Newbie to Veneer: Hammer - vs- Cold Press/Contact

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, I have been woodworking for several years now, but I've never tried my hand at veneering. I have some projects in mind that I think veneer would be great for but I was wondering about the various methods. Originally I figured that I'd probably use some sort of contact or cold press adhesive and press them using heavy sheets of MDF & cauls. But, I just watched a DVR'd episode of Uncle Roy's with Steve Latta on Hammer Veneering and it looked very interesting. It also looked like a lot of fun. Not to mention that Steve made it look fairly easy. Now before you say it, No I'm not that much of a "newbie" that I honestly thing it IS that easy.

So here's my question. I have some very attractive figured veneer pieces that I've picked up (Yes, I know Steve said Hammer Veneering works best with thicker resawn material) that I would like to use for box tops, accents, and such. I also have some really nice exotic & figured woods that I can resaw myself that I may like to use as well. Hammer veneering does require some investment in tools (and we all hate buying new tools so much) such as a Hammer and a Glue Pot while the other kind doesn't require much unless I wanted to get a vacuum press setup but that investment doesn't bother me as long as I use the tools. What I really want to know are advantages and disadvantages of each method, as well as the learning curves involved. A would also appreciate and general advise you may have gained through experience.

[David Weaver]

The learning curve for one of the expensive vacuum press systems was essentially zero. A friend of mine bought one when I needed to veneer a 1/8th thick cherry veneer to a ply substrate a few years ago. (he didn't buy it for me, he bought it and I had a use for it).

Extremely expensive per use for him (he hasn't used it since), but it worked out well for me.

[Zach Dillinger]

You can make your own veneer hammer easily. I'll shoot a couple of pics of mine if you like. It's modeled on Stephen Shepherd's version, but with a boxwood bit.

You can hammer veneer with liquid hide glue. You don't need hot hide glue, although it is easier to hammer hot hide. So you can try it without having to invest in the full setup.

[Jim Belair]

heavy sheets of MDF & cauls

I've done a few flat veneering projects (up to about 15 X 40") using this home build press method (& PVA glue) and they turned out well. I've also done smaller curved stuff using the iron on PVA approach and it works too. I recommend Mike Burton's book, "Veneering - A Foundation Course". He covers most of the bases and shows how to make some basic veneering tools.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I perfer hammer veneering with hot hide glue to any other method. If however I was doing multiples or production work, I'd probably go vacuum. Hammer veneering does have a learning curve in getting used to getting the hot hide glue to the right consistency and in learning to deal with the stickiness and time constraints. One of the big advantages of hammering is that with open pored woods like walnut, mahogany, and their various burls or crotches the glue on the top surface acts as a grain filler. Once you have scraped off the true excess you can finish right over hide glue without any further preparatation. Hide glue will absorb dyes, stains, and finishes without the unsightly blotching and discoloration of PVAs. This is greatly oversimplified, but is the short form.

[george wilson]

DO NOT try to veneer with contact cement!!!! There was an article in Fine Woodworking magazine many years ago about how the veneer WILL come loose in big bumps. The museum hired this fraud piano maker years ago to make an 18th.C. piano. He veneered it with contact cement,and,sure enough,the veneer came loose in football sized(and shaped) lumps within 5 or 6 months. I had advised them against hiring this fellow,but an English accent went a long way in the museum.

Meanwhile,the harpsichord I made in 1971 is still going strong with its hide glued veneer still down snug everywhere.

There was an episode on Roy Underhill's show where he had a guest who demonstrated hammer veneering. You need to dig up that episode and view it several times. Perhaps someone here can direct you to that particular show.

[Jeff Duncan]

I agree with George, contact cement is great for laminate, NOT for veneer. I've never tried using the hammer technique but use a vac for veneer and it's a great setup if your going to do any quantities of it.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with George - never use contact cement with veneer. That said, I prefer vacuum veneering, and I suspect our ancestors would have preferred it if they had the option.

But hammer veneering has certain advantages.

Mike

[Chris Fournier]

As others have said CC is a no no with solid veneer. If you are using paper backed veneer CC is great.

You could use hide glue and a hammmer but PVA type II and a clothes iron is very effective and inexpensive to try. FWW and others have articles about this. For edge work or simply when I don't want to haul out the vacuum press I use the PVA iron techique and projects that are over 15 years old are going strong.

Practice on backing or cheap veneer. If the iron is too hot you can shrink the veneer so experiment.

Veneering opens up an entirely new woodworking field and I can't recomend it enough! Enjoy.

[Frank Drew]

That said, I prefer vacuum veneering, and I suspect our ancestors would have preferred it if they had the option.



The price of entry into hammer veneering is very low and with practice and experience the results can be very good, but I'm with Mike in liking vacuum veneering. It needn't be that expensive to set up, especially if you can find a good used vacuum pump and make your own bags out of sheet vinyl and vinyl glue; the tubing, platen, etc. can be scrap you have laying around. I did all that and was ready to go for less than $100 (I got real lucky on a pump -- laboratory grade, used but in excellent shape, for $75). The actual pressing is simplicity itself and the results really can't be beat.

This is not a strictly hand method, though, so might not qualify for this forum.

[Stew Hagerty]

You can make your own veneer hammer easily. I'll shoot a couple of pics of mine if you like. It's modeled on Stephen Shepherd's version, but with a boxwood bit.


Yes, please post photos of your Veneer Hammer. I've seen photos of a few homemade ones and thought about making one, but I figured I would probably buy the one from Lee Valley.

254469



You can hammer veneer with liquid hide glue. You don't need hot hide glue, although it is easier to hammer hot hide. So you can try it without having to invest in the full setup.


Hmmm, I didn't know you could hammer veneer with liquid hide glue. I thought the reason hammer veneering works so well is because of the way HOT hide glue tacks up quickly, whereas LIQUID hide glue has a quite long open time. If it really does work, I'd love to know more about the process. It would definately be something I would be interested in trying.



DO NOT try to veneer with contact cement!!!!


George (and others), thank you for pointing this out. I should have been more specific when I said the words "contact adhesive". You see, I have also been looking into rolls of paper-backed veneer for some casework and it was my understanding that CC was acceptable for that purpose. I was looking into Better Bond Titan DX™ from VeneerSupplies.com. So is this ok for this type of application, or should I use something different.

254471



There was an episode on Roy Underhill's show where he had a guest who demonstrated hammer veneering. You need to dig up that episode and view it several times. Perhaps someone here can direct you to that particular show.


I'm pretty sure you are describing the episode I was referring to with Steve Latta. I actually have it DVR'd and have already watched it 3 or 4 times.

[Jim Belair]

I was looking into Better Bond Titan DX™ from VeneerSupplies.com. So is this ok for this type of application, or should I use something different.


No personal experience but when I went to look it up the first search result was this

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/adhesives.pl?read=711486

[Mel Fulks]

The life span of contact cement is short,like less than ten years.Ask the people who make it .Yeah, in spots in can last longer. It is a temporary solution making a permanent problem.

[Stew Hagerty]

I just wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions. I think that if and when I even have a large project or start doing a lot of veneering that I may opt for a vacuum system. However, right now for the small things I want to do, I think that I will give hammer veneering a shot.

I would still like to know more about using hammer veneering with the thinner store-bought veneers. I have some very nice figured maple book-matched sets that I picked up for next to nothing at a close-out sale. Of course, it is much thinner than resawn veneers. Any tips???

Also, Zach mentioned being able to use LIQUID hide glue for hammer veneering. Can anyone tell me more about this? I was figuring on buying a gluepot, but if I can use the liquid, I wouldn't mind giving that a try.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm pretty sure you are describing the episode I was referring to with Steve Latta. I actually have it DVR'd and have already watched it 3 or 4 times.


This episode also has hammer veneering. IIRC the guests from Colonial Williamsburg and are using tools George made in it.

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2800/2810.html

[george wilson]

To be safe,I'd go with hot hide glue. It can be cleaned off wood and will not affect the staining and finishing that comes later. When I veneered the big harpsichord,I used crotch figured mahogany in the panels. The glue thoroughly permeated clear through this veneer,as much of the wild grain was vertical to the thickness. Even so,I cleaned it off and varnished the harpsichord case with no trouble at all. This was in 1970,and the veneer has never come loose anywhere.

[thomas eaves]

Stew, since this is Neanderthal haven the way I see it you have two options to compare, hammering and screw / clamp pressing. Hammering only works with loose veneer and laying one piece at a time. If one were gluing a tape up design pattern with thin veneer, as the glue touched the tape it would loosen and the little pieces would swell and no longer fit together by the time the glue started to set. That is why the veneer needs to be thicker. Since you are talking about small lay ups a simple press would have less cost and there are more choices of glue to use. Tom

[george wilson]

If the glue can come through the veneer by ANY clamping method,only ever use hot hide glue. As I said above,it can be cleaned off,and does not affect staining and finishing. Try another glue at your peril.

[Sam Stephens]

If you're using paper-backed veneer, then a cold press veneer glue or PVA will work well. Cauls/platen/clamps are easy to engineer, particularly for flat work. Note that weight is not sufficient here; you'll need to apply even pressure across the surface of a platen w/ cauls. A vacuum press is certainly better, but not worth it imo if this is a one time gig.

As George said, if you're using a raw wood veneer, then hot hide glue is the only way to go.

[Zach Dillinger]

As George said, if you're using a raw wood veneer, then hot hide glue is the only way to go.

It simply isn't the only way to go. It works very well, perhaps better, to use hot hide. But liquid works also, using the same techniques. I thin the glue by keeping the bottle in hot water prior to use, and I only use a very small amount to lubricate the blade. Toothing the substrate is a requirement, as the veneer can shift around a bit if you aren't careful. That is the major advantage of hot hide. If you are doing a simple drawer front, not a complex pattern, liquid will work just fine. I veneered the drawer fronts with raw wood veneer on my spice chest using liquid.

[Stew Hagerty]

If you're using paper-backed veneer, then a cold press veneer glue or PVA will work well. Cauls/platen/clamps are easy to engineer, particularly for flat work. Note that weight is not sufficient here; you'll need to apply even pressure across the surface of a platen w/ cauls. A vacuum press is certainly better, but not worth it imo if this is a one time gig.

As George said, if you're using a raw wood veneer, then hot hide glue is the only way to go.

I saw this on Lee Valey's website:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,250,43298,43314,51167&p=51167

255551

For the occasional small project, or at least to try my hand at the process, do you think this would work? I can't imagine that Lee Valley would sell something that was junk.

[David Weaver]

It is a temporary solution making a permanent problem.

This is a great quote.

[george wilson]

The Lee Valley vac. press looks o.k.,but I ain't buying it unless they INCLUDE the form and the wood.:)

[Mike Henderson]

If the glue can come through the veneer by ANY clamping method,only ever use hot hide glue. As I said above,it can be cleaned off,and does not affect staining and finishing. Try another glue at your peril.
George gives good advice. However, there is another glue that I use that can be cleaned off with water and that's regular white glue (Elmer's GlueAll), not yellow carpenter's glue. It will wash off - with some work - even after it sets, and even better right after you take it out of press (before it's fully cured). I just take a wet rag and scrub hard. For difficult cases, I use a brass brush to get the glue out of the grain.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

As others have said CC is a no no with solid veneer. If you are using paper backed veneer CC is great.

You could use hide glue and a hammmer but PVA type II and a clothes iron is very effective and inexpensive to try. FWW and others have articles about this. For edge work or simply when I don't want to haul out the vacuum press I use the PVA iron techique and projects that are over 15 years old are going strong.

Practice on backing or cheap veneer. If the iron is too hot you can shrink the veneer so experiment.

Veneering opens up an entirely new woodworking field and I can't recomend it enough! Enjoy.

Many people say to let the PVA set on both pieces before ironing it on. My experience is to iron it on with the glue wet and let the iron dry out the glue. I'd had delaminations when I tried the dry PVA technique.

Mike

[Steve Voigt]

I saw this on Lee Valey's website:

For the occasional small project, or at least to try my hand at the process, do you think this would work? I can't imagine that Lee Valley would sell something that was junk.

I bet it would work. But I can't help feeling like on the one hand (hammer veneering), you have the chance to learn a venerable and versatile hand tool skill, spend almost nothing, and use tools that will fit into a tiny drawer when you're done. The LV will only work for small projects, will still cost you $70 or more after shipping, will take up 4 square feet of storage space when you're done, and looks like a disposable piece of…
And every other choice (real vacuum setup, cold press), will cost considerably more and take up even more space. To me, the choice seems clear.

-Steve

[thomas eaves]

If the glue can come through the veneer by ANY clamping method,only ever use hot hide glue. As I said above,it can be cleaned off,and does not affect staining and finishing. Try another glue at your peril.
Actually PPR glue is also stainable after it cures and it can be tinted to any color when it is mixed. As with hide glue, it makes a great grain filler. Lay down a heavy tinted glue line then press and sand. Since PPR glue develops a hard line like hide glue, it does not clog the sand paper like a PVA glue would. Tom

[David Paulsen]

Hi Stew and all... This is my first post, and as a guy from Denmark please excuse my english.

A couple of months ago I tried to hammer veneer for the first time. A friend of my girlfriend needed a corner table to sit and write at, in her small apartment. She wanted it situated atop a radiator, below a window. So I knew I had to veneer as solid wood would probably have cracked under such stress.

As you, I considered my options. I thought that working with pressure, cauls and such, was a bit too scary, as I wouldn't be able to see what happened during the process and so have no or little control. Vacuum bag was not in my price range and I'm a sucker for working old school (never use power tools). So I decided to make the jump into this exiting new skill.
I gathered equipment: First I needed a veneer hammer and so made a simple one with a piece of aluminum epoxied into a head with a handle. Simple stuff and cheap 255645
And then a glue pot which made me worry. In europe they are so expensive. But then I thought, hey, I just need something too heat my glue within a certain temperature. So I bought a cheap thermometer and a used a fondue pot and I was on a role. Worked like a charm.255646 I also used an old clothing iron I had lying around.

The process that worked for me are as follows: Would scratch the substrate (mdf) with an old saw (as I had no veneer plane). As my glue had soaked for an hour I would heat it and like making oatmeal, I would add water if too thick, and add more glue if to thin. Agree with people who say that it should be runny like syrup.
As the glue was heating I would joint my veneer on a "veneer shooting board" and heat up my clothing iron, so all was ready. When the glue was good I would take the pot to my bench and with a brush quickly spread it on the substrate. Take the first piece of veneer face down onto the glue and spread more glue on the back side of the veneer. Would then carefully flip it over, position it as wanted and then go over it with my iron (should be mentioned Its winter here and my basement shop was cold) which got the glue nice and hot underneath and then I found that it really helps with a lot of pressure with the veneer hammer. Then scraped off excess glue on the face and added it back to the pot and commenced with the next piece of veneer, and easily jointing that to the first piece using the same process.
I then did the back side of the substrate the same day, so the MDF wouldn't cup. A tip, scrape off as much excess glue with the veneer hammer as possible so you don't have to work to much with a scraper. AND if you get any bubbles in the veneer (might come the next day), simply run over it with the iron and press down hard with the hammer. Presto, no bubbles, no biggie.
This was the result255647
Hope this can be of some help. I would really encourage you to jump into it and learn a great and versatile skill. It really wasn't that hard. I must admit though, I practiced on some scraps first.

Regards David

[george wilson]

Yes,Zach,liquid hide will do. I also set the bottle in hot water,which makes it very liquid,and penetrates better,too.

Table over a radiatior: You will be lucky if the table top doesn't self destruct from the heat. I expect the veneer to start coming loose. Not a good place to put a veneered table.

[David Paulsen]

You might be right George, it will be an interesting lesson to see how it holds up under such conditions. Have told the client to call if anything happens. Also told her that it was an unstable situation, but that was the only way she wanted it. Time will tell... 3 months has past, and no call yet...

[Mel Fulks]

Nice work,David. And most impressive English ! You could work over here as a book editor!

[Jack Curtis]

Very nice looking table, David. Seems that if it survives winter, you're home free.

[george wilson]

Had one of my guitars destroyed when the owner left it resting against the radiator !! Broke it to pieces,and unglued things,too. What is wrong with people's heads?

[Greg Portland]

I saw this on Lee Valey's website:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,250,43298,43314,51167&p=51167

255551

For the occasional small project, or at least to try my hand at the process, do you think this would work? I can't imagine that Lee Valley would sell something that was junk.
I have used a similar manual pump system and the veneer (on a curved box top) has held up about 10 years now. This is a popular system for laminating skate board decks.

[Stew Hagerty]

I have used a similar manual pump system and the veneer (on a curved box top) has held up about 10 years now. This is a popular system for laminating skate board decks.

Yeah Greg, I saw in their discription about the skateboards. If it can apply veneer so it holds up under all the flexing and banging around that skateboarders dish out then it should work fine for me. If nothing else, at least it will give me a chance to experiment and learn. I picked up 4 really nice veneer sets from my local woodworking store. Two are walnut burls and the other two are olive ash burls and 3 of the 4 of them will fit just fine in the 26 x 28 bag that comes with the Lee Valley kit.

I really do want to give hammer veneering a try, but I think for 60 bucks I'm going to order the Lee Valley kit for now. To me, it looks like the simplest way to get my feet wet in veneering.

[Robert J Johnson]

I found the photo of your harpsichord, George, and it's beautiful. I'm facing the very problem with contact cement that you mention. 38 years ago, I built a Hubbard French Double Manual harpsichord and, feeling that paint was a horrible thing to do to it, I decided to veneer it in cherry. Following advice that was common at the time, and being ignorant and inexperienced, I used contact cement. It held up very well for 25 years, but finally started to pucker and come loose. I'm now in the process of removing all the veneer and starting over. Rather than paint, I'd like to veneer it again, and it appears hammer veneering with hide glue might be my best option. I expect I'll need to do quite a bit of practicing before I start on it. What advice can you give me about the best veneer thickness to use with this technique, and how to go about hammering down the very large panels like the lid, spine and bentside before the glue sets up. I expect I might be able to use an iron on the flat parts, but I'm at a loss about how to manage the bentside. Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated.