Diamond Paste

[Metod Alif]

I had a junked piece of cast iron for some 20 years. It looked similar to the extension wings on my table saw but smaller, about 18"x10". Few days ago I cut it up with a hacksaw into 5 pieces, about 3"x10" each. There is some rust and visible dishing, almost 1/16" at the middle. I did not check for the flatness before cutting but suspect that some tension was released because of cutting through the ribs.
Now I have two questions, the first is how to flatten the surfaces (not looking around for a machine shop yet). I would be willing to get a 16" bastard cut file, and plane the surfaces flat. Of course, this is just an idea on the paper. Should I have any hope to succeed?
The second question is, how to best use the plates - what grit(s) diamond paste would be most appropriate. I looked at Derek Cohen's site (Derek, I hope you chime in), which got me to cut the piece instead of tossing it away. Derek has (at the latest count) three plates from old planes with .5, 10 and 40 microns paste, but little about their actual use.
I would be thankful for any suggestions. I am not overly enthusiastic with the flattening issue - but if the payoff is worthy, I would pursue it, even possibly through a machine shop.

Metod

[Stanley Covington]

Metod:

Try some of the information available on this site.

http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifi...ing/index.html (http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/hand-scraping/index.html)

[Chris Fournier]

Why go to the trouble and expense? Get yourself a granite inspection plate and some wet dry paper. Less trouble, less cost and very effective. I simply don't understand the hoops that folks are jumping through in order to "properly" sharpen woodworking tools.

An A grade 12" X18" granite inspection plate will set you back less than the 16" file that you mentioned.

[Jim Matthews]

As a recent convert to diamond plated sharpening stones, I think the appeal of the method is both speed and the final degree of polish that can be achieved.

With wet/dry carbide paper, I can only pull the blade - which works.
Using either a diamond plated stone or diamond paste, the steel is cut in both directions.

Did I mention it was really fast?

[Metod Alif]

Stanley,
Thanks for the site. I just glanced at it -it calls for repeated visits. Aside from making a few metal planes, I have hardly any metalworking experience. I enjoy learning new stuff to complement my hobby woodworking.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Metod Alif]

Chris,
"I simply don't understand the hoops that folks are jumping through in order to "properly" sharpen woodworking tools."
Some folks look for new sharpening media (and will probably keep doing so) because they can't get competent with what they have. I use water stones (all from Japan Woodworker) and strops for my Japanese chisels and O1/A2 plane irons. I do not need new media as I am competent enough (my criteria) with them. I also like to explore other means, if that does not call for substantial outlay. The cast iron piece did not cost me other than the 'effort' to bringing it home. I am willing to spend some money and effort to make it work, for the learning experience itself. I do not expect to achieve better sharpness results than I already do. And if I like the plates better, I won't cry over it;).
For honing, I can hold sandpaper with one hand on any flat surface (a block of wood, table saw, jointer bed, piece of granite) and a chisel or iron with the other hand - and get the same sharpness as otherwise. I see 'jumping through the hoops' fine for circus animals and similarly conditioned humans.
Best wishes,

Metod

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Does one need machinists precision flatness for this task? That seems like a lot of work, but I wonder if it's needed. Certainly if waterstones lapped with a diamond plate are flat enough, or sandpaper on a granite tile is flat enough for sharpening plane blades, I don't know if the plates need to be super-precision flat. I could be totally off, of course, but I'd be tempted to use a file or a belt sander or whatever to get close-ish to flat if there's obviously visible problem areas, and then lap the plates on sandpaper on a granite tile or my table saw or whatever.

I have no idea - I could be totally off, but it seems like that would be "flat enough". I also tend to sharpen freehand, so I can probably get away with less flat than maybe like a jig would require.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Some folks look for new sharpening media (and will probably keep doing so) because they can't get competent with what they have.

I desperately wanted to be one of those people when I was younger, convinced that new system X was going to get me better edges. Fortunately, I was poor, and part of me had better sense. I think it's a terrible way to learn to sharpen; having other variables constantly changing on you. When I was learning to drive, they didn't keep putting behind the wheel of a totally different vehicle every time before I even learned the basics.

I still want some better waterstones, because I'm not thrilled with what I have. But I finally understand what I don't like about the stones I have now, and it's not that I can't get sharp, it's how I get there.

[Derek Cohen]

I had a junked piece of cast iron for some 20 years. It looked similar to the extension wings on my table saw but smaller, about 18"x10". Few days ago I cut it up with a hacksaw into 5 pieces, about 3"x10" each. There is some rust and visible dishing, almost 1/16" at the middle. I did not check for the flatness before cutting but suspect that some tension was released because of cutting through the ribs.
Now I have two questions, the first is how to flatten the surfaces (not looking around for a machine shop yet). I would be willing to get a 16" bastard cut file, and plane the surfaces flat. Of course, this is just an idea on the paper. Should I have any hope to succeed?
The second question is, how to best use the plates - what grit(s) diamond paste would be most appropriate. I looked at Derek Cohen's site (Derek, I hope you chime in), which got me to cut the piece instead of tossing it away. Derek has (at the latest count) three plates from old planes with .5, 10 and 40 microns paste, but little about their actual use.
I would be thankful for any suggestions. I am not overly enthusiastic with the flattening issue - but if the payoff is worthy, I would pursue it, even possibly through a machine shop.

Metod

Hi Metod

Diamond paste is good, but I cannot recommend the path you are travelling to get there. Too much work to flatten the cast iron plates you have. Far simpler and far less effort to convert a few old plane bodies (as I did).

For the reference of others: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Castironhoningplatesfordiamondpaste.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Fournier]

Does one need machinists precision flatness for this task? That seems like a lot of work, but I wonder if it's needed. Certainly if waterstones lapped with a diamond plate are flat enough, or sandpaper on a granite tile is flat enough for sharpening plane blades, I don't know if the plates need to be super-precision flat. I could be totally off, of course, but I'd be tempted to use a file or a belt sander or whatever to get close-ish to flat if there's obviously visible problem areas, and then lap the plates on sandpaper on a granite tile or my table saw or whatever.

I have no idea - I could be totally off, but it seems like that would be "flat enough". I also tend to sharpen freehand, so I can probably get away with less flat than maybe like a jig would require.

Price out a granite inspection plate Joshua, they're dirt cheap and they are incredibly flat with a generous working surface. Once you have one you will find other uses for it I can assure you. I made a stand for mine and use it as my waterstone bench for example. I also have an inscription ready for it when I kick off, there's the $$$ savings!

[Gary Hodgin]

If interested, Enco has a web special on a 12x18x3 granite surface plate accurate within .0002 on web special for $45.95 with free UPS shipping. I paid nearly that amount for my 9X12x2, around $35 as I recall.

http://www.use-enco.com/1/1/1256-black-granite-inspection-surface-plates-640-0120.html

P.S. The enco plate is a grade B.

[Jim Koepke]

Why go to the trouble and expense? Get yourself a granite inspection plate and some wet dry paper. Less trouble, less cost and very effective. I simply don't understand the hoops that folks are jumping through in order to "properly" sharpen woodworking tools.

It may not be so much "jumping through hoops" as it is the quest for knowledge or the anticipation of traveling unfamiliar territory.

So far, this bug hasn't bitten me too hard. However, after following the link to Derek's chronicle of using broken plane soles to make diamond lapping plates it looks like it may be a project when a few more broken soles find their way into my shop.

For many folks, one sharpening system will be enough. For others, we do not want to leave any stone unturned or unused.

Like me, Metod may prefer first hand experience with such methods and is willing to pay the price to for the privilege.

In my case, oil stones didn't seem to work. After experimenting with scary sharp and then water stones and learning more about the "art of sharpening" my success improved on oil stones.

For some of my needs, oil stones are the best. For other needs, the water stones beat all.

jtk

[David Weaver]

It will be hard to draw file or even belt sand (to remove most of the dip) from a plate that large. The closer it all gets to coplanar, the slower it will go.

Even hand plane bottoms are a pain, as are mild steel laps if they get ouf of flat and don't start flat.

If I were going to go the route of diamonds, I would save the loose diamonds for 1 micron and smaller and use an eze lap or something similar for the 1k grit work. Stretch its life out by maximizing the use of the grinder to minimize the use of the diamonds.

[Kees Heiden]

And how about the backs of vintage chisels and plane blades? I am very fond of old stuff, and I am not a fan of the "ruler trick". Don't know why, it just doesn't feel like a good long term solution.

Vintage irons usually are troublesome. Pitting, convexities, drooping corners that never seem to come coplaner with the rest. I am certainly not looking to flatten the complete iron, but just flattening 3/4" or so is tedious work. At the moment the fastest way for me is the Sigma 120 brick, then a 400, a 1000 etc waterstone. I tried DMT diamond plates, great when new, not so great to downright slow when used for a while. I tried sandpaper on glas. No idea what I am doing wrong, but my sandpapered irons never conform to the flatness of my waterstones, meaning much work on a coarse waterstone again.

So, any new ideas? Something rediculous fast, with a long life, and preferably not too expensive, and not too laborious in itself?

[David Weaver]

a mild steel kanaban, an iron holder device (to allow you to put unlimited pressure on the iron) and loose diamonds of the 80-120 grit range. Make the device out of anything free you have around. A 2x4 and scrap bolts works fine. The virtue being that the kanaban always seems the same, it would be almost sinfully wasteful if you even used a carat of diamonds on a single very pitted iron (Which is about $1 of diamonds), and there is no steel hard enough that it can't be abraded.

You will be able to revive several dozen old pitted irons before flatness becomes an issue, and you will have toned triceps when you're done. WD 40 or something like that for a lubricant (something thin).

Aluminum oxide paper fresh on a long roll might be a little faster when fresh, but it seems to me that the diamonds are about as fast as any once you have a setup, and you have no limitation whatsoever on the amount of pressure you use.

The ruler trick isn't intended to bypass pitting, it's intended to be used on an iron that is flat and fresh, but perhaps just not polished. It's intended to remove the wear from use only, and works extremely well if it's used appropriately, especially in a situation where you have a very hard iron that planes a lot of feet before it's sharpened, and is a bear to polish on the back.

If it is chasing more than wear, though, it can get out of control.

[Kees Heiden]

If it is chasing more than wear, though, it can get out of control.

Yes, that was what I feared. Probably, I didn't really have a filosophy, just a gutfeeling it can't be good.

Anyway, I'm, looking for a Kanaban. I will have a look around overhere. Do you know a reliable brand? Loose diamonds are easilly available.

I do allready use an iron holder on the Sigma 120, you really need to put your weight on the iron to get it to cut over a large surface.

[David Weaver]

Tsunesaburo has some that are actually flat. They are more coin than the ones that aren't as flat (I don't know what brand those cheap ones are, they're about $20).

If you have anything mild steel around you anywhere (in the 3/8th thick range), you can drill and countersink some holes in it and attach it to a block of wood and be off to the races.

I use this one: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-SFP200/Search/kanaban/Steel_Flattening_Plate_(Kanaban)

Mine started out a little crowned. I refurbished a rash of tools a few years ago and it eventually ended up hollow, anyway. I reflattened it on coarse sandpaper, and am more careful about using the whole surface now.

Loose diamonds without paste is a far better buy for this kind of work, I'm sure you're already aware. I think my figure above of $1 per carat is what it was when I bought mine. It might be more like a $0.25 per carat now. I didn't use 20 carats in the time I've refurbished a whole pile of tools that I had set aside when I only had stones.

[Kees Heiden]

Good, I'll look around for some mild steel. Real kanabans didn't seem to make it across the ocean, I can't find them at the usual shops.

[Jack Curtis]

...When I was learning to drive, they didn't keep putting behind the wheel of a totally different vehicle every time before I even learned the basics. ...

Heh, heh. My father was a car dealer (Lincoln/Mercury), and we didn't own a car when I learned to drive; so I dealt with the changing vehicles by learning to drive most anything except huge trucks, stick and auto, etc. So there are some advantages to the alternate method, cause now I can step into most any vehicle and drive safely.

[Jack Curtis]

...
Anyway, I'm, looking for a Kanaban. I will have a look around over here. Do you know a reliable brand? Loose diamonds are easilly available....

Dieter carries a Veritas steel honing plate as well as lots of Japanese tools. He may have some kanaban, too.

[Steve Friedman]

David,

I have used diamond paste, but never loose diamonds. Do you have a recommendation for a source for the loose diamonds? Also, what's your favorite lubricant to use with them?

Thanks,

Steve

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, the LV plate looks like a good candidate! Not very cheap, but it is FLAT. And it is easilly available, which is nice too. I couldn't find it yesterday, because i was looking for Kanabans.

Now I must look around for the diamond paste. Weird, Dieter sells the plate but not the diamonds...

BTW, Lee Valley claims the plate will never go out of flat. Probably because the grit will embed in the plate. How serious should one take such a claim?

[David Weaver]

Yes, the LV plate looks like a good candidate! Not very cheap, but it is FLAT. And it is easilly available, which is nice too. I couldn't find it yesterday, because i was looking for Kanabans.

Now I must look around for the diamond paste. Weird, Dieter sells the plate but not the diamonds...

BTW, Lee Valley claims the plate will never go out of flat. Probably because the grit will embed in the plate. How serious should one take such a claim?

Every plate will go out of flat, but one used with very fine diamonds will do it very slowly. With coarser diaminds, it will happen fairly quickly.

When you're using a plate, the urge to recharge it before it stops cutting will be there. Once the diamonds embed, you don't have the "crunch" that you feel when you have a few loose ones rolling around. IT just feels instead like you've got metal on metal, so you have to check the edge you're honing to see if progress is being made to determine whether or not you need to recharge. To reverse something that Bill Clinton said, you want to use less rather than more and later rather than sooner.

I don't use fine diamonds too much, though. I tinkered with them like others, but a good stone is so much nicer to use.

[David Weaver]

David,

I have used diamond paste, but never loose diamonds. Do you have a recommendation for a source for the loose diamonds? Also, what's your favorite lubricant to use with them?

Thanks,

Steve

I have bought all of mine on ebay from someone who use the name "yuri" in their handle. Not intentionally, he's just been the cheapest. I usually just go out there and search "loose diamond grit" or "diamond lapidary grit" and type in a number like 80 or 120 depending on what I'm looking for. Whatever comes up cheapest but is graded to the size I want, that's what I get.

I just did a search of the same thing (without a number constraint) and came up with the same guy at this auction #:

321008138730

I'm sure he has coarser grits, too. No affiliation, of course.

The only reason I go for loose diamonds vs. pastes is that you get so much more diamond in loose diamonds for the same money. I universally use(d) Wd40 from a gallon dispensed from a reusable bottle (if you use an aerosol can, it just goes everywhere - not a big fan of that). Now that I don't have much more to acquire in tools, I don't use the stuff much, but it's handy when you need it.

[Metod Alif]

Hi Derek,
Thanks for your "Too much work to flatten the cast iron plates you have."- non-encouragement:). I will not toss the plates away yet. I am supposed to meet with a friend's acquaintance in (hopefully) a few days. He used to work as a machinist - I am guessing that he might be retired now. I am curious what can I learn.
You have experience with a variety of media. How do your diamond charged plane soles compare with the rest? Mentioning of kanaban - well the pieces I have are suitably large.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Metod Alif]

Hi Jim,
My water stones are over 20 years old, and I still use and like them. They are good enough for me to have them kept that long. I do like to find out what else works - if it costs not much (be it in terms of cash or time/effort). I did start using oil with water stones, for example. They produce the same sharpness - but the convenience of having them nearby and 'dry' is worth the price of oil.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Metod Alif]

Hi David,
I did use an old and not so fresh file to smooth the edges after the hacksaw cuts. It was not so bad - a fresh file would work better. That's when I began speculating about a new and larger file. Of course, the contact area with the edges is much smaller so it is easier to produce greater pressure.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,
Thanks for your "Too much work to flatten the cast iron plates you have."- non-encouragement:). I will not toss the plates away yet. I am supposed to meet with a friend's acquaintance in (hopefully) a few days. He used to work as a machinist - I am guessing that he might be retired now. I am curious what can I learn.
You have experience with a variety of media. How do your diamond charged plane soles compare with the rest? Mentioning of kanaban - well the pieces I have are suitably large.
Best wishes,
Metod

Hi Metod

Your machinist friend may be the only one with a solution (other than to toss the plates in the corner) - he may be able to surface grind then for you.

The LV mild steel plates are excellent. I have one from pre-production testing. I thought was a suitable substitute for my iron plane plates.

How does diamond compare to other mediums? There is cheap diamond paste on eBay and there is more expensive diamond paste from suppliers to jewellers. The difference lies in the concentration of diamond. You pay for what you get.

I am curious how others charge their plates with diamond paste? I smear on a little (large pea), and then use the back of a chisel blade to force the diamond into the iron surface. Once done, I wipe the plate clean. It is the diamond that is embedded that is going to do the work, not the paste on the surface. The paste is the carrier for the diamond grit. Yes/no?

Treated this way the plates are quite clean to work with.

I tend to use the plates for flattening and polishing the backs of blades that have been restored or prepared for the first time. There is greater security in the flatness of an iron plate than the wear of a Japanese waterstone - especially at the coarse end of the range of grits.

As good as diamonds can be, I prefer waterstones for sharpening - this is a feedback thing.

One alternative is the diamond mesh papers that LV sell. Attach them to glass and you have a superb medium for touching up dulling edges. Fast, and with a smoothness down to 0.1 micron. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/DiamondFilm.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

I had a junked piece of cast iron for some 20 years. It looked similar to the extension wings on my table saw but smaller, about 18"x10". Few days ago I cut it up with a hacksaw into 5 pieces, about 3"x10" each. There is some rust and visible dishing, almost 1/16" at the middle. I did not check for the flatness before cutting but suspect that some tension was released because of cutting through the ribs.
Now I have two questions, the first is how to flatten the surfaces (not looking around for a machine shop yet). I would be willing to get a 16" bastard cut file, and plane the surfaces flat. Of course, this is just an idea on the paper. Should I have any hope to succeed?
The second question is, how to best use the plates - what grit(s) diamond paste would be most appropriate. I looked at Derek Cohen's site (Derek, I hope you chime in), which got me to cut the piece instead of tossing it away. Derek has (at the latest count) three plates from old planes with .5, 10 and 40 microns paste, but little about their actual use.
I would be thankful for any suggestions. I am not overly enthusiastic with the flattening issue - but if the payoff is worthy, I would pursue it, even possibly through a machine shop.

Metod

Reads like the woodworking equivalent of wearing a hair shirt. One can't help but wonder why you're putting yourself through this. We all seem so determined in our refusal to believe how few tools and how simple our shops need to be in order to do a bit of decent woodworking.

All of this sturm and drang, hack sawing, and soon to be Blanchard grinding is all so you can use diamond pastes? If I lived close to you I would stage an intervention.

[Kees Heiden]

It looks like the beauty of diamonds hasn't quite reached the Dutch shores yet. I can't find anyone supplying these.

How about silicum carbide? That stuff is cheap and very easy to get.

I did find a mild steel plate in the shop, but am afraid it is far from flat. So just to be sure I'll order the Veritas one.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

On the subject of diamonds, does anyone have any experience with the Naniwa (at least, I believe it was Naniwa) diamond "stones" - it's something like a mm layer of diamond embedded in some sort of a binder on the top of a plate, as opposed to a thin layer of diamond bonded directly to the metal plate like the diamond hones one normally see. At least, if I'm remembering the thing right. Not really interested in getting any, I've got a working set up, and I remember them being expensive, but this thread reminded me of them and I was curious.

Sorry about my comments on flattening - I went back and re-read the original post, and yeah, those plates are big, and really out of flat. Obviously I missed that, because like others have commented, getting that much iron flat is apt to difficult given what I suggested.

Maybe you should go the other way, and try and make it *more* hollow! Then you could sharpen a scrub plane blade without all that annoying rocking to hit the whole bevel! (I'm joking)

[Charlie Stanford]

David,

I have used diamond paste, but never loose diamonds. Do you have a recommendation for a source for the loose diamonds? Also, what's your favorite lubricant to use with them?

Thanks,

Steve

Sorby used to sell diamond spray in an aerosol can back in the day.....

None of this, you see, is anything near new.

[David Weaver]

It looks like the beauty of diamonds hasn't quite reached the Dutch shores yet. I can't find anyone supplying these.

How about silicum carbide? That stuff is cheap and very easy to get.

I did find a mild steel plate in the shop, but am afraid it is far from flat. So just to be sure I'll order the Veritas one.

Silicon carbide, fractures too easily. Probably makes it suitable for high speed steel more so than aluminum oxide, but neither is as good for just honing metal and carbide as are diamonds.

If you want to find them in holland, look for lapidary supply places. They'll probably be cheapest there (other than ebay), anyway.

[David Weaver]

Sorby used to sell diamond spray in an aerosol can back in the day.....

None of this, you see, is anything near new.

Not new, just newly inexpensive. Woodworking supply is probably the last place to get diamonds, even if it was 40 years ago.

[David Weaver]

On the subject of diamonds, does anyone have any experience with the Naniwa (at least, I believe it was Naniwa) diamond "stones" - it's something like a mm layer of diamond embedded in some sort of a binder on the top of a plate, as opposed to a thin layer of diamond bonded directly to the metal plate like the diamond hones one normally see. At least, if I'm remembering the thing right. Not really interested in getting any, I've got a working set up, and I remember them being expensive, but this thread reminded me of them and I was curious.

Sorry about my comments on flattening - I went back and re-read the original post, and yeah, those plates are big, and really out of flat. Obviously I missed that, because like others have commented, getting that much iron flat is apt to difficult given what I suggested.

Maybe you should go the other way, and try and make it *more* hollow! Then you could sharpen a scrub plane blade without all that annoying rocking to hit the whole bevel! (I'm joking)

Those sintered plates, or however they're manufactured, will eventually become out of flat. My opinion (and only my opinion) is that they're a waste of money unless you need them. There's not much in woodworking that you need diamonds for (maybe carbide tooling).

Naniwa and others make them. As easilly as I can be parted from money for sharpening gear, I've never had the real urge to buy one.

[Metod Alif]

Charlie,
You need (maybe not :eek:) to benefit from a bigger picture. As mentioned, I am competent with the sharpening media that I have used for more than 20 years. There is a challenge of learning something new, developing new skills. The cast iron piece was there and I wanted to know if I can do anything with it, with the resources at hand. Some go to flea markets, get stuff and spend many hours refurbishing it. It must be satisfying when it works. Life can be enjoyed even in activities that require effort (such as using a hacksaw - I would not, had power saw available).
"wearing a hair shirt"? What the heck, it is Lent in progress. Ha, ha. You might as well argue (you wouldn't do that on a Neander forum would you :mad: ..) that using hand tools instead of power tools is hairy. I could also buy the furniture and other wooden items for around the house instead of making it. If learning something new requires effort, do you avoid it? I might still win with the plates (better work on it before the Lent is over...)
Best wishes,
Metod

[Metod Alif]

Hi Derek,
Not knowing otherwise, I do not plan to junk my oiled water stones. I would still like to 'win' with the plates, if I can. It's a challenge now - almost for its own sake. I know of LV diamond mesh papers. I doubt (theoretically) that they would make a tangible difference with the .5 micron green compound. One or two passes and being down to the 'green level"?
Best wishes,
Metod

[Charlie Stanford]

Not new, just newly inexpensive. Woodworking supply is probably the last place to get diamonds, even if it was 40 years ago.

Nickel holding up a dime...

[Charlie Stanford]

These things often appear to me to be a solution in search of a problem.

[David Weaver]

Nickel holding up a dime...

No, that saying doesn't fit sharpening with diamonds. It's not comparable to sharpening with sandpaper, and only in the mind of someone who hasn't actually done it would that thought occur.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Metod

There are pros and cons to the 0.5 green compound versus the 0.5 diamond mesh.

The disadvantage of the mesh is that it must be used carefully as it is vulnerable to tearing is there is a rough edge to the blade. Having said this, I have managed 100 uses without damage.

The green compound is chromium and aluminium oxide, with an average distribution of 0.5 micron grit. The diamond mesh is a more consistent 0.5 micron grit, as I understand. I have not compared them side-by-side, and am not sure whether you notice a difference, but the mesh is nicer to use - better feedback and faster. I think that you would definitely notice a difference with the 0.1 micron mesh

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

No, that saying doesn't fit sharpening with diamonds. It's not comparable to sharpening with sandpaper, and only in the mind of someone who hasn't actually done it would that thought occur.

I freely admit to not having "mastered" or having the equipage to abrade steel five different ways as mood may strike on any given day.

[David Weaver]

Metod, where are you located? If you can find some green chromium oxide powder or paste (without the influence of aluminum oxide), that would be a comparable edge to something just sub 0.25 micron diamond. It costs about $1-2 an ounce from lapidary supply places or slightly more from shaving suppliers.

can be used on anything you have floating around as a scrap.

I don't use it on tools unless I have a paring chisel or something to sell, or on a leather buff for carving tools, but I have yet to find even a razor stone that can match it for ease of use on razors, and the edge is less ragged than what diamonds do.

Presume $10 of green chromium oxide might be something to repurchase in 10 years, you'd use something like that only on paring chisels or carving tools, and maybe if you were entertaining yourself with a smoother, though the good quality 1 micron stones seem to be about the practical limit where you no longer notice a difference surface brightness, and they also don't functionally have any wire edge for practical purposes.

[Charlie Stanford]

I know that Garrett Hack uses diamond paste right atop a hard black Arkansas stone per an article in Fine Woodworking. Maybe this is a bit of an expensive solution since they won't become embedded in the Arky over time. With this caveat firmly in mind, the paste-on-stone seems to be a path of least resistance if one needs whatever it is diamonds bring to the table, which I assume is a high degree of polish and hopefully refinement of cutting edges.

It does appear to work for Hack and I'm guessing that he doesn't particularly care about cost: http://garretthack.com/

[David Weaver]

I freely admit to not having "mastered" or having the equipage to abrade steel five different ways as mood may strike on any given day.

Making posts with no useful information "five different ways" has been adequately mastered, though.

We've seen that the urge is bound to strike on "any given day". But the different ways may be much greater than five.

[Charlie Stanford]

Cut a piece of 100 grit sandpaper the size of the stone you will ultimately use to back off the iron when honing. Wet the stone, lay the paper on the stone, flatten the iron on that. Flood the stone with water, or wash it in the sink to remove any stray grit from the sandpaper. Back will be flat as the stone. No more, no less.

Works the same on oilstones, but dribble a little oil on the stone and spread it evenly over the entire face of the stone to suck the sandpaper down to it.

[Charlie Stanford]

No, that saying doesn't fit sharpening with diamonds. It's not comparable to sharpening with sandpaper, and only in the mind of someone who hasn't actually done it would that thought occur.

If the expendables are too expensive then maybe that's telling you something? At what point does the work on the bench have primacy?

[David Weaver]

Seriously Charles, when someone asks a question on here and people answer them, it's really not at all necessary to try to divert every thread into whether or not you agree with what they're doing. Especially when it seems to be the abundance of the items are those which you have no experience with.

Most of the forum is too polite in dealing with that kind of behavior, obviously, because it continues and instead of saying anything, people cease to post questions. It would be fantastic if any discussion could exist without you cutting it off, diverting it or trolling the posters and insulting people.

[Charlie Stanford]

That's a fair point but I'm not the only person that has discouraged Metod in this thread.

[David Barnett]

Now I have two questions, the first is how to flatten the surfaces (not looking around for a machine shop yet). I would be willing to get a 16" bastard cut file, and plane the surfaces flat. Of course, this is just an idea on the paper.

Should I have any hope to succeed?

The second question is, how to best use the plates - what grit(s) diamond paste would be most appropriate. I would be thankful for any suggestions. I am not overly enthusiastic with the flattening issue - but if the payoff is worthy, I would pursue it, even possibly through a machine shop.

Having read the entire thread to whatever's been posted as of 3:45 EST, February 20th, I have a different view on preparing and using those five nicely sized places of cast iron.

There are three questions, rather than two.

1) Stanley Covington was the first to answer, and as far as I'm concerned, he nailed it—without fleshing it out, however. You don't need a machine shop. You can scrape your plates to consistent flatness. I'll explain as we go on.

2) Your chances of success are high.

3) Start with 1µ diamond paste and then see where you wish to go from there. You can always scrape another plate for sub-micron (½µ or ¼µ) diamond.

Your second reply, from Chris Fournier, advised you to buy a granite surface plate, which I second, but not for the purpose so suggested; rather to enable you to undertake Covington's suggestion.

Bring your plates—or rather, one plate to start—into flat with fairly coarse filing or other abrasive work until it's ready to be hand scraped, which is to say, scraped with a machinist's hand scraper. It's a simple tool, most likely homemade from an old flat file or other similarly shaped and sized piece of tool steel, which removes through scraping action successive high points until the surface of your plate has reached a uniform flatness.

The surface plate allows you to gauge your progress by transferring a thin coating of oil paint from its surface to your cast iron plate. Iteratively scraping away these higher areas made visible by the oil paint brings your plate into flatness approaching that of the granite surface plate itself.

Is this a process you'd like to perform? Only you can say whether it interests you or whether you feel you have the temperment for this sort of thing. Many don't. But it's a time-honored and viable option, and a useful one, inasmuch as I've used scraping to flatten nearly ever iron-soled plane I own, have matched the mating surfaces of frog to plane body casting, trued ways of machine and woodworking stationary tools, and so on.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is for you, but it worked for me, and my tools show it. In my experience, it's amazingly rapid, allows quick feedback of progress and achieves the best possible results. It's also engaging and fun—at least for me.

By the way, I have to disagree with those suggesting mild steel or any other steel, such as the LV plates, for diamond. They don't begin to approach cast iron for suitability with diamond.

Although I bought my iron plates as rectangles and discs from industrial suppliers (McMaster Carr still offers them at reasonable cost), your plates should be entirely fine and not overly out of flatness—even at 1/16" inch—than some pieces I've flattened by hand tool methods, filing and scraping, to exceptional flatness for diamond laps—something I've done since the early 1990s.

By the way, you really may need only one of your five plates to get satisfactory results if you confine it to 1µ diamond paste and follow David Weaver's sound advice to hollow grind, on to a diamond stone (I strongly prefer Eze-Lap polycrystalline 600-grit diamond), then jump to 1µ diamond paste on cast iron, and lastly and optionally, hard strop with real—dark, dark green, pure—chromium oxide, not one of those aluminum oxide bars with only enough chromium oxide to color them pastel green as now sold by some major woodworking suppliers.

There are good online resources for learning the art of hand scraping, but the now-defunct Lindsay Books published a small booklet that can still be had from another vendor — Learning the Lost Art of Hand Scraping

http://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/product-p/23225.htm (http://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/product-p/23225.htm)

And to repeat Covington's link to a rather complete survey of the literature, online and otherwise, read Hand Scraping For Precision Surfaces:

http://www.circuitousroot.com/artifice/machine-shop/surface-finishing/hand-scraping/index.html

Again, not saying this is where you wish to go, but it's another option and choice is a good thing.

[David Barnett]

It does appear to work for Hack and I'm guessing that he doesn't particularly care about cost.

At around one dollar per gram, diamond paste's about the cheapest sharpening medium going. Cheaper than abrasive papers and films—that's for sure. 5 grams used this way should last years and years—more than I have left, I'm betting.

The article on Garrett Hack said he used 4µ but the ubiquitous 3µ (nominally 8000 grit) would work just as well or better.

If you're paying more for diamond than, say, $5.95 for 5 grams of paste, you're throwing money away. You can even find 10 gram syringes on eBay for 50¢ per gram—with free shipping.


—Friends don't let friends buy diamond paste from woodworking suppliers—

[Charlie Stanford]

At around one dollar per gram, diamond paste's about the cheapest sharpening medium going. Cheaper than abrasive papers and films—that's for sure. 5 grams used this way should last years and years—more than I have left, I'm betting.

The article on Garrett Hack said he used 4µ but the ubiquitous 3µ (nominally 8000 grit) would work just as well or better.

If you're paying more for diamond than, say, $5.95 for 5 grams of paste, you're throwing money away. You can even find 10 gram syringes on eBay for 50¢ per gram—with free shipping.


—Friends don't let friends buy diamond paste from woodworking suppliers—



I may just try some to see what all the hoopla is about.

[Derek Cohen]

At around one dollar per gram, diamond paste's about the cheapest sharpening medium going. Cheaper than abrasive papers and films—that's for sure. 5 grams used this way should last years and years—more than I have left, I'm betting.

The article on Garrett Hack said he used 4µ but the ubiquitous 3µ (nominally 8000 grit) would work just as well or better.

If you're paying more for diamond than, say, $5.95 for 5 grams of paste, you're throwing money away. You can even find 10 gram syringes on eBay for 50¢ per gram—with free shipping.


—Friends don't let friends buy diamond paste from woodworking suppliers—



Hi David

You would have more experience than most with diamond (paste and loose) making jewellery. I am interested to read your comment here since I have been told by others that the concentration of diamond in paste varies. How does one determine who is a reliable seller, and what a "decent" concentration should be?

For example, a local seller is charging double your recommended price, but I would still rather go with their product if it is better. The cost difference is negligible compared to the frustration from finding the charged lap you are using does not cut as you expect.

Link (to my local seller as a example of what is offered by a non-eBay seller): http://www.cutandslice.com.au/prod745.htm

Secondly, any advice on charging a lap? (I gave my method earlier - always open to improvement).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi David

You would have more experience than most with diamond (paste and loose) making jewellery. I am interested to read your comment here since I have been told by others that the concentration of diamond in paste varies. How does one determine who is a reliable seller, and what a "decent" concentration should be?

For example, a local seller is charging double your recommended price, but I would still rather go with their product if it is better. The cost difference is negligible compared to the frustration from finding the charged lap you are using does not cut as you expect.

Link (to my local seller as a example of what is offered by a non-eBay seller): http://www.cutandslice.com.au/prod745.htm

Secondly, any advice on charging a lap? (I gave my method earlier - always open to improvement).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, I should have known it wouldn't be that easy. Couldn't be. As long as price differentials exist there will always be a bit of nagging doubt.

We'll have to have a thorough exposition of the stereochemistry of diamond polishing pastes before it's safe to make a purchase. We don't dare leave an angstrom or two on the table.

Back under my novaculite rock I go.

[David Barnett]

I am interested to read your comment here since I have been told by others that the concentration of diamond in paste varies. How does one determine who is a reliable seller, and what a "decent" concentration should be?

Vary they do indeed, Derek.

Woodworking suppliers generally don't usually tell concentrations, which should be stated in percent of total weight. Worse, vendors of diamond compound vary in disclosing information about diamond concentrations in their product—some being rather more candid than others. To illustrate this, allow me to quote from my previous post on another forum:

A rather simplistic but serviceable approach is taken by Reentel International, manufacturer of high concentration paste aimed at lapidary polishing and pre-polishing, with 20% diamond by weight. Therefore, a 5 gram syringe of any grit will contain 5 carats of diamond and 4 grams, or 20 carats, of vehicle. I consider this a very high concentration for honing and metallographic applications. One can, of course, use it, but lower concentrations may ease the application over laps sized for woodworking tools. Perhaps 3 carats diamond to 22 grams compound would do every bit as well. Even less would probably be fine.

Reentel International says:

"Our diamond paste provides and excellent medium for polishing and pre-polishing all stones. We use high quality powders mixed in a silicon compound to form a paste. Depending on your usage these paste will serve you well and provide that polished shine that you demand. IMPORTANT - We use a high percentage of diamond powder in our compound (20%). Don't be fooled by others with extremely low prices, they will certainly have a very low concentration of powder so you'll end up paying for more for less."

This is as simple as you'll get. Other manufacturers are less informative and up front in their designations. Companies may offer several concentrations, such as Dianamic Abrasive Products:

"Compounds, Paste and Slurries are available in light, medium, heavy, extra heavy and super heavy concentrations. The concentrations by carat weight are the highest available on the market."

Unfortunately, they don't offer what these carat weights actually are.

Some companies have interestingly complex explanations. NDP, or NanoDiamond Products, says:

"Concentration refers to the amount of diamond in the paste. Unlike other NDP products the concentration of diamond in NDP pastes is not stated as a meaningful value. This is due to the significant difference in surface area of nanodiamond and micron diamond and also the different compositions of paste available. Therefore pastes are ordered by diamond weight or carats without stipulating the concentration."

At best, most manufacturers just state light, medium, heavy—if even that—without further explanation.

Instead of concentrations, most woodworking suppliers extol the exceptional virtues of their range of diamond products—their wonderful precisely-graded monocrystalline diamond (I prefer polycrystalline, as you probably know), their equally especial vehicle—animal, vegetable, mineral oil or water—and so on. Is it all buncombe and bumfodder? Not entirely. Does it justify the unusually high prices woodworking supply vendors often charge? We'll explore this soon.


For example, a local seller is charging double your recommended price, but I would still rather go with their product if it is better. The cost difference is negligible compared to the frustration from finding the charged lap you are using does not cut as you expect.I fully appreciate your viewpoint and am sympathetic to it. One should be able to trust and rely on one's vendor to offer products in a range that fairly facilitates this strategy, one I've often adopted for both convenience and assurance of quality.

It seems fair to say there is no clear and consistent industry standard for disclosing diamond concentrations incorporated into compounds and other products, and that one would do best to rely on in-house tested results before committing to use. Obviously, this is neither feasible nor does it make sense for casual users of small amounts, so one hopes it will be a good strategy to rely on trusted manufacturers and vendors—as I've said, I have no problem with this—but while this may reassures buyers with an expectation of quality, they may nevertheless be paying handsomely—I'll come to that directly—for that.

One might also assume a cost savings in bundling that higher-priced diamond paste with other items to save on shipping—hoping to make it cost-effective and more convenient. Again, each must decide for himself if this an effective strategy—if the convenience and assurance is worth the premium.

Much of the diamond compound—paste—offered to woodworkers is brand relabeled by the manufacturer and then sold at prices higher than what products sell for to the lapidary trade—products often higher in diamond concentration. Without going into too much detail, let me say that lapidaries, for example gem faceters and carvers such as myself, require a range of diamond concentrations.

There can be too much diamond for some faceting and polishing operations and too little for carving gemstones. For this reason, I mix my own compounds with graded loose diamond for carving, but prefer to purchase ready-mixed diamond compound in stick form for polishing some faceted stones.

Because of this, and because I favor diamond for shapening/honing, I'm quite experienced in the broad range of diamond concentrations and have not yet found a diamond paste with too low a concentration for sharpening hand tools.

Now I'm not saying that charging a virgin lap with diamond for the first and subsequent early chargings will benefit from low diamond concentrations, but I've just not found pastes that fell short of sufficiency. I'm also not saying that some compounds aren't better than others—they can be—but this not so much in concentration as in crystal shape and consistency, size grading consistency, number of outliers, friability and so on.

To cut myself short—I could go on for much longer—I feel it is generally a false savings to buy name-brand diamond paste in syringes from woodworking suppliers, and so I recommend buying from suppliers to lapidaries who have become established, have been around for awhile, and who offer diamond compound for half or less of woodworking suppliers.

These would include Daniel Lopacki, whose family continues to run a reliable business providing polishes and compounds at reasonable and competitive prices. http://www.lopacki.com/

Also, Dave Clayton, although his eBay store is currently without listed items—hardly surprising to anyone in the gem trade as February is Tuscon, the largest month-long annual international gem show anywhere. His website is http://jadecarver.com, where he lists 5-gram syringes of diamond paste in grits 120, 220, 325, 600, 1200, 3000, 4000, 8000, 20000, and 50000 for $4.00 each. His eBay store is http://stores.ebay.com/Diamond-Tools-International?_rdc=1.

As both of these persons started as carvers before they became diamond products dealers, you can be assured they sell products that are at least as highly concentrated and appropriately graded as sharpening tool steel demands.

I said I'd get back to cost—an individual's cost-benefit tolerance. I simply cannot bring myself to recommend (much less buy) a measly 2 grams of DMT's Dia-Paste™ for 825% of what Dave Clayton's paste costs, or 700% of Dave's price for 5 grams of water-based 45µ (325 grit) paste that another woodworking supplier sells for $27.95. That's edging well beyond a convenience purchase—at least for me.

I know, I know—tool dealer needs a new pair of bespoke G.J. Cleverley Russian-reindeer-hide shoes. Just sayin'.

By the way, while Rubyvale's price for high-concentration diamond does seem high at first glance, I've not used it and can only say that as it's intended and endorsed by carvers, it should compare favorably to Clayton's and may well run higher in concentration than his or even my own.

That said, mine, which is extremely high in some grits, still costs far less to make than you'd think and I'd intuit it would come in easily for less than half and quite possibly a third of Rubyvale's price—so if their compound is as concentrated as mine, and considering it's both water and oil soluble, I can't say their price is out of line, given they're making it for profit.

However, if it's anything so concentrated as mine, that's way too concentrated for most sharpening and I'd likely cut it by at least half once a lap is fully charged. I'd be inclined to try it, at any rate, Derek. Seems a fair enough price and might be a terrific find.

As for quality? There's plenty I could say to that issue, too, but I've no doubt said enough for now.


Secondly, any advice on charging a lap? (I gave my method earlier - always open to improvement).

I do, but it'll have to wait, for which I sincerely apologize.

David

[David Barnett]

We'll have to have a thorough exposition of the stereochemistry of diamond polishing pastes before it's safe to make a purchase. We don't dare leave an angstrom or two on the table.

Oh, I set it up in my reply to Derek for an all out donnybrook over the monocrystalline vs. polycrystalline debate, with both camps honing their respective powder-steel edged weapons before the slaughter.

By the way, Charlie, I again included 'buncombe' in the aforementioned reply just for you.

[Chris Griggs]

Now that's what I'm talking bout!!!! What great information. Now David, please do tell us more about what you have to say about monocrytaline vs polycrystaline as well as the quality of different diamond products/pastes. Also, could you give us a similar treatise on CrOx, AlOx, Iron Ox, and other micro abrasives.

Very interesting stuff!

[David Weaver]

I also prefer the polycrystalline diamonds. I'd rather have smaller sharp diamonds than larger diamond that are dullish and still leave some deep grooves.

Early on after getting a DMT and wearing it to very slow cutting (and wearing it pretty much completely past there), i couldn't find one on sale and bought a cheap chinese copy of the iwood plate (there were only really two options at the time, ezelap and DMT, iwood and atoma weren't widely available). As it got broken in, it got finer quickly but instead of settling into a dullish slow feel the DMT plates do, it has a finer but still sharp feel and is nicer to use.

As to the expensive pastes, woodworking suppliers are notoriously bad places to get anything related to diamond abrasives. One wonders why a given paste would cost more per carat than pure diamond powder.

I can't speak to david's methodology for putting diamond paste on a plate, but with dry diamonds, just sticking your dry finger in a bag and getting the very tiniest pinch and then sprinkling that around a plate like you're salting already prepared food works well. Taking out any more than that is a waste.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the detail David.

Yes, mono vs poly. We went through this a while back. DMT (mono) suck. Ezylap (poly) just go on and on.

Don't keep us waiting too long on charging a lap! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Stanford]

Oh, I set it up in my reply to Derek for an all out donnybrook over the monocrystalline vs. polycrystalline debate, with both camps honing their respective powder-steel edged weapons before the slaughter.

By the way, Charlie, I again included 'buncombe' in the aforementioned reply just for you.

One of my favorite words of all time and the only thing better than the word itself is its etymology (if it even makes sense that they could be separated).

You are a true renaissance man. Any discussion dealing with lapidary supplies and their use in woodworking sails over my head by a very large and safe margin and only serves to accentuate my decrepitude. I did get in one light blow for Team Curmudgeon though, we of dull-edged notoriety.

I followed your link to the $5 syringes of paste on EBay. I'm assuming these are drinkable now and not for cellaring (i.e. they'll work and I don't need to do much shopping). A weak moment might overcome me and I spend a few quid. I understand a syringe of this stuff should last quite sometime. If Garrett Hack uses it, it can't be all bad. Maybe I could find out who his tailor is too.

Cheers.

[David Weaver]

As an addendum to David's comment about the eze lap. I figured they'd be in line with DMT, but they're cheap compared to most of the stuff out there.

http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-81F-Fine-Diamond-Stone/dp/B002RL843U/ref=as_li_wdgt_ex?&linkCode=wsw&tag=wwwnorthwinda-20

And before anyone gets in an uproar, note that link gets there through the creek store (see the tag at the end?), so it kicks back a little bit of coin to the creek if you use it. 8x3 for $37 shipped....not bad.

David, you and bill have been using the same 600 grit plates for quite a while, right? I've got two beat DMTs, I've never been a big fan of them for general sharpening. I did pick up one of the eze-laps above after seeing that price, though.

As we've discussed elsewhere, the 8x3 SF spyderco broken in makes a good base for just about anything (ultra fine diamonds, loose al-ox, chromium oxide, etc , but it works differently because the diamonds are loose on it). And when it's broken in, it's really broken in...like smooth glass. But it's not a budget option compared to anything else.

[David Barnett]

David, you and bill have been using the same 600 grit plates for quite a while, right? I've got two beat DMTs, I've never been a big fan of them for general sharpening. I did pick up one of the eze-laps above after seeing that price, though.

As we've discussed elsewhere, the 8x3 SF spyderco broken in makes a good base for just about anything (ultra fine diamonds, loose al-ox, chromium oxide, etc , but it works differently because the diamonds are loose on it). And when it's broken in, it's really broken in...like smooth glass. But it's not a budget option compared to anything else.

You are correct, sir! Both Bill Tindall and I.

I think I've determined—or at least settled on—my first Eze-Lap 600-grit stone's being 17-years old. And I'm still using it. I've often written about the differences between monocrystalline and polycrystalline fixed-grit diamond honing stones, how they break in, wear, and sharpen. While my purchase predates Bill Tindall's, his quest for a best all-round sharpening method for woodworking tools was entirely independent and far more methodical than my own. Bill decided on a 7" grinding wheel diameter on his own. I bought a 7" grinder on advise of an accomplished hand tools woodworker and teacher, also predating Bill.

Although I started ahead of Bill and more or less have been sharpening with hollow grinding followed by 600-grit diamond stone, then to 1µ diamond on cast iron for nearly two decades, Bill got his sharpening down to a system, a tried and true regimen, while I was still futzing and experimenting will intermediate steps and stones and laps and strops. Bill made it straightforward and easy and I owe to him that clarification.

It's kind of funny—I became interested in faceting gems after I learned to lap with diamond on the Harris Lapping & Sharpening System*—because I learned to lap and sharpen with diamond on that system. I liked scraping, sharpening, and lapping tools so much I migrated to gem cutting as a means to keep doing this all day long, day after day. OCD much? I mean, although I'd buy a tool just to sharpen it, faceting can be considerably more lucrative, less messy and more challenging long-term than sharpening, so there I went.

The Spyderco ceramic is versatile and amazing and we're going to have to explore and describe using it some more. Also, other forms of chert than novaculite—microcrystalline quartzes—even jasper!

A question—I'll ask you as you've straddled the fences between fora on woodworking and shaving alike—is it considered cricket to post a link to a post on another woodworking forum? Or is this bad form? I'd hate to breach protocol or display bad manners that I've worked so hard to hide. It sure would save time repeating myself if I could link to the monocrystalline vs. polycrystalline discussion posted elsewhere.

*http://tinyurl.com/Harris-Lapping-System

[David Weaver]

Yeah, posting links to other forums here is poo pooed. Maybe it is on all of the forums, I just know for sure that it is here. If it doesn't run afoul of other forum rules, you could cut and paste stuff you've opined on elsewhere that's mono vs. poly related. My view of the two is a lot less educated, I just *like* the poly plates a lot better as they wear. They don't become something offputting like worn monocrystalline diamond plates do.

I'd love a discussion of the quartz and jasper, I've got no idea what I'd buy of quartz and I haven't seen a jasper hone in person, or anywhere. In fact, the only place I've seen the term chert used before is fujibato (japanese stone seller whose name usually brings up a lot of opinion), who attempted to use what looked like google-translate stuff to describe how his stones are different than western stones.

[Metod Alif]

Thank you, David Barnett,
for your input. Reading yours and Bill Tindall's posts on another forum, prompted me to retrieve my piece of cast iron. After cutting it up, I began thinking about a large file. As soon as I posted my question, I felt rather foolish. The time spent on typing could be used to actually DO something about it. I went to 'forgotten items drawer' in my garage and found a 12" old bastard file. That night was getting late, but the next day I gave it a try. I am almost done with all five of them. 60 - 70 minutes per plate (I do not mind some effort) and the dip was gone. The first three (OK, slow learner) were a bit convex. My ineptitude on two fronts: not having checked the progress with a straight edge - just zen-staring the dip getting smaller:eek:) and not realizing that even such a large and thick file flexes a bit. 2 - 3 light passes (no more than .005") with 1/2" end mill (that's ll I have - would try a fly cutter, if I had one) on my small mill drill, four are done, one to go.
The plates have no adequate reference surface, so it took long to clamp them fairly even with the bit. The 10" pieces protrude 3" from the jaws, so there is some chattering even with light passes for about last half inch on either side. There was no way to accurately reposition the plates in the vice, so I had only one shot. Fear of chattering got me to rule out the mill initially. With light enough passes I would have to spend several hours on flattening. Even so I did a fair amount of hand cranking. Just a little more to go.
I feel rather well about how the plates are turning out.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

David, I see that you offered a very detailed explanation on wood central. I remember the thread, but I completely missed your (very excellent) response in that thread when you posted it.

It would be good here.

[David Barnett]

One of my favorite words of all time and the only thing better than the word itself is its etymology (if it even makes sense that they could be separated).

We'll always have Rep. Felix Walker (1753-1828) to thank for that, and H.L. Mencken for elevating it to its titular prominence, at least in my then-impressionable and adolescent mind, my formative neuro-lexical milieu—On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe, 1956.

I also much like orangery, as well, but living in Florida, have less call for it.


You are a true renaissance man. Any discussion dealing with lapidary supplies and their use in woodworking sails over my head by a very large and safe margin and only serves to accentuate my decrepitude. I did get in one light blow for Team Curmudgeon though, we of dull-edged notoriety.

Oh, I'm hardly that polymathic, but am so loquacious and dabble in enough divers arts to fake it when convenient. Team Curmudgeon is T-shirt worthy, and here in God's Waiting Room West—Boca being GWR East—it has genuine potential where the median age is 68+. I'm 'young stuff' until I hit that mark in a few short years.


I understand a syringe of this stuff should last quite sometime. If Garrett Hack uses it, it can't be all bad. Maybe I could find out who his tailor is too.

If you're going to play with just one grit, I'd jump past Hack's habitual usage to 1µ, nominally 14,000 grit. This'll let you sharpen on finer India, Arkansas and other place-named stones and leap to a fair-to-middling final tour de force on your micro-bevel, should you choose to elevate your edge that slightest bit. Mind you, we're talking freehand here—none o' that namby-pamby jackwagon jigging... although you're free to use one, of course. Free country 'n' all.

And you don't have to start with cast iron, by the way—other substrates can be pressed into service. If you're intent on simultaneously deglazing your stones and sharpening while performing edge tool frottage à la Hack, then 3µ (8,000-grit) may give more authentic results.

At any rate, you'll finally know whether all this hoopla is buncombe and bumfodder.

[David Barnett]

Yeah, posting links to other forums here is poo pooed. Maybe it is on all of the forums, I just know for sure that it is here. If it doesn't run afoul of other forum rules, you could cut and paste stuff you've opined on elsewhere that's mono vs. poly related.

I thought that might be so and can live with it. I quoted myself from another forum's post to Derek but afterwards wondered if that might not be contrary to the spirit of this forum or to the forum where my previous post was archived. Therefore, I'll adopt a segregationist approach to participation on multiple fora.

I will, however, offer the same link here as there to an article discussing the subject with the caveat that while I consider it worth reading, and while it accurately enumerates the advantages of polycrystalline diamond, one should keep in mind that it's published to promote polycrystalline diamond products.

http://www.metallographic.com/Newsletters/PC-diamond-newsletter3.PDF

I should also clarify that while I do favor polycrystalline diamond compound, my preference is more strongly focused on polycrystalline nickle-plated fixed-diamond sharpening 'stones' and laps, sintered laps and resin-bonded diamond laps & tools than consumables; loose diamond and diamond compounds or pastes. I use mostly monocrystalline loose and compounded diamond than polycrystalline due to cost and availability—monocrystalline being significantly cheaper (usually) and more readily-available than polycrystalline for consumable diamond products.

I'll further state that consumable monocrystalline diamond films, such as those from 3M, with highly graded and aligned crystals are products with promising crossover appeal and applications and should be considered as a special case.

In other words, it isn't simply polycrystalline (good) vs. monocrystalline (bad)—it's the appropriate use of each on an application-by-application basis.


My view of the two is a lot less educated, I just *like* the poly plates a lot better as they wear. They don't become something offputting like worn monocrystalline diamond plates do.

Often the most sophisticated view is the one gained by experience, and honest preference well-described is hardly a bad thing.


I'd love a discussion of the quartz and jasper, I've got no idea what I'd buy of quartz and I haven't seen a jasper hone in person, or anywhere.

I intend to get to that in the not-too-distant future. I have no slab saw currently so can't yet cut a slice to send to you, but this may change as soon as I find what I want, used, and at a reasonable price.

My way of determining whether stones are suitable for honing is to see if a carbon steel graver makes a streak of any sort without excavating the stone's surface deleteriously through repeated hand-pressured actions. Or more succinctly; leaves a streak, doesn't crack the stone and cleans up nicely. Science is not much involved.

[Charlie Stanford]

We'll always have Rep. Felix Walker (1753-1828) to thank for that, and H.L. Mencken for elevating it to its titular prominence, at least in my then-impressionable and adolescent mind, my formative neuro-lexical milieu—On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe, 1956.

I also much like orangery, as well, but living in Florida, have less call for it.



Oh, I'm hardly that polymathic, but am so loquacious and dabble in enough divers arts to fake it when convenient. Team Curmudgeon is T-shirt worthy, and here in God's Waiting Room West—Boca being GWR East—it has genuine potential in an area whose median age is 68+. I'm 'young stuff' until I hit that mark in a few short years.



If you're going to play with just one grit, I'd jump past Hack's habitual usage to 1µ, nominally 14,000 grit. This'll let you sharpen on finer India, Arkansas and other place-named stones and leap to a fair-to-middling final tour de force on your micro-bevel, should you choose to elevate your edge that slightest bit. Mind you, we're talking freehand here—none o' that namby-pamby jackwagon jigging... although you're free to use one, of course. Free country 'n' all.

And you don't have to start with cast iron, by the way—other substrates can be pressed into service. If you're intent on simultaneously deglazing your stones and sharpening while performing edge tool frottage à la Hack, then 3µ (8,000-grit) may give more authentic results.

At any rate, you'll finally know whether all this hoopla is buncombe and bumfodder.

I'm going to give it a shot right on top the Black Ark. I'll report back, that is if the polish doesn't blind me and I can no longer use the internet. You guys couldn't get that lucky.

[David Barnett]

Bill and I are so very different in how we approach things but we surely do share an appreciation for diamond used on cast iron, and once you try it, you may, too.

I long ago bought another of those Lindsay books on industrial arts on machinist's bench work with hand tools. Files and scrapers and vises were the chief players and I learned a lot. My absolute favorite tools are pairs of little round-leg Starrett machinist's dividers—specifically the 277-2, 2" dividers. My favorite class of tools, however, is rasps and files, and I've made and hand-stitched my own rasps for years.

What can be accomplished with files is amazing. In a German book on goldsmithing, results of filing and sawing exercises for industrial arts & crafts majors in the German secondary-school system are shown. It's stunning to see perfectly filed simple 3-dimensional geometric forms; cubes, cylinders, cones, pyramids, and so on, required to pass to more advanced levels.

Flattening cast iron with a file can go surprisingly fast when one learns that each stroke ideally has a reason, just as each blow from a raising hammer produces a specific effect on a vessel's ultimate form. As you've discovered, files can be more flexible than one might initially suppose and further, that nearly all files have convexity and concavity to varying degrees—features which can be put to good use depending on the forms worked.

While it is nice to have access to blanchard grinders or other large machine tools—I certainly appreciate them, especially now that I'm limited to miniature work with the milling attachment on my Taig lathe—one should not overlook what can be done with simple hand tools, which forms the bulk of my efforts at the jeweler's bench.

I'm glad you're feeling less foolish about flattening your cast iron plates. It's satisfying work with satisfying results. And just think—now your diamond will gain maximum purchase in its ideal ferro-graphitic substrate.

[Steve Voigt]

My favorite class of tools, however, is rasps and files, and I've made and hand-stitched my own rasps for years.



Dear Dave,
I've been intrigued with the idea of hand-stitching a rasp. I have a background in metalwork, and I've watched the auriou video, and it looks pretty straightforward. The one thing I couldn't tell from the video is, what does the pick/punch used to raise the cutting teeth look like? If you have any tips for obtaining or making such a tool, I'd be grateful. Thanks!

-Steve

[David Barnett]

Dear Dave,
I've been intrigued with the idea of hand-stitching a rasp. I have a background in metalwork, and I've watched the auriou video, and it looks pretty straightforward. The one thing I couldn't tell from the video is, what does the pick/punch used to raise the cutting teeth look like? If you have any tips for obtaining or making such a tool, I'd be grateful. Thanks!

First, play the orchestral version of Handel's Sarabande on your stereo... :)

Then you grind the end of a HSS tool bit until it looks like the homemade stitchers from Noel Liogier, known as grains of barley, due to their shape.

http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/16/38/99/18/grains10.jpg

Not as fancy looking as the one in the video but from the same source. Used with a hammer that encourages striking the punch in an arc toward the stitcher, a tooth is raised. It's all about consistency and control.

Mine's a little different, too, but you get the idea.

[Steve Voigt]

Dang, that picture is exactly what I was looking for. And one of my old HSS lathe bits will work perfectly. Thanks!

[Metod Alif]

David,
You are so rich on the inside. I am very grateful for your sharing of knowledge - especially since you have so much personal experience.
I hope to be done with the last (of five) plate by tomorrow. The milled surfaces are fairly smooth - but maybe not enough for the 1 micron paste.
I still have several O1 irons back from a commercial heat treating facility, that will have to be dealt with. So one of the plates could be used for flattening their backs. So far I got by with a belt sander followed by 220 water stone. Nothing wrong with the schedule, but the paste could be faster. I have yet to buy some in order to experiment.
I would appreciate any suggestion about an efficient choice of grits. Now that I learned about the danger of grit contamination (particularly from Bill's posts on WoodCentral), maybe some of he plates should be left out for the time being.
I sure attained a greater appreciation for files. Much can be done with simple tools if one is willing to contribute some effort.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Barnett]

Kind words, Metod. I'm glad to share whatever I can.

One thing about flattening those heat-treated O1 irons—you may wish to try reserving one of your plates for such flattening work and use silicon carbide as the abrasive. Machinist grade SiC is blocky, cut's quickly, and leaves a reasonably polite finish as it breaks down. Most importantly, you can use the same lap for progressively finer SiC grits until you make the switch to diamond.

It's customary to cut channels into such plates to aid in swarf removal and to maintain flat contact with minimal surface tension as the slurry develops. A diaper pattern's most often seen, which can be milled or cut by hand—it needn't be pretty to be effective.


255128

While I've used 80 grit SiC to start, 120 grit works well and is nearly as fast and leaves a finer finish that seems better for subsequent finer grits on edge tool backs. As an example, you might move from 120 to 180 to 240 to 400, then to 30µ diamond—maybe 80 to 180 to 400—even 80 to 220 to 45µ diamond. At any rate, the work goes fast and the backs are soon ready for higher grits.

Although I've used loose SiC grit, one can also use oil-based abrasive compound such as sold to gunsmiths (Brownell's) or for lapping engine surfaces. I tend not to switch to diamond until I reach 30µ, or about 600 grit, but lapping schedules are fairly individual processes and what might suit me may differ for you, so use what's comfortable and available.

All that said, your flattening schedule sounds just fine—I'm a big fan of belt sanders/grinders for making and maintaining hand tools and for a lot of other tasks—and come to think of it, apart from showing a couple others how to flatten using hand methods alone, it's been years since I've done so myself and for myself. Time has flown.

As for smoothness of lapping plates, Bill Tindall is happy using his blanchard ground plates with 1µ straight from the machine shop. Wiley Horne uses blanchard ground plates for sub-micron diamond, as well, although admits the break-in period is probably a bit longer than for my scraped-frosted and scraped-polished laps. Although I favor smoother laps for 1µ, ½µ and ¼µ diamond, as it seems to work for others there's no reason it shouldn't work on your laps, as well.

Like Bill, I segregate my diamond to avoid contamination, and use a plated diamond 600 grit stone (Eze-Lap polycrystalline) then use only 1µ loose diamond or paste in the woodworking shop—the lapidary venue employs altogether different protocols. For a sub-micron polish, I use pure chromium oxide powder—not those predominantly aluminum oxide bars with just enough chromium to give them a green color that Lee Valley now sells.

As for starting, I'd likely reserve one plate for SiC flattening and another for 1µ honing, then decide what other grits might be the most useful. My own preferences would likely be, for five plates, one for SiC flattening, one for 1µ, if I didn't have a 600 grit diamond stone—one for 30µ, another for 6µ—often overlooked but terribly useful to me, and the last for ½µ, and since I do have a 600 grit stone, I'd leave one blank for whatever need or experimental urge that might arise.

The above may likely be too idiosyncratic to be truly helpful—your intuition and preferences may lead you to more coarse or more sub-micron—but gives an example based on my thinking and experiences. That's the fun of it—and fortunately, you can change your mind—plates can be resurfaced and redeployed, repurposed.

Oh, I do go on, don't I? Better stop for now, heh.

[Chris Griggs]

RE: Silicon Carbide. Just yesterday I ordered a 1lb pack on ebay of 100 grit for $12 shipped (search 230920848608). The intention being to find a better way to get/keep my oil stones flat (the cinder block just isn't cutting it...[pun intended]) and also use to do any other coarse lapping I have.

Can I put the stuff and lap directly on my granite tile or does in need a piece of mild steel or cast iron? Does it even matter?

[David Barnett]

RE: Silicon Carbide. Just yesterday I ordered a 1lb pack on ebay of 100 grit for $12 shipped (search 230920848608). The intention being to find a better way to get/keep my oil stones flat (the cinder block just isn't cutting it...[pun intended]) and also use to do any other coarse lapping I have.

Can I put the stuff and lap directly on my granite tile or does in need a piece of mild steel or cast iron? Does it even matter?

As you didn't say what oil stones; synthetic or natural, soft or hard, I'm not entirely sure what your results might be or how long it may take to realize them.

Asuuming you mean flattening hard Arkansas, perhaps a Norton translucent—and SiC will indeed flatten it [Your eBay seller likes it for jasper. Jasper is chert. Novaculite is chert.]—you may speed things along by giving more purchase to the loose SiC than granite would likely afford by affixing a sheet of polyester drafting film over your apparently sacrificial granite surface. While loose grit will certainly cut on granite, it is usual in lapping to choose a lap softer than than the material being lapped, which is why hard wax laps are sometimes used for faceting extremely soft stones.

Although I've used SiC for flattening iron, tool steel, and so on, I came along when diamond had come into its own for lapidary and had crossed over into woodworking and so outside of flattening steel, have less experience with it for flattening Arkansas stones. I've seen it done up close and personal, though—enough Arkansas stones turned up at garage sales in New England to keep people happily occupied at reconditioning them—but I've only used diamond on hard Arkansas translucents myself.

Even flattening the hardest novaculite on a granite plate, your success is likely (good, versatile choice of grit size, by the way) although it may take longer than if you were to mitigate with polyester film or even glass—there will be more wear to the granite sans mitigation—so don't feel you must have mild steel or cast iron—not unless you decide this might become a career move. :)

By the way, I've seen SiC grit used on melamine-covered MDF to flatten plane soles. Also to initially flatten a large hard Arkansas and it went pretty quickly, then on to final flattening with SiC on glass. When the melamine would begin to wear through, this guy would toss it and start on another cutoff. That wouldn't ensure a flat enough surface for me, but different strokes for different folks—mostly figure-eights, though.

Just to be fair and let you know my perspective; as I use diamond for most every sharpening and polishing task where steel's involved, my hard Arkansas bench stones are mostly relegated to keeping older carbon steel gravers reasonably sharp, with a jasper for final polish, but for HSS, it's ceramic and ceramic charged with 60,000 grit diamond all the way.

I do have a few hard Arkansas slips for hand-forged carving tools in simple steel I rely upon. The water stones will come out once more to teach a friend and will then be given to him.

[Chris Griggs]

As you didn't say what oil stones; synthetic or natural, soft or hard, I'm not entirely sure what your results might be or how long it may take to realize them.


Ah yes, hard surgical black, soft ark, pike no. 1 washita, and I guess if needed a notron med. india. Mainly though the washita and the black. I never use the soft since I got the washita and rarely use the medium india. Anyway, sounds like it will work. They're not super dished so my granite floor tile will probably fine...though I may try some melamine or drafting film. I mainly use ceramic water stones in the shop (chosera's and sigmas) but I like using the oils stone for convenience sake (and after this thread may start playing with diamond paste as a finish). The arks also work great for german knives and my first straight razor is on the way so they may end up living upstairs for the razor and the knives instead of the workshop. For touching up the razor I want to make sure that the black is dead flat (currently a bit convex across its width).

The 600 grit diamond straight to the 1 micron diamond paste seems like a great setup for the shop. I probably wont replace my 800-1k water stones with the 600 grit diamond stone, but I'll definitely give going straight from the chosera 800 to 1 micron paste a go. I have no doubt it will work well. In my limited experience if you know what your doing its pretty easy to go from just about any medium stone (be it an india, a waterstone, or diamond stone) straight to honing compound...diamonds being more aggressive I fully expect to work equally well or better.

Thanks for all the info David. Very good stuff!


60K grit.... is that .25 micron? What tools are you going that high on? I thought only razor guys and sushi chefs went that high (not that I'm judging...I'm all for excessive honing)

[David Barnett]

I mainly use ceramic water stones in the shop (chosera's and sigmas) but I like using the oils stone for convenience sake (and after this thread may start playing with diamond paste as a finish).

1µ (14,000 grit) is a good choice but there's no reason why a very fine finishing waterstone shouldn't work as well seeing as you presumably have one and are satisfied with it.


The arks also work great for german knives and my first straight razor is on the way so they may end up living upstairs for the razor and the knives instead of the workshop. For touching up the razor I want to make sure that the black is dead flat (currently a bit convex across its width).

I used Arkansas on my vintage Henckels for years but now prefer a well-broken-in diamond stone for those, as well. I've got a pocket Arkansas stone I use for a couple folders and desk knives, though, and I keep a translucent black on my jeweler's bench for older carbon steel gravers.

I can see why you want to flatten your black Arkansas if you're moving to a straight razor. I love wet shaving, but I'm a wuss when it comes to straights so stick with vintage Gillette double-edged.

By the way, seeing as your stone's slightly convex, spend extra time checking your progress during flattening and try to wear away the convexity as early as possible. There's a tendency to rock convex surfaces and to even worsen them if one's not careful.


The 600 grit diamond straight to the 1 micron diamond paste seems like a great setup for the shop. I probably wont replace my 800-1k water stones with the 600 grit diamond stone, but I'll definitely give going straight from the chosera 800 to 1 micron paste a go. I have no doubt it will work well.

It works. Yes, it seems like a big jump to some, and yes, both Bill Tindall and I have had our share of dissenters. But it works.


In my limited experience if you know what your doing its pretty easy to go from just about any medium stone (be it an india, a waterstone, or diamond stone) straight to honing compound...diamonds being more aggressive I fully expect to work equally well or better.

Diamonds can be more aggressive and can leave deeper scratches when not appropriately chosen, which is why learning the differences between monocrystalline and polycrystalline diamond is so important. Much criticism that arises is due to ignorance of those differences or failing or even choosing to not make the distinction for one reason or another.


60K grit.... is that .25 micron? What tools are you going that high on? I thought only razor guys and sushi chefs went that high (not that I'm judging...I'm all for excessive honing)

No, 60,000 grit is closer to ½µ than ¼µ. For a very long time, ½µ diamond had been nominally 50,000 grit but that's changed, at least among lapidaries, and rather than being rounded down to 50,000 is more accurately being represented at 60,000.

¼µ is still nominally 100,000 grit, but that may change, as well. ⅛µ is nominally 200,000, as you might expect.

Some enjoying exploring sub-micron diamond, both pastes and bonded films, and can attest to its worth—of which I have no doubt—but the returns beyond 1µ diminish quickly for my tool edges, so I'll usually hard strop with pure chromium oxide powder (which can easily be mixed into a paste for convenience)—again, not the aluminum-chromium oxide bars—to satisfy my sub-micron polishing needs.

Many paths...

[Kees Heiden]

I'm still at a loss what would be a good solution for my lapping vintage chisel backs problem. I am happy with my waterstones for all the other sharpening stuff, but it is the coarse side of things were I want to remove pitting and convexities in tool steel, where I am spending way too much time now.

It looks like I have to buy the diamonds from ebay in the US. Much more expensive overhere. When I am looking for some 100-120 micrometer paste, what is a good supplier? Or when I go the SiC route, what is good stuff that doesn't break down too quickly?

And about the plate. Steel plates seem to be not such a good idea. I don't know where to find cast iron apart from breaking up an old Stanley plane. I did read somehwere the Acrylic (plexiglass) is a good substrate for coarse diamonds. How silly is that idea?

[Chris Griggs]

1µ (14,000 grit) is a good choice but there's no reason why a very fine finishing waterstone shouldn't work as well seeing as you presumably have one and are satisfied with it.

I typically finish with a Naniwa Snow White 8k.. (I think its somewhere in the range of 1.75-2 micron). LV green stuff steps it up but I rarely bother. Plenty fine and very fast. 1 micron diamonds are cheap and intriguing though.



I can see why you want to flatten your black Arkansas if you're moving to a straight razor. I love wet shaving, but I'm a wuss when it comes to straights so stick with vintage Gillette double-edged.


We have Mr. Weaver to thank for my interest there. He lent me a straight to play with a few weeks ago and I had fun with it so now I have one of my own on the way.


By the way, seeing as your stone's slightly convex, spend extra time checking your progress during flattening and try to wear away the convexity as early as possible. There's a tendency to rock convex surfaces and to even worsen them if one's not careful.


Tell me about it!. The black came torpedoed... I've gotten it flatter than it came, but I've experienced exactly what you describe. I have found that lapping straight back and forth (as opposed to any type of circular motion) helps prevent this rocking.



It works. Yes, it seems like a big jump to some, and yes, both Bill Tindall and I have had our share of dissenters. But it works.

Diamonds can be more aggressive and can leave deeper scratches when not appropriately chosen, which is why learning the differences between monocrystalline and polycrystalline diamond is so important. Much criticism that arises is due to ignorance of those differences or failing or even choosing to not make the distinction for one reason or another.

No, 60,000 grit is closer to ½µ than ¼µ. For a very long time, ½µ diamond had been nominally 50,000 grit but that's changed, at least among lapidaries, and rather than being rounded down to 50,000 is more accurately being represented at 60,000.

¼µ is still nominally 100,000 grit, but that may change, as well. ⅛µ is nominally 200,000, as you might expect.

Some enjoying exploring sub-micron diamond, both pastes and bonded films, and can attest to its worth—of which I have no doubt—but the returns beyond 1µ diminish quickly for my tool edges, so I'll usually hard strop with pure chromium oxide powder (which can easily be mixed into a paste for convenience)—again, not the aluminum-chromium oxide bars—to satisfy my sub-micron polishing needs.


I have some .5 micron CrOx coming for the razor.

I agree with the diminishing return on tools. Honestly, I find that on anything beyond around 3 micron (e.g shatpon 5k, norton 8k, sigma 6k) your return on tools really starts to diminish. I'm not saying those returns are not ever valuable, in certain situations those small returns can become big. I certainly like chasing those uber fine edges, but in reality find after around that 3 micron range (if you do a good job up to that range) in most situations (in common North American woods anyway) your not going to see or feel that much of a difference in working the wood. YMMV...

[David Barnett]

Kees, I'm woefully ignorant of what's available across the pond but do know that stockists in the U.K. carry the Veritas® Lapping Plate* and SiC grits, which may offer your best hope. Although I've not used the Veritas plate, it looks to be a generous and well-machined hunk of cast iron for the price. I have used the SiC Lee Valley sells on the Harris lap many years ago and it seemed as good as any.

The important thing with SiC is sharp, blocky crystals and while SiC will break down, recharging the process is as easy as sprinkling on some more and commencing the rubbing. At the woodworking school I once attended in Massachusetts, one of the shops kept their SiC in salt shakers for the purpose. I also know someone who uses oil-based valve grinding compound to lap the backs of chisels and perhaps that's more easy procurable where you live.

One of the good things about SiC breaking down is that it gives a smooth transition to subsequent grits.

You mentioned pitting. I realize you're wishing to recondition vintage tools but if the pitting's deep, you may be better off with power methods; belt grinders or other means, to get through to unpitted metal. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to this type of work—especially coarser work on older tools—and know more about plated diamond rotating laps and points and loose diamond from as low as 30µ (600 grit) and up for carving and 6µ (3,000 grit) and up for faceting, and have no idea where to find coarse diamond in your desired micron range.

I'd also be concerned such coarse diamond might leave scratches that could take considerable work at other grits to remove. It may be best and actually faster to start with less coarse diamond, say, in the 45µ range and do more work at that level, but again, I'm no expert in that sort of work.

As for choice of plates, while steel isn't best by a long shot, it does work, and can be easier to find and is usually not overly expensive. One certainly can use acrylic/plexi/perspex for a substrate with diamond—not silly at all. Other choices might be Corian, copper, zinc, tin (too expensive right now) and a few others. Whatever lapping substrate you choose, remember, unlike for SiC, you'll need a separate lap for each diamond grit.

*http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/sharpening/lapping/Veritas_Lapping_Plate.html and http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/sharpening-stones-&-tools/lapping-compounds-&-plates/M2020/lapping-plate

[Metod Alif]

David,
I have been away from the forum for a couple of days. Today I began reading/re-reading the posts. so many appeared.
I live in Buffalo (Amherst - technically speaking), New York. I do use green compound from Woodcraft. I am happy with it 'even though it is rich green'. Noticeable difference after 8000 king stone. My plates are done - maybe some light touch-ups. I will get to the 'diamond phase' eventually, as I am busy with some other stuff now.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Metod Alif]

David,
Another big thank you for your sharing. The plated are done - maybe some small touch-ups. I will shift to the 'diamond phase' hopefully soon.
After (when needed) 220 ceramic water stone, I would continue wit 800, 1200, 3000, 8000 water stones and finish with a chromium oxide strop. I believe that my (from Woodcraft, many years ago) compound is of good quality). I really doen't take that long to go though all he grits (when needed), but 600 diamond plate - 1 micron paste - strop is definitely shorter. Sometimes I wish just to touch up on 8000, but have to go lower. Maybe diamond paste will be agresive enough.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Barnett]

I do use green compound from Woodcraft. I am happy with it 'even though it is rich green'. Noticeable difference after 8000 king stone. My plates are done - maybe some light touch-ups. I will get to the 'diamond phase' eventually, as I am busy with some other stuff now.

Metod,

I'm told the Woodcraft bar is chromium rich and works the way it should. 8000 King to the strop—that's a pretty good regimen as far as I'm concerned. Will be interested in your results whenever you've had time to use and evaluate diamond.

David

[David Barnett]

After (when needed) 220 ceramic water stone, I would continue wit 800, 1200, 3000, 8000 water stones and finish with a chromium oxide strop. I believe that my (from Woodcraft, many years ago) compound is of good quality). I really doen't take that long to go though all he grits (when needed), but 600 diamond plate - 1 micron paste - strop is definitely shorter. Sometimes I wish just to touch up on 8000, but have to go lower. Maybe diamond paste will be agresive enough.

You're welcome, Metod.

Yes, that is a big jump from 30µ to 1µ, but it works and is surprisingly fast. The 1µ cuts fast and leaves a smooth finish on a microbevel. Get's me right back to work with the least effort and time. I'll usually strop with chromium oxide once, twice, or even three times on chisels before going back to the 1µ for another touch-up. After after two or three returns to the 1µ I'll go back to the 600. It would also work to go back to 3µ (8000 grit) diamond, then 1µ and the strop, but this I only seem to do with carving tools.

As for planes, once I notice a difference in planing effort, I just go back to 1µ and do this maybe twice or depending on the species of wood, directly back to the 600 (30µ) for a quick touch-up and removal of the 1µ microbevel. It takes move time to touch up plane blades, so I'm apt to go back to the 600 stone more often than not rather than just the 1µ. But I'm also apt to vary the process depending on how things are progressing, my mood, whatever.

And yes, 1µ is aggressive enough to work quickly and leave a smooth finish. Great stuff.

David

[Steve Voigt]

This is an amazing thread.
I have a question: I need to change my sharpening routine (new shop situation--need to save space). I'm on a tight budget, so I'd like to find the most economical route possible. Would the following (post dry-grinder) routine work?
1) Medium India stone (8 x 3)
2) LV steel honing plate with 3 micron diamond paste (or should I use a different grit?)
3) Green honing compound on a piece of MDF.

Basically, this is the TFWW method, but I'm substituting a $23 steel plate and maybe $10 worth of paste for an $80 black or translucent Arkansas stone. I also get the impression that the diamond paste would cut faster than the arkie.
I know I could save money by using smaller oilstones, but I really prefer the larger size, so don't want to go that route.
Good idea? Terrible idea?

-Steve

[David Weaver]

This is an amazing thread.
I have a question: I need to change my sharpening routine (new shop situation--need to save space). I'm on a tight budget, so I'd like to find the most economical route possible. Would the following (post dry-grinder) routine work?
1) Medium India stone (8 x 3)
2) LV steel honing plate with 3 micron diamond paste (or should I use a different grit?)
3) Green honing compound on a piece of MDF.

Basically, this is the TFWW method, but I'm substituting a $23 steel plate and maybe $10 worth of paste for an $80 black or translucent Arkansas stone. I also get the impression that the diamond paste would cut faster than the arkie.
I know I could save money by using smaller oilstones, but I really prefer the larger size, so don't want to go that route.
Good idea? Terrible idea?

-Steve

It's a fine idea for the last step. The only time a black arkansas stone will cut faster than 1 micron diamond is when it's fresh off the stonecutter's wheel, or has a very heavy slurry, and the material being cut is soft carbon steel. Even hard carbon steel (like japanese hardness) will vex a settled in stone.

And the diamonds won't care what type of steel you're using, they'll cut anything quickly.

[David Barnett]

I'm on a tight budget, so I'd like to find the most economical route possible. Would the following (post dry-grinder) routine work?

1) Medium India stone (8 x 3)
2) LV steel honing plate with 3 micron diamond paste (or should I use a different grit?)
3) Green honing compound on a piece of MDF.

I also get the impression that the diamond paste would cut faster than the arkie.

I know I could save money by using smaller oilstones, but I really prefer the larger size, so don't want to go that route.
Good idea? Terrible idea?

Headed in the right direction but you can do better.

There are those who'll disagree about the steel honing plates from Lee Valley, but I'd not bother with them unless you can't find a scrap of acrylic/plexiglass or perhaps a copper-coated phenolic piece of undrilled circuit board, Corian or even masonite or hard cardboard—all which will save you money. Later, you can move up to cast iron after you've tried the diamond and are satisfied that it works.

If whatever substrate you find is thin, though, glue it to something flat and thicker, such as MDF. I'm the least fond of steel used with diamond paste of any lapping substrate and not so fond of any steel plate that's flat to only 5-thousandths of an inch across its entire surface—as Lee Valley's states "Precision-ground to a flatness tolerance of 0.005" over the entire surface."—which to me is nothing to brag about. Save your money.

Also, you would do better, both monetarily and for a better quality sharpening experience, to forgo the medium India stone and buy an Eze-Lap 600-grit diamond stone—a more versatile and cost-effective choice.

Let's see; an 8"x3" medium India stone will run you about $16.95, and the plate $24.50, which comes to $41.50, and the Eze-Lap*—

http://tinyurl.com/Eze-Lap600grit8x3

[By the way, if you can't wait until that item is re-stocked, you can order the same stone with 'sheath' for about $3 dollars more. As of this posting, there are 3 stones left—http://tinyurl.com/Eze-Lap600gritwithcover]

...at $34.83 would save you $6.62. With free shipping from Amazon, that saves you at least another $8.95 shipping from Lee Valley, the shipping from Lee Valley and wherever else, putting you ahead $15.57.

With a 600-grit Eze-Lap diamond stone and a piece of plastic for a lap to use with 14,000 grit diamond paste—forget the 3,000—you're good to go. You can still use the honing compound if you wish, but don't buy the Lee Valley bar as it's mostly aluminum oxide with just enough chromium oxide to keep it green. There are other bars that will serve you as well or better and there's plain chromium oxide powder, as well.

By the way, if you do choose 14,000 grit diamond paste (1µ) you really won't need that honing compound bar unless you just really want to try it. But if you do hone with chromium oxide bars, powders or pastes, hard cardboard works amazingly well, as well as MDF if not better, and is totally cheap.

And don't pay $10 or more for diamond paste. You can get five grams of perfectly good diamond paste for as little as $4 on eBay or from other websites, such as...

http://jadecarver.com/DiamondTools.htm

...which I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Just to recap—your proposal costs:

16.95 medium India stone 8x3
24.50 steel honing plate
10.00 3,000 grit paste (or 14,000)
12.50 honing compound
_____
63.95 plus at least
08.95 shipping
_____
72.90

My proposal costs:

34.83 Eze-Lap 600 grit diamond stone 8x3 (free shipping)
02.00 for a piece of acrylic or whatever (possibly free)
04.00 14,000 grit diamond paste
06.95 shipping, if that, for the diamond
_____
47.53 for a savings of 25.37, or 35%

Your call.

And if you do want to strop with genuine chromium oxide, you can buy 3 oz at http://shop.starshaving.com/product.sc?productId=8&categoryId=8 for $11.69, or from lapidary suppliers for much cheaper at $11.95 a pound (near bottom of page)—http://shop.starshaving.com/product.sc?productId=8&categoryId=8.

Two other benefits with the Eze-Lap—you'll not have to worry about deglazing your bench stone—a scrubby pad and a little Comet or Bon Ami will do the trick—and you'll never ever have to flatten it.

This doesn't address flattening plane iron and chisel backs, of course, but sandpaper can go a long way to accomplishing that—at least at first.

You may well hear others tell you there are better methods, and perhaps to some there are. This is where I usually disclaim that I have nothing against other sharpening methods and technologies and explain that for beginners who've not already made an investment in stones, diamond offers a less costly start at getting woodworking hand tools very sharp and keeping them so.

Neither am I saying that diamond is superior to other sharpening methods and technologies. Only for especially hard steels, so-called exotics, and so on, is diamond a must, but for cheap, fast, and low maintenance it's gonna be hard to beat. And it works. And works well.

Hope this helps.

*thanks to David Weaver for that link

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

. . . but I'd not bother with them unless you can't find a scrap of acrylic/plexiglass or perhaps a copper-coated phenolic piece of undrilled circuit board . . .k

I knew I was hanging onto some of those extra offcuts of unetched boards for a reason!

For those in the US, last I checked, a lot of Radio Shacks still carry blank circuit board material, (although not the ones in malls it seems) but it's been a while since I've been in one.

[David Barnett]

For those in the US, last I checked, a lot of Radio Shacks still carry blank circuit board material, (although not the ones in malls it seems) but it's been a while since I've been in one.

Yeah, there's just enough copper to give purchase to diamond grit, although it's probably overkill for 1µ and sub-micron grit. The boards are thin, so it's best to affix them to a thicker substrate.

You can still find circuit board blanks at Radio Shack but just try to find the ferric choride to etch them—no longer carried.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks for the advice guys.
Dave B.--I didn't realize the LV plate was only flat to 5 thou. Bar stock is almost that flat, so I'll take your advice and look for something cheaper. I actually have an 8 x 10, inch-thick steel plate that I surface-ground myself (years ago when I worked as a machinist), but it's too big, and I want to keep it flat to use as a reference surface/sandpaper substrate. It works great for the heavier tasks, like flattening old laminated irons; the stuff I asked about is strictly for honing.
Anyway, sounds like I'm on the right track. Thanks for the input!

-Steve

[David Barnett]

Yeah, 5 thou just doesn't cut it for me.

You're welcome, and while you were probably writing your reply, I was editing mine to include another in-stock Eze-Lap 600-grit plate and two sources for chromium oxide.

Glad to help.

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Dave (or anyone who's done this),
With the green chromium powder, do you just sprinkle it on the lap, or use it dry? If the former, what do you mix it with?

-Steve

[David Weaver]

I use it dry on razors on balsa, and dry on horse butt or MDF for tools (rarely for tools). If you want to add something, you can mix it thick with any light oil or put a drop or two of light oil on an MDF lap.

I'd not use chromium oxide on a steel lap, it has too much potential when it's on a substrate with a little give.

[Metod Alif]

David,
Ah, the beauty of efficiency. Thanks again. Going directly from 800 to 8000 did not give me good results in 'reasonable' amount of time. I would have to spend more time on 8000 than if going through the steps mentioned earlier.
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

Got both ezelaps in the past week. Though I don't necessarily need two (or any) while they were cheap, I dumped a SF and F (1200 and 600 grit) in the cart.

I was wrong about the ezlaps long ago deciding in favor of DMT because they look a little more tidy. I broke the SF in this week and it has that wonderful crisp settled in feel that my generic polycrystalline lap has, but it was actually cheaper and it's flat.

The HAP chisel that stu sent me is a bear on stones, but the settled in SF shredded it raising a fat wire edge easily. Before it was settled in, it was that short ultra brash honeymoon that all diamond hones have where they make all steel seem like styrofoam. But after that went away, it settled into a very nice feel and still pummels the stuff that goes slow in the waterstones.

Still do like the way stones work the edge on pure carbon steel a little better in that range, but on the gummy stuff it rips. Super hones for the price.

(some people reading might think...oh, cheap way to flatten stones, too. Maybe. I didn't like it as much for that as the atoma, the diamonds are on the ezelap at more random spacing and heights. But to hone tools, great....very pleasantly surprised with the feel and the flatness).

[Steve Voigt]

Dave, really appreciate the report on the Eze laps. They sure sound good. If you've ever used Norton India stones, how do these compare (for example, to the medium and fine india)? Is it worth spending more on the Eze laps?

-Steve

[David Weaver]

Not in my opinion, I guess, unless you have things that are a struggle to sharpen on a medium and fine india stone, or there's something you don't like about them.

In terms of comparison, a fresh india stone (one that's been abraded hard) cuts fast on carbon steel, especially if it's a little on the soft side. Once these (ezelaps) settled in , they probably don't cut quite as fast on that kind of stuff (they're finer in terms of particle size), but they are completely indifferent about what you sharpen on them. The HAP (powder metal) steel chisel stu sent me is a bear on the stones, the aggressive ones, let alone the india, but it hones like nothing on diamonds.

Others and I have made our opinions known about the DMT hones before, that once they get dull, they just feel dull because of the mono diamonds. The polycrystalline diamonds i've had experience with get finer but they continue to cut with a very nice feel, and the finish on the steel in my opinion is a little nicer (fewer stray deep grooves on a worn in poly crystalline stone). I've blown out a couple of DMTs, and for what they had cost, it's hard to swallow. At $35, it's not such a big deal, especially if the stone has a nice feel the whole way, and we have at least two people vouching they've been using the ezelaps for a long time.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks Dave, that's great to know, especially since I mostly just use O1 and vintage cast steel.

-Steve

[Kees Heiden]

I am going to order some coarse diamonds from ebay. Probably first trying to use them on some plexiglass. Now, I was also looking at the Lee Valley lapping plate, and read the instructions on the web before plunking down 77 euros. And I do'n't think I understand their instructions at all! Or I don't understand what they want you to do with the lapping plate. They say, not to use diamonds, laping is only for fine metal removal, and coarse grits take longer? I don't need a lapping blade to remove the grinding scratches on a new chisel, my waterstones have no problem with that. I want something to help me restore old vintage stuff with problems on the face side.

Here are the instructions for the LV lapping plate: http://www.leevalley.com/US/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=59753

[Jack Curtis]

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=69438&cat=1,43072

This is the one I thought I recommended, not the lapping plate. Sorry for any confustion.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, but that one is steel, which as far as I understand is not the best choice for diamonds? The lapping plate is cast iron. And I read in this discussion that it isn't even very flat at all.

I am just totally confused about the whole diamond business. Information overload.

[David Weaver]

I am going to order some coarse diamonds from ebay. Probably first trying to use them on some plexiglass. Now, I was also looking at the Lee Valley lapping plate, and read the instructions on the web before plunking down 77 euros. And I do'n't think I understand their instructions at all! Or I don't understand what they want you to do with the lapping plate. They say, not to use diamonds, laping is only for fine metal removal, and coarse grits take longer? I don't need a lapping blade to remove the grinding scratches on a new chisel, my waterstones have no problem with that. I want something to help me restore old vintage stuff with problems on the face side.

Here are the instructions for the LV lapping plate: http://www.leevalley.com/US/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=59753

Mild steel will work fine with coarse diamonds. It's not as nice with the medium and finer ones, though. I would prefer to use mild steel with the coarse diamonds over plexiglass.

But in the light plate that jack showed if you don't have another cheaper source. I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that most people who have the big LV plate with the interrupted surface do what I do, which is to store it in the bench and think about how much more useful it seemed like it would be than it really is. Everything you'd do on it (lap chisels, lap small planes, etc) is just generally done better on something else (an uninterrupted plate with diamonds for the chisels, or al-ox psa sandpaper, and the al-ox psa sandpaper for planes).

[David Barnett]

Everything you'd do on it (lap chisels, lap small planes, etc) is just generally done better on something else (an uninterrupted plate with diamonds for the chisels, or al-ox psa sandpaper, and the al-ox psa sandpaper for planes).

The channels on the Lee Valley cast iron lapping plate are far wider, too few and farther apart than they need to be. Also, the interrupted surface is neither necessary nor advantageous for narrow chisels. I agree that uninterrupted plates are fine for all honing tasks with diamond.

Flattening on sandpaper, if you're careful to avoid buckling and pay attention to technique, is totally fine for both planes and chisels. I'd still prefer to do the final laps on a fixed diamond stone—not the entire back, though—just near the edge.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for saving me 77 euros. :)
I'll start with plexiglass, because that is for free. I have a set of diamant paste syringes heading my way. So I now just patiently wait until they arrive. Just using the stuff will probably learn me more then reading more about it on the forums. :D

[David Weaver]

Flattening on sandpaper, if you're careful to avoid buckling and pay attention to technique, is totally fine for both planes and chisels. I'd still prefer to do the final laps on a fixed diamond stone—not the entire back, though—just near the edge.

Yeah, me too on finishing the back with something more firm. The PSA roll paper (I've been getting mirka gold for about 5 or 6 years, or whatever they've branded their premium al-ox) is forgiving because you can lap on it like a stone and it has enough adhesive that it will never buckle. Same with 3x if there's enough goop under it to make sure absolutely none of it moves.

But the stone is still more precise and a more logical next step after 100 or 200 grit sandpaper (or more preferably, 100 grit sandpaper that has been worn to the latter in use).

[Kees Heiden]

I really want to get away from sandpaper on glass. I can't find the psa stuff and using sprayglue is a pain. I also always dub the corners.

[Jack Curtis]

...Just using the stuff will probably learn me more then reading more about it on the forums. :D

That's for sure, just put a foot down on the circle somewhere and get started. It's lots more fun than spending your days engaging in a plethora of petty prattle (your English lesson for today :) ).

[Andrew Bell]

There was some talk about using loose diamonds because of the quality assurance and price. I was wondering if its possible to make your own diamond spray or crayon from the loose diamond powder? Also is it possible to create your own crox spray / crayon from the raw ingredient? This feels easier to get even distribution than using a finger.... Thanks

[Chris Griggs]

There was some talk about using loose diamonds because of the quality assurance and price. I was wondering if its possible to make your own diamond spray or crayon from the loose diamond powder? Also is it possible to create your own crox spray / crayon from the raw ingredient? This feels easier to get even distribution than using a finger.... Thanks

I can't speak for diamond but I've been mixing my CrOx powder with mineral oil and make a paste when I spread it on my strops. I don't see why you couldn't mix it with some mix of wax and oil and make sorta a soft crayon. I'd rather just use it as a powder or paste though. I've only been working with pure CrOx for a couple weeks though so either of the Dave's can probably give you a better answer.

[David Weaver]

You could make your own crayon with beeswax, or you could make a paste with beeswax and mineral oil or just mineral oil.

I wouldn't want to spray diamonds around in my shop, and a distribution as even as a spray provides is probably only necessary on razor strops.

Someone makes the various chromium oxide powders, I can't remember their name, but they have varying levels of other things in the powders, some much more pure chromium oxide than others. If I could remember the name, you could just look theirs up.

The stuff that's sold to razor folks is back and forth between being the most expensive when compared to woodworking retailers, and the only pure crayon that I've seen is one marketed by thiers issard, and it's expensive.

You can pave the way with the crayons, though, if you'd like. If I were going to do a crayon with diamonds, it would be closer to a paste with mostly oil and very little beeswax. If chromium oxide, I guess you could balance between carnauba wax, beeswax depending on how hard you want it to be (like if you want to apply it to a buffing wheel).

I wouldn't bother with any of it, though, other than maybe making a mineral oil based paste with the chromium oxide.

For diamonds, the easy way to use them is to put your finger in the baggie they're in, dry, and you'll get a tiny amount sticking to your finger. Just smoosh your finger around like you're sprinkling salt over your substrate and it will end up pretty even. It should all end up on the substrate that way, too.

[Chris Griggs]

Someone makes the various chromium oxide powders, I can't remember their name, but they have varying levels of other things in the powders, some much more pure chromium oxide than others. If I could remember the name, you could just look theirs up.

Hand American, I believe is who you're thinking of.

This place has the best pricing I've found on the stuff.

http://shop.starshaving.com/category.sc;jsessionid=CB1B64ED84FF6B4A57371E3C306 A877A.qscstrfrnt02?categoryId=8

As much as I typically like Chef Knives To Go, the folks who sell this stuff through them (IIRC its Ken Schwarz) put like a 100% mark-up on it.

[David Weaver]

Formax is the name of the company. Though I don't see anything they have that's green chromium oxide that's not blended with aluminum oxide. That said, I can't think of anything that needs to be sharper than the crayon shown here will make, it definitely steps up the edge off of every stone I've used, even if it's not as pure as chromium oxide powder.

http://www.formaxmfg.com/individually-boxed--labeled

They could be contacted, I guess, but it's a matter of chasing something not needed. I just don't think the effort to make pastes is probably worth it, anyway, unless it's chromium oxide in mineral oil (that wouldn't take much effort).

Yeah, CKTG's stuff that includes Ken Schwartz has prices that don't make sense to me. It may be that too many people need a slice of each transaction. Most of the posturing between the different retailers trying to convince you that you need to spend GOBS of money for something they just repackaged (you know, pictures of each others diamonds and claims about particles sticking togehter, etc) make no sense to me when you can get cheap pigments and cheap loose diamonds.

[Chris Griggs]

Most of the posturing between the different retailers trying to convince you that you need to spend GOBS of money for something they just repackaged (you know, pictures of each others diamonds and claims about particles sticking togehter, etc) make no sense to me when you can get cheap pigments and cheap loose diamonds.

Yeah, as you know the pigment suppliers is a new discovery for me. Some of the razor guys get their CrOx from here (http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=0101&lang=ENG&product=44200). 100 grams .3 micron CrOx for under $8... As Dave already knows, there are other finer pigments you can purchase from this place as well but its stupid overkill for tools. Pigments get into levels of sharpness that are probably a total waste of time on tools (unless maybe your carving and paring spruce all day), but they are fun to mess with and as Dave has said before and I now understand, if you shave with a straight you can feel the difference on your face.

[Glenn Vaughn]

It looks like the beauty of diamonds hasn't quite reached the Dutch shores yet. I can't find anyone supplying these.

How about silicum carbide? That stuff is cheap and very easy to get.

I did find a mild steel plate in the shop, but am afraid it is far from flat. So just to be sure I'll order the Veritas one.

I have purchased from http://www.diamondtech.com/products/categories/diamond_powder_price_list.html - grits from 60 to 60,000. No problem with the company but customs in the USA made me jump throu hoops.

[Andrew Bell]

I have purchased from http://www.diamondtech.com/products/categories/diamond_powder_price_list.html - grits from 60 to 60,000. No problem with the company but customs in the USA made me jump throu hoops.

Thanks for the link and all the other comments above; I think I'll just use mineral oil and the loose on the fingers approach in my experimentation, I had just assumed that the sprays / creams / pastes / crayons served a more practical purpose, the general consensus is that they dont so as I'd rther spend my time woodworking I'll leave it for now.

[David Weaver]

Crayons are handy for applying compound to a power buffer, not so great for much else unless they're really soft.

Sprays are popular for soft strops where the diamond basically stays where it lands. You won't be bound by that.

[Metod Alif]

My idea is similar to yours. I just got some diamond powder two days ago. Mixed a pinch with a few drops of WD-40. I used an old (clean) artists brush an painted a thin film on a plate. I keep what's left of the batch for future applications. It works fine. Would a commercial paste work better? I don't know.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Andrew Bell]

I was wondering if anyone has tried embedding the diamonds in an old cabinet scraper for sharpening? Some of us are unable to source an old plane body and don't want to use mdf.

[David Weaver]

You don't want something that hard. Pick anything made of mild steel or cast iron.

[Alan Schwabacher]

How about a disc brake rotor? Is that an appropriate hardness?

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure if they're cast or if they're mild steel. If they're either of those, they'd work fine. You can try. If they're too hard, the diamond just won't embed that well.

[Glenn Vaughn]

Before the eyes went bad I was playing with gemstone faceting. That is why I bought the diamond poweders. The machines use copper laps for holding the diamond powder. I will admit that a copper lap can be a little procy.

[David Weaver]

Oh, as this gets to faceting, David Barnett will certainly reappear if he sees that :)

[Metod Alif]

Yesterday I brushed some diamond powder on a 1/4" thick scrap of solid surface. There were no markings, so I do not know whether it is Corian or some other brand. This time I used few drops of mineral spirits to spread the dust. It works as well (for now) as the cast iron plate. How long will it last? No idea. If longer than sandpaper, I am still ahead. I doubt that the powder was worth more than 10 cents. Scrap was free. Get this with sandpaper - scrap is about 3"x9".

Metod