Perfect Sawstop fence faces finally

[Mike Leung]

I have been upset about my fence faces not being flat since I bought my ICS. I first bought some corian but haven't gotten around to installing helicoil inserts and milling the material. A light bulb came on and check out what I have now. I am so happy to have a perfectely flat and true surface. The t tracks are going to be so useful. I will make sacrificial fences, tall fences, feather boards and more for it.

What do you guys think? What else can I attach to the t track that will be useful?

[Mike Nguyen]

Hi Mike,
Where do you get these fences and how did you attach them to the original fence. I have a Biesemyer fence and would like to do the same.

Thanks

Mike

[Peter Aeschliman]

Uhm, Mike (Leung)... that is really awesome. You can't tease us like that. More information please- where did you get those, are they perfectly flat, and how are they attached? I too am unhappy with the fence faces on my SS and would love to copy you!!!

One of the things I wish I could do is slide the fence back to eliminate the pinch zone (like you could on the old unifence and like you can on most euro machines).

I've also considered the Very Super Cool Tools fence as a replacement.

[Mike Nguyen]

I just looked around and these fences look like the multi track from Rockler.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Very nice.... How did you attach it to the fence?

[Mike Leung]

This is a DIY project guys. No one sells a fence face kit unfortunately.
I bought 48" extrusions from woodhaven
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002LU0584/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1360975039&sr=8-1&pi=SL75
I also bought 1/4-20 oval nuts from them.
Then I cut the extrusions to 44" and mitered the top corners.
The sawstop beam has slots for the original faces which I elongated 4 on each side to line up to the height of the ultratrack center track.
I used 1/4-20 3/8" cap heads and bolted the extrusions in place. They fit perfectely. It took about 2 hours to file the holes and cut the extrusions.

[Mike Leung]

I just looked around and these fences look like the multi track from Rockler.
I saw their version too but the longest they sell us 36". My original fence is 43"

[Mike Leung]

Uhm, Mike (Leung)... that is really awesome. You can't tease us like that. More information please- where did you get those, are they perfectly flat, and how are they attached? I too am unhappy with the fence faces on my SS and would love to copy you!!!

One of the things I wish I could do is slide the fence back to eliminate the pinch zone (like you could on the old unifence and like you can on most euro machines).

I've also considered the Very Super Cool Tools fence as a replacement.

You can totally slide a wooden fence anywhere you like using the t tracks. I looked at the supercool tools as well when I was designing this and I didn't want to waste my SS fence and didn't want to spend $300+. Aesthetically speaking, I think this looks more refined than a 8020 beam on my SS.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

NICE! I may have to do that too.

Be careful, the SS fence is wood for a reason........

[Mike Heidrick]

How did you ensure they stayed flat when tightening them down?

[glenn bradley]

How did you ensure they stayed flat when tightening them down?

I have used slabs of MDF similarly and simply shim with masking tape. The tube on the fence I did this on was pretty decent and only required a little adjustment. Those extrusions look like they will be quite handy.

[Brian Brightwell]

Cool set-up, thanks for the Pics. Just a thought one would seldom need the track on the right side of the fence would they.

[Mike Leung]

I have this modeled in sketchup so I can visually show everyone how it attaches. I'm not sure if I will need the track on the right side but I don't want the garbage SS faces on my saw. If you want to just make it for just the left side, it'll be only $55.

[Jim O'Dell]

Great idea! I too may steal this, but for my Grizzly. I don't have a problem with the Biese fence I have on my contractor saw...just wish I had long rails so I could put it on the G0691. Jim.

[Alan Lightstone]

How did you tighten the bolts inside the fence with that configuration?

[Mike Heidrick]

Is it exactly 3/4" thick?

[jim gossage]

Awesome fix! I called Saw Stop last week to complain about the fence faces. The tech guy was very sympathetic and admitted that the quality of the face was not up to par with the rest of the saw. I hope that one day they will offer some type of upgrade.

I have several questions:
1. Exactly how flat/uniform are the extrusions? No reason to replace my current fence unless this is better.
2. How long did you have to elongate the holes?
3. Any tips on elongating the holes or did you just use a small round file?

[Wade Lippman]

Awesome fix! I called Saw Stop last week to complain about the fence faces. The tech guy was very sympathetic and admitted that the quality of the face was not up to par with the rest of the saw. I hope that one day they will offer some type of upgrade.

He just said "yeah, they're crap; live with it for $4,000"? How did you respond to that?.

I just measured mine; they seem to vary by about 0.006" from high to low. It also is square in the front, but 90.4* in the back. Obviously not perfect,but are they off by enough to matter?

[Mike Leung]

How did you tighten the bolts inside the fence with that configuration?
Sawstop fences have slots on the bottom to allow a allen key to get in at an angle.


Is it exactly 3/4" thick?
measures .7490


Awesome fix! I called Saw Stop last week to complain about the fence faces. The tech guy was very sympathetic and admitted that the quality of the face was not up to par with the rest of the saw. I hope that one day they will offer some type of upgrade.

I have several questions:
1. Exactly how flat/uniform are the extrusions? No reason to replace my current fence unless this is better.
2. How long did you have to elongate the holes?
3. Any tips on elongating the holes or did you just use a small round file?

1. I recorded this to show the flatness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tgF6D8hsSo&feature=youtu.be
2. about 3/8"
3. first i used a file to creep up the the correct length on the ends and then drilled and filed the rest. I used a round and also a flat file.

[Vince Shriver]

I'm thinking you can attach a tenoning jig as well as a stop block for crosscutting pieces with your miter gage. Way cool upgrade!

[jim gossage]

Now that's flat. Nice video!

[James White]

Does anyone know if this type of track in general will exhibit this kind of flatness? In other words can I just shop for the best deal and not have to worry about verifying the flatness? Do the manufacturers specify a certain tolerance for flat. Or is it just a matter of the nature of this product that the vast majority of it will likely be flat?

Does anyone know where the Super Cool Tools guy gets his track? From what I understand there is a group of people who share there ideas and sources.

James

[Brian Brightwell]

Now that's flat. Nice video!

Yes, it was a nice video but would be better with music. Just Kidding. I don't know how to do videos need to learn.

[Michael Handrinos]

I going to order mine tomorrow! If I need to make a dado I'll just attach some mdf with counter sunk screws and use the track to attach it to the fence.

[mreza Salav]

That looks like a great upgrade. I think the only grip I've had with my ICS SS was the laminated face (and I'm surprised they haven't done anything to address this issue that many seemed to have). I have thought about getting some of those white UHMW things but didn't know how to attach them to the fence without having a through hole and screws from the face of the fence.
This seems like an excellent (though more expensive) solution. The flatness of that is very impressive.

[Mark Carlson]

They get it from 80/20 inc, which can be bought on amazon or ebay.


Does anyone know if this type of track in general will exhibit this kind of flatness? In other words can I just shop for the best deal and not have to worry about verifying the flatness? Do the manufacturers specify a certain tolerance for flat. Or is it just a matter of the nature of this product that the vast majority of it will likely be flat?

Does anyone know where the Super Cool Tools guy gets his track? From what I understand there is a group of people who share there ideas and sources.

James

[James White]

They get it from 80/20 inc, which can be bought on amazon or ebay.

I had found them. It seemed like there outside corner radius was bigger. I guess not though.

Thank you,
James

[Mike Leung]

I'm thinking you can attach a tenoning jig as well as a stop block for crosscutting pieces with your miter gage. Way cool upgrade!
Good idea vince. I am designing a tenoning jig now. I started cutting the bearing glides for it today.

[John Petsche]

great idea, I like the VSC solid extrusion fence myself. But this is a good adaptation for the sawstop original fence. Thanks for the pics.

[glenn bradley]

The VSC is cool but, I have not been able to get confirmation as to whether their 80/20 is just stock extrusion or if it is milled flat, square and anodized like the Rockler and Woodhaven offering?

[Frank Martin]

I have a Minimax combo machine with a fence that is not flat. This would fix that problem far cheaper than getting a new fence. Thanks!

[johnny means]

I've looked at something like this, but the t- slots make running a beveled edge against the fence problematic. BTW, have you thought about a stop to prevent accidental fence to blade contact. I was using the fence from my slider to rip 8th"strips a few days ago and accidental bumped the fence into the blade. Needless to say the brake was a goner, though the blade was OK. On the upside, the fence was barely touched.

[Daniel Morgan]

What a fantastic idea!

You are the King for the Day!

Unlimited possibilities with that setup.

My .02 you could make a sliding sled that goes through the t-track and have yourself a "board straightener" if you get my meaning. Something too curved could be clamped to the sled just right to slice a straight side.

Again, super cool.

[Kevin Womer]

That's a great idea, thanks for sharing it with everyone!

[Andy Pratt]

For what it is worth i noticed my SS fence was bowed a little and it turned out I just needed to tighten the screws (that's what the long ball-head screwdriver came with it for) on the underneath of the fence. If you flip the fence upside down and hold it against a straight edge, tighten the screws wherever it is bowed out and it may fix your problem. If you lost the ball-head screwdriver you will need a long ball-head allen wrench (not sure on size but probably 1/8-1/4 inch range) to access the heads, it is a very close fit to get in there and you wouldn't get it without a ball-head since it is at a significant angle.

[Tim Janssen]

NICE! I may have to do that too.

Be careful, the SS fence is wood for a reason........

That's a good point!

Tim

[Leigh Betsch]

I have a Minimax combo machine with a fence that is not flat. This would fix that problem far cheaper than getting a new fence. Thanks!

Carefull, that video is exactly the problem with cabinet saws. The fence doesn't tail away from the blade. Your slider should tail away a bit, mine is set up at about .005". This results in the riving knife being able to push the offcut away from the blade to reduce the chance of a kickback. Since the fence is never moved to the left side of the blade on a slider it can be set up this way, where if a cabinet saw where to ever to be set up like this you would have a serious pinch when the fence is moved to the left side of the blade. Just an inherent difference between the two styles of saws.

[Frank Martin]

Carefull, that video is exactly the problem with cabinet saws. The fence doesn't tail away from the blade. Your slider should tail away a bit, mine is set up at about .005". This results in the riving knife being able to push the offcut away from the blade to reduce the chance of a kickback. Since the fence is never moved to the left side of the blade on a slider it can be set up this way, where if a cabinet saw where to ever to be set up like this you would have a serious pinch when the fence is moved to the left side of the blade. Just an inherent difference between the two styles of saws.

That is a good point and I hear what you are saying. In my case, the fence profile first has a bump of 0.005" and then tails away by about 0.005" with total variation of 0.010". Even if you tail away, I think the fence profile first needs to be flat. By the way, I am new to the sliding saw as you guessed and had a Unisaw before with Unifence. For years, I had it almost perfectly parallel to the blade with only about 0.002" tail away, and it never gave me any problems. I never had to make any cuts with fence on the left side of the blade though.

[Adam Petersen]

NICE! I may have to do that too.

Be careful, the SS fence is wood for a reason........

Okay, I gotta ask, why? It's not like you capture the blade in the original fence face for rabbets or whatever. I personally don't move the fence while cutting. Don't know why you would. Narrow cuts are done with a jig moving the fence toward the blade for each successive cut. What am I missing? Whose hit their fence into their blade?

[glenn bradley]

NICE! I may have to do that too.

Be careful, the SS fence is wood for a reason........


Okay, I gotta ask, why? It's not like you capture the blade in the original fence face for rabbets or whatever. I personally don't move the fence while cutting. Don't know why you would. Narrow cuts are done with a jig moving the fence toward the blade for each successive cut. What am I missing? Whose hit their fence into their blade?

I have seen quite a few saws with circular scars on the fence but, like you wonder why a person would ever do such a thing. Anyone following even the basic safety measures would never make adjustments while the blade is in motion but, people obviously do :D.

[Keith Hankins]

I'm thinking of replacing my SS fence (coming soon) with this one. I really like this one.

http://vsctools.com/shop/product-category/table-saw-fence/

[Anthony Whitesell]

Warning from my past and current experience. Aluminum will rub off on wood and leave black marks. I have aluminum t-track in my router table and get black stripes from it. My old craftsman router table was aluminum and the pieces were covered in black marks. My other craftsman contractor saw has an aluminum top and the boards came out with black stripes (never had that issue with my '50s Craftsman with the cast iron top). I can see the advantage to the slots in the t-track the OP used, but watch our for black marks. It may be beneficial to attach a thin piece of wood to the tracks using the slots when just using the fence for standard cutting.

[Frank Martin]

Warning from my past and current experience. Aluminum will rub off on wood and leave black marks. I have aluminum t-track in my router table and get black stripes from it. My old craftsman router table was aluminum and the pieces were covered in black marks. My other craftsman contractor saw has an aluminum top and the boards came out with black stripes (never had that issue with my '50s Craftsman with the cast iron top). I can see the advantage to the slots in the t-track the OP used, but watch our for black marks. It may be beneficial to attach a thin piece of wood to the tracks using the slots when just using the fence for standard cutting.

This is interesting as my Unisaw fence profile and the Minimax fence profile are both aluminum and I have not experienced this. Wonder why this would happen though? May be when aluminum is not anodized?

[Charles Coolidge]

Carefull, that video is exactly the problem with cabinet saws. The fence doesn't tail away from the blade. Your slider should tail away a bit, mine is set up at about .005". This results in the riving knife being able to push the offcut away from the blade to reduce the chance of a kickback. Since the fence is never moved to the left side of the blade on a slider it can be set up this way, where if a cabinet saw where to ever to be set up like this you would have a serious pinch when the fence is moved to the left side of the blade. Just an inherent difference between the two styles of saws.

I see no reason for this since the riving knife is narrower than the teeth of the blade by considerably more than .005 You don't want to pinch the wood between the fence and blade for sure but intentionally setting up .005 out meh.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Now that you mention it. The Grizzly tall resaw fence is aluminum and I haven't had the issue with it.

[Mike Leung]

The aluminum is anodized so it has not been marking my wood. I have been really happy using my saw after the upgrade.

[Frank Martin]

The aluminum is anodized so it has not been marking my wood. I have been really happy using my saw after the upgrade.

Now that I think of it all of my saw (both rip and cross cut /miter) fences and jointer fences are aluminum and never had an issue with any of them. I am guessing the complaints may be related to damaged or non-anodized surfaces.

I ordered my track profile and look forward to installing it on my combo machine. Thanks again for this excellent idea.

[Leigh Betsch]

I see no reason for this since the riving knife is narrower than the teeth of the blade by considerably more than .005 You don't want to pinch the wood between the fence and blade for sure but intentionally setting up .005 out meh.
Yeah you're right I missed a decimal. I should have said .05 actually .054 in the length of the fence.

[Bill Sutherland]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread to see how this has worked for you and any suggestions, new gadgets/ideas and revelations in the past year using this fence?

[Bill Sutherland]

Thought I'd resurrect this thread to see how this has worked for you and any suggestions, new gadgets/ideas and revelations in the past year using this fence?

[Ben Rivel]

Bumping an oldie here. Wondering if anyone out there is still doing this. Checked out Woodhaven's website for these extrusions (LINK (https://woodhaven.com/products/woodhaven-4400-ultra-track?variant=10882597572)) and they get quite a bit for the 48" runs now. Sounds like about $145 with two extrusions and two packs of oval nuts plus who knows how much for shipping. For what you can sell a SawStop T-Glide for these days Im wondering if its not better to just spend a bit more and go with the VSCT fence.

[Robert Hayward]

Not necessary to go with the entire VSCT fence. I did it with just the VSCT extrusion and a pack of their sliding T nuts. I used only two T nuts, one at each end as the VSCT extrusion is very stout and attaches at one end only on the VSCT fence. I shimmed the VSCT extrusion away from the face of my PM2000 fence tube just in case the tube had irregularities. My shims were fender washers sized for 1/4" bolts, maybe 1/16" thick. On the PM2000 fence tube there are large (2" sq ?) holes spaced along the bottom to access the fasteners for the factory fence face. I drilled the two new mounting bolt holes so I could access the VSCT T nut bolt head using the factory access holes.

I also replaced the fence rail tape measure. The approximate 1 1/2" thick extrusion made it so the cursor and cursor bracket would have to be almost under the fence tube to measure correctly. I called Powermatic to order one and they told me the cost was $80.00, or close to it! For a 30" stick on tape measure????? Really??? I picked up an almost exact replacement made by Starrett on Amazon for about $8.00 delivered the next day free with Prime. The difference is the color, new one is white and old one was yellow- I can live with it. Oh, also the Starrett one is metal and the Powermatic one is plastic.

Variance along the new fence face is now .00125 or so max and this is over one 12" ~ 14" span only. I had put three different faces on the fence tube over the few years I have owned the saw and each one drove me nuts trying to get it flat or at least close to flat. What a difference now. Should have done this when I first got the saw. The VSCT extrusion may look close to an 80/20 extrusion but believe me it is way more rigid and flatter.

[glenn bradley]

The benefit will vary with what you do. My Saw Stop fence makes it very easy to change back and forth. I ran the machined extrusions for a while. For me the benefits did not outweigh the problems (slots frequently being just where you don't want them). I use my tablesaw as a joinery machine among its other talents so I may run into this more than someone else. On the bright side, a variation on the shimming I did to assure the extrusions true-ness (is that a word?) was done for the stock face upon re-installation so now I can switch back and forth if I ever need a lot of t-slots on the fence face for anything ;-)

[Derek Cohen]

I discovered 8020 extrusion about a month or so ago, and ordered a few lengths. One is in the process of becoming a new router table fence. It offers the potential for a better-than-manufactured fence at a fraction of the price. So many possibilities!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Meyer]

I looked at the 80/20 extrusion catalog, and the selection and pricing is impressive; however, I couldn't find any info on the tolerances of the extrusions. I was interested to know how flat, say, a 48" extrusion is over its length.

They do have extrusions that are 1" x 3" with t-slots on one side and flat on one side, which would seem to be great for a saw fence.

[jim gossage]

I just checked a 6 foot length of 1x1 8020. Over 4 ft it was 0.006" off in one dimension but 1/16" off in the other dimension. In fairness, this has been sitting on a shelf for 3 years so I have no idea if it was better straight from the mfr.

[glenn bradley]

Let’s keep in mind that the VSCT extrusion is now machined on four sides. A non-milled extrusion is not the same thing.

[Ben Rivel]

Let’s keep in mind that the VSCT extrusion is now machined on four sides. A non-milled extrusion is not the same thing.
That may be the case, but I think there has always been the question of whether or not the 80/20 extrusions even need to be machined at <48" runs. That and doesn't 80/20 offer the option to machine flatten when you order from them?

[glenn bradley]

That may be the case, but I think there has always been the question of whether or not the 80/20 extrusions even need to be machined at <48" runs. That and doesn't 80/20 offer the option to machine flatten when you order from them?


This could be subjective I would guess. I think the VSCT solution is a bit pricey but, they seem to be delivering a quality product and I wish them the best. I've never had one in my hands so take this for what it is worth. When they were first starting out there was a buzz about the irregularity of the extrusion they were using. Milled faces were soon offered and I don't know if their own pattern (which differs from a lot of 80-20 stuff) came about at that time or not. They state the milling is inspected for flatness but, offer no specs. I believe 80-20 will do all sorts of customized things for customers. Whether an extrusion that is snapped straight is straight enough for a fence? I think there are a few folks here and elsewhere that have just run non-milled extrusions. I don't recall a lot of noise about dissatisfaction.

[Robert Hayward]

I went through a decision process before I ordered the VSCT extrusion. A 48" piece of 80/20 40 series that was very close in dimensions to the VSCT extrusion was going to cost about $75.00 shipped. The VSCT extrusion was about $120.00 shipped. I argued with myself about the extra money. Keep in mind that I had already been through three fence faces, the factory one and two homemade, I was not happy with the flatness. What if the piece of 80/20 I get is no better than the baltic birch / laminate faced fence face on the saw now? For $45.00 more I went with the VSCT, kind of like getting an insurance policy. For me it was money well spent. What is the saying that goes around SMC, cry once....?

[Ben Rivel]

I went through a decision process before I ordered the VSCT extrusion. A 48" piece of 80/20 40 series that was very close in dimensions to the VSCT extrusion was going to cost about $75.00 shipped. The VSCT extrusion was about $120.00 shipped. I argued with myself about the extra money. Keep in mind that I had already been through three fence faces, the factory one and two homemade, I was not happy with the flatness. What if the piece of 80/20 I get is no better than the baltic birch / laminate faced fence face on the saw now? For $45.00 more I went with the VSCT, kind of like getting an insurance policy. For me it was money well spent. What is the saying that goes around SMC, cry once....?
Did you inquire with 80/20 about milling the extrusion flat and get a cost quote for that service?

[Robert Hayward]

Did you inquire with 80/20 about milling the extrusion flat and get a cost quote for that service?

No, I did not. The VSCT extrusion is anodized after milling and I wanted anodizing on all sides. I did not go into any of that with 80/20.

[Frank Pratt]

No, I did not. The VSCT extrusion is anodized after milling and I wanted anodizing on all sides. I did not go into any of that with 80/20.

Good call on that. The anodizing will wear so much longer & slide much smoother than bare aluminum.