Japanese saws: having trouble making straight rip cuts

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

When I try to make longer rip cuts I find the slight curve in the cut becomes a problem. I think it's there all along but too subtle to notice until 5 inches or so, and after a bit more it is a big problem. I've had this problem with both a vaughn brand pull saw and a much nicer but not high end saw from Japan Woodworker I got about a year back. Both blades are straight and have machine made impulse hardened teeth, so I suspect it is a matter of poor technique.

Any ideas? When I try and correct the problem I find the saw responds in nonintuitive ways and I get more of a dishing problem inside the cut than a correction of the problem.

I mentioned in my previous post about western saws that I was going to post about a similar problem with a Chinese bow saw - that's different. It has western style teeth and is probably a matter of setting the teeth correctly. I'll mess around with it before posting for help with that. This has me stumped, though.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I find I like to try and figure out where it's the saw, and where it's me. I try and remove myself from the equation, put a board in the vise, and pull from behind, centered on the board, not trying to follow a line, just saw. More than half of sawing accurately is starting right, and that's easy to mess up, and trying to "correct" a wrong line can invariably make things messy. I just like to make a few cuts without trying to guide the saw - maybe keeping my eyes closed, using no guiding pressure, just pulling pressure, and trying to center myself behind the saw. Make a few cuts, and see where they go. Even if the lines from these cuts don't stay parallel, if they stay straight over their length, I know the saw is cutting straight, and it's just my technique in some aspect or another. If the saw cuts continually veer to one side without me trying to guide it, the cuts aren't straight, I look at stoning a bit of the set off on the side it pulls to.

I had a Vaughan pull saw once, it was okay, but had too much set for working in dry hardwood.

If these are double sided saws, the other issue can be the cut closing up a bit, and the other side of teeth rubbing - even with a taper ground or well set saw, if you put teeth on both sides, it's going to get thicker again. For a longer rip cut, I like a single-sided saw.

These are just my experiences, and I'd let someone with more experience comment before I did something irreparable to my saw.

[Wilbur Pan]

How do you have yourself and the board set up, and how long of a rip cut are you making? That piece of information would be useful.

[David Weaver]

When you're cutting, start focusing on where you want the saw to cut about 4 or 5 inches ahead of where you are instead of where the cut currently is. If every saw does the same thing, it's probably not the saws.

At some point, you're going to find out that a western rip saw or a bow saw set up to rip is vastly superior in the woods that we use.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I'll try as you said to just saw and see. I know I tend to tense up when trying to follow a line, and the more I notice a problem the more I get in my own way. I'll mess around with the vaughan saw before the good one - it's cheap and dull in any case. I hadn't thought about the issue of two sided saws. I think I also need a lot of simple practice. Muscle memory rather than intention focus.

Joshua, thanks for all that info!

[David Weaver]

The design of the saw in general makes it a bit tough to rip. Instead of severing the straws off and pushing them out of the way, you're cutting directly across them or against them.

Loosen up a little bit, though, look at the path where you want to saw and keep looking ahead to where you want to saw and have at it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As always, David has good advice here, Fitzhugh.

And David's point about if every saw does it, it's probably not the saws is a very keen one - that realization is what helped me learn what I needed to focus on when I was trying to learn to saw.

Just changing the location of your head in relation to the cut can help a long way.

[David Wong]

Lately, I have been practicing short rips (12" - 36"), on a project using a ryoba. I find you really have to use a light tough on the saw. There is a strong tendency to try to power through a rip cut and really pull hard on the saw. This will invariably lead you off your line. I try to maintain a light grip on the saw and let the saw follow the line. Instead of pulling harder, vary the angle of the saw to get more "bite". If I get the feeling the saw is starting to wander, I will flip the stock and attack it from the other side. This tends to cancel any wandering error. I will generally flip the stock at least every 6" or so.

It also helps to use the correct size saw to match the stock you are working on. For anything over 1" thick stock, I will use a 270mm ryoba. If you are doing long rips with a double sided ryoba, then there is less room to maneuver the saw to correct a line. This is because the set of the teeth on the opposite side restricts your movement. I find "de-weighting" the saw for a few strokes can help get me back on the line.

As with most things, practice really helps.

[John Coloccia]

Lately, I have been practicing short rips (12" - 36"), on a project using a ryoba. I find you really have to use a light tough on the saw..

That's it right there. Japanese saws really require some touch and nuance to get them to track properly. It's the difference between flying a plane and flying a helicopter. In the helicopter, there's no muscle involved....you just sort of think about where you want it to go, and you let the helicopter do the work. With a Japanese saw, you develop a feel for keeping it straight, and you just kind of mentally nudge it where you want it to go. Those suckers are thin and will cut off line if you muscle it.

Or the blade can be screwed up. You can always try a new blade, but going 6" and driving off line stinks of actively driving it offline.

[Jim Matthews]

The only way I can rip straight with a Pull saw is from below the board.

It's always pulling toward me, in any other position (curving from right to left).
My guess is that you're like me, and applying a twist in the saw. That makes one set of teeth cut first.

You're inducing set, that way.

[Stanley Covington]

I agree with David that when cutting hardwood (or harder woods) it is easier to stay on track with a Western-style push saw. In softer woods, I think the Japanese ripsaw kicks butt.

David is also right about paying close attention to where the saw needs to be a few inches ahead of the cut.

I have read that handtools hate it when we anthropomorphise them, but you may find it effective, if a bit strange, to imagine your saw as a living thing that thinks for itself and is only happy when it is cutting wood.

Don't coerce your lovely and sensitive saw to follow a line, but accompany it to the destination you have in mind. You wouldn't grab your wife by the ankle and drag her to a titty bar would you? :eek: Likewise, you can try to force a saw to go you where you want it to go without its prior consent, but the results may be shockingly ugly, even if the legal fees are less. Pay very close attention along the way to the destination you and your saw have mutually agreed upon or you might wander and part company. A lonely saw is a sad saw. :(

Make your body and eyeball a mechanism the saw rides as it gleefully cuts wood; every stroke exactly the same and with a minimum of force and movement. :)
The alignment of your eyeball/shoulder/elbow/hip is absolutely critical in making this mechanism. Imagine your hand holding the sawhandle lightly brushing your side at exactly same spot with every stroke.

Grip the saw as a fencer holds a foil: like a small bird that escapes if held too loosely, or is crushed to death if held too tightly. It sometimes helps to extend the index finger.

The most important thing is to realize that a saw cuts because it is sharp, and because it desperately wants to cut, but at its own pace, not because you are powerful and the saw's master. Give it time to do its job. If you force it, it will fight back. You just get out of the way and let it eat in peace.

Stan

[Chris Vandiver]

Ripping with any saw but especially with a Japanese rip saw, the initial kerf is all important . If your a little bit off to start(say, out of plumb)it will get progressively worse as the cut continues. Hard to make corrections with a Japanese pull saw. It will probably help to get a better saw to start with, like a Gyokucho or a Ginnokiba brand. They are reasonably inexpensive but still quite good. Practice makes perfect.

[Jack Curtis]

1. Examine the teeth on both sides for size of set. If one side is of a wider set, the saw will pull in that direction.

2. I suppose one can rip with a ryoba, but I prefer a kataba (single sided saw) so the other teeth don't interfere.

3. Forget you have an arm except for general guidance, let the saw cut for you.

4. The way to use the saw is important. Let the fulcrum be your elbow holding your forearm in a single plane horizontally. Move your upper arm back and forth, again, levering on your elbow, holding the shoulder/arm joint steady. Do not exert your pressure on the cut.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

"I have read that handtools hate it when we anthropomorphise them" HA!

I have a lot of homework to do. Reading all the responses made me realize I never properly looked at the body mechanics involved. I think I've always thought about what is going on right where the saw is cutting and never pulled my attention back to look at stance, how I line up with the board, how my arm moves, what is tense or loose, getting a smooth arc going...

I also remembered just now the time I first noticed it: I was ripping/resawing (I guess more the latter??) a 1 x 9 x 26 inch piece of ironwood for the sole of a try plane (turned out I'm too allergic to ironwood so it didn't get a separate sole). That super tough wood was driving me crazy and dulling the vaughan brand saw I had at the time. I started pulling harder, only to find it wandering. I'd forgotten ever noticing the connection but I bet that is part of it each time.

I also have not had a proper setup for sawing: I've generally sawn with the wood clamped to whatever I can clamp it to and haven't been at all methodical or consistent. I started building my bench well over a year ago, only to realize the wood I got for the top still needed to dry much more. It's a couple pieces a bit over three inches thick, finally dry a few months back but only now have I had a chance to tackle it again.

I have the wooden screw nearly complete, the top about a third planed, and finally got unstuck on the design and figured out what to do with the base. Analysis paralysis - never heard that term until a week or so ago - describes my workbench project to a "T"

Thank you for all the suggestions. Tomorrow I'll do the homework.

[Bryan Schwerer]

.

At some point, you're going to find out that a western rip saw or a bow saw set up to rip is vastly superior in the woods that we use.

Been there done that. What he said.

[Wilbur Pan]

I also have not had a proper setup for sawing: I've generally sawn with the wood clamped to whatever I can clamp it to and haven't been at all methodical or consistent. I started building my bench well over a year ago, only to realize the wood I got for the top still needed to dry much more. It's a couple pieces a bit over three inches thick, finally dry a few months back but only now have I had a chance to tackle it again.

Your setup may be an issue for longer rip cuts using a Japanese saw. I've found that for relatively short cuts, how you set up the board isn't too critical. I can clamp the board to my bench, with the cutoff hanging off the edge. I sometimes set up some scraps of wood of the same thickness to each other to raise the board off the bench, and saw one handed with the other hand holding the board in place. And since the cut is short, I can either cut from the near side and work forward, or the far side and work back.

But most rip cuts are longer, and I've found that setting yourself up properly is more important. Here are some things to try.

1. Since it's a longer cut, you'll have more luck starting at the far end of the board and working towards you. When doing this, don't look at where the saw is cutting. Look at where you want the saw to end up on the near side of the board, and aim for this spot. This is a lot easier to do than it is to describe.

(It's not impossible to do a long rip cut starting on the near side and working forwards. But I think this is harder to do.)

2. Get yourself above the cut. If the board is on your workbench, it is likely too high. Because the board is high, the saw will be making a relatively shallow angle with the board, which means too many teeth are engaged in the cut. Getting above the board makes that angle less shallow, resulting in less teeth in the cut, which means easier sawing for you.

Addressing this will probably mean making some short sawhorses and maybe even standing above the board the way you see in videos of Japanese woodworkers that lots of people make fun of. That's fine. The advantage of doing it this way is you can use your legs to power the saw stroke, which again will make things easier.

3. If you want to try to saw on your workbench, have the board clamped, and put two hands on the saw. This by itself will do a lot to straighten out the cut.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that western saws are superior at ripping domestic hardwoods than Japanese saws. First of all, the setup of the teeth of a western rip saw match most closely with the rip side of a 270-300mm ryoba, and most people are using 240mm ryobas for this task. Second, it's rare to find a Japanese saw whose teeth are set up for hardwood cuts, which means relaxing the rake. Your Vaughn saw certainly won't be set up this way.

The one thing that a western rip saw has an advantage over a Japanese rip saw/ryoba is length. One stroke of a western rip saw, which is usually 26" long or more, pushes over twice as many teeth through the cut as a single pull stroke of a 300mm ryoba. But I think that what you lose in number of strokes you gain in overall ease in terms of being able to use both arms and your legs when using a Japanese saw for ripping, as well as how clean the sawn surface will be when using a Japanese saw.

Full disclosure: My usual go to for ripping is my bandsaw. ;)

[David Weaver]

The western saw's advantages are more than just length. The orientation to use the saw is already the most advantageous position for ripping, literally pushing the straws off. You also are set up to be able to bring your weight to bear on the saw, so once you are skilled with the saw, leaning into it on a fast rough cut is natural. The japanese saws have to make up for that by having greater hook, or they won't engage in the cut. You are stuck orienting yourself in a way to try to minimize those teeth pulling straight into the straws, and as jim said, that leads some people to try to find a way to get under the board, and others to use a lighter touch.

I caused a row previously by saying that I'd challenge anyone to use a reasonably widely available japanese saw for a rip vs. a western saw. I'd still make that offer, and I am a white collar pudding-bodied schlub, I think the method provides enough advantage I could beat any fit japanese-tool hobbyist with any modest kit.

Japanese planes have an advantage in rough work, one that lessens the load on arms and shoulders in a long cut, and one that allows the user to start a heavy cut from the middle of a board from a dead stop without a jerk.

But I think they compromised themselves in their ability to rip medium hard and hard woods with the design of their saws. A good japanese saw is unequaled by a western saw for finish crosscut work, and I think the converse is true for heavy work like ripping rough lumber.

(I do use a bandsaw sometimes, but rarely on 4/4 and 8/4 rips anymore. I tried hard to make the ryobas and katabas work before I split off into western saws, too, and happily used the katabas and ryobas on wood when I was building a lot of tools - blanks that easily fit in a vise, etc)

[Stanley Covington]

I'd buy tickets to that match! Want me to set it up for the next Kezuroukai? Have you got a trainer?

Stan

[David Weaver]

I don't have a trainer, but I probably already have the japanese tools that most enthusiastic hobbyists would use if they had to have a saw they could lay hard into in a rip cut. It's my dirty secret...I'm one of those enthusiastic japanese tool using hobbyists sometimes. (I'm not quite as much of a physical slop as I make myself out to be either, i guess.)

A long while ago, mike wenzloff was going to make a 400mm rip kataba, presumably out of 1095, meaning any sure handed hobbyist would be able to keep it sharpened. Then he got sick. I was hoping he'd come out with it, but I've made the transition now. I gave up on trying to fixture/set myself up so that I could make a 4-5 foot rip with a japanese saw quickly. Something that takes about two minutes or less to do with 4/4 or 5/4 cherry stock on a decent sawbench with a western saw. And the sawbench can be just about anything.any sure handed hobbyist would be able to keep it sharpened.

[Wilbur Pan]

I caused a row previously by saying that I'd challenge anyone to use a reasonably widely available japanese saw for a rip vs. a western saw. I'd still make that offer, and I am a white collar pudding-bodied schlub, I think the method provides enough advantage I could beat any fit japanese-tool hobbyist with any modest kit.


I'm hoping that by "reasonably widely available Japanese saw" you're not limiting the selection to 240mm ryobas, which are the most widely available Japanese saws out there. I do think that a 240mm ryoba will have a hard time keeping up with a western rip saw. But then again, I see a 240mm ryoba as being more of a large backsaw in the tasks that it is good at. And few people would want to take a large backsaw for ripping when a full size rip saw was available. 300mm ryobas, although out there, I don't think really fit the description of "reasonably widely available". And of the 300mm ryobas that I have tried, I do think the tooth profile needs to be tweaked if you are going to be sawing domestic hardwoods regularly.

I do think that this is an issue overall, in that the variety of types Japanese saws out there is more limited than western saws.

I'll admit I'm not the greatest at making rip cuts. Like I said, I usually go to a bandsaw for that task. But I have used western rip saws, and larger Japanese saws for rip cuts, and found that after I tweaked the teeth of a Japanese saw for hardwoods, the relative difficulty between the two methods was not huge. The Japanese saw might have been slower, but I was also a lot less tired than when I used a western rip saw for the same task. I could use either saw to cut close to my line. So for me, it's hard to say that one is clearly better than the other. I will say that this is a task that I'm still trying to optimize for myself.

[Chris Vandiver]

I know of quite a few professional Japanese carpenters who love(and covet)vintage western rip saws. I also know a Japanese carpenter who made a rip kataba from a Disston #7. It is one of his favorite saws.

[David Weaver]

No, I think my longest kataba is 330, and ryoba is 300 - i'd consider those widely available since I can get on the internet and order them without any trouble, and they're not terribly expensive. I wouldn't use a 240mm for any rip longer than a small piece of cabinet stock. It would just be a good way to stand in place for a long time and move a saw back and forth a lot.

The fundamental issue still isn't being addressed, the japanese saws at best will be used directly across the straws in a piece of wood, it's not an issue of adjusting specs a little (or a lot) to match the wood. They are at a severe speed disadvantage in any wood with strength in those straws cutting them either directly across the straws or back into them, as opposed to severing them from behind and just pushing them right out the end of the wood.

I think this is important enough to mention for someone who wants to work only with hand tools. Ripping with western saws very close to the line is a skill that doesn't take long to learn, and a fixture to do it can be made out of a single 2x12.

However, to make essentially 50-100 feet of rips in a large project with a ryoba would be out of the question (my hands ache just thinking about it - you cannot rip quickly with a japanese saw without a hard grip). It's a pleasant experience with a decent western saw, strictly because the advantages that you need to do it efficiently (severing the straws instead of scraping them off or working directly into them, and using your bodyweight during the cut naturally) are there.

I think the first time I ripped a 5 foot board, I thought the idea that people could do it fairly quickly for a whole project was completely foreign. It's now something I'd rather do than even go rip on the bandsaw.

I bring this up not as a contest of one tool being better than another, but from the aspect that I think there are folks who read this board and think "well, you really couldn't rip with hand tools" or "there's no difference between japanese and western tools, it's just what you get used to", and neither of those are true. Ripping efficiently by hand is tremendously satisfying. Multiplying the time by a factor of 2x or 3x and decreasing the pleasure to 1/2 y or 1/4 y is a bad combination.

It favors the white collar woodworker who wants to prepare rough lumber by hand to use western and japanese planes, because they work different muscles and you can outwork your fitness level on a one vs. the other basis, and work with speed on sizeable items. But ripping is different. It's not even sawing in general that this distinction is made, just ripping.

[Charlie Stanford]

I don't have a trainer, but I probably already have the japanese tools that most enthusiastic hobbyists would use if they had to have a saw they could lay hard into in a rip cut. It's my dirty secret...I'm one of those enthusiastic japanese tool using hobbyists sometimes. (I'm not quite as much of a physical slop as I make myself out to be either, i guess.)

A long while ago, mike wenzloff was going to make a 400mm rip kataba, presumably out of 1095, meaning any sure handed hobbyist would be able to keep it sharpened. Then he got sick. I was hoping he'd come out with it, but I've made the transition now. I gave up on trying to fixture/set myself up so that I could make a 4-5 foot rip with a japanese saw quickly. Something that takes about two minutes or less to do with 4/4 or 5/4 cherry stock on a decent sawbench with a western saw. And the sawbench can be just about anything.any sure handed hobbyist would be able to keep it sharpened. Then he got sick.

Great post.

[David Weaver]

Gad...I wish I would've read that post, Charlie. the "then he got sick" is sort of out of place when it's repeated at the end!

[Charlie Stanford]

I know of quite a few professional Japanese carpenters who love(and covet)vintage western rip saws. I also know a Japanese carpenter who made a rip kataba from a Disston #7. It is one of his favorite saws.

I suspect they find them quite liberating.

[Gabe Shackle]

I've only been able to successfully rip longer lengths (30"+) with the Ryoba style saws. Part of my problem is that my western style saws are probably not properly tuned up but just physically I'm able to use a pull saw much faster than a push. Whenever I rip something I stand it up vertically off the edge of my bench in a twin screw vice and rip from about shoulder height to the vice top which is about gut level then shift it up and continue down further or flip it and start from the other side. I'll stand facing the cut, centered almost directly in front of if and hold the saw kind of like a sword with a loose spread out grip. I find the finer blade and just being physically in line with the cut gives me much better results than when I try a push saw with one hand.

As far as speed goes, last night I ripped 4 1" x 36" lengths of 4/4 hard maple in about 20 minutes without getting sweaty.

As it's been mentioned before, you don't want to try to aggressively force the saw down through the material, just keep a relaxed grip and focus more on pulling the saw towards you, rather than down.

For any detail cuts, though, I still prefer a thin bladed western back saw.

[Jerry Thompson]

Once i lined up the saw handle & kerf with my naval it helped immensly. Your hands always know where your bellbutton is. No I am not kidding.

[Jim Koepke]

Each person finds their own way in these things.

For me, pull saws didn't always work well. Rip cuts always seemed to wander. At best my efforts at lowering the angle to get back on line helped, but still left a wavy uneven cut. This seemed to be amplified in harder woods. Some of my pull saws still get used at times, but most of the time my push saws do the job.

For rip cuts, it isn't hard to use both hands with a D-8 and the proper handle for ripping. My efforts at breaking down 10' 4/4 ash were documented here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?167535-Old-Saw-Ripping-Some-Ash

jtk

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

The saw in question is a 240, and I've usually used it to cut hard maple for the simple reason I haven't been successful enough at ripping to buy wood from the hardwood lumber yard here and rip it myself - just gone to BORG instead. That's a big reason I asked, didn't realize that had made it harder when I'd actually tried it. Also tried ironwood, as mentioned. THAT was difficult.

Can you tweak one of the disposable, impulse hardened pull saws like the RazorSaw I have? I know I could do better with a better saw, but I can't afford a higher end Japanese saw right now.

I also posted a thread about western saws and got great info. I think I'll try both learning to use the Japanese saws I have for what they're made for and get a western saw and try it for ripping. I'd avoided western saws because I was overwhelmed when I tried to find one I could afford and fix up. I have a much better idea of what to look for now. That said, I love the Japanese dovetail saw I have, and the bamboo pull saw is great when cutting bamboo.

[David Weaver]

What brand is the razorsaw? Gyochuko? Bear? Z?

All of those should work fine. The only think you're really going to do with an impulse hardened tooth saw at any point is to reduce the set on the saw. I don't think you want to do that at this point.

Ripping straight back into maple might be kind of tough. I'd say I wish I could get maple at my borg, but seeing what they think red oak and poplar are worth, I'd probably revise that as soon as I saw it there.

[Jack Curtis]

...At some point, you're going to find out that a western rip saw or a bow saw set up to rip is vastly superior in the woods that we use.

David, did you mean in comparison to Japanese rip saws? If so, I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I started using Japanese planes and saws because they're so much easier to use, and faster, hard and soft woods. Granted, I went in whole hog, learning to make Japanese planes and taking seminars with Odate and a couple of other experts; but the western tools, saws in particular, are so poor compared to the Japanese.

So I guess I don't know the basis of what you say, even with the following messages in the thread. It's all so contrary to everything I've experienced.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

Gyochuko. I had planned to write that above but forgot how to spell it by the time I returned to the computer. Razorsaw was easy to recall. The maple is not cheap, but I'm not making large furniture out of it, just smaller projects.

I didn't know you could even change the set, figured the teeth would just snap. I won't try it anytime soon but it is an interesting possibility.

[Stanley Covington]

Gyochuko. I had planned to write that above but forgot how to spell it by the time I returned to the computer. Razorsaw was easy to recall. The maple is not cheap, but I'm not making large furniture out of it, just smaller projects.

I didn't know you could even change the set, figured the teeth would just snap. I won't try it anytime soon but it is an interesting possibility.

Gyokucho (JewelBird) is a brandname owned by Razorsaw located in Miki Ono City, Hyougo Prefecture. I had a meeting with them a couple of weeks ago. Nice guys.

It is not difficult to remove set from an impulse-hardened sawblade, it just shortens the life of the saw a bit. But before you do anything so permanent, you want to make sure the cause for the wandering saw is not you. It is difficult to imagine that Razorsaw would let a blade with uneven set get out the door.

To remove a bit of set, you need a hard Arkansas stone, an old toothbrush, and some Wd-40 or mineral spirits.

Lay the saw down with the side thought to have too much set oriented up.

Lay the stone on the blade with the edge of the stone just covering the teeth.

Carefully drag the stone back toward the handle without applying any downward pressure. Don't move the stone from handle to the end of the blade direction. One stroke is usually enough. It should touch all the teeth on this side as it travels back.

Use the toothbrush to thoroughly brush away the stone dust and metal filings from the teeth. You may not be able to see this dust, but it is there, and if not removed it will quickly dull the teeth.

Spray the teeth with WD-40, or wash them with solvent to remove the last of the stone dust.

Test and repeat as necessary.

Stan

[Jim Koepke]

So I guess I don't know the basis of what you say, even with the following messages in the thread. It's all so contrary to everything I've experienced.

My experience is the pull saws can make a much finer cut. For me, they are more difficult to control than the heavier western saws. This is especially in rip cuts.

It is most likely if my training on saw usage had been different, my results would be different.

jtk

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

(edited)
Stanley, thanks for explaining. I won't try it anytime soon, it was just curiosity. I'm nearly 100% sure the problem is in my technique, that's why I mentioned having it with both saws I tried. I'll do some practicing/experimenting later today.

On a practical note: I'm having trouble cutting a tenon with the Gyokucho 240. I'm attempting to saw tenon CHEEKS (edit, had written shoulders) in a hard maple 3/4 by 6 for what I will divide into two tenons. I gather this saw is not ideal for the wood, and the width of the cut might be a bit much for the saw, but it is what I have.

I think I should start over the very beginning again with the saw:
I have the board clamped vertically, end grain up, and am facing the narrow edge. How should I start the cut, on the far side or near side? What kind of angle? Any tricks to getting that cut straight across that 6" line as I start it?
Should I clamp it horizontally instead, I pull toward the floor? Anything else? Not sure what to ask.
Thanks

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

OK, still would love any guidance, but while posting the above I thought about what I was writing. It occurred to me just how awkward I felt sawing up toward my throat when I started on the far edge, that led me to start on the near edge and pull down toward my bellybutton (as someone suggested). That made the motion feel right but meant I was trying to steer the far edge of the saw rather than the near edge. That alone made it difficult. I turned the board horizontally and started on the far end, making it so I was primarily aiming along the line I was actually pulling along. Still have to follow the other, but this changed the focus.

254584
EDIT: blue lines show where I was looking to steer. On left - one that didn't work - I was steering on the far side of the saw and starting cut on near side of line.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is something that may be of help:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182466-Old-School-Triangles

They have helped me for some long rips when my sawing has gotten a little off from no use.

jtk

[Jim Belair]

I struggle also with keeping to the line when ripping using a Japanese saw (glad to hear I'm not alone) but there is no way I could rip like your left drawing Fitzhugh. The saw is then cutting into the grain and I find it chatters like mad. I saw following your right drawing but can't understand this "start at the far edge" description. To me, Western saws are started at the far edge when ripping on a sawbench i.e. the edge furthest from the sawer, Unless one is pulling the saw up to the ceiling I don't see how one can start at the far edge.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

You're right, it wasn't clear AND what I was trying didn't make sense. I was trying to show the problem I had yesterday cutting a tenon shoulder, not a full rip, and the original drawing didn't show that right.
The blue lines show where I was looking to steer. The first drawing shows what failed, looking at the line on the far side of the saw. And yes, it didn't cut or aim well. The second shows what worked.

Jim, that's a good suggestion. I'll make some out of the scrap I made while practicing. Better for aiming a brace than the awkward and tipy combination squares I've been using (no try squares as of yet).

[David Weaver]

David, did you mean in comparison to Japanese rip saws? If so, I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I started using Japanese planes and saws because they're so much easier to use, and faster, hard and soft woods. Granted, I went in whole hog, learning to make Japanese planes and taking seminars with Odate and a couple of other experts; but the western tools, saws in particular, are so poor compared to the Japanese.

So I guess I don't know the basis of what you say, even with the following messages in the thread. It's all so contrary to everything I've experienced.

Very simple, western saws are superior by design for long rips. Nothing special is required but a bench of some type. It's faster, and a side note is that people seem to have less trouble with tracking. The latter isn't important, you can learn to cut on or close to the line with whatever you have. The former is very important.

And as a special bonus, superb western rip saws are fairly inexpensive and easily refreshed.

If japanese saws were superior in the kind of rips you have when you break down lumber or do large cabinetry, we'd be talking about how western professional cabinetmakers covet a japanese rip saw. But instead, the reality is that japanese craftsmen have an appreciation for western rip saws.

I'm not talking about standing a 1 foot piece of wood up in a vise and ripping, I'm talking about ripping 2-4 foot pieces of 4/4 to 8/4 lumber, and not hinoki and paulownia.

To steal a line from warren, your comments make me think you've never learned to properly use a western rip saw. To flatly believe that western saws are inferior to eastern saws is also a bit on the goofy side, especially when it comes to maintaining saws. The idea that you'd have to put your saws in the mail and send them to someone else to sharpen is nutty.

All that aside, we're talking purely about the combination of speed and accuracy in ripping. It's no contest, pulling straight across the straws or back into them is a shortcoming.

[David Weaver]

I nearly forgot, two saws eject the dust down away from the cut in a long rip (western rip saws and frame/bow saws), one pulls it up onto the cut. I can't see that being too beneficial in a 4 foot rip, either - never did much like that part.

[David Wong]

OK, still would love any guidance, but while posting the above I thought about what I was writing. It occurred to me just how awkward I felt sawing up toward my throat when I started on the far edge, that led me to start on the near edge and pull down toward my bellybutton (as someone suggested). That made the motion feel right but meant I was trying to steer the far edge of the saw rather than the near edge. That alone made it difficult. I turned the board horizontally and started on the far end, making it so I was primarily aiming along the line I was actually pulling along. Still have to follow the other, but this changed the focus.

I have not cut a tremendous number of tenons, but this is the method I am working on...

When ripping tenon cheeks, a good guideline is to only cut to lines you can see. I have read that one should visualize the end grain and face grain layout lines as a single straight line. I have a difficult time doing that, so I usually make a shallow cut in one line, then use that kerf as a guide to cut into the other line. This method will work with either orientation of your board. If it is a short board, I will clamp it vertically, and start the cut on the far side (opposite to your left drawing), and pull the saw into the layout line towards me. I will use my finger as a guide for the saw as I am deepening the cut along the vertical line. When you reach the shoulder line, or when your saw is at too steep an angle, flip the board and cut down the other layout line.

If I have the board horizontal as in your drawing, I will still make a shallow cut in the top line, using my finger as a guide to help "steer" the saw straight. I think the finger is more of a psychological crutch than of real use.

If I read your previous post correctly, using a 240mm saw to cut a 6" tenon in hard maple would be quite difficult. I don't have any hard maple, but I tried to cut down a 3/4" x 5" live oak board with a Gyokucho 240mm (model 610). I cut to about a 1.5" depth, and boy did the saw and wood get hot. I used some camellia oil on the saw, and that made the sawing marginally easier. If your tenon is not too deep, you should be fine with the 240mm. I did notice that on the narrow board, I was using the reflection of the board on the saw plate to help keep the saw oriented 90 degrees.

[Chris Fournier]

My first handsaws were Japanese, lovely fine cuts. Fragile as glass in western hardwoods and exotics. Difficult to sharpen. The readily available saws were scaled for smaller work (which was fine when all I did was build guitars). Getting fed up I turned to western saws and they are now my mainstays.

Regardless of saw style you need to develop a soft grip. Remeber that the saw plate references where you're going and keeps you on the straight and narrow. If you are forcing it, then something is wrong.

My hand and saw stroke naturally is tilted into my body. I concentrate on keeping the saw perpendicular to the work piece. I had to unlearn my natural grip and stroke. It took a while.

[Wilbur Pan]

All that aside, we're talking purely about the combination of speed and accuracy in ripping. It's no contest, pulling straight across the straws or back into them is a shortcoming.

There's one thing about this line of reasoning that doesn't click with me. I see where you're coming from with the cutting across the straws thing. What I don't understand is if this is a problem with domestic hardwoods, why isn't this a problem with paulownia? The reason I ask is that earlier in this thread you had ruled out paulownia as a wood to talk about in this discussion.

My feeling is that if long rip cuts can be made in paulownia with Japanese saws, they can be made in other woods as well. I don't have the answer to this just yet, but that doesn't mean it's an unsolvable problem. You had quoted Warren earlier about never having learned to use a western rip saw properly. I don't think I've learned to use a Japanese rip saw properly as far as long rip cuts go. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily inferior.


I nearly forgot, two saws eject the dust down away from the cut in a long rip (western rip saws and frame/bow saws), one pulls it up onto the cut. I can't see that being too beneficial in a 4 foot rip, either - never did much like that part.

That's an easy thing to get around. Look further down the line, away from the dust, and aim your saw to that point. It's like what experienced drivers do — they look down the road, as opposed to fixing their gaze on the car immediately ahead of them.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

On a practical note: I'm having trouble cutting a tenon with the Gyokucho 240. I'm attempting to saw tenon CHEEKS (edit, had written shoulders) in a hard maple 3/4 by 6 for what I will divide into two tenons. I gather this saw is not ideal for the wood, and the width of the cut might be a bit much for the saw, but it is what I have.


As an aside - I'd be doing this differently if I could - a six inch long surface like that approaches resawing. If you're doing a tenon that's only an inch or two long, you don't leave your self as much room to work on the corners - I do a tenon cut like that by holding the board in my vise at 45 degrees (end grain tilted towards me for a pulling saw, away me for a pushing saw) and cutting from a corner so I can watch both lines, then flip it and work from the other corner before working straight across.

Anyway, since the board is only 3/4" wide, so I assume you're removing maybe a 1/4" at most from each side - unless the tenon was super deep, I'd be grabbing my fillester plane, or sawing the crosscut first and grabbing a rabbet plane. If the board is agreeable, making the crosscut first and following by chopping out the waste with a chisel could work well, too.

If you have to saw, think about what you're doing with the shoulders as well - if your planned tenon is only say, 5 inches wide, knocking those off first might make your rip for the cheeks a little easier, because you've just knocked an inch off what you're asking your saw to rip.

[Jack Curtis]

...

To steal a line from warren, your comments make me think you've never learned to properly use a western rip saw. To flatly believe that western saws are inferior to eastern saws is also a bit on the goofy side, especially when it comes to maintaining saws. The idea that you'd have to put your saws in the mail and send them to someone else to sharpen is nutty....

That is an entirely erroneous assumption, David. My grandfather taught me to saw 60 some years ago. The maintenance functions I taught myself at 11 (grandfather died when I was 9), when I built my first project. My first dovetails were perfect. All with western saws.

I have no problem sharpening either variety, but I do send off the Japanese when a full metate needs to be done. This is an extremely rare event.

I got tired of the huge kerfs in western saws, and the subsequent energy required to rip, to say nothing of the wasted wood. I found the Japanese versions much more refined.

So why don't you roll your assumptions in a tortilla and eat them.

[Jack Curtis]

Fitzhugh, you may want to try tilting the tenon toward you for sawing, then saw starting with the far end. This allows you to hold the saw more or less level.

Your second drawing represents the way a lot of Japanese saw users approach the job. The piece is placed on the benchtop and sawed from top to bottom, which naturally disallows a lot of pressure applied to the saw. However, you need very good knees for this. You saw alternating side to side, in the same orientation.

[Stanley Covington]

My two cents. I like David's analogy to "straws."

As I wrote previously, in hard woods, I think Western style ripsaws give one better control.

In softer woods, the aggressive teeth of Japanese saws are an advantage IMO provided the sawyer (i) uses the proper stance; (ii) has the back, shoulder, and leg muscles for the job; and (iii) he doesn't mind working with his head down. Japanese rip saws are hard on the back! The large Japanese rip saws do not work well used at a bench, but are intended for the user to stand directly on the board/log being ripped, bend over, and pull. Both hands are needed on the saw, and both feet on the board/log. I feel sorry for the guy working under the timber being sliced in this famous woodblock print by Hokusai. Notice that there are four people shown (3 men and a woman?), with three guys actually working: One sawyer on top, one contorted sawyer underneath, and another fella sharpening. I assume they rotated tasks.

254832

Obviously, standing on the board being ripped is not convenient for work secured to a bench. Western rip saws work fine at the elevation of a bench or sawbench, and do not require the sawyer to put his whole body into the job. I think this makes the Western saw more useful in a wider range of applications. But Western saws have one fault, namely they need lots of clearance for the blade under the the board/log being cut, so they are not as useful for ripping boards/logs placed close to the ground.

Making long rip cuts with a ryoba is just plain silly. Ryoba are intended for cutting fairly narrow boards/beams to length, and for cutting joints where having both rip and crosscut blades combined in one saw is helpful. But they are not efficient for long rips.

Typical Japanese kataba or ryoba sold nowadays has a straight stick handle that can be tiring, and get in the way. Not intended for serious ripping all day long.

254833

For serious ripping, the best type of handle has always been attached at an angle. The tang of the saw can be bent, or a diagonal handle can be placed on a straight tang. This lets the sawyer pull straight back into his center of mass providing relatively more power and more control. Still hard on the back.



254835 254834

Here is a pic of my 340mm (13-3/8") Gagari. It was handmade between 1910 - 1920 from a steel sold in Japan as "Tougou Steel" which was produced by the Andrews Steel Company in Britain. This is the saw I use for serious rip cuts with a handsaw when I have limited clearance and I can't use my skillsaw. Cuts very well. It has had a hard life.

Stan

[David Weaver]

Here is a pic of my 340mm (13-3/8") Gagari. It was handmade between 1910 - 1920 from a steel sold in Japan as "Tougou Steel" which was produced by the Andrews Steel Company in Britain. This is the saw I use for serious rip cuts with a handsaw when I have limited clearance and I can't use my skillsaw. Cuts very well. It has had a hard life.

Stan

I like it!

George sent me a link a couple of weeks ago to a maebiki that looked in good shape. I'd have no use for it but I almost bought it, anyway.

My point of view (my opinion in this case) for the western saw when ripping the kinds of materials we are likely to use in the US (to make cabinetry type of stuff) is strictly given for someone who is thinking "which way should I go if I want to work entirely with hand tools". If everything that's being cut fits in a vise, then I have less of an opinion. On tenons, crosscuts and joinery, either or, no preference.

But on long rips of cabinet type material, as someone is likely to run into if they start making items made of glued-up hardwood panels for the carcase, definitely western saws. The two-hands-and-more-vummer method is also available for all of the old western saws, if it's needed due to fatigue. They all have a handle big enough to get the second hand in there somewhere.

I do love the rip saw you've posted, though, thank heavens for a handle that those with mild arthritis can still use. And being made of andrews steel...too cool.

[Tony Wilkins]

I had the same experience with a gyochucko 210mm. It was the first saw I got when I started woodworking last year. A try with a vintage Disston was much easier for me. Haven't given up on the gyochucko but the saws I've bought lately are western since they feel more 'right' to me.

[David Weaver]

Well, since this came back around, I had to make two rips on a 10/4 cherry board last night, 7 feet long each for moulding stock. I did, for sport, try to use a 300mm ryoba.

There was no way, no matter the orientation, to make the ryoba remotely competitive with a 4 1/2 point disston D8. Pulling all of the dust up onto the board on a rip that long when you're already pooped is also not very nice, sometimes it's nice to see the line.

I didn't time myself specifically, but the two rips, dropping an ink line on the board (which meant finding the sumitsubo) and planing the edge of the board dead square again between the two was in the neighborhood of half hour or a little less. I am still very glad that I made the decision to go the western saw route for ripping a long time ago.

[Jack Curtis]

Well, I wouldn't suggest that trying to rip long lengths with a ryoba would be productive. I use single sided saws.

[Stanley Covington]

Well, since this came back around, I had to make two rips on a 10/4 cherry board last night, 7 feet long each for moulding stock. I did, for sport, try to use a 300mm ryoba.

There was no way, no matter the orientation, to make the ryoba remotely competitive with a 4 1/2 point disston D8. Pulling all of the dust up onto the board on a rip that long when you're already pooped is also not very nice, sometimes it's nice to see the line.

I didn't time myself specifically, but the two rips, dropping an ink line on the board (which meant finding the sumitsubo) and planing the edge of the board dead square again between the two was in the neighborhood of half hour or a little less. I am still very glad that I made the decision to go the western saw route for ripping a long time ago.

David:

Why did you choose a ryoba? It does not seem to be the best test of either your skills or the saw's capabilities. Enquiring minds want to know....

Stan

[David Weaver]

Sorry that was a mistype. It's a 300mm z brand kataba. I don't like ryobas in a long rip, either. They mess with the back side of the cut too much.

I have to rip the same board again to make the base for the same case. I'll snap a picture of both saws at that time.

[Chris Vandiver]

Sorry that was a mistype. It's a 300mm z brand kataba. I don't like ryobas in a long rip, either. They mess with the back side of the cut too much.

I have to rip the same board again to make the base for the same case. I'll snap a picture of both saws at that time.



Z brand rip saws are pretty piss poor, as far as Japanese saws go. It's too bad that they're the only option for a rip kataba with a replaceable blade(that I know of). Much better to rip with a 300mm Gyokucho ryoba(or a ryoba of higher quality). If you're going to be planing the edge anyway, it makes no real difference whether the crosscut teeth mar the cut a bit.
Also, the more vertical the saw is in the cut, the faster the sawing will be.

[David Weaver]

Right, inevitably you end up making the cut perpendicular to the direction of the straws. What you'd really like to be able to do is bias the cut past vertical so you could sever the fibers at an angle, but physically you'd have to face the cut from the other direction to do it.

The Z kataba is too light (I would call it a complete waste of money), and it's already fighting against the fact that the western rip saw is cutting with an optimal orientation, is heavier and has your body weight behind it on the stroke. The fact that less sawdust is pulled onto the cut line is icing on the cake.

I do find a gyochuko ryoba to work a little better than the z kataba, but not too much relative to a good western saw, and it maneuvers a little less easily than a kataba does. What I'd really like to try against the western saw would be a much heavier saw than either properly made for heavy ripping, but something like that would be
* expensive, and if not require reconditioning
* still have the issue with the orientation of the teeth to the board (pulling across or into the straws and obscuring the cut line with frass)

It has gotten a little harder for complete novices to find good western saws cheaply. I think the thumbhole rip that I got about 5 years ago came with another thumbhole rip for $25 for the pair, I ordered them from someone on woodnet IIRC. People are out for blood now.

As far as rip methodology for a fat office worker like me (OK, i'm not that fat, but a professional carpenter or cabinetmaker would've been in shape), I don't use sawhorses or any of that stuff. I just center a board like that on my sawbench, cut about the first 6 inches or a foot and then sit on the board and cut with two hands. Vertical is easier to maintain when you're cutting sitting like that and you never get so tired with two hands that you have to stop. If the board would be balanced such that it would fall off the sawbench, it's no big deal, because you're sitting on it and not allowing that to happen. It's an almost comfortable event.

[Jack Curtis]

I just tried to rip a long board with a western dovetail saw and it didn't work very well, it was so hard to use. So I picked up my handmade kataba 300mm rip and it worked a charm. Geesh, let's mislead and confuse as much as possible to make my point.

[David Weaver]

My challenge still stands. Any reasonably widely available kataba vs. a common disston western rip saw.

The advice is given not based on anything other than to not lead beginners into thinking they're going to go all hand tools, work with woods we commonly work with in the US and have a good experience with japanese saws when ripping lumber. They won't. They can play around with small boards in their vise, use very soft woods, etc, to dance around it and maybe get by, but...

If you have a handmade kataba I still doubt you could work with the speed and duration that you can with a western rip saw. You're working across or against the wood with the saw, against your body weight on the power stroke, with a shorter stroke and pulling dust onto your cut line. How are you going to get around that, sit underneath the board?

Until i see videos of amateurs effectively ripping long hardwood boards (not to mention 8/4+ boards) with japanese rip saws, the point of the thread still stands. If you're a beginner and you're going to make cabinetry or anything close to that, do yourself a favor and stick to the western saws for heavy ripping. Your pocket will be more full, and you'll get through your rips faster and more comfortably, and common files and sawsets will sharpen your saws easily.

Suggesting that my scenario was similar to trying to use a western dovetail saw shows there's no reasonable japanese alternative. Implying that beginners just need to stick it out or go up the ladder is just as foolish when there's an inexpensive, faster, and more comfortable to use type of saw floating around everywhere.

If I'm way off base, it should be easy to find a video of someone making a 4 or 6 foot rip with a japanese saw in something other than styrofoam wood. As dedicated as you are to western rip saws being a waste of energy with fat kerfs, it should be easy for you to make a video yourself showing how far off base I am.

Call me anti-metate or whatever if you want, i do also think it's a real waste of effort for any professional or proficient amateur craftsman to have a saw that they have to ever pack up and send halfway around the world, let alone halfway across town.

[David Weaver]

This has gotten contentious, and I may be the cause somewhat for it, but I genuinely want to see a demonstration of someone doing a long comfortable and fast rip of a hardwood board with a japanese saw. I've been checking for years, and especially when I had only a large ryoba and was trying to use that. it's double frustration because it's so difficult to search in youtube for japanese stuff, and the ripping that I've seen is either not very authentic (people fumbling around with saws, or playing with maebiki at some event) or is thin pieces of very soft wood.

I added fuel to it above mostly because, while I like to use japanese tools and have a fair number of them where it makes sense, it seems like there is a small group of folks who buy into this stuff like "big kerfs from western saws" and go blindly into "all japanese stuff is better, it's just better". I see a fundamental problem here, no matter how expensive the saw, how narrow the kerf, how small the set, the orientation of use is just counter to the way wood is made.

Rather than turn it into a discussion of strawmen and hyperbole that just makes no sense, I'm hoping that someone can show me that I'm wrong. Chris's post about knowing japanese craftsmen that covet their western rip saws is especially telling within a traditional culter that doesn't exactly run out to purchase gaijin goods.

And part of me is just somewhat disgusted that I wasted several hundred dollars on japanese saws that I don't use. I still marvel at the crosscut saws and the small joinery saws, but it's my opinion from use that the rip saws are pretty much a waste of time. Not surprisingly, those small pullsaws are the ones that made their way into "common man" stores over here, but the rip saws never did.

[Wilbur Pan]

This has gotten contentious. You must be really frustrated with the ripping a board with a Japanese saw thing, because I know this is not typical of your writing style.

I can't answer the Japanese rip saw question because I haven't figured it out myself. But there are a couple of points I can address.


If you have a handmade kataba I still doubt you could work with the speed and duration that you can with a western rip saw. You're working across or against the wood with the saw, against your body weight on the power stroke, with a shorter stroke and pulling dust onto your cut line. How are you going to get around that, sit underneath the board?

When I've tried sawing from above the board, I don't see working against my body weight as an issue. What that position does allow me to do is to use my legs and trunk to help power the pull stroke. The added advantage of being able to put my leg and trunk muscles into the cut certainly outweighs any disadvantage that gravity brings. For that matter, that is an advantage of using a Japanese saw for a rip cut. You can't bring your legs to bear when using a western rip saw.

As far as the dust on the line thing goes, I've stated this before, but I'll repeat it here. That's an easy thing to get around. Look further down the line, away from the dust, and aim your saw to that point. It's like what experienced drivers do — they look down the road, as opposed to fixing their gaze on the car immediately ahead of them.


I added fuel to it above mostly because, while I like to use japanese tools and have a fair number of them where it makes sense, it seems like there is a small group of folks who buy into this stuff like "big kerfs from western saws" and go blindly into "all japanese stuff is better, it's just better". I see a fundamental problem here, no matter how expensive the saw, how narrow the kerf, how small the set, the orientation of use is just counter to the way wood is made.

The orientation of the teeth to the fibers of the wood certainly can be seen as a disadvantage, but like all disadvantages, it can be overcome by other factors in sawing, and can't be looked at in isolation. You could just as well say, "No matter how well the saw stroke follows the grain, how expensive the saw, how well sharpened it is, the larger kerf of western saws and the subsequent increase in the volume of wood that needs to be removed compared to a Japanese saw is just counter to efficient sawing."

For the record, I'm not one to say that Japanese tools are superior, even though I really like using them.

My take has been that Japanese woodworkers needed to rip boards back in the day before bandsaws could do it for all of us. And this problem is a solvable one. We just don't know what that solution is yet. And I'm sure there is a solution. Remember, it wasn't too long ago when people who advocated the proper set up of a chipbreaker to solve difficult planing issues were looked at with some skepticism. My bet is that we are in the same situation here.

If I figure it out, though, I'll make a video. Deal?

[Jack Curtis]

Wilbur, do you remember that video of Odate ripping a wide hard wood board in very short order at WIA, from a couple or four years ago? I've been searching for it, but without luck.

[David Weaver]

For the record.....I really like using them.


Yeah, me too!


My take has been that Japanese woodworkers needed to rip boards back in the day before bandsaws could do it for all of us. And this problem is a solvable one. We just don't know what that solution is yet. And I'm sure there is a solution. Remember, it wasn't too long ago when people who advocated the proper set up of a chipbreaker to solve difficult planing issues were looked at with some skepticism. My bet is that we are in the same situation here.

If I figure it out, though, I'll make a video. Deal?

Sounds good. I'm assuming the rips in quantity were done by guys who wielded maebiki professionally. After that, I don't know when power tools were adopted in japan for long rips on a trade basis. We have Odate's account, that he'd met someone who was elderly and was one of the last in that line of trade work, or something along those lines.

Then again, I don't have any hand tool woodworker's account in the US, either. Mechanization had long since taken over around 1900.

Here in the city, there are still a lot of buildings left from the early 1900s and late 1890s, and the nice ones are loaded with the kind of millwork you'd see in an old curtis woodwork catalog (but on a grander scale and of solid walnut, etc). So the hand tooling was already long long dead. Same goes for furniture, except it wasn't as tasteful as the mechanically made architectural millwork.

[Wilbur Pan]

Wilbur, do you remember that video of Odate ripping a wide hard wood board in very short order at WIA, from a couple or four years ago? I've been searching for it, but without luck.
The only video I've seen of Odate at WIA was a planing demonstration. I went to that WIA, and I don't recall Odate demonstrating long saw cuts. He did a saw demonstration, but it was mainly joinery cuts.

At the old Woodworks Show, Odate did a demonstration of resawing a large piece of wood. I didn't go to that show, but here's an old thread that has a picture of Odate at work. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?5042-Resawing-the-neander-way

[David Weaver]

I'm a big fan of THAT saw!! I wonder when rockler will carry one of those.

I perused the web last night looking for something more substantial that's easily available, but I couldn't find anything. Dick Tools has some timber saws that would be good for very thick rips, but I don't know how they'd be if you tried to use them on 4/4 and 8/4 (not a big deal, I don't use the same saw on both).

I struggled to find anything less than $150, though, vintage or otherwise. And though the proper $700 saws looked really nice, I can't justify either for just experimenting.

I checked stus, hida, suzuki tool and ebay and didn't come up with much.

[Stanley Covington]

I'm a big fan of THAT saw!! I wonder when rockler will carry one of those.

I perused the web last night looking for something more substantial that's easily available, but I couldn't find anything. Dick Tools has some timber saws that would be good for very thick rips, but I don't know how they'd be if you tried to use them on 4/4 and 8/4 (not a big deal, I don't use the same saw on both).

I struggled to find anything less than $150, though, vintage or otherwise. And though the proper $700 saws looked really nice, I can't justify either for just experimenting.

I checked stus, hida, suzuki tool and ebay and didn't come up with much.

Dave:

I can see what I can find over here and lend it to you for your scientificy testing. Let me know. How big do you want? Straight handle, diagonal handle, or bent tang?

Stan

[David Weaver]

Stan, no need to go out of pocket. I'd be looking for something that can rip 4/4-8/4 lumber, but shipping costs of anything big back and forth to japan is pretty prohibitive.

I'll keep my eyes peeled on ebay, big vintage used rip saws show up sometimes. My wants center on something you can really crank on (as in, something where a user who prefers ripping by hand may say "this is really nice enough that I will rip by hand over using a machine given the choice between the two", so maybe I'll be able to find something with a diagonal handle on ebay.

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks, Wilbur, that might be the photo I remembered as a video.

David, that's about a 400 mm rip kataba. Those are easily available on ebay with relatively inexpensive shipping from Japan, around $20. I've bought several to practice metate, and a couple of those turned out to be in much better shape than expected, cost around $30 each, useable out of the box.

When I get the time, I plan to video sawing with one of them to show the most productive approaches, but it will be a while, not tomorrow.

[Wilbur Pan]

Stan, no need to go out of pocket. I'd be looking for something that can rip 4/4-8/4 lumber, but shipping costs of anything big back and forth to japan is pretty prohibitive.

Stan, I don't know if you want to let me in on this, but I'd be willing to give it a try, and I'll cover the shipping costs.

[David Weaver]

Jack, I'll keep my eye out for them. I would *definitely* trade some time on my part reconditioning for price, same as I do for western saws when it's necessary.

The video will definitely be appreciated, no rush, and I don't mind being wrong if proven so. The wonderful thing about the forums is that if I am, a lot of people will learn from it.

I banged my head into the wall a couple of more times trying to find good rip videos on youtube or google last night, and I can't believe none exist, but rather it's a problem of most people no longer do it and videos of it are probably in kanji. I have no hope of finding them, because my MO of google translating a term and then dropping it into youtube never seems to get me what I want.

[David Weaver]

Stan, I don't know if you want to let me in on this, but I'd be willing to give it a try, and I'll cover the shipping costs.

Now we've got something productive going. This is why I like the idea of letting contentious threads continue, quite often something grows out of it because we all work a little harder to refine our point.

[Stanley Covington]

David, Wilbur, Jack

Morning here in Tokyo. I poked around on Youtube last night for videos with kanji headings, but couldn't find anything relevant. I suppose ripping a board is too boring to be a common subject for a video. I will look some more when I can.

I will also see what sort of saw I can find here in Tokyo. Worst case, I know the son of a passed-on sawmaker in Tosa that has a shed stacked to the ceiling with big saws. He would give me one if I showed up on his doorstep, but I can't ask him to dig one out and mail it to me. I plan to travel there in March or April on business, so it is still possible.

I will call some of my connections here in Tokyo this morning and see what is available locally.

In the meantime, perhaps something will pop up on Ebay or Jack or Wilbur will see something.

I don't know what kind of ripsaw you are accustomed to using, David, but assuming your back and legs and neck are up to the task, one with either a diagonal handle or a drop tang are far superior to a straight handle when it comes to power and control. Or at least that is my experience. This also matches what I have been told by living saw sharpeners who were active pre-war in the Land of the $5 Apple. I think Odate looks overhwhelmed using that long-handled kataba like he's pulling a rope. Couldn't keep that up for long.

We might want to have several guys use the same saws (Japanese and Western) for a series of rip cuts in the same species of wood for the same length and take the average. I will see if I can get a Japanese guy here to perform the same test (not US species) using the same saw and my D8. Not exactly scientificy, but it could be interesting.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Interim Report.

I am getting a formal introduction (probably today) to a Professor named Hoshino whom I have briefly met in the past. His studies include sawyers and saws, and the classes he teaches include these subjects. I have received strong assurances that he will be able to point me in the right direction to someone willing to sell me the sort of saw we are looking for. I am told he might want to get involved in our little competition. This might be fun.

I have made arrangements to have whatever saw I eventually procure sharpened professionally here in Tokyo. However, in the case of these older rip saws, I just learned from my metateshi friend and confirmed by an anthropologist who specializes in tools, it was not uncommon for only the first 12mm or so of ripsaw blades to have been hardened. When that was used up, the sawyer would take the saw back to the blacksmith for a refresher. So I will ask the metateshi to confirm the extent of the heat treatment to ensure we have enough hard metal for at least several sharpenings. The teeth will be fairly large and not that hard so sharpening in the States should be a snap.

But we need to reach a decision about the species of hardwood to cut during the tests (i.e. Hardwood: Red Oak, White Oak, Hard Maple, Soft Maple, Cherry, etc) and Softwood (Doug Fir, White Pine, Alaskan Cedar, etc) and the thickness and the approximate range of moisture content. I think the specs need to be tailored for wood that can be procured at each location where tests are to be conducted since it would be very expensive to ship boards all over the country. Another factor to consider is the length of the cut. I suppose the position/height/angle of the wood and sawblade can be left up to each individual. Any thoughts?

Regarding the saw, my thought was that approximately 400mm would be adequate. Any thoughts?

If I am getting too far out in front of the parade, just reign me back.

Stan

[Wilbur Pan]

Here's my two cents, based on what David has said in this thread and my experience in buying Japanese saws straight from the saw maker.

I'd just tell the source of these saws that I want a kataba that will let me make a rip cut to width in dry North American hardwoods in boards 1-2" thick and 4' long, see what they send me, and try it out. I'd stay away from specifying length, straight vs. diagonal handles, or anything else. Let the seller figure out what to send.

When I first tried to buy a high quality saw, I went back and forth over the tpi, and angles, and whatnot with the saw maker. In the end I finally realized that I didn't really know what I needed, so I just told the saw maker, "Make me a 210mm ryoba that will be used for joinery cuts in North American hardwoods." And the saw that I got was just perfect for that task. Given that none of us seems to be able to make efficient long rip cuts in boards, I think that pre-specifying any aspect of the saw would be jumping the gun.

(FWIW, I'd go with a 300mm kataba, based on my experience so far with a 300mm ryoba. We are talking about ripping a board 1-2" thick to width, so we shouldn't need a monster saw for this.)

If you really want to get as specific as individual species, I'd pick red oak. That should satisfy David's stipulation of a domestic species, and it's readily available at any home center. My other thought was to use American cherry, given David's recent project and ripping experience. I figure that a saw that can deal with red oak should be able to deal with cherry. But here I think we're getting too picky about the details.

One other thing: I might have been mistaken, but I was under the impression that Stan might already have a saw in hand that would be good for this project, or one that would be good with some tweaking. If this is venturing into making a custom order for a saw, we should discuss that one a bit more.

[Wilbur Pan]

I think Odate looks overhwhelmed using that long-handled kataba like he's pulling a rope. Couldn't keep that up for long.

I'm fairly sure that if Odate thought a diagonal handled saw would have been better for this task, he would have brought one. He also has done this demo several times for that woodworking show.

[David Weaver]

Here's my two cents, based on what David has said in this thread and my experience in buying Japanese saws straight from the saw maker.

I'd just tell the source of these saws that I want a kataba that will let me make a rip cut to width in dry North American hardwoods in boards 1-2" thick and 4' long, see what they send me, and try it out. I'd stay away from specifying length, straight vs. diagonal handles, or anything else. Let the seller figure out what to send.

When I first tried to buy a high quality saw, I went back and forth over the tpi, and angles, and whatnot with the saw maker. In the end I finally realized that I didn't really know what I needed, so I just told the saw maker, "Make me a 210mm ryoba that will be used for joinery cuts in North American hardwoods." And the saw that I got was just perfect for that task. Given that none of us seems to be able to make efficient long rip cuts in boards, I think that pre-specifying any aspect of the saw would be jumping the gun.

(FWIW, I'd go with a 300mm kataba, based on my experience so far with a 300mm ryoba. We are talking about ripping a board 1-2" thick to width, so we shouldn't need a monster saw for this.)

If you really want to get as specific as individual species, I'd pick red oak. That should satisfy David's stipulation of a domestic species, and it's readily available at any home center. My other thought was to use American cherry, given David's recent project and ripping experience. I figure that a saw that can deal with red oak should be able to deal with cherry. But here I think we're getting too picky about the details.

One other thing: I might have been mistaken, but I was under the impression that Stan might already have a saw in hand that would be good for this project, or one that would be good with some tweaking. If this is venturing into making a custom order for a saw, we should discuss that one a bit more.

Red oak is fine. It's readily available, cheap and it rips easily. Plus, as far as I've used it (and I haven't used a lot of it, admittedly), it doesn't vary as much in density as cherry. Cherry can be all over the board in the saw teeth, some feels soft and sometimes it feels waxy like a fruitwood, even different boards from the same purchase at a lumber yard.

I think Stan knows where there are a lot of old saws, not necessarily where he has to go to get a custom saw.

[Stanley Covington]

Red oak is fine. It's readily available, cheap and it rips easily. Plus, as far as I've used it (and I haven't used a lot of it, admittedly), it doesn't vary as much in density as cherry. Cherry can be all over the board in the saw teeth, some feels soft and sometimes it feels waxy like a fruitwood, even different boards from the same purchase at a lumber yard.

I think Stan knows where there are a lot of old saws, not necessarily where he has to go to get a custom saw.

I am not planning on having a saw custom made. It is of course still possible to do so, but it would be a $3,000 project and there would be wait of 6 months to a year. I should be able to buy/prep a high-quality older saw that will get the job done within a few weeks. I will try for tamahagane just for the fun of it.

I do have an old 340mm kataba rip saw that I am fond off, but it is a bit short for serious ripping. I would prefer another four or five centimeters. You guys probably have longer arms than me and so my thought was to procure a serious saw around 400mm, and not just a compromise saw sized for a carpenter to carry in his toolbag from jobsite to jobsite, which is what I see 340mm to be. Up to a point, a little longer than is absolutely necessary is far superior to a little too short, IMO. 300mm kataba saws can be had anywhere. I have an older one in NIB condition that I have yet to use in my toolchest, but that's no fun.

Since this will not be a custom order saw, the luck of the draw will affect what I am able to procure, but if you have a feature you cannot tolerate, let me know.

I will ask Professor Hoshino his thoughts, from a Japanese viewpoint (perhaps more from a historical and academic viewpoint rather than practical experience), on the ideal tooth configuration, length and handle for this application and get back with you. I don't know if I can find a tooth configuration ideally suited for red oak, though. The key thing I needed to know is species and thickness. I agree entirely with red oak. I would like you test the two saws on softwood as well. Are we looking at 6/4 to 8/4" dry boards then?

Stan

[David Weaver]

I think 400 is more useful, too. I am not tall (5'9"), but I do have ape arms and I like a 28" rip saw if I'm going to use one on a saw bench.

6/4 to 8/4 dry would be my preference. I like a 4 1/2 point rip saw for that stuff in western stuff, but as I described, if the rip is long in something 8/4+, I will sit down to do it so that I can do the rip in one shot without stopping. One arming a cut like that cutting stock for moulding in rhythm is beyond my level of fitness, and it presents work holding issues for me, anyway that my weight will solve.

I think standing on a board and pulling a japanese saw would be appropriately equivalent. The long boards that you can't put in a vise and cut are the ones that vex me the most. Those boards, especially 4/4 are trivial and cutting dead solid at the edge of a line or right through it to minimize planing is not hard.

[Stanley Covington]

(edited)
Stanley, thanks for explaining. I won't try it anytime soon, it was just curiosity. I'm nearly 100% sure the problem is in my technique, that's why I mentioned having it with both saws I tried. I'll do some practicing/experimenting later today.

On a practical note: I'm having trouble cutting a tenon with the Gyokucho 240. I'm attempting to saw tenon CHEEKS (edit, had written shoulders) in a hard maple 3/4 by 6 for what I will divide into two tenons. I gather this saw is not ideal for the wood, and the width of the cut might be a bit much for the saw, but it is what I have.

I think I should start over the very beginning again with the saw:
I have the board clamped vertically, end grain up, and am facing the narrow edge. How should I start the cut, on the far side or near side? What kind of angle? Any tricks to getting that cut straight across that 6" line as I start it?
Should I clamp it horizontally instead, I pull toward the floor? Anything else? Not sure what to ask.
Thanks

Fitzhugh:

Sorry to be so late in responding. The thread divided and I failed to pay attention to this branch.

Disclaimers follow.

First, when cutting tenon cheeks in hardwood, I would not use a crosscut saw. So I am assuming the Gyokucho 240 you are referring to is the ryoba, and you are using the rip blade. I wouldn't use a ryoba, but that is a matter of preference.

Second, when making rip cuts in hard woods (vs Hardwoods) I prefer a Western style saw like a Disston or LN. I find the less aggressive teeth and stiffer blade give me more control in rip cuts in hard wood. Moreover, when making short cuts (vs long rips) the sawdust thrown onto the layout lines bothers me as I puff away to keep the line clear. But this is my personal preference. I have a rip-tooth dozuki saw I had custom made that does a great job too, but in hard woods like maple, I do better work with a western saw. In soft wood however, nothing beats the speed and precision of my Japanese saws.

Third, since I assume you cut your tenons standing at a bench with the workpiece held in a vice, that is how I will describe this. But if working at a low bench while sitting on the floor, the process is of necessity quite different.

Now that the disclaimers are over, here is how I cut a tenon cheek using a Japanese saw.

1. Position the workpiece in the vice with the direction of the layout line perpendicular to the front edge of the bench at about elbow height (assuming I am right handed and the vise is mounted on the front left corner of the bench). This height will vary with the saw and the lighting. The workpiece is plumb. I know this because my benchtop is very flat and very level and I have quickly squared the workpiece in the vise using a square measuring off the benchtop.

2. I position my body so the "Plane" created by the cheek's layout lines on the 3 sides of the workpiece matches the line created by my shoulder and elbow when my right arm is hanging straight down at my side. I can move my body up or down, rotate it, grab the workpiece with my left hand, or lean forward and steady myself against the workbench with my left hand without any problems, but whatever I do with the rest of my body, this line must remain true. The saw is held like a small bird: hard enough to keep it from escaping, but not so tightly the little thing is crushed. I usually extend my index finger as I find this helps to keep things moving inside the plane. I might "waggle" the saw like a golfer with his driver at the tee to get any stiffness/rigidity out of my wrist. The saw does the cutting, I am just the machine. Anything I do will only interrupt the saw's journey in a perfect plane straight through the wood. I must rotate my wrist freely, but avoid the temptation to swing my elbow out violating the plane. When my eye is aligned with this plane, and the saw is in my hand, the machine is ready to start sawing. Then machine has no mind and will. The saw rides the machine. There is no waste, no unnecessary movement, no tweaking and no twisting in the machine.

3. I start the cut on the corner farthest away from me with the saw at a shallow angle. Guided by my thumbnail, I make 2 or 3 light strokes get things started. I stop. While it seems insignificant, this is the single most important cut in the process because it establishes an anchor point the rest of my strokes are guided by. But the goal is not to make a deep cut, just to make a little kerf at the corner.

4. With the sawblade resting inside this little kerf, and restrained or "anchored" by it, I then lower the angle of the blade and resume cutting, this time focusing on the layout line on the end of the workpiece. The goal is to create a straight, plumb, shallow groove to further guide the saw. So you can see I am breaking down the things I have to focus on, into smaller, easily managed pieces.

5. Once I have a nice shallow kerf the full length (and on the proper side) of the layout line, I continue the cut while gradually rotating the blade around so that it's nose is pointing more upwards. At this point in the process, my focus shifts to include both the layout line on top and the layout line on the front face of the workpiece. I drop my shoulders and bend over a bit to ensure the plane is properly maintained. At some point, the layout line on the top of the workpiece fades and I focus entirely on the front. This works because I already have a nice straight kerf on the end of the workpiece to guide the blade (so long as I don't get in the way of the machine and try to make it cut this way or that). When this cut is complete, I will have cut a triangular portion of the cheek beginning at the anchor point and ending at the shoulder layout line on the front of the workpiece. I have to be careful to not get so "zen" that I cut past the shoulder layout line.

6. At this point, I reverse the workpiece, square it up, clamp it in the vise, and cut the remaining triangle. Caution is required at this juncture because I know how easy it is to relax and let the saw get sloppy in the existing kerf. If this happens, the last triangle will stand proud of the intended finished surface on the cheek. A few strokes with a kiwa ganna or my L-N skew rabbet plane plane, or with a paring chisel (if it is a small tenon) cleans this up easily. When this happens, though, I chide myself for not paying attention because I have wasted time and added unnecessary work to what should have been completed perfectly using just the saw. This bothers me because I realize how a bad habit, if left uncorrected, can add up to days and weeks of wasted time over the years. It is unprofessional and something I would be ashamed for anyone to see.

This process is repeated for the rest of the cheeks. With practice, it goes very quickly.

You would be surprised at how few people can really use a saw proficiently. Some basic tricks you may find useful:

1. When you are developing or checking your stance and visualizing the Plane, it may help to hold the saw handle by the very end maximizing the distance from your hand to the cut. Any left/right elbow/wrist swing or deviation from the target plane becomes easier to see.

2. It may also help to try holding the saw pinched lightly between thumb and forefinger. This also helps you to see any L/R swing/deviation.

3. Do not lock up your wrist: It MUST rotate to keep the sawblade inside the plane. Actively and consciously rotate your wrist!

4. On practice pieces, lay out some lines, establish the Plane and make some test cuts. Pay attention to where your fingers touch your body at the end of each true stroke. When you have this worked out, bring your arm back on each stroke so you fingers touch the same place every time. This gives you a target to aim for.

5. Remember, the saw cuts because it is sharp and it wants to cut, not because you are powerful or speedy or will it to cut. Get out of its way.

5. Keep an abura tsubo (oil pot) close by. Mine is a segment of bamboo with a tightly rolled up T-shirt jammed inside and wet with 10-50wt synthetic motor oil. The T-shirt projects from the mouth of the container about 3/8". The oil and the container don't really matter so long as the container is not metal or ceramic or any material harder than your sawblade. I have used plastic water bottles cut in half. Occasionally swipe both sides of your sawblade on this to give it a light coat of oil. Too much is not good. This will reduce friction, and help your control. Don't worry, it will not weaken the glue bond so long as you do not use too much oil. I store my abura tsubo in a metal can in the workshop to keep dirt out, or in a plastic bag in the field.

I hope this helps.

Stan

[Wilbur Pan]

I do have an old 340mm kataba rip saw that I am fond off, but it is a bit short for serious ripping. I would prefer another four or five centimeters. You guys probably have longer arms than me and so my thought was to procure a serious saw around 400mm, and not just a compromise saw sized for a carpenter to carry in his toolbag from jobsite to jobsite, which is what I see 340mm to be. Up to a point, a little longer than is absolutely necessary is far superior to a little too short, IMO. 300mm kataba saws can be had anywhere. I have an older one in NIB condition that I have yet to use in my toolchest, but that's no fun.

I happen to have a 340mm rip kataba that I found on eBay a while back. I bought it specifically to see if I could use it for resawing boards, not ripping a board to width. To me, the tooth configuration is too coarse for easily making rip cuts to width in 4/4-8/4 stock. It's like using a panel saw for cutting dovetails. I haven't seen a 400mm rip kataba.

Which is why I was thinking along the lines of a 300mm kataba. I imagine 300mm kataba are easy to come by in Japan. (Not so much here in the States.) What is probably less available is a 300mm rip kataba with teeth tweaked for North American hardwoods, and in this case red oak. That's what I personally am hoping you can track down.


6/4 to 8/4 dry would be my preference. I like a 4 1/2 point rip saw for that stuff in western stuff, but as I described, if the rip is long in something 8/4+, I will sit down to do it so that I can do the rip in one shot without stopping. One arming a cut like that cutting stock for moulding in rhythm is beyond my level of fitness, and it presents work holding issues for me, anyway that my weight will solve.

I think standing on a board and pulling a japanese saw would be appropriately equivalent. The long boards that you can't put in a vise and cut are the ones that vex me the most. Those boards, especially 4/4 are trivial and cutting dead solid at the edge of a line or right through it to minimize planing is not hard.

Personally, I'm looking more to the 4/4-6/4 end of things. If I have to make a rip cut to width in 8/4 stock, I'm using my bandsaw, and 4/4 is what I would most commonly be using for my projects. Also, for the purposes of scientific inquiry, ;) I think most people who are thinking about using a rip saw, and even among hand tool enthusiasts this is going to be a minority, will be using it for 4/4 boards. It would be good to come to a conclusion that woodworkers are likely to put into practice.

My suggestion is to ask Professor Hoshino what kind of saw Japanese woodworkers traditionally used to rip long boards that were 1-2" in thickness to width without specifying the length of the saw, etc. Maybe put it in the context of making a tansu. Also ask him how did Japanese woodworkers set up the cut (put the board on low horses and stand on it, stand the board up and saw from the front, clamp it so that the board was on its side and work horizontally). This way we'll have the historic answer on the tools used and the technique, and not what our preconceptions might say.

Then go out and find one of those saws. I could be wrong about my idea of a 300mm kataba, and I'll go along with what the Professor says. But if the Professor says that a 300mm kataba was the way to go for this task, that's what I would use. Then have the teeth of the saw conditioned and sharpened for red oak, and we'll give it a try.

[Stanley Covington]

I happen to have a 340mm rip kataba that I found on eBay a while back. I bought it specifically to see if I could use it for resawing boards, not ripping a board to width. To me, the tooth configuration is too coarse for easily making rip cuts to width in 4/4-8/4 stock. It's like using a panel saw for cutting dovetails. I haven't seen a 400mm rip kataba.

Which is why I was thinking along the lines of a 300mm kataba. I imagine 300mm kataba are easy to come by in Japan. (Not so much here in the States.) What is probably less available is a 300mm rip kataba with teeth tweaked for North American hardwoods, and in this case red oak. That's what I personally am hoping you can track down.



Personally, I'm looking more to the 4/4-6/4 end of things. If I have to make a rip cut to width in 8/4 stock, I'm using my bandsaw, and 4/4 is what I would most commonly be using for my projects. Also, for the purposes of scientific inquiry, ;) I think most people who are thinking about using a rip saw, and even among hand tool enthusiasts this is going to be a minority, will be using it for 4/4 boards. It would be good to come to a conclusion that woodworkers are likely to put into practice.

My suggestion is to ask Professor Hoshino what kind of saw Japanese woodworkers traditionally used to rip long boards that were 1-2" in thickness to width without specifying the length of the saw, etc. Maybe put it in the context of making a tansu. Also ask him how did Japanese woodworkers set up the cut (put the board on low horses and stand on it, stand the board up and saw from the front, clamp it so that the board was on its side and work horizontally). This way we'll have the historic answer on the tools used and the technique, and not what our preconceptions might say.

Then go out and find one of those saws. I could be wrong about my idea of a 300mm kataba, and I'll go along with what the Professor says. But if the Professor says that a 300mm kataba was the way to go for this task, that's what I would use. Then have the teeth of the saw conditioned and sharpened for red oak, and we'll give it a try.

I agree with the need for some research before buying a saw. I succeeded in obtaining the introduction to Prof. Hoshino and confirmation that he is agreeable to discuss our little experiment. It is 22:00 here in Tokyo now, so I will call him tomorrow and see when he can meet.

Stan

[David Weaver]

I chose 8/4 because it magnifies any differences, but 5/4 or 4/4 would be fine.

I also would like to specify that we should be talking about a rip in the 6 to 8 foot length, because that's where someone who has no power tools is going to be challenged. Small cabinet pieces that you can put in a vise, no big deal either way. Longer boards where you're cutting stock for a moulding, something you might do on western woodwork only a couple times per quality project, that's where you'll get stuck.

I don't mind ripping on the bandsaw, but when it only takes 10 or 12 minutes to rip big and thick stock, and I need the exercise anyway, I'd rather leave a board stationary and cut it. Be a different story if I could get an assist from my wife holding the outfeed side of the bandsaw, but that doesn't happen.

[Eric Gracka]

OK, still would love any guidance, but while posting the above I thought about what I was writing. It occurred to me just how awkward I felt sawing up toward my throat when I started on the far edge, that led me to start on the near edge and pull down toward my bellybutton (as someone suggested). That made the motion feel right but meant I was trying to steer the far edge of the saw rather than the near edge. That alone made it difficult. I turned the board horizontally and started on the far end, making it so I was primarily aiming along the line I was actually pulling along. Still have to follow the other, but this changed the focus.

254584
EDIT: blue lines show where I was looking to steer. On left - one that didn't work - I was steering on the far side of the saw and starting cut on near side of line.

You've got the right idea:
1. Mark the cuts with a pencil or scribe.
2. Use a dojuki to score the cuts.
3. Use a ryobi to do the cut - it requires both hands on the saw, and concentration (one hand at the back of the saw, and the other near the blade).
4. Unlike Western saws, start at the back of the wood you're cutting, with the heel of the blade pointing down and pull.
5. Then continue as if you had a Western saw, but always concentrate on the pull.
6. As with a Western saw, it requires practise.

[Roderick Gentry]

1) Make sure the saw you have, and the stuff you are cutting are actually meant for each other. Presumably your saw needs to be more than twice as long as the board is wide.

2) Make sure you are using the saw correctly, starting on the right side, why is the handle so long, maybe it is designed for cutting at the feet, and not chest height on a vise. However, there doesn`t seem to be just one right way, judging by pictures. Anyone find some good Youtube instruction, even if in Japanese.

3) I remember an article in one of the mags about how much tuning is required if the saw is to fall in a straight line. Suffice to say, no saw I have ever had is tuned properly. Which probably explains why cutting joinery is no problem, but resawing is not all that workable.