Planing contest in Japan. Shavings to a whole other level...

[Peter Hawser]

Wow, I'd like to learn how these guys sharpen their planes! :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/13/in-japan-wood-planing-can-get-awfully-competitive/

[David Weaver]

I think they might be reading the forums. Notice the date on that is just two days ago, and we've been talking about it for quite a while - same video. A week, two weeks?

[Peter Hawser]

Sorry, was in a hurry on my way out and thought this was new. Mod, feel free to delete this.

[David Weaver]

Well, it is new that it made the washington post. I wonder where they saw it, though, that's a real curiosity.

[Chris Fournier]

We had a similar type of contest when we played hockey. The guys would collect their shin pad tape for the season and they accumulated into giant tape balls. We spent more time talking about tape balls in the change room after the game than about hockey.

[Terry Beadle]

I'm still wondering.... What do they do as a sharpening routine?
Are they using 50,000 grit natural stones?
Do they use a special ceramic?
Do they wish upon a star while they meditate their edge to a thought inspired atom slicer?

Seriously, Stu? Do you know?

[Stuart Tierney]

Seriously, Stu? Do you know?

It's more the Indian than the arrow, but really nice arrows do help.

Synthetics will do it, naturals will do it too, but it's getting the most of the stone that really does the deed for sharpening. That, and being familiar with the tool in hand that completes the deal.


I don't know how I managed to stay out of all this kerfuffle until now. Maybe a desire to not see the dead horse beaten to pulp?


Stu.

[James Pickering]

I think they are sharpened by traditional Nihonto (Japanese sword) polishers ("a Katana is a three foot long razor blade")!

James

[Stanley Covington]

I think they are sharpened by traditional Nihonto (Japanese sword) polishers ("a Katana is a three foot long razor blade")!

James
Sword polishers (togishi) in general do not polish swords to make then sharp anymore. In fact, subsequent to 1876 when it became illegal to carry them in public in Japan, there has been little call for sharp Japanese swords. Sword polishers excel at polishing, that is, making the steel beautiful, but not necessarily sharp. The sword polishers I have worked with in the past included the well know Fujishiro Okisata who admitted to me once that he could not make a sword as sharp as a Japanese carpenter makes his plane blade. If you want a truly sharp plane blade for Kezuroukai, take it to someone who specializes in sharpening planes. If you want a beautiful plane blade, I suggest you take it to a sword polisher, just don't send me the bill. :D

Stan

[Metod Alif]

Stanley,
Steel composition or the grain size must have something to do with the level of sharpness - and not just sharpening media/technique. I doubt that one can make, say, O1/A2 steels as sharp, using the same sharpening process. Any thoughts on this?
Best wishes,
Metod

[David Weaver]

Both of those steels can be made to make shavings that are less than 1/2 thousandth thick. They might be separated from white steel and swedish high carbon steels when it gets toward the levels where the record is held, though.

If, for example, you had any of the recent submicron stones and sharpened a standard premium western plane iron quickly with a microbevel at 32 degrees or so and a very fine back bevel (which you'd do only to make sure you had sharpened to the edge on both sides), things in the .0003-.0004 range are easily done if the wood is flat enough relative to your plane.

I recall warren mentioning that he'd measured shavings at four ten thousandths using oilstones (and presumably western planes).

Before you'd venture into that, though, you'd have to think about whether or not you wanted to take the time to do it, though. We're missing the part where they set up the planes, that part would be critical if you were planing a board that someone else had just planed flat.

[Stanley Covington]

Metod:

You are correct, of course. I have not conducted any polls, but I believe the majority of those ranking high in the competition are probably using Hitachi Metal's Yasuki Shirogami No.1 (aka White Steel #1), which has 1.25-1.35% carbon and no other additives. This steel, if well forged before and during hammer welding, and if tempered at the right temperature, tends to produce a very fine structure with smaller, evenly distributed carbide crystals ( I won't get into the technical terms). Such a blade takes an excellent edge that holds up pretty well against soft and medium hard woods. And it is easily sharpened, so it has long been the preferred domestically produced steel for planes, chisels, kiridashi, axes, sickles, and other edged woodworking tools and farming hand implements.

The problem with this steel is that it is difficult to work for two reasons. First, it permits little leeway when heat treating, so if the Blacksmith's control of temperature, or his timing is just a little bit off, it tends to crack. Second, it tends to warp terribly when heat treated, and requires a great deal of skill to keep under control. A careless or less-skilled smith will have difficulty being very productive using White Paper Steel, so if a blacksmith can successfully work with this material, he probably has a lot of experience and great skill.

The second variety of steel used at this level of planing is designated "Blue Paper Steel No.1" also made by Hitachi. It also has 1.25-1.35% carbon content, but with some added chrome (0.3-.05%) and tungsten (1.5-2.0%). These additives greatly increase the acceptable temperature range for heat treatment while greatly reducing warping, so it is much easier to produce a high quality product with fewer rejects using this steel. This steel is also significantly more resistant to wear than White Paper Steel No.1, so it retains an edge longer. The downside is threefold: 1. More expensive (tungsten is pricey). 2. Won't get quite as sharp as White paper Steel No.1; and 3. The tungsten makes it harder to sharpen.

Most people can't tell the difference between these two steels, and for practical purposes, quality blades made from these two steels will perform almost identically. I have never owned a bad plane blade made of White Steel, but I have owned several duds made of Blue Steel. But I think that is more likely a measure of the blacksmith/manufacturer than the steel.

I am not impressed when I hear salesmen and marketing departments, people that should know better, bragging about the superiority of Blue Steel over White Steel in planes and chisels. Rest assured, if a blacksmith uses Blue Steel, it is not because he is more skilled, or selected a superior material with the end user in mind. Rather, he is using Blue Steel because it is less troublesome to use, has fewer rejects, and helps him to be more productive/profitable. Blue Steel is better suited to high-volume production. I don't even want to talk about Super Blue Paper Steel.

But don't misunderstand. I have been talking about minute differences. Either steel can be used to make a fine plane blade. A guy who knows how to sharpen, and who has the right stones for the blade he is sharpening, can make either type of steel sharp enough to cut the shavings you saw in the videos.

There are other varieties of steel from other manufacturers with similar properties that work just as well. In fact, one of them is Swedish. Here are some links. Sorry they are Japanese. http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_01.html http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/prod/prod19/p19_13.html (look for the 657kb pdf file link in the lower right of the page).

You asked about A-2. I can only talk about my direct experience. I have been unable to get my Lie-Nielson A-2 steel blades as sharp as either my White Steel blades made by Yokosaka or My Blue Steel plane blades made by Mr. Usui. Perhaps that is just me, but I have been trying for years using a variety of very good stones. A-2 steel will get quite sharp, but there is a tangible difference in my blades. And there is no doubt that the White Paper Steel blades sharpen quicker. David or Stu or others on the forum might have different experiences using different stones.

I have not competed at any Kezuroukai, so take what I write next with the appropriate amount of salt. While very important, I don't think making the blade sharp enough is the biggest challenge for the guys competing at that level. The difficulty, IMO, lies in getting the plane's body and sole set up perfectly, and then getting the blade projecting perfectly, and then having it retain that fine setting throughout each pass. After a certain point in tool quality is reached, the skill of the guy sharpening and setting up and adjusting the plane is much more critical than the steel in plane's blade, IMO. As Stu said, the Indian, not the arrow.

Stan

[David Weaver]

Metod:

You are correct, of course. I have not conducted any polls, but I believe the majority of those ranking high in the competition are probably using Hitachi Metal's Yasuki Shirogami No.1 (aka White Steel #1), which has 1.25-1.35% carbon and no other additives. This steel, if well forged before and during hammer welding, and if tempered at the right temperature, tends to produce a very fine structure with smaller, evenly distributed carbide crystals ( I won't get into the technical terms). Such a blade takes an excellent edge that holds up pretty well against soft and medium hard woods. And it is easily sharpened, so it has long been the preferred domestically produced steel for planes, chisels, kiridashi, axes, sickles, and other edged woodworking tools and farming hand implements.

The problem with this steel is that it is difficult to work for two reasons. First, it permits little leeway when heat treating, so if the Blacksmith's control of temperature, or his timing is just a little bit off, it tends to crack. Second, it tends to warp terribly when heat treated, and requires a great deal of skill to keep under control. A careless or less-skilled smith will have difficulty being very productive using White Paper Steel, so if a blacksmith can successfully work with this material, he probably has a lot of experience and great skill.

The second variety of steel used at this level of planing is designated "Blue Paper Steel No.1" also made by Hitachi. It also has 1.25-1.35% carbon content, but with some added chrome (0.3-.05%) and tungsten (1.5-2.0%). These additives greatly increase the acceptable temperature range for heat treatment while greatly reducing warping, so it is much easier to produce a high quality product with fewer rejects using this steel. This steel is also significantly more resistant to wear than White Paper Steel No.1, so it retains an edge longer. The downside is threefold: 1. More expensive (tungsten is pricey). 2. Won't get quite as sharp as White paper Steel No.1; and 3. The tungsten makes it harder to sharpen.

Most people can't tell the difference between these two steels, and for practical purposes, quality blades made from these two steels will perform almost identically. I have never owned a bad plane blade made of White Steel, but I have owned several duds made of Blue Steel. But I think that is more likely a measure of the blacksmith/manufacturer than the steel.

I am not impressed when I hear salesmen and marketing departments, people that should know better, bragging about the superiority of Blue Steel over White Steel in planes and chisels. Rest assured, if a blacksmith uses Blue Steel, it is not because he is more skilled, or selected a superior material with the end user in mind. Rather, he is using Blue Steel because it is less troublesome to use, has fewer rejects, and helps him to be more productive/profitable. Blue Steel is better suited to high-volume production. I don't even want to talk about Super Blue Paper Steel.

But don't misunderstand. I have been talking about minute differences. Either steel can be used to make a fine plane blade. A guy who knows how to sharpen, and who has the right stones for the blade he is sharpening, can make either type of steel sharp enough to cut the shavings you saw in the videos.

There are other varieties of steel from other manufacturers with similar properties that work just as well. In fact, one of them is Swedish. Here are some links. Sorry they are Japanese. http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_01.html http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/prod/prod19/p19_13.html (look for the 657kb pdf file link in the lower right of the page).

You asked about A-2. I can only talk about my direct experience. I have been unable to get my Lie-Nielson A-2 steel blades as sharp as either my White Steel blades made by Yokosaka or My Blue Steel plane blades made by Mr. Usui. Perhaps that is just me, but I have been trying for years using a variety of very good stones. A-2 steel will get quite sharp, but there is a tangible difference in my blades. And there is no doubt that the White Paper Steel blades sharpen quicker. David or Stu or others on the forum might have different experiences using different stones.

I have not competed at any Kezuroukai, so take what I write next with the appropriate amount of salt. While very important, I don't think making the blade sharp enough is the biggest challenge for the guys competing at that level. The difficulty, IMO, lies in getting the plane's body and sole set up perfectly, and then getting the blade projecting perfectly, and then having it retain that fine setting throughout each pass. After a certain point in tool quality is reached, the skill of the guy sharpening and setting up and adjusting the plane is much more critical than the steel in plane's blade, IMO. As Stu said, the Indian, not the arrow.

Stan

I do like super blue a lot, but it has to be done up with synthetic stones to get its maximum potential. Stu's 13k does wonderful things with it, as does the shapton. The one that came in the tsunesaburo plane came with a nice soft watetsu backing and was pretty easy to sharpen on synthetic stones because the lamination was suitable (not huge and thick). It took a great edge on synthetic stones. The edge on natural stones was fine, too, but they obviously only work with something like that if they are soft enough to release particles and I haven't seen any evidence that any natural stones have particles less than 3 microns or so, so having those rolling around loose doesn't do anything for an edge chaser. It needs synthetics to reach its maximum.

That's only my opinion. I'd like to keep every plane I ever got, but I would just chase rust all the time if I did.

[Stew Hagerty]

Sorry, but I must have missed the other posts as well...

I was actually wondering what wood they were planing. We all know that the wood makes loads of difference as well.

[Stanley Covington]

Sorry, but I must have missed the other posts as well...

I was actually wondering what wood they were planing. We all know that the wood makes loads of difference as well.

Participants bring their own wood to plane, so it varies. What I have seen is Hinoki (cypress, various varieties from various locales), Sugi (cedar, various varieties from various locales. Some varieties of sugi are difficult to plane), and Hiba (Thujopsis Dolabrate, in the Cypress family. Quality varies by locale). All of these are soft, aromatic woods. Without exception, they are using pieces with very straight, uniform grain. I have heard of guys using Alaskan Cedar and Port Orford Cedar, both if which plane very nicely.

Stan

[Metod Alif]

Stan,
I notice slight difference between my Japanese chisels and A2 on LN's or O1 on my planes - after the same honing steps. Ether one gets sharp enough for my taste - but not for competing, of course.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Stanley Covington]

Interesting lunch today with a fellow involved in the Kezuoroukai. He told me that one guy that has won a lot in the Ogana Class (big wide planes) had Kyocera custom make a large ceramic platten for him which he uses with abrasive powder to flatten his blades. He has had Kyocera re-flatten the thing multiple times.

He uses a strange sharpening regimen. He sharpens his big blades to #30,000, then finishes them with an #8,000 grit stone. WTF you say? The #8,000 grit cutting edge is plenty adequate for cutting the thin shavings needed to win. Also, one cannot tell the difference in the quality of the shavings or the wood surface remaining whether the blade is sharpened to #8,000 or #30,000, but the blade finished with the #8,000 grit stone requires significantly less force to pull, a factor in the Ooganna class.

The theory at work here is that the wood can't tell the difference between a #30,000 grit finished blade or a #8,000 grit finished blade, but if there are big gaps between the teeth the finishing stone leaves, these gaps will make shavings tear causing the cut to fail. By polishing the edge to #30,000 grit he removes these big gaps and makes the teeth more uniform. The downside of the #30,000 grit stone finish is that it produces a much larger area of steel touching the wood creating more friction and making the plane more difficult to use. But, he said, if one follows the #30,000 stone with an #8,000 stone, friction is significantly reduced and the plane becomes easier to pull while still creating excellent unbroken shavings.

Obviously the guy is heavily into it. Safer than racing drag bikes, and funner than raising purple hybrid hamsters, I suppose.

[Terry Beadle]

I also wonder.... Has any one entered the competition with a steel plane... like a Holtey or a 18th century Spiers or a 21st century LN?

[Kees Heiden]

Yes. At least in Germany. Interesting to read how Gerd Fritsches tries to make an infill plane capable of competing with the Japanese ones.
http://traditional-handplanes.com/GFTH_Blog/2012/06/21/infill-meets-kanna/

[Terry Beadle]

Thank you Mr. Heiden...! too cool by far.

[Matt Lau]

For what it's worth, I found Stanley's post to be remarkably informative.
I'm not in a position to buy new chisels yet, but I'll be readying for a "keeper" set in the intermediate future.
Knowing these things will be useful.

[JimT Thompson]

This from a website hosting that remarkable video: "9 microns! A micron is one-millionth of a meter or one-thousandth of a millimetre. For reference, the diameter of a red blood cell is 8-9 microns, a cloud water droplet is about 10 microns across, and an average human hair is about 100 microns across."

[Jim Neeley]

Yep.. Nine microns is just over one-third of a thou.

[Bruce Haugen]

I also wonder.... Has any one entered the competition with a steel plane... like a Holtey or a 18th century Spiers or a 21st century LN?

How about Ron Brese's panel plane (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=2c0d2ASiycg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D2c0d2ASiycg)?

[david charlesworth]

I specialise in tuning old Stanleys and records with my students. These are usually 5 1/2 or 5. For a long time we have sharpened with King stones, either 8,000 or 10,000 grit for the polishing stone, and of course the ruler trick. I am certain that we produce shavings of around half a thousandth of an inch, (which would be about 12 microns), with these tuned up planes. Over the years we have used Hock irons, both A2 and 01, Clifton blades, forged carbon steel, Japanese laminated blades, Pinnacle A2, Ray Iles D2 and even standard horrible thin Stanley blades.

My point, which has already been stated by others, is that good sharpening, solid bedding and suitably flat soles are all that are required to get this kind of performance.

One factor which is rarely mentioned is the wood species. I bet that slow grown, air dried timber is part of the equation.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Jim Matthews]

One factor which is rarely mentioned is the wood species. I bet that slow grown, air dried timber is part of the equation.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

You mean that demonstrations don't involve the commonly available timber?
Horrors.

[Jim Matthews]

... and funner than raising purple hybrid hamsters, I suppose.

How thin a shaving can one of those make?

[Stanley Covington]

How thin a shaving can one of those make?

Depends on how fine you set the Hybrid Hamster's mouth! The furry body is so much more comfortable for long planing sessions, but be careful of their little toenails, which can scratch the wood if the little fellas are allowed to scramble about. ;)

[Charlie Stanford]

Metod:

You are correct, of course. I have not conducted any polls, but I believe the majority of those ranking high in the competition are probably using Hitachi Metal's Yasuki Shirogami No.1 (aka White Steel #1), which has 1.25-1.35% carbon and no other additives. This steel, if well forged before and during hammer welding, and if tempered at the right temperature, tends to produce a very fine structure with smaller, evenly distributed carbide crystals ( I won't get into the technical terms). Such a blade takes an excellent edge that holds up pretty well against soft and medium hard woods. And it is easily sharpened, so it has long been the preferred domestically produced steel for planes, chisels, kiridashi, axes, sickles, and other edged woodworking tools and farming hand implements.

The problem with this steel is that it is difficult to work for two reasons. First, it permits little leeway when heat treating, so if the Blacksmith's control of temperature, or his timing is just a little bit off, it tends to crack. Second, it tends to warp terribly when heat treated, and requires a great deal of skill to keep under control. A careless or less-skilled smith will have difficulty being very productive using White Paper Steel, so if a blacksmith can successfully work with this material, he probably has a lot of experience and great skill.

The second variety of steel used at this level of planing is designated "Blue Paper Steel No.1" also made by Hitachi. It also has 1.25-1.35% carbon content, but with some added chrome (0.3-.05%) and tungsten (1.5-2.0%). These additives greatly increase the acceptable temperature range for heat treatment while greatly reducing warping, so it is much easier to produce a high quality product with fewer rejects using this steel. This steel is also significantly more resistant to wear than White Paper Steel No.1, so it retains an edge longer. The downside is threefold: 1. More expensive (tungsten is pricey). 2. Won't get quite as sharp as White paper Steel No.1; and 3. The tungsten makes it harder to sharpen.

Most people can't tell the difference between these two steels, and for practical purposes, quality blades made from these two steels will perform almost identically. I have never owned a bad plane blade made of White Steel, but I have owned several duds made of Blue Steel. But I think that is more likely a measure of the blacksmith/manufacturer than the steel.

I am not impressed when I hear salesmen and marketing departments, people that should know better, bragging about the superiority of Blue Steel over White Steel in planes and chisels. Rest assured, if a blacksmith uses Blue Steel, it is not because he is more skilled, or selected a superior material with the end user in mind. Rather, he is using Blue Steel because it is less troublesome to use, has fewer rejects, and helps him to be more productive/profitable. Blue Steel is better suited to high-volume production. I don't even want to talk about Super Blue Paper Steel.

But don't misunderstand. I have been talking about minute differences. Either steel can be used to make a fine plane blade. A guy who knows how to sharpen, and who has the right stones for the blade he is sharpening, can make either type of steel sharp enough to cut the shavings you saw in the videos.

There are other varieties of steel from other manufacturers with similar properties that work just as well. In fact, one of them is Swedish. Here are some links. Sorry they are Japanese. http://www.tsune36.co.jp/shin_01.html http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/prod/prod19/p19_13.html (look for the 657kb pdf file link in the lower right of the page).

You asked about A-2. I can only talk about my direct experience. I have been unable to get my Lie-Nielson A-2 steel blades as sharp as either my White Steel blades made by Yokosaka or My Blue Steel plane blades made by Mr. Usui. Perhaps that is just me, but I have been trying for years using a variety of very good stones. A-2 steel will get quite sharp, but there is a tangible difference in my blades. And there is no doubt that the White Paper Steel blades sharpen quicker. David or Stu or others on the forum might have different experiences using different stones.

I have not competed at any Kezuroukai, so take what I write next with the appropriate amount of salt. While very important, I don't think making the blade sharp enough is the biggest challenge for the guys competing at that level. The difficulty, IMO, lies in getting the plane's body and sole set up perfectly, and then getting the blade projecting perfectly, and then having it retain that fine setting throughout each pass. After a certain point in tool quality is reached, the skill of the guy sharpening and setting up and adjusting the plane is much more critical than the steel in plane's blade, IMO. As Stu said, the Indian, not the arrow.

Stan

Why in the world do you even bother with A-2, Lie-Nielsen, and western tools in general? What's the point when you live in Japan and have all that gear available to you, in-country?