Toothing your bench?

[Kees Heiden]

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/tooth-your-benchtop-in-four-songs


I do have a pine workbench, and I do have a nice old horned toothing plane also. I must say, I'm tempted...

[Chris Fournier]

Scrubing a bench maybe but toothing? Perhaps if a toothed blade was used. The lack of finish is likely every bit as much a contributing factor of the newfound grip as the scrubing. Another example of doing something to write about.

[Jim Koepke]

Just goes to show there is more than one way to finish a bench.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I think that guy just needs to publish stuff and is running out of ideas

[Brett Robson]

Here's a video where Patrick Edwards demonstrates said toothed bench. I like his two-sided bench idea! I wish I had room for that feature on my bench.

http://woodtreks.com/design-build-traditional-woodworking-workbench-tail-shoulder-leg-vises/1651/

[Mel Fulks]

Stanley ,Enjoyed reading that, even though you seem to have a grudge against mad scientists .

[Chris Fournier]

Now we're toothing our benches for a greater coefficient of friction yet plane makers have corrugated plane soles for less friction for years. But, but, but...

Once the journalist intelligencia have raised bench plane cutting geometry to scraping angles and LA plane geometery has been improved with micro bevels that bring the cutting angle to 45 degrees they will "invent" block planes to much fanfare and ticker tape. The scraper will of course be a stupid and redundant tool of the past, though a valuable collector's item. Then in a heady rush they will explain to us that we can take a handsaw and turn it into a circular cutting edge that can be rotated by mechanical means. We will be drawn to their alter of creativity and genius like iron filings to a magnet.

[Stanley Covington]

And thus we see that all things are circular....

[Chris Fournier]

Not just circular Stanley - "Scary Circular". Patent pending.

[Kees Heiden]

Do you mean I should not tooth my bench?

[Stanley Covington]

Do you mean I should not tooth my bench?

It depends. If your bench needs to be trued, and the wood used for the top tends to tearout, then using a toothing plane followed by a smoothing plane or scraper makes perfect sense.

I use my benches (I have three) not just to clamp workpieces for sawing, planing, chiseling,, etc. but as jigs to (1) provide a flat surface to support boards properly during planing, and (2) quickly determine if a workpiece is indeed flat or not. While I have not used a toothing plane on my benchtops, I suspect the accuracy would not be improved.

I also suspect that a toothed surface would collect dust and grit, things I want to keep away from my projects, and that can easily be removed from a smooth surface.

I am absolutely certain than any glue that dropped onto the workbench top would be very difficult to remove from the depressions. Of course, toothing planes have always been used primarily for preparing the ground for veneer and ensuring a good glue bond. They excel at creating a grooved surface that glue loves to inhabit. I also suspect that the ridges of wood created by the toothing plane would become hard and abrasive after the glue dried. In the case of a smooth benchtop, glue is not a problem if I hit it with a damp rag quickly.

So no, I would not recommend it. But I have never tried it, so what do I know.

[Kees Heiden]

That's a pitty. You know I have this nice French Goldenberg horned toothing plane, but I really have no use for it...

In fact my bench made from some kind of pine/spruce/fir is pretty rough allready on the top. I think it has all the friction it needs. So no toothing for me I am afraid. Most important it is flat.

[John Coloccia]

It would be far simpler to simply toss a sheet of particle board on top of the bench. You can also do what I do, and use a rubber routing mat, or some of that sticky material from Lee Valley....and their hockey pucks too, which I also use. You can also use a vacuum setup, which is awesome. I'm bringing one of those into my shop in a couple of weeks.

But anyhow, friction is generally independent of surface area of the object, so making little ridges is not an effective way of increasing friction. If you want things to stick better to your bench, take some 80 grit sandpaper and get rid of whatever finish you have on it. I guess you could plane off the finish with a toothing plane and then pretend the ridges are doing something, but that seems like a really terrible solution to a very simple problem.

Incidentally, to show you some of the utter insanity and, frankly, idiocy of some of this stuff these days, read this review of the Sjobergs Elite 2000 workbench....the bench I happen to use, actually.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/tool-guide/product-finder/sjoberg-elite-2000-workbench.aspx

Notice one of the complaints.


The only other complaint was the slightly rough and low-luster oil-finished surface, a minor blemish on an otherwise excellent bench.

I remember reading that review when I was deciding on a bench. Hey, let's all get our benches nice and shinny, wax them, and then let's plane little ridges in them so that they actually work like a workbench. :rolleyes: That review helped me decide on the Sjobergs. It sounded to me like they actually knew what they were doing.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I toothed my bench when I built it. It is a great way to avoid tearout when leveling a stringy wood like the ash of my benchtop. After toothing it was very quick to use my #7 set fine to smooth the final finish.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, I don't really have a problem with my bench. It doesn't have a finish. A bit more friction wouldn't harm at all, of course, but I can see the negative effects of the toothing. Working with rubber sheets or so is not really practical.

So I leave this solution for what it is and will continue my plain bench as usual.

[David Weaver]

Some coarse sandpaper scuffing the top in a minute would seem a lot more practical than toothing.

[Jim Matthews]

Patrick Edwards, the maker of "Old Brown Glue" and a traditionally trained woodworker in the French marquetry style.

His bench illustrated in this video (http://woodtreks.com/design-build-traditional-woodworking-workbench-tail-shoulder-leg-vises/1651/) has a bench that is 1/2 the Frank Klaus European bench, 1/2 a narrow Roubo design.
At 3:01 he discusses the notion that a bench is a rough tool designed to hold workpieces. The toothing makes the surface
lightly abrasive, so things won't slide.

Patrick suggests this to be done once every six months or so - and he's in a high production setting.

It's worth noting that this idea is not new, and I first saw this nearly two years ago on Keith Cruckshank's site.
The magazines appear to be using us, and our resources to fill their pages.

That's not exactly leading the way, is it.

[Stanley Covington]

Working with rubber sheets or so is not really practical.

If you know someone at a roofing contractor, or can dig in the trashpile of a building jobsite where they are using a roofing membrane, scraps of this rubber-based material with glass fiber reinforcing works great. Tough, non-slip, non-wiggle, free.

Stan

[John Coloccia]

If you know someone at a roofing contractor, or can dig in the trashpile of a building jobsite where they are using a roofing membrane, scraps of this rubber-based material with glass fiber reinforcing works great. Tough, non-slip, non-wiggle, free.

Stan

The stuff Lee Valley sells is great too. I use it all the time when I'm sanding...or scraping...or whatever. When I just want the piece to hold still. It's very liberating not to have to clamp it.

[Charlie Stanford]

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workbenches/schwarz-workbenches/tooth-your-benchtop-in-four-songs


I do have a pine workbench, and I do have a nice old horned toothing plane also. I must say, I'm tempted...

One fervently hopes his fifteen minutes are close to having elapsed. I'll chalk this up to a momentary lapse of editing at PW during the transition. That article never should have made it to print.

[Stanley Covington]

That's a pitty. You know I have this nice French Goldenberg horned toothing plane, but I really have no use for it...

So you were just looking for an excuse to use your toothing plane then, right? Ha Ha!:)

I would love to see a picture of that puppy!

Stan

[Kees Heiden]

Yes you understand. Just a weak moment.

I have some pics on my photobucket site.

254690

254691

[John Coloccia]

Yes you understand. Just a weak moment.

I have some pics on my photobucket site.

254690

254691

You ca do an experiment. Take a piece of wood....that one behind the plane in the first picture will do. Leave one face smooth, rough up one face with 80 grit sandpaper, and hit the 3rd face with the toothing plane, and then rub it on the bench, clamp it to the bench, etc. See which one you like best.

[Sean Hughto]

I like Chris. He is like an earnest woodworking buddy who is willing to share what he has figured out recently. His explorations are usually empirical. He is sincerely trying to impart his findings. Now, since its a journey over time, he may later learn things that contradict what he thought he knew last year or whatever. But this is a fact of life. Even the most experienced and expert among us are always learning new things. No woodworker is hatched knowing the best answer to everything for all time.

I think Chris is reasonably humble. Like any personality, his fan base has awarded him a mantle; he doesn't seem to actively be trying to claim it. Many folks seem to reflexively try to pull down people who others admire. Oh well.

[george wilson]

Stanley and Charlie: We are in absolutely PERFECT agreement here!!!!!:)

I'm not going to tooth my bench,inviting every bit of crud,glue and dirt to get into the surface. I agree,using a mat of some kind is better,anyway. Even a toothed surface is not going to have significant grip. The toothing will soon be full of crud anyway,that will likely decrease its dubious gripping powers,leaving you with only a dirty,scarred up surface on your bench. Spend a lot of time and money making a nice bench,then tooth it? I've got a nice bench made of beechwood that I had custom cut and air dried for years. I'm not desecrating it like that when a sheet of material laid on the bench will be better,and easier on your project's surface. What's to prevent abrasive grits as well as other stuff from accumulating in the toothed surface? Even vacuuming might not get it all.

And,no,this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea.

[Chris Fournier]

I like Chris. He is like an earnest woodworking buddy who is willing to share what he has figured out recently. His explorations are usually empirical. He is sincerely trying to impart his findings. Now, since its a journey over time, he may later learn things that contradict what he thought he knew last year or whatever. But this is a fact of life. Even the most experienced and expert among us are always learning new things. No woodworker is hatched knowing the best answer to everything for all time.

I think Chris is reasonably humble. Like any personality, his fan base has awarded him a mantle; he doesn't seem to actively be trying to claim it. Many folks seem to reflexively try to pull down people who others admire. Oh well.

I understand your point of view Sean but in this instance my reaction is first about a silly idea and secondly about the media mill that doesn't really edit content as well as it should because the presses must run to keep the lights on. Having really gobbled up everything I could get my hands on 20 or more years ago I am certain that magazines and books were actually full of much better content than today, the internet has exacerbated the situation too. As Chris Griggs (in another thread) and the good book have said "There is nothing new under the Sun" but this hasn't stopped us from rehashing it. There are lot's of opportunities to write about new materials and creative processes that we could use in our shops but if someone is staking a claim as an old school hand tool expert then they will necessarily be regurgative and struggle for relevant material and they'll likely be called out for it on occasion.

[Charlie Stanford]

Stanley and Charlie: We are in absolutely PERFECT agreement here!!!!!:)

I'm not going to tooth my bench,inviting every bit of crud,glue and dirt to get into the surface. I agree,using a mat of some kind is better,anyway. Even a toothed surface is not going to have significant grip. The toothing will soon be full of crud anyway,that will likely decrease its dubious gripping powers,leaving you with only a dirty,scarred up surface on your bench. Spend a lot of time and money making a nice bench,then tooth it? I've got a nice bench made of beechwood that I had custom cut and air dried for years. I'm not desecrating it like that when a sheet of material laid on the bench will be better,and easier on your project's surface. What's to prevent abrasive grits as well as other stuff from accumulating in the toothed surface? Even vacuuming might not get it all.

And,no,this isn't about personalities. It's just a silly idea.

Any toothing on a pine workbench top will soon be rounded over making it as slick, if not slicker, than before. Perhaps it has to be toothed on a regular basis to keep it 'fresh.' Maybe Chris forgot to ask Patrick Edwards about that or note by observation whether its supposed benefits were limited to the practice of marquetry.

I think the problem with Chris Schwarz, generally, is that no thought or tangent of his goes unexpressed and usually so in a national woodworking magazine.

I also figure the lemmings are toothing their benches as we speak.

[george wilson]

The LEMMINGS!! great!!!

[Kees Heiden]

Any other, and this time usefull, purposes for my toothing plane?
I am not really into veneering, so that one is out. As a scrubplane? I don't know, this one has very fine teeth, it doesn't scrub very well.

[David Weaver]

Without veneering, it's out. (might make a neat desk ornament at work. You could yank peoples' chains and call it a 19th century julienne machine - or zester if it's too fine for that).

[Zach Callum]

I like Chris. He is like an earnest woodworking buddy who is willing to share what he has figured out recently. His explorations are usually empirical. He is sincerely trying to impart his findings. Now, since its a journey over time, he may later learn things that contradict what he thought he knew last year or whatever. But this is a fact of life. Even the most experienced and expert among us are always learning new things. No woodworker is hatched knowing the best answer to everything for all time.

I think Chris is reasonably humble. Like any personality, his fan base has awarded him a mantle; he doesn't seem to actively be trying to claim it. Many folks seem to reflexively try to pull down people who others admire. Oh well.

I think that there is a little bit of that going on.

No one has brought up this, W Partick Edwards, who is mentioned as being the inspiration for the toothing experiment. What is the big deal? I don't think that any of you have tried it, maybe its not such a bad idea.

[Kees Heiden]

Without veneering, it's out. (might make a neat desk ornament at work. You could yank peoples' chains and call it a 19th century julienne machine - or zester if it's too fine for that).

So it looks like I'll have to try veneering sometime.
Or sell the plane.

Maybe the julienne idea isn't so bad afterall.

[Prashun Patel]

"Some coarse sandpaper scuffing"...

Please, no profanity.... ;)

[george wilson]

Jach,I am a life long professional craftsman.73 in a few days. 39 year master craftsman in Williamsburg. Instrument maker since 1954. Teacher up to college level. I've never seen any other professional tooth his bench. But,don't take my word for it. I can assure you,sometimes guys try to denigrate me too,but I stand behind my work(that way I can dodge the tomatoes,cabbage,etc.!)

[Alice Frampton]

Any other, and this time usefull, purposes for my toothing plane?
I am not really into veneering, so that one is out.

An article on making your own toothing plane in The Woodworker magazine, October 1927 also suggests "resinous and oily woods similar to rosewood and padouk do not take kindly to glue unless they have their surfaces toothed". Oh, and then goes on "and even a bench top which is toothed diagonally with the grain will prevent wood which is being planed from slipping about the bench."

So, um, yeah. Darn these magazine folks and their new-fangled ideas, as my great granddaddy always used to say...

Cheers, Alf

[Chris Fournier]

Any other, and this time usefull, purposes for my toothing plane?
I am not really into veneering, so that one is out. As a scrubplane? I don't know, this one has very fine teeth, it doesn't scrub very well.

Figured wood or gnarly grain can get pretty demanding and a toothed blade can help you get to a nice surface while minimizing teraout. I have tootehd blades for my bench planes for just such situations.

[george wilson]

But,Alice,a study done by the U.S. government back in the 80's,complete with lab testing, and featured in FWW magazine stated that smooth surfaces adhere better when glued than toothed surfaces. so,we have 2 contradicting articles. And,I still haven't seen a pro tooth his bench. As mentioned above,nothing new under the Sun. Just those who dig it up and publish it (as new stuff?) make it seem that way. The same thing happened with chip breakers a while back.

Know anything about the qualifications of the 1927 author? The English might have some different ways of doing things. Old Mr. Simms,the English furniture conservator in the 70's in Williamsburg,screwed his oil stones down to a cabinet. I know no one else who was so adamant about doing this. Roy had his tool chest on his show.

Personally,I am a bit old fashioned,and would prefer to tooth when veneering,myself,but that's just me,and I don't apply it to benches for reasons I already stated. Other stuff grabs better anyway,when laid on the bench,and doesn't hold trash to scar the wood.

[David Weaver]

George, you're framing this stones thing the wrong way. If you just said you screwed your stones to the bench, took a couple pictures of them and said you found it in an old text, maybe several hundred people would do it and gush about how well they work when screwed to the top of a bench :)

[Paul Saffold]

If the U.S. Government said it, well how can anyone doubt it? End of discussion. Might as well lock this thread and move on to other ineffectual, eh I mean intellectual diversions.

[george wilson]

The study was complete with the results of lab testing,though I cannot disagree with your doubt about the government! it does seem counter intuitive that a smooth wood surface would make a stronger joint than a toothed one,but many things are counter intuitive.

Otherwise,I suppose you'll just have to have faith in an unidentified woodworker who wrote an article back in the 20's. I seem to have read a few recent articles in woodworking magazines that were full of misinformation. Nothing new under the Sun about that,either.

[Tom Vanzant]

Chris F.
I have seen the same workbench with wagon vise project covered in the same WW magazine over the years. The first had a laminated HW top and square steel dogs. The second used a built-up plywood top and 3/4" brass dogs. The third had a built-up MDF top and wooden dowels + square cap dogs. I cancelled my subscription before they published another version.

[David Weaver]

The fallacy of glue surfaces needing to be scuffed probably has to do with the idea that we always think things work as we see and feel them. The bonding is going on at a very local level, and we assume that there needs to be some "tooth" for it to grab, when in fact it's probably grabbing the tooth on a planed smooth surface. The tooth is still there, it's just not evident enough for us to see it.

I have been planing all of my joints flush, near invisible with hand planes for years so that I can put them together without having to clamp the whizz out of them and i haven't yet had one fail.

It's sort of like the OWT of a knife needing to have a toothed edge to cut meat well, that still goes around "don't polish the edge, or it won't have the tooth to cut meat". But when you look at a fish cleaning operation or butchers, they always have very sharp knives or in the case of a lot of butchers, maintenance with a polished steel.

[John Coloccia]

re: toothing wood for glue
I think the right answer is that is depends on the glue and what you're gluing. As far as I know, regular wood glue (Titebond, for example) and hide glue do better with smooth surfaces. Epoxy, and I'd guess glues like urea formaldehyde, have very low cohesion and depend on a rough surface and mechanical bonding. Hide glue has very high adhesion...so high that if you put it on a piece of glass and let it dry, it can crack the glass as it shrinks.

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.

[Zach Callum]

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.[/QUOTE]


That does make sense.

[Brett Robson]

I don't see what all the flap is about. While I wouldn't take a toothing plane to my new bench, as probably most of us here wouldn't, I don't see it as a problem or an ill-conceived idea for those with a well worn bench or someone who is interested in working with period techniques. As Patrick E. explained in his video, the idea is the old French way of treating the benchtop. If Mr. Roubo and the like used it, it probably worked out all right.

If you try it and it works for you given what you build, go for it. If not, then don't. No one's opinion here or in the the myriad blogs and magazines speaks the gospel truth in woodworking. Everything is subjective and there's no one correct way to do most anything.

[george wilson]

Maybe it's just the latest in Tom Fool Idjit things to write another article about.:)

Besides,it's the LAZY MAN'S way to dress up your bench top. A real craftsman would CHECKER the bench top like fine checkering on a rifle stock.

[Mel Fulks]

I've always thought that for hot glue hammer veneering ,which is kind of a thing apart from anything else,that the toothing was a proven benefit. But I have no veneer experience with hot glue beyond making repairs.

[george wilson]

I toothed this veneered harpsichord that I made in 1970. Still going strong.

I was 29 at the time,a guitar maker,and no one in Colonial Williamsburg had done any veneering,so I was strictly on my own. It was a new and difficult learning experience for me. Fortunately,I had some of the old thickness veneer that I'd had since the 60's to use,not this paper we now have.

This was a copy of a Kirkman harpsichord that still sits in the ballroom of the Governor's Palace in Williamsburg.

The copy did daily concerts for decades. It is still in use.

Sorry for the poor picture. It was scanned from a 400 speed slide(taken in poor lighting) by an apprentice of mine who thought he was a whiz photographer.

[Joe Leigh]

From toothing a pine bench to veneering, of all things, a harpsichord.....jeeeze....

[george wilson]

Mel asked about veneering. It's the only picture I have of something I veneered.

[Mel Fulks]

Yep ,no hijacking ,just an unusually successful 'upgrade'.

[Gabe Shackle]

Another otherwise constructive thread steamrolled by the anti-schwarz crowd. Well done, fellas.

[Zach Callum]

I don't see what all the flap is about. While I wouldn't take a toothing plane to my new bench, as probably most of us here wouldn't, I don't see it as a problem or an ill-conceived idea for those with a well worn bench or someone who is interested in working with period techniques. As Patrick E. explained in his video, the idea is the old French way of treating the benchtop. If Mr. Roubo and the like used it, it probably worked out all right.

If you try it and it works for you given what you build, go for it. If not, then don't. No one's opinion here or in the the myriad blogs and magazines speaks the gospel truth in woodworking. Everything is subjective and there's no one correct way to do most anything.

Well said Brett. Nice avatar by the way.

[Jack Curtis]

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me, too, and would take my bench a step beyond. I've never put finish on a bench, and whatever piece I'm working on stays in place, doesn't skate across the bench. I plan to apply toothing plane to it very soon.


That does make sense.[/QUOTE]

[daniel lane]

Another recent strange post refers to "screwing" the anarchist's toolchest, wherein he waxes profound about building a toolchest in the pattern he proselytes, but instead of solid wood and 136 through dovetails, he chooses to make it entirely from plywood butt-joined with drywall screws. I suddenly became dizzy and had flashbacks of DIY projects seen during the JFK years in the shiny, full-color pages of Popular Mechanics Magazine.

Let me know if I am misreading this, but in my copy of the Anarchist's Tool Chest by the same Venerable Schwarz, he expressed his opinion of plywood in very definitive terms:
"I don’t know about you, but I’ve developed a hate-hate relationship with sheet goods. . . . [P]lywood has become so awful – warped, wet, full of voids – during the last decade that it is hardly worth the trouble. . . . In 2008, I . . . decided I wasn’t going to ever work with plywood again."


Generally, I think it's fair to hold people to their convictions, but I believe there is a difference between Chris swearing to never use plywood again (presumably for personal projects) and Chris using plywood for a video shoot for a paid job. It's fairly clear from his blog entry that some people can't be forced to follow his convictions, for whatever reasons, so he's offering this alternative to those folks - as a paid gig.

I'm sure I'll be forced to wear a scarlet "S" for speaking in the man's favor, but come on, guys - let's argue the topic, and not disparage the source.


daniel

P.S. Stanley, my reply quoted you solely to discuss the plywood question - in no way am I singling you out for the rest of my thread response, so please take no umbrage.

[bob blakeborough]

I like Chris. He is like an earnest woodworking buddy who is willing to share what he has figured out recently. His explorations are usually empirical. He is sincerely trying to impart his findings. Now, since its a journey over time, he may later learn things that contradict what he thought he knew last year or whatever. But this is a fact of life. Even the most experienced and expert among us are always learning new things. No woodworker is hatched knowing the best answer to everything for all time.

I think Chris is reasonably humble. Like any personality, his fan base has awarded him a mantle; he doesn't seem to actively be trying to claim it. Many folks seem to reflexively try to pull down people who others admire. Oh well.^^^This^^^

[Stanley Covington]

Yes you understand. Just a weak moment.

I have some pics on my photobucket site.

254690

254691

Very nice indeed. If I had a plane like that, I would want an excuse to tooth something big too!

I love the eye!

[george wilson]

So,Gabe,if we don't ascribe to everything that comes out of Chris's mouth we are "steam rolling"? It seems strange,but true,that if a guy writes an article about everything he makes,he somehow gains guru status!!

[Gabe Shackle]

I have no idea how you jumped to that conclusion. When I said steam rolling I was referring to the fact that you and several other people who clearly have some kind of personal issue with Chris Schwarz will immediately turn any thread that has any reference to him in it into a personal tirade against him. It's petty and below people who are clearly quality craftsmen. The way this particular thread should have played out, had you no personal bias against Chris Schwarz would be:

"Hey, I read this article about toothing your bench to increase it's grippiness. What are your guys' thoughts on it?"

"Well, I've never seen anyone do it before so I can't say for sure if there's anything to it. A smooth surface has always worked well for myself that those I've worked with."

Instead it's:

"Hey, I read this article from Chris Schwarz about toothing your bench to increase it's grippiness. What are your guys' thoughts on it?"

"Well, he's a scribbler who only likes attention and is just trying to make money for himself. Anything he writes, his lemmings immediately take as gospel. I suspect he simply writes about anything he reads in a book and claims that he came up with it. Real woodworkers would never do anything he says."

The giveaway is the fact, as was pointed out, that he even clearly stated right in the beginning of his post that the idea of toothing his bench top was something he initially was skeptical about but tried after listening to advice from W. Patrick Edwards. Yet you guys immediately went after Chris as though he was saying that it's the only thing to do and that he was the originator of the idea. The exact same thing happened with the Tommy Mac thread debacle a couple months ago. I think everyone here understands you and a few others clearly don't like him for reasons beyond just disagreeing with what he writes but please try to keep that stuff out of legitimate discussions. If you disagree with something, say why, don't just resort to ad hominems.

[Mark Dorman]

I toothed a saw once; but I don't think I'll be toothing my bench. Would you use a skewed toothing blade so you could get positive rake angle and then go rip instead of cross cut?


Okay I'm kidding but it just sounds ridiculous to tooth your bench. The one thing the Schwarz said I buy into is; " disobey me". I read a lot of his stuff (the free stuff) then disobey it. It provokes thought and that's a good thing. Don't forget to think for yourself.

[george wilson]

Perhaps he has done some steam rolling you are not aware of,Gabe. But,I don't think I have been the major steam roller here,and do not want to get back into stuff. No,I really have no desire to deface my nice beech workbench which I made from beechwood I had custom cut and waited years to dry. I do not consider it good workmanship,and there are better ways to get a grip on work. I did not say lemmings.

[Gabe Shackle]

The LEMMINGS!! great!!!


And with that, I'm done with this thread. Hopefully these don't become the norm and ruin an otherwise amazingly open and unbiased forum.

[george wilson]

I clearly stated my reasons for not wanting to tooth my bench in post #27,and mentioned that this WAS NOT about personalities. Post 48 was a joke. I did think "lemmings" was a funny word to mention.

[Mel Fulks]

I'll never forget the great projects those magazines had...MAKE A LETTER OPENER FROM AN OLD TOOTHBRUSH! Did that with my current toothbrush and my parents just didn't understand. Still didn't get much mail.

[Jack Curtis]

I count on Chris to not lie intentionally, and he has not done that so far as I know for a lot of years now. Have I built the tool chest? No. Do I follow his advice slavishly? No. Do I buy every book from Lost Art Press? No. But I always gain from reading his blog and articles and certainly appreciate the PopWW move into hand tools, led by him, so far as I know.

[Chris Fournier]

And with that, I'm done with this thread. Hopefully these don't become the norm and ruin an otherwise amazingly open and unbiased forum.


I don't understand your position at all Gabe. First, unbiased makes no sense to me. Would you want to read the New England Unbiased Journal of Medicine?

How can any of us have anything personal against Chris Schwartz, we in most cases have never met him. We have commented on his suggestion that we tooth our benches for more grip. We have made many good points as to why this is silly or at least suspect. When you write with the intention of being read as a professional journalist you should be held to a pretty high standard I would think.

When I wrote presentations for business the content was scrutinized and criticized. It was understood that my position would be challenged. When you write something you have to be accountable for it and sometimes you have a battle, especially if you don't have it all right.

My question to you and the others who are so pro Schwartz in this thread is will you be toothing your benches? I am not jesting or making light, I'm seriously curious as to who will actually support their words with action and really do this?

[Stanley Covington]

Maybe it's just the latest in Tom Fool Idjit things to write another article about.:)

Besides, it's the LAZY MAN'S way to dress up your bench top. A real craftsman would CHECKER the bench top like fine checkering on a rifle stock.

I doff my cap in admiration and wonderment! :D

[Alice Frampton]

Well goodness, you chaps do get busy while a gal is getting her beauty sleep. Arguably you're time might have been better spent asleep too, however...


But,Alice,a study done by the U.S. government back in the 80's...

Oh, George, you went and brought in the government. How could you? And the 80s. It just gets worse and worse.


Know anything about the qualifications of the 1927 author? The English might have some different ways of doing things.

Not a thing, but I have complete confidence that opinions will be unerringly formed plus or minus any data at all, so I won't worry about it. And he might be Scottish. Or Welsh. Could be a very regional habit indeed, confined to a 50 square mile area of Northumberland, but only on alternate Tuesdays. I have no particular support or antipathy towards the advice, just merely providing information.

Okay, yes, I admit I am mildly amused that there are three sources who've presumably tried it and seem to like it, while half a dozen folks who haven't tried it are absolutely adamant that it's no good. So far I'm straining to hear anyone who's tried it and said it's no good. I'm slightly less amused that a forum born out of the good manners of the old Badger Pond allows quite such personal attacks on another woodworker, but alas, internet fora are not what they were. You have the floor, gentlemen; I am done.

Cheers, Alf

[Charlie Stanford]

Well goodness, you chaps do get busy while a gal is getting her beauty sleep. Arguably you're time might have been better spent asleep too, however...



Oh, George, you went and brought in the government. How could you? And the 80s. It just gets worse and worse.



Not a thing, but I have complete confidence that opinions will be unerringly formed plus or minus any data at all, so I won't worry about it. And he might be Scottish. Or Welsh. Could be a very regional habit indeed, confined to a 50 square mile area of Northumberland, but only on alternate Tuesdays. I have no particular support or antipathy towards the advice, just merely providing information.

Okay, yes, I admit I am mildly amused that there are three sources who've presumably tried it and seem to like it, while half a dozen folks who haven't tried it are absolutely adamant that it's no good. So far I'm straining to hear anyone who's tried it and said it's no good. I'm slightly less amused that a forum born out of the good manners of the old Badger Pond allows quite such personal attacks on another woodworker, but alas, internet fora are not what they were. You have the floor, gentlemen; I am done.

Cheers, Alf

Any operation on a bench in need of gripping will need something more than a toothed surface to do the job. Battens, stays, dogs, holdfasts, hand screws, clamps, planing stops come immediately to mind. If these implements are used correctly by a reasonably competent workman no additional assist is needed from an abraded surface or anything else for that matter. History has proved it.

[Charlie Stanford]

Mel:

I love mad scientists: they always have such cute hair.

I despise Snake Oil Salesmen for the untruths they peddle. I think that most scribblers for magazines (especially gun and automotive magazines) are selling snake oil, at least some of the time. And if that snake oil dries up, they might have to actually do something useful for a living. Fear and trembling ensues. So more snake oil will be produced, dammit.

This may have been said by Mark Twain: "It took me fifteen years to discover that I had no talent for writing, but I couldn’t give it up because by that time I was too famous."

I enjoy Christopher Schwarz's blogs online and his articles in Popular Woodworking Magazine. I have even bought one of his books. I admire his writing style, and am convinced he is sincere and does his best to write responsibly. But, right or wrong, a scribbler makes of his words a target, and cannot complain too loudly when someone tosses an occasional stone.

Stan

I think the adoration of Chris Scharz borders on the Stockholm Syndrome for some people. He is the Alpha and the Omega in their woodworking world.

[Charlie Stanford]

Do you mean I should not tooth my bench?

What sort of woodworking problem are you trying to solve for which you think toothing your bench might be a potential solution?

[Charlie Stanford]

re: Edwards
It seems like what Edwards is doing is using a toothed blade to quickly get rid of old glue and junk from his production workbench, and he uses a toothing plane out of convenience...it gets off the junk and it doesn't leave a smooth surface. The marks are quite shallow. That seems reasonable pretty reasonable.


If he's toothing in order to clean encrusted hide glue and other detritus from what amounts to an assembly table then that's another kettle of fish. Did Schwarz miss this nuance?

What I've had pictured in my mind is somebody taking a toothing plane to their beautiful Frid/Klausz work of art European workbench. That would be positively mad.

[John Coloccia]

If he's toothing in order to clean encrusted hide glue and other detritus from what amounts to an assembly table then that's another kettle of fish. Did Schwarz miss this nuance?

What I've had pictured in my mind is somebody taking a toothing plane to their beautiful Frid/Klausz work of art European workbench. That would be positively mad.

That's actually my quote, Charlie...I think Zach must have tried to quote me and something accidentally got dropped. I'm not sure if that's how Zach feels at all. I'm personally not a pretty workbench kind of guy. Personally, I think Frank Klausz is a little nutty for having such a pretty bench, but I'm sure he'd think I'm a slob for having a messy bench. But yes, Chris sort of left that part out, and that's too bad because it's the part that makes it all seem very reasonable to do in a production workshop. If all you need is a bit more grip under holdfasts, there are so many other solutions that are so much simpler. I use my bench much like Edwards uses his. It's got all sorts of glue and mess on it. I'm getting ready to take it down to the local mill and have them put the top on their wide belt to resurface it. I may try a toothing it first as a quick and easy alternative.

[Jacob Reverb]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/bmwrider.gif http://northlandphoto.com/campfire/images/smiles/all_coholic.gifhttp://northlandphoto.com/campfire/images/smiles/psychoeyes.gif

[Charlie Stanford]

That's actually my quote, Charlie...I think Zach must have tried to quote me and something accidentally got dropped. I'm not sure if that's how Zach feels at all. I'm personally not a pretty workbench kind of guy. Personally, I think Frank Klausz is a little nutty for having such a pretty bench, but I'm sure he'd think I'm a slob for having a messy bench. But yes, Chris sort of left that part out, and that's too bad because it's the part that makes it all seem very reasonable to do in a production workshop. If all you need is a bit more grip under holdfasts, there are so many other solutions that are so much simpler. I use my bench much like Edwards uses his. It's got all sorts of glue and mess on it. I'm getting ready to take it down to the local mill and have them put the top on their wide belt to resurface it. I may try a toothing it first as a quick and easy alternative.

It is a huge difference, the difference between a bench used to process, to a reasonable degree of precision, components that will go to make an article of furniture vs. a bench (really an assembly table) used to glue and assemble said components. If a toothing plane is simply being used as a glorified scrub brush to clean the latter than that is really not even worthy of mention - certainly not worthy of an article, even a short article, in a woodworking magazine. The same thing could be accomplished with 60 grit and often is, I'm sure.

In other words, who cares how you clean scum off your assembly bench?

[David Weaver]

I like a messy bench, too. I never finish the top of mine and don't worry about a stray chisel strike. Should I ever replace it with something better, I'll do the same.

I've gotten a lot of glue, finish, metal dust, etc on it and I've never had to use more than a coarse card scraper and a chisel.

And as charlie says, with all of the other appropriate options to hold work down, this seems to be another blog post that solves a problem most of us don't have, save those who religiously wax their bench until there's a sheen. I couldn't tooth my bench and make problems (abrasives, etc) when toothing solves problems I don't have.

What do you do when you're finish planing something on both sides? With no tooth, it's pretty easy to quickly brush away offending stuff that might ding the face of a board, I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would make it easier for their bench to hold onto scuzz.

George's comment that he's never seen anyone do it is quite enough. Who here has been exposed to more competent craftsmen working traditionally than George?

[Sean Hughto]

You have to meet someone to have something against them? That's nonsense.

The comments have not been limited to the substance of his proposition. They have quite clearly drifted into ad hominem attacks and personal slights.

One can be pro-Schwarz and not pro-benchtop toothing. I see benchtop toothing as a solution in search of a problem. I have no issues with work sliding around my maple benchtop coated with BLO. That said, I have no problem with Chris endorsing the practice. Whatever works for him.

[Joe Leigh]

George's comment that he's never seen anyone do it is quite enough.


Are you suggesting that once George makes his opinion known that no further discussion need take place?
That his observation alone should be "quite enough?" Really?

Well, that would save a lot of bandwidth....

[george wilson]

Alice,it is perhaps a good idea to be suspicious of government. Indeed,if you live in England. When I was there,I could not wait to get back to the USA. 2" cockroaches in my refrigerator,impossible to drive anywhere at all(better take the train if you expect to go somewhere). A great number of empty first class coaches being pulled by law,while the rest of us stand up for lack of space (WHY do the French run the British railway system???). Wiring and plumbing that doesn't work,even in a 5 star hotel (The Glouster Millennium) in the middle of London),with 9 hours for their staff to turn on my mini fridge,and they still couldn't do it. The World's WORST pizza!!!! A $45.00 Leatherman for 99 pounds= $160.00+. I could go on. Northern Italy was totally better( Florence was as far South as we went).

And,WHY are the trains allowed to stop in the station on ANY convenient track,while the big board says your train is on track 17? And NONE of the railway employees know which train is which? Yes,I would be very suspicious of government if I lived in the U.K.!!:)

[David Weaver]

Are you suggesting that once George makes his opinion known that no further discussion need take place?
That his observation alone should be "quite enough?" Really?

Well, that would save a lot of bandwidth....

I would frame it more as acquisition of accurate and useful information, not to squelch discussion. In a bloggers vs. reality, yes, George wins. In knowledge, application of the knowledge, design, accomplishments, you name it.

You can discuss it as long as you want, though, there's no condition that you can't discuss something that's even absolutely wrong. Just don't expect the odds to be in your favor if you have chosen "Blog Team" vs. people who practice craft for a living.

As a practical matter, I do usually ask George a question offline if I have something where I feel like the right answer is critical. Even if George called me a ___ and told me I was a hack every time I called him with a question, I'd still ask him. I'm concerned about getting the right answer and not trying to keep in good standing with Digital Social Club.

[Charlie Stanford]

I like a messy bench, too. I never finish the top of mine and don't worry about a stray chisel strike. Should I ever replace it with something better, I'll do the same.

I've gotten a lot of glue, finish, metal dust, etc on it and I've never had to use more than a coarse card scraper and a chisel.

And as charlie says, with all of the other appropriate options to hold work down, this seems to be another blog post that solves a problem most of us don't have, save those who religiously wax their bench until there's a sheen. I couldn't tooth my bench and make problems (abrasives, etc) when toothing solves problems I don't have.

What do you do when you're finish planing something on both sides? With no tooth, it's pretty easy to quickly brush away offending stuff that might ding the face of a board, I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would make it easier for their bench to hold onto scuzz.

George's comment that he's never seen anyone do it is quite enough. Who here has been exposed to more competent craftsmen working traditionally than George?

I just re-read the Scwharz article and he clearly states he is toothing to improve grip. In the replies somebody asks a question about whether this caused problems with trapped particles, etc. and Schwarz' terse reply, verbatim, was "Roughness is better. Period. I've never had a problem with it."

"I've never had a problem with it" seems to imply the passage of a long amount of time (or should, at least). Wonder if that's true...

[george wilson]

Joe,I don't know Chris's age,but I doubt he's more than in in his early 40's. I was a paid professional master craftsman working with a group of other masters in Williamsburg for 39 years. When I came there,I had already worked for years,and my work was good enough to be selected to become a master. That harpsichord above was made at age 29. It means nothing to you,I suppose,what went into it.

I always made things. I did not spend half my time writing articles and editing. I studied books I could not have had access to without being in the museum. I went on behind the scenes visits to other museums. Spent several days at a time studying at the Smithsonian in their restoration department,where I could see original instruments taken apart. Worked in an elite group of other master craftsmen.(who do you know that can hand forge a rifle barrel from a flat bar,hand bore and rifle it? Possibly no one,because there are about 3 in the country who can do it. One of them worked for me).

Yes,I have been around.

I really do not want this discussion to degenerate into a fight. When,in post #27,I stated several reasons why I would not tooth my bench,I clearly said this was not about personalities.

[Joe Leigh]

Not many here would question your expertise George, least of all me. Your skill level far eclipses my own. My issue concerns the belief that simply because someone has a blog that somehow their opinion caries less weight than your own or that of another "master".

I subscribe to the blogs of several very skilled artisans whose opinions on tools and technique vary greatly.

The idea of "toothing" a benchtop is new to me. I was interested in hearing various opinions on the pros and cons of doing so not because I'm interested in doing it myself, but because reading about different woodworking tecniques appeals to me. It seems as though this discussion went south quickly after Mr. Schwarz's name was brought up.

[george wilson]

Repeat: I said this was not about personalities in my first post. Not responsible for other posts,but can't help being amused by "lemmings" and some other things said. I was judged and accepted as a master by a large group of museum craftsmen,curators and research scholars. I don't know if he was.

Maybe others would (rightly) poke fun at me if I suggested gluing sand paper all over a bench top? Sure would improve grip,but I thought that was what tail vises and hold fasts were for.

[Charlie Stanford]

Mr. Schwarz heard about it, did it, now he suggests that you to do it too, because "it works, period." Read the comments and his replies on the blog.

There actually has been more discussion about the technique in this thread than there was in Mr. Schwarz' own blog - both in the original blog entry and in his responses to comments.

Otherwise, I think you should sharpen with oil-stones. Because they work. Period.

[Charlie Stanford]

I would frame it more as acquisition of accurate and useful information, not to squelch discussion. In a bloggers vs. reality, yes, George wins. In knowledge, application of the knowledge, design, accomplishments, you name it.

You can discuss it as long as you want, though, there's no condition that you can't discuss something that's even absolutely wrong. Just don't expect the odds to be in your favor if you have chosen "Blog Team" vs. people who practice craft for a living.

As a practical matter, I do usually ask George a question offline if I have something where I feel like the right answer is critical. Even if George called me a ___ and told me I was a hack every time I called him with a question, I'd still ask him. I'm concerned about getting the right answer and not trying to keep in good standing with Digital Social Club.

I spewed coffee.... funny stuff!! You're on today.

[Mike Tekin]

This is getting a little silly. Chris Schwartz wrote about a recommendation and despite what anyone has said, it seems to be clearly personal attacks that are going on here. Why hasn't Patrick Edwards who this whole article was based on discussed?

I personally think the toothed bench looks like garbage but I'm not going to harp about it for nine pages...

I thought woodworking was a craft where there are many ways to achieve one objective/task

[george wilson]

Don't think I wouldn't be attacked for suggesting exactly the same thing. I get attacked by jealous people just for putting up pictures of decent work. On another forum, I am now being attacked viciously by a jerk who thinks ALL modern machinists should be CNC machinists,period. I put up some hand filed flintlock pistols as examples of where CNC leaves off. He's totally LOST it!! I can't repeat here the names he's calling me!!:) And all because I believe in preserving craftsmanship. I certainly don't distain CNC work. We'd not have our standard of living without it. I think there's room for everything. He doesn't. He has no art in him.

[Charlie Stanford]

I hear 'ya brother.