goes to maple counters, painted cabinets, stainless appliances and oak floors.

Can you post pictures? That will give people a better idea of what you are working with.

[Matt Meiser]

The advantage of painted is that you may be able to paint your existing faceframe and just add new (cheaper) doors.

Task lighting. I wouldn't consider anything but LEDs under the cabinets anymore. If I was doing mine again, I'd buy the rolls of tape. Lee Valley just started carrying a nice selection at decent pricing.

As for Ceasarstone, not sure if I've seen that particular brand, but to me, fake stone looks like fake stone. Wonder how many different opinions you'll get on that part? :D

You might call Bryan at Mid-Michigan Wood Specialties (http://www.midmichiganwood.com/) and get a quote on doors. They did a great job on mine. I ordered enough they shipped truck freight, but they shipped a replacement for one damaged in shipping via UPS. I got all my hinges from them too and they predrilled for those. They did my drawers too--nice maple dovetailed boxes already finshed and ready to mount my Blum slides. He could have supplied a similar slide at a nice price too, but I already had mine. However, they don't do prefinished doors.

[Mel Fulks]

Stephen ,I have done research on this. There is NO difference between the way any set of bean boxes look when it was in style and when out of style! Trouble is some are done without good style. Don't just look at new magazines,look at some old ones. There are some examples from the 1920s an 30s that look more modern than anything being made now.There are good designs that were popular that many now have never seen a single example of. Laminate inlay, linen fold panels,special paint effects etc. What's modern about full overlay doors? The first ones I ever saw were on an old ice box,not refrigerator,a "cordless" ice box. As I child I thought they looked old and clunky.Havent changed my mind.

[Stephen Cherry]

That's all very true Mel and I agree, but if you are planning to sell, it can make a difference to have something that is perceived as in style by a buyer that does not know very much about what a nice cabinet looks like, or what the possibilities are. Also, take a look at the 1970's and 1980's cabinets- in today's world, they do not hold up very well.

Also, I agree about the overlay door issue, but the sad fact is that unless you are willing to have at it yourself, inset doors are pretty much going to be out of reach for almost everybody.

[Mel Fulks]

Glad to find some agreement .The tastemakers have it a lot easier than the guys who make the stuff so I try to take some of their turf. Some victories ...

[Brian Tymchak]

Dan,
WRT order of work, unless there are some other considerations at play, my preference would be to do the major reconstruction work (new cabinets, plumbing, floor, electric, etc) before refacing the cabinets. It's probably just personal bias, but I like the idea of getting the heavy work out of the way before putting in the finished surfaces. Reduces risk of dings, which leads to rework, or lasting frustration. Also, something might change in the plans as the work proceeds which might have an impact on your final finishes.

[Dan Mages]

We are finally getting serious about this project. It has only been 2 years. The cabinet door supplier suggested that we should consider solid wood panels in the doors we are planning to order (shaker style). The standard panel is plywood. I priced out a 14"x31" cherry door with a standard configuration and it costs $69. The same door with the solid wood panel is $90. What is the benefit of a solid wood panel vs a plywood panel? Is it worth the extra cost?

Thanks!!

Dan

[roger wiegand]

For a flat panel in a cherry Shaker style door my first choice would be plywood. No advantage to solid that I can think of, and more issues with seasonal movement with solid.

[Dan Mages]

The sample door came in from Woodmont Cabinets and everything looks great. I have one very minor concern about the door. They pin nailed the inside of the door at the tongue and groove joints and at the edge of the panel. This should help with stability, right? However, they did not fill the nail holes. Am I nitpicking, or should I ask them about it?

Thanks!

[Bill Bukovec]

We are going through the process of getting our house ready for sale.

The professionals we talked to said:

You can never go wrong with Shaker style cabinets. (Making your own Shaker doors is pretty easy. if painting, I'd use paint grade maple with a plywood panel)
Paint all the woodwork (including the kitchen cabinets) on the first floor.
Install wood floors on the entire first floor. This makes the rooms look bigger. (Except for a mud room)
Granite counter tops, stainless appliances.



We will probably leave our raised panel oak cabinets unpainted. We have about a year to go before listing the house, so we have a little time to think about what we will change.

I'm in favor of Ceasarstone, because I have a few shares of stock.

Personally, I think Shaker cherry cabinets are hard to beat.

I wonder what the style will be 5 years from now?

Good luck.

Bill

[Lee Reep]

Dan,

I feel your pain! We have lived in our home for almost 32 years, and so we are room by room redoing the main level. Some of the upstairs is remodeled, but I would just like one level to look completed! We redid our kitchen cabinets ourselves 20 years ago. We sprayed the cabinets white. They looked great, but then we tired of the all white look, and my wife decided a country kitchen was what she wanted ... cabinets got painted a light green. One thing we have noticed is that painting the cabinets ourselves, we have numerous chips. But in going with the country kitchen, we just call it "distressed". :)

We are now ready to rip up ceramic tile, and carpet, and go totally hardwood on the main level (except for laundry room). That makes things really difficult if you do remodeling a room at a time!

The other thing I've done in the past year is switch to LED lighting almost everywhere. We have one track light that uses GU-10 halogens, and replacing 6 bulbs with LED is pretty pricey (~ $90). Need to wait for prices to come down. But PAR-style flood lamps for recessed can lighting, and A19 (regular-shaped bulbs) are getting pretty reasonable to buy.

Good luck on your projects.

[Ole Anderson]

I remodeled my kitchen two years ago and helped my son rehab two homes. All of them now have 100% LED lighting in the kitchen, I think it is a big selling feature. We went with 5" ceiling cans over each work surface. I helped my neighbor and we went with 4" cans 5 years ago and he recently upgraded them with LED bulbs.

[Jason Roehl]

I guess I'm a little confused. It's been two years, yet you had the advice of a Realtor. Are you planning to sell the house soon? This is one of the areas where Realtors really frustrate me. They only seem to know current trends and styles, but they're not interior designers. If you're going to live in the house for however much time, the longer that time will be, the less that current trends should influence your decision (unless you really like them, or want to continually update). I've been in hundreds, if not, thousands, of houses, so I have a pretty good idea of what I like. That may or may not have anything in common with "what sells". When I'm ready to sell, I'll cross that bridge, but until then, any work I do on my house will be to suit my tastes and uses.

As for order of work, I agree with Bryan's post from 2013--do the major demolition and reconstruction first. Set up a temporary kitchen elsewhere if you have to, but you'll be time, dollars and inner peace ahead to rip out everything you're going to replace first, then start putting in the new. Rip out the trim and cabinets, then the floor, do all your rough-in plumbing and electrical, put in the new floor, patch walls, trim and paint, set cabinets, finish plumbing and electrical, touch up paint.

[Mike Cutler]

Exactly!!
I did this for both of our bath rooms, but did not for the kitchen.
Major mistake on my part! as I now need to pull down, or lay over the ceiling. We are also currently using the kitchen as I am doing the cabinets. This is a pain in the keester.

[Dan Mages]

I guess I'm a little confused. It's been two years, yet you had the advice of a Realtor. Are you planning to sell the house soon? This is one of the areas where Realtors really frustrate me. They only seem to know current trends and styles, but they're not interior designers. If you're going to live in the house for however much time, the longer that time will be, the less that current trends should influence your decision (unless you really like them, or want to continually update). I've been in hundreds, if not, thousands, of houses, so I have a pretty good idea of what I like. That may or may not have anything in common with "what sells". When I'm ready to sell, I'll cross that bridge, but until then, any work I do on my house will be to suit my tastes and uses.

As for order of work, I agree with Bryan's post from 2013--do the major demolition and reconstruction first. Set up a temporary kitchen elsewhere if you have to, but you'll be time, dollars and inner peace ahead to rip out everything you're going to replace first, then start putting in the new. Rip out the trim and cabinets, then the floor, do all your rough-in plumbing and electrical, put in the new floor, patch walls, trim and paint, set cabinets, finish plumbing and electrical, touch up paint.

Ummm.... I know what I like and want to use in the kitchen, keep it simple and classic. SWMBO likes to make things a little more complicated, IE speaking our realtors. Yes, there is always the possibility of moving, but as long as I don't have a specific date, I plan as if I will be here for the long term.

[Chad Fitzgerald]

Hi Dan, Shaker style, go with the veneer panel, not the solid wood. Veneer is much more stable. Although it should be a mdf core not plywood core.
The pins in the back, they dont help or hurt anything except the look. they were put there to hold the door together until the glue dried. IMO I dont like it.
If you havent ordered your doors yet, check out walzcraft, Lacrosse Wi. I have been getting my doors from them for 10 years now, and they are top notch. They will not have the pins in the back. High quality doors, company will stand behind them as well.
Flat square panel, cherry, veneer mdf core, 17.10-19.55 / sq. ft.
19.55 is natural grade with no sap, 17.10 is natural grade and allows sap.
14x31 door would be 52.00-58.00 depending on the grade. They will ship.
Just my 2 cents
Chad

[Dan Mages]

Hi Dan, Shaker style, go with the veneer panel, not the solid wood. Veneer is much more stable. Although it should be a mdf core not plywood core.
The pins in the back, they dont help or hurt anything except the look. they were put there to hold the door together until the glue dried. IMO I dont like it.
If you havent ordered your doors yet, check out walzcraft, Lacrosse Wi. I have been getting my doors from them for 10 years now, and they are top notch. They will not have the pins in the back. High quality doors, company will stand behind them as well.
Flat square panel, cherry, veneer mdf core, 17.10-19.55 / sq. ft.
19.55 is natural grade with no sap, 17.10 is natural grade and allows sap.
14x31 door would be 52.00-58.00 depending on the grade. They will ship.
Just my 2 cents
Chad

Thanks for the lead. I will get in touch with them on Thursday while the rugrats are in school. I will call them and ask about the nails and lack of filler. Filling them myself is not a big job if we feel the need.

That said, quotes are coming in for some of the aspects and hopefully I will be in a good place to start in a couple weeks. I just need to figure out the oven cabinet mess and find a couple 20" base cabinets. Next up is quotes for linoleum flooring and Caesarstone counters.

I have a bonus question for tonight. They glued this nasty, awful laminate over everything in the kitchen. How do I get this off the plaster walls without destroying the plaster? I am hoping to replace it with Mexican talavera subway tile.

[Dan Mages]

If you havent ordered your doors yet, check out walzcraft, Lacrosse Wi...
Chad

Thanks again Chad. The rift sawn oak would have been a nice option (but pricey!). Unfortunately, they do not sell directly to homeowners doing a DIY project, but will set me up with a local refacing company. Oh well.