SOS on S4S -- I hate sanding!!

[Dale Thompson]

Is there an industry standard on S4S (Sanded Four Sides for newbies)? I would guess that it is about 150 grit. I have no interest in curling any more sandpaper over my sander than is absolutely necessary.

I know! Finishing is the MOST important part of a project! But then there are those of us who have never gotten that far. :o :D

Dale T.

[Joe Grout]

Dale
S4S is the acronym for Surfaced four sides, not sanded.
That means it is run through a double planer and is straight lined ripped ( possibly edge surfaced). So while I feel your pain you have two choices . First is to get a handplane or two and a card scraper, or well, sand. :D
Finishing is the biggest single effort in a project and the least understood.

Joe

[Jim Engel]

The scraper is the biggest bang for the buck
deal in all of woodworking.

There is a learning curve in setting them up
and getting the right hook, but you will never
look back.

Great for bare wood and between coats.

[Dale Thompson]

OK guys, so once again I have to bury my head in the mud for being stupid! :( :(

At my age, you will have to stand in line to destroy my ego and lower my self-esteem. ;)

Sooooo--to what grit would you estimate that "surfaced" means? Is 150 a good guess?

I've heard that scrapers are GREAT! On the other hand, I'm really not into them. The closest that I come is to grind my chisels on a "soft" wheel and leave the burr. :o

Thanks,

Dale T. :)

[Gary Hern]

Hi Dale,

It is going to depend on the wood that you buy. I'd have to say that in general, the average starting point is going to be 80g or 100g. You'll have some ripple in most and maybe even a little tearout. Some of the better more even grained wood will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 or 180.

One of the big things to remember in sanding is to do it in steps and don't jump grits. It will take you 10 times as long to get to the appropriate surface if you start with 150 rather than 80. Using good sand paper will reduce the odd deep scratches that comes with the cheaper stuff that has a bigger variance in grit diameters.

Your question is very hard to answer the way it was stated, I hope I was in line with what you were looking for in an comeback.

Gary
BTW, did you get your pictures back from the EOP?

[Dale Thompson]

Gary,
Thanks for the information. I'm not sure what mean by the pictures from EOP. Is that meant for someone else? Nobody would want a picture of me. :)

Dale T.

[Bruce Page]

Dale,
One thing that hasn’t been touched on in this thread is planning your own wood. Most of the lunchbox planners will give you a quality finish that requires very little sanding.

[Dave Arbuckle]

You're looking in the wrong direction, oddly enough. Don't think you will save time by starting with a finer grit sandpaper, because just the opposite is true. One way or other you need to remove a particular amount of material (that being dependent on what equipment did the surfacing, and how many decades have passed since the blades were sharpened). Using a too-fine grit sandpaper for the initial removal means the job will take forever, and you'll wear out tons of sandpaper.

As I mentioned, the starting grit will vary. With a reasonably smooth surface, like off my reasonably well-maintained planer, and a random orbital sander, I recommend starting at 80 grit. With a coarser finish like, well, every commercial planer I've seen, I'd recommend coarser. With a more gentle sander, like a finishing sander, same thing.

If you get to the point of getting into scrapers, you will be amazed. I can remove stock faster with a scraper than with an 80 grit beltsander (from a smallish surface at least).

Dave

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

Dave,

We all agree - sanding is no fun. I got stationary sanding equipment, OSC spindle, OSC belt that hooks up to D.C. It made the chore in many cases much faster, and in some cases so quick it seems the equip. was a waste of money. That is until I start up with the agony of sanding with little hand held gizmos. I really didn't want to spend the $$ on sanding equip. but in the end it was worth it. I tried DC on the small hand sander. But, it gets in the way to much and wasn't practical. Every thing I can sand on the stationary equipment I go to 120. This improves the surface of even the nicest S4S that's made it's way into my shop. As noted, most the time the S is for surfaced not sanded. Sometimes it could possibly be sanded, but this just shortens the early sanding schedule, but doesn't remove it.

For what it's worth on hand held, the PC orbiting sander does the job quicker then many lower priced sanders. The cheap B&D mouse does a equal job to most higher priced detail machines. A lot of the times, scraping is great way to go. You just have to commit to scraping the entire project when using dye/stain as this takes color differently then a sanded surface. Almost always, I'll scrape for speed of removal when I need a lot of control or to remove glue, and then finish up with sanding.

The stationary equipment is the fastest, cleanest, and least flexible method by far.

[John Schreiber]

I suspect that everyone else knows this, but I've been sanding for years and I only just figured this out.

Your coarsest grit of sanding has one purpose, that is to finalize the shape of the object. Usually, that's remove machining marks, rounding over any corners you want rounded over, sometimes actually changing the shape of the item.

The only purpose of subsequent sanding with finer grits is to remove the scratches left by the previous sand paper.

I guess this is obvious, but now that I've figured out the obvious, I've saved a lot of time going back and forth trying to get the wood to feel right.

[Dale Thompson]

Thanks again guys. Believe it or not, I am familiar with most of the points presented. However, both I and a number of newbies have hopefully profited from this thread.

I very much like my DeWalt RAS and finish sanders. The Delta oscillating spindle sander does a fine job where it applies. I also have the Delta combination belt/disc sander. Just lately, I have found some new uses for this unit. I've had it for a number of years.

The grit thing is a given. Just step the grit up enough to remove the scratches left by the prior grit.

I guess that my post was just due to a bit of frustration with my recent projects. I agreed to do some "flatwork" projects for some friends and relatives (no charge, as usual). My shop is not big enough for a drum sander so I have had to go through the hand routine on some glueups. :mad: :mad:

I guess that I have gotten spoiled on the lathe lately. There, sanding is just a matter of reversing the lathe to direct the sawdust into the collector, spending a few seconds with each grit and then shutting off the lathe for a few final lateral strokes with the finest grit. :) :)

Incidentally, I have the Ryobi Thickness Planer. It does a great job. I've been trying to justify an upgrade but it's been really hard. :(

Hey, the bottom line is that I just threw out a "flyer" to see if I could get some tips or sympathy. I received both! Thanks!! :D

Dale T.

[Garrett Lambert]

Lots of useful replies, none answered your question about planing. I'd also like to make an essential point about sanding.

Trying to compare a planed or scraped finish to a sanded one is akin to trying to compare a square to a circle. They're both enclosed, flat, shapes, but that misses the essence of their being, i.e. there is no comparison.

Sanding a surface leaves marks from the random, wearing action of lots of tiny particles. At some point in the sanding process, the marks, although still there, become fine enough that the human eye does not remark them. However, the pores of the wood have become filled with sanding dust, and the ends of the wood fibres are left ground down.

A surface that has been planed or scraped with a properly honed knife or card has no scratches - note the phrase "properly sharpened" - the pores of the wood are clear, and the ends of the fibres have been cleanly sheared away.

A well-planed or scraped board will always stand out against its mating board that has been sanded, no matter how well, and will be seen as much more attractive and appealing to the eye.

As someone pointed out, finishing is the biggest part of a project, and the least understood.

Sandpaper is a perfect example of this truism. Taken together, sandpaper grits comprise a carefully designed system to get a product from machine marks to those "invisible" scratches. As with any system, it's essential to follow the progression of grits exactly. 100 grit paper is designed to remove the marks left by 80 grit paper, and so on up the line. Skip grits and you can sand forever, but you will never get the surface you strive for. Do it in progression, and each step should take a very little time, and you should be able to re-use the papers, unless, of course, you're sanding vast areas. If, for example, you find that you wear out a particular grit, that's an indication that you failed to complete an earlier grit properly.

I have a stack of disks for my ROS that start at 80 and end at 400. I go through them one by one and at a fast clip. With a light shining on the work from a relatively low angle, it's easy to see when the last disk's marks have been replaced by finer ones and that it's time to move to the next disk.

Yes, sanding can be boring, but usually it's frustration rather than boredom, because we think we can take shortcuts. For "fun", try sanding a small piece and doing it step-by-step using good quality papers. You will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly you proceed and how good the result is.

Cheers, Garrett

[Dale Thompson]

Garrett,
Thanks for the information.

I'll be dad-gummed if you don't make sanding and scraping seem like a real pleasure!

Unless I miss my guess, you are one of those salesman types who can sell freezers to Eskimos and furnaces to folks who live on the equator :D.

In any event, I wish that someone would invent a mini-sandblaster for small shops like mine. A better alternative would be to invent a "magic wand" which would turn a completely machined project into a sanded, stained and sealed finished product. :) :).

I'm working on that one--stay tuned for an update on the FOX News Network. :cool:

In the meantime, I'm going to get this blasted "flatwork" done and get back to the lathe. As I mentioned previously, give it a few seconds of each grit to whatever level I wish, spin on a coat of EEE-Ultrashine, "pop" a gloss finish with the "secret ingredient" that I stole from someone on one of these boards (If I remembered the person's name, I would certainly give them credit. The "brew" is 1/3 clear shellac, 1/3 denatured alcohol and 1/3 boiled linseed oil). This one WORKS!
Being illiterate, I've never been able to read the instructions properly on the "commercial" stuff like Myland's and Behlen's. I always get a "gummy" mess which causes me to start over and go back to the simple stuff that I can handle. :confused:

Garrett, I STILL don't like sanding and I don't have the patience or talent for scraping. :eek:

On the other hand, your post was much appreciated and very educational. :) ;)

Dale T. :o