scm TF110 shaper spindle removal and installation

[David Scheckman]

Hi, I've got my new TF110 Nova shaper and rotary phase converter operational and working well. The shaper has an interchangeable spindle. I removed it per instructions, seemed kind of ornery but it came loose. I reinstalled it again per the manual ( pretty poor manual), now it won't come loose at all. There's a double threaded nut which attaches to both the loose spindle and the fixed main bearing part of the assembly . When you loosen the nut its appears designed to drive the loose spindle free, but it just seems to jam up against it. Any advice on installation or removal is appreciated. I don't have a second spindle yet but will be moving in that direction.
Thanks,
David

[David Kumm]

Does your spindle have an O ring above the spindle threads to allow the threaded collar to rest against? The T130 spindles do but the T1 just has threads so the collar just gets tight. You have to make sure the collar is threaded as high up on the spindle as it can go before attaching it to the quill. If not the collar can tighten before the taper has fully seated and that can cause all kinds of problems. I would gently tap the spindle with a rubber mallet to free it- gently being the key word here. The threads are very find so they can get bunged up essily. On my T130 the collar doesn't turn very far on the quill before it is set. Dave

[David Scheckman]

It has the o-ring. The manual says to thread until the collar hits the o-ring and then tighten 1/2 turn more, which is what I did. When I loosen the collar from the quill the collar has some play in the threads then if I continue to loosen more it gets tight, jams up against the spindle. I tapped gently on the top and side of the spindle in both the tight and the loosened position, nothing. It seemed like it was fully seated but I was worried that it might not be. It reads that its in the zero position on the height counter which gives me some confidence it is fully seated. I could try to press it out using a block under the bolt on the top of the spindle and then lowering the spindle while the block engages either the table or the fence/spindle cover.

[David Kumm]

David, when the collar jams against the spindle you need to loosen some more to pull the spindle up. Dave

[David Scheckman]

I leaned on it pretty hard. Hard enough that I was worried about stripping the threads. Also tapped on it when it was loosened hard up against the spindle. Nothing.

[Mel Fulks]

My apologies if I am repeating what has been said.But sometimes there is value in different wording. I am familiar only with the system having the O ring. When installing spindle the double threaded collar must be contacting ring enough to be gently restricted from inadvertently turning .Assembly is then screwed in by hand ,carefully avoiding letting collar turn without spindle. I routinely use compressed air to clean off all parts first and spray with lube.That avoids any false reading of what's happening with threads.After tightening by hand the wrench can be used to tighten without fear that it will be difficult to remove later. If this is not done right the spindle will be held only by threads rather than the taper...and can unwind when machine is used in clockwise rotation. Or the taper can be drivin so far into quill that the wrench will not remove it. I have seen both scenarios. The lack of info in the book is carefully crafted to protect mfg.from giving info you might mis interpret and be injured. BE CAREFUL ! Doesn't help YOU much,but it protects them.

[David Scheckman]

That's pretty much how I did it. What I noticed was that when I screwed in the assembly by hand the spindle stayed put in the nut, but when I did the last tighten with the wrench the spindle did not turn with the nut. I believe this would mean that the nut would loosen some on the spindle. I can loosen the nut from the quill but when I loosen more to release the spindle it just jams tight, the spindle will not release. Not sure how much I should lean on it.

[Mel Fulks]

Unfortunately when ours was stuck years ago we had to call in a machinist to get it out. I had to be on a job site at the time and don't know what he did to remove it. Just that he left much better instructions than what was in the manual. If the assembly went in correctly it should have enuf lift to come back. I don't think you are going to over torque anything in removing it.

[David Kumm]

Mel and David. I just went out and removed mine. It had about three different spots where it turned hard on the way out. Kind of a funky system but probably more solid than spindles with a threaded rod that screws into the quill. Could you put a block of wood on either side of the spindle under a bushing and the top nut and crank the spindle quill down will put enough pressure on it uniformly to pop it? Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Don't know ,but if you clean off any rust and burrs or dings ,and keep it sprayed you won't have have any more trouble. Soon as you notice any wear on o ring ,change it out.

[Brian Brightwell]

David, why don't you post some pictures.

[David Kumm]

Don't know ,but if you clean off any rust and burrs or dings ,and keep it sprayed you won't have have any more trouble. Soon as you notice any wear on o ring ,change it out.

Any preference as to what to spray it with? Dave

[Mel Fulks]

Oops! Just noticed change in Davids. I think I would spray it with some penetrating oil now and start over tomorrow.

[Mel Fulks]

I use Ballistol because it creeps well and never gums up . But tonight I would use what ever is handy and try again tomorrow.

[Mike Heidrick]

Use Kroil if you have some.

[David Scheckman]

I left it for the night and will try again this morning. The thing is this is a brand new machine. Everything bright, shiny and clean. Cleaned the spindle carefully before installing it. I can't help thinking there's something about how I screwed the nut to the o-ring that wasn't quite right. I'll see how it goes this morning.

[Erik Loza]

Is this a new mfr. machine (as in 2012 or so?) or NOS (new-Old Stock)? I believe the new Novas use a magnetic spindle lock. If that's the case, there is a switch to free the spindle. Other than that, the spindle should just spin right out. It's a very coarse thread, unlikely to cross-thread...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1tighteningspindle.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FormulaT1spindleout.jpg

Best of luck,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mel Fulks]

It sounds like the collar was installed too high on spindle ,allowing spindle to be driven in too far . Now there is not enuf thread to lift it.All you want is just enuf contact with o ring to assist you in keeping collar in place until assembly is tightened with wrench. I don't think the system works without being rust free and oiled. Mfgs. are reluctant for liability reasons to reccommend oil .Knife setting jigs for jointers and planers don't work well without 'floating ' the knives ,but that is never in the instructions.

[David Scheckman]

I bought it as a demo/display model, not sure of the year of manufacture but there's no magnetic spindle lock. It looks more or less like your photo (without the aigner fence, more's the pity) the seat area of the quill doesn't look quite the same, no rectangular black pieces protruding from the quill. I got it off by a combination of loosening until very tight then pressing out with a block of wood with a hole drilled in it held down with the spindle nut and spacers. Took several rounds of loosening and pressing to get it to free up. I then cleaned all parts really well especially the o-ring. Then reinstalled. I tightened the nut to the spindle a little more then the manual suggested, 3/4 turn after contact with the o-ring rather then 1/2 turn. I removed it and installed it, fully tightened down 3 or 4 times and had no problems so I'm calling it good for now. Its spinning and cutting great. Hopefully after use the spindle will release as well as it did for my test runs. I need to put the shaper to work tomorrow, can't fiddle any more now .
Thanks,
David

[Mel Fulks]

Glad it's ready to go. That is a particularly frustrating event. Sales guys might have demoed one time too many without oil on taper. Don't want to gets spots on the suit! Over turning the collar pushes the spindle in farther,I wouldn't do it.

[Erik Loza]

Good to hear, David. That's a great shaper, you will love it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jeff Duncan]

Glad to hear you got it out. I read a thread on another forum several months back about the same problem. You would think SCM would have maybe switched to a better system of retaining the spindle as it seems removal is a common problem?

Hopefully you'll be OK from here on out.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Well ,that system is not unique to them .The one we had was a Delta .Once we were given adequate instruction by the guy who fixed it we had no more problem. The directions that have been given in this thread could be put into the machine manuals and there would never be a problem. There is info in the old Delta shaper book on knife set up that is not in ANY of the newer ,much longer ,books. It's the lawyers.

[David Kumm]

The system is fussy but as strong as any out there that I know of. Those machines sling 50 lb or more cutters all day long. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Dave, don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the system is strong....although 50 lb cutters on a T-110:eek: I hope that's a typo? It's just that when you read threads by guys who you know are experienced operators about the difficulty with spindle removal, it makes you wonder if they could make it better/easier? For instance the system Martin used for years was pretty darned foolproof and doesn't seem any more complicated. I don't know if they had patents on it or anything that would have prevented other companies from using it or not? Mostly just thinking out loud I guess;)

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff, the T130 uses the same system and the 50 lb cutter thing is really meant for that machine. I've heard of even heavier cutters for window and door profiles. I didn't mean to imply the T110 had a quill that would handle those. We are in agreement that the SCMI system isn't ideal. I do think it is likely stronger than some spindle assemblies, mainly the ones with a threaded bolt through the spindle so that it is actually hollow. Dave

[Mel Fulks]

I was an experienced shaper operator for at least 25 years before I ever saw one with different changeable spindles. Was used to old one speed machines and tooling of appropriate diameter made in our own shop. In recent years with newer shapers I have changed spindles and speeds several times in one day to use cheap handy Chinese carbide cutters ,then change out for larger cutters sometimes hand ground.In the shop where we had the stuck spindle it was new to all of us and we did not know what we were doing. Once we had info and made sure any new hires were shown exactly how to change them there were no more problems.Human nature is such that all of us old timers think the system is flawed when we first see it but a beginner shown how to work it learns it ,accepts it ,says " thanks" and goes on. Isn't the system just a Morse taper? It's probably used on machines outside of woodworking,too.If anyone uses the procedure in this thread and subsequently has trouble ,please let us know.And much good might be done by someone posting "I tried it. It works" .

[Peter Quinn]

I can't help wishing a few pics were posted. Different machine, but I bought a used Paoloni t-850 last year. Tested it extensively at the sellers location. Nice older standard model. Morse taper interchangeable spindle I assume, but I've never been able to get it off the machine. I don't own another spindle, so its of little concern to me presently. But when I got the machine home I had a frightening experience. I wired it up, fired it up to test the spindle rotation, was running reverse rotation, ran well for about 10 seconds then started making a horrible racket. I stopped it, which happens relatively quick, breaking motor. The collar that holds on the spindle, with the spanner wrench grooves was loose, very loose, and bouncing around. But try as I may I could't pull the spindle. I wanted to pull it, clean it, lube it, reinstall. No dice. My minimax has a similar set up, the spindles come off so easy I figured they all do. Not sure how much gentle persuasion to apply, certainly don't want to wreck it. But I'd like to put a reversing switch on it with some confidence that it wont come flying off on me, and so far I don't have that confidence.

[Mel Fulks]

Obviously an install mistake. We have some machinist guy members ,hope you can get some good advice. Mel

[Jeff Duncan]

What have you tried so far? I've been told to use a piece of scrap wood with a notch cut out the same size as the diameter of the spindle. Slide the piece around the spindle with a spacer and the nut installed on top of the piece. Lower the spindle until the spacer bottoms out on the wood and gently tap the top of the spindle to try and break it loose. The tapers really do 'grab' over time. I have a smaller machine that uses a through bolt and a much, much smaller taper than the big machines, and I always need to loosen the bolt and tap gently on the bottom of it to free the taper.

BTW, when you say last year do you mean a couple months ago? If so I was eyeballing that same machine as it was a very reasonable price, no more room though:( Glad it found a good home;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

What have you tried so far? I've been told to use a piece of scrap wood with a notch cut out the same size as the diameter of the spindle. Slide the piece around the spindle with a spacer and the nut installed on top of the piece. Lower the spindle until the spacer bottoms out on the wood and gently tap the top of the spindle to try and break it loose. The tapers really do 'grab' over time. I have a smaller machine that uses a through bolt and a much, much smaller taper than the big machines, and I always need to loosen the bolt and tap gently on the bottom of it to free the taper.

BTW, when you say last year do you mean a couple months ago? If so I was eyeballing that same machine as it was a very reasonable price, no more room though:( Glad it found a good home;)

good luck,
JeffD

Last June it followed me home. I tried the board with a whole and tapping. Didn't want to tap too hard. It works great counter clockwise, doesn't even have a reversing switch, though there is a space for one on the control board and a graphic indicating each rotation. Just a basic model, maybe original owner didn't want to pay for that option? It probably had never spun backwards before. Or at least not lately. It is well loved Jeff, you're the one that pointed me to it!

[Jeff Duncan]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one....I'm thinking of a more recent offering within the last 2 months, or maybe even the last month?;) Good deals on industrial shapers have gotten somewhat more frequent lately and I'm starting to feel the pressure:o I don't know if you saw the Kolle tilting spindle shaper last month, but I may have left fingernail marks under my desk watching that go for short money:eek:

I think I'd have done the same as you, if it doesn't come after some gentle persuasion leave well enough alone. I've also heard of guys installing a large cutterhead on the spindle with just the nut, no spacers. Then sliding the head up the spindle as a sort of hammer to knock the spindle free. I'll send you a link to the SCM stuck spindle discussion I had referred to back channel, (don't think I can post it here?), and you can read up first hand.....and not blame me if it doesn't work;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff, never thought of that hammer idea. If I encounter another one stuck I will try it .With a bit of cork or rubber to avoid dings.