Questions on getting western saws

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I am on a very tight budget and am making most tools - it's fun and I learn a lot more than by buying them. Saws are one of the tools I think I should buy, though I actually prefer to learn to sharpen and set them as I get to learn about the tools and their care. I have a saw vise and set I was handed down. I can get the files.

I have a decent dozuki and ryoba but want to try some western saws.
I find myself overwhelmed by the range of saws online. What should I look for in terms of teeth, length, etc. for each (rip, crosscut)? What should I look to avoid? Any recommended sources? How little can I spend and not get junk? It seems most from old tool dealers online are at least $75 and usually $100 up. I can't easily afford that since I have other tools and wood (and food, rent...) to pay for.

Do modern saws work OK? My only experiences with modern hand tools suggest they won't. I bought some cheap chisels from the hardware store - they're not awful but they don't hold an edge like the two good chisels I have. They're MUCH better than the awful 1/4" mortise chisel-shaped-thing I paid probably $5 for at the hardware store. Nice safe paperweight, that. No worries it will cut anyone, in spite of its shape. Same with the modern stanley #5 (made an OK scrub plane in the end).

I'm looking for general purpose saws here. For smaller stuff I find the Japanese saws work well.

I do have a bow saw a friend brought back from China I was given for ripping but I can't get it to track straight. I'll post a separate thread on that, perhaps I can tweak it with some advise. That, or a homemade frame saw replacement, might mean I just need a western crosscut and not rip.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[David Weaver]

Where are you located?

You want to find saws at flea markets and other such places to the extent you can. Otherwise, saws that tend to go for $25 or so on ebay in the early 1900s manufacture range are probably your best bet. Ebay is nutty for saws sometimes, though, and if a picture shows a very clean saw with great teeth and dead straight down the line, everyone else can see the same thing and make the same judgement about it as you can.

You need to be able to sharpen a saw if you're going to buy in that range, too. Maybe someone here will hook you up with something decent.

The stanley 20-065 that you can get at home depot, etc is actually quite a good saw for making a heavier crosscut. It's not got teeth that will leave a super fine finish on a board, but it will certainly give you the idea of whether or not you like a saw. A good western saw will likely cut a little slower, feel lighter and more nimble with good tension and taper and leave a nicer finish.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

David, thanks. I'm in Berkeley, CA.
I'd much rather buy a saw for $25 and spend a number of days learning to get it back in good shape, sharpen it, etc. than spend more and have one that works well right off. The difference in cost is less important than the learning.

This helps to hear because I had no sense of whether a lower price like that meant it was necessarily crap. I'll start looking and get an idea of what is around.

If anyone has a saw that isn't worth the effort to them to rehab but would end up as a decent user and wants to sell it, please let me know. I don't mind making a new handle or much else, as long as the blade is in such a shape as I could get it back in OK shape with effort. I shouldn't learn on a valuable saw in any case.

The stanley - That's about $25 itself. Good point about being a cheap way to see if I like them. If so, I'll move up over time.

[David Weaver]

Let me give you an example of the prices I've paid for rip saws, and the compromises in them were more aesthetics than performance:

26" D8 4 1/2 ppi - $25
28" D8 5 1/2 ppi - $15
28" #12 5 1/2 ppi - $65
28" richardson bros 4 1/2 ppi (not sure of number) - $80 (from a dealer, thus the higher price)
26" unmarked 6 ppi rip, but vintage with a nib - $3 (flea market - did have to buy a second $3 saw to rob the medallion from it)
26" groves 6 ppi rip - $32 (from the old FTJ newsletter sales, those seem to be dead and replaced with higher prices via the new owner)
26" atkins 53 converted to 8 ppi rip - $10

Every single one of the above came with all teeth, ever single one needed sharpening. If you are willing to learn to sharpen a saw, your options are much much greater and with a little patience you can get great saws that are complete (i.e., no hunting for saw nuts or anything) and that only require a quick clean up and a sharpening for $25 or less. If you have a decent flea market near you, maybe much less. My local flea market is frequented by a guy who has a booth there - he goes around before the market's open and buys anything good that's cheap, and then resells it. otherwise I'd have a lot more flea market buys.

As far as these $300 reconditioned saws that are listed, you don't need to get any of those. Ripping rough lumber is a physical task, you want a saw that's good and straight with sharp teeth, but all of the things that make a saw worth $300 to some will make no difference vs. a $25 saw that you recondition.

Look for a saw with a good full plate, all of the original saw nuts, good toothline that's either close to straight or breasted, no kinks and fairly straight. And look for stuff that's older without squarish handles. Some of those squarish things are good saws, but there's no reason to chance getting something that's a lot newer and softer than you think it is.

[Charlie Stanford]

You have a classic chicken or the egg problem with regard to sharpening your own western saws if you are essentially unaware of how a well sharpened saw should cut, or maybe I should say, can cut. There is no benchmark to which you can evaluate your efforts.

[Brian Thornock]

I have been to Habitat for Humanity's Restores in a couple of states and handsaws seem to carry a standard price of $3. My local one had a couple good old disston's for $3/each when I was last there. I only picked up one, but I hope to go again tomorrow. If you would like me to pick one up for you, I can, though you would have to pay the $3 plus shipping. I am not a big saw guru by any means, so I can't guarantee that it will the pinnacle of awesomeness, but I would be happy to look for you if need be.

[Nathan Wertman]

I would be very interested in that deal if the original poster isn't. I'm in basically the same boat and there are no decent saws at the flea markets/antique stores/habitat stores in my area anymore.

I'd say that you should definitely pick up the saw. Either the original poster or I will take you up on your offer.

[David Weaver]

You have a classic chicken or the egg problem with regard to sharpening your own western saws if you are essentially unaware of how a well sharpened saw should cut, or maybe I should say, can cut. There is no benchmark to which you can evaluate your efforts.

Charlie, you agree that the sharptooth stanleys definitely give you a bar to shoot toward, right? IME, they cut faster than an equivalent tooth count saw of any type that will have durable teeth (as in some goofy sharpener could put a very steep fleam on a saw to make it cut fast, but it wouldn't have practical durability).

I think it's a good idea to have one of those around, anyway (the hardware store saws). Every piece of wood someone cuts isn't going to be wonderful dry hardwoods.

[Charlie Stanford]

They do cut well, it's undeniable. I'm sure I'm blasphemin' the world but they even cut dry hardwoods pretty well. I breakdown oak and ash 8/4 turning blanks with one (rips and crosscuts) and I've got no complaints. They go where they're pointed and cut coming and going.

[David Weaver]

They do cut well, it's undeniable. I'm sure I'm blasphemin' the world but they even cut dry hardwoods pretty well. I breakdown oak and ash 8/4 turning blanks with one (rips and crosscuts) and I've got no complaints. They go where they're pointed and cut coming and going.

Yeah, they cut hardwoods fine, too. They have all the feel of a piece of steel roofing, but they definitely cut well.

[Brian Thornock]

Fitzhugh and/or Nathan, I assume you guys are talking about panel rip saws, correct? I'm hoping to go tomorrow, and will take a look to see if there is anything decent.

[Charlie Stanford]

Yeah, they cut hardwoods fine, too. They have all the feel of a piece of steel roofing, but they definitely cut well.

A purposeful firmness....

[Nathan Wertman]

Honestly, any decent saw (back, panel, tenon, rip, crosscut, etc) would be what I’m looking for. Pickings are really slim around here and I trust a fellow Neanderthal trying to help me out over an eBayer trying to make a profit. I’d love to be able to afford a dealer or a new high-end saw, but those aren’t in my current budget.

[Jim Koepke]

You have a classic chicken or the egg problem with regard to sharpening your own western saws if you are essentially unaware of how a well sharpened saw should cut, or maybe I should say, can cut. There is no benchmark to which you can evaluate your efforts.

Sometimes this is a good point, in this case Fitzhugh mentioned:
Saws are one of the tools I think I should buy, though I actually prefer to learn to sharpen and set them as I get to learn about the tools and their care.

With sites like vintagesaws.com and norsewoodsmith.com and right here on SMC to help, it should be a great experience for someone with the will to do it. Especially in the Berkeley area there are lots of yard sales, estate sales and maybe even a few deals to be had at the flea markets. (The Berkeley area was where most of my life was spent before retirement.)

The "well sharpened saw" is a different animal for different people and uses. For some, a 5 ppi filed rip saw with 5º rake might not work. Some will find a rip saw with 10 ppi and 9º rake a dream saw while others find it too slow.

The beauty of buying a bunch of cheap saws and filing them yourself is to make your own benchmarks. Sure, maybe my woodworking experience has had a few hard knocks, but it didn't stop me and has educated me well beyond where only buying a premium tool or perfectly sharpened saw would have taken me.

So Fitzhugh, you have my applause that you are willing to take on such a project, your reward will be your education and understanding of what you like in a saw, not what works for someone else.

Look for some used saws with straight plates. Brass saw nuts and medallions usually indicate pre WW II, but not always. Check sites like:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/
http://disstonianinstitute.com/index.html
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/

To learn more about saws.

Don't be afraid to buy a newer saw if it is only a dollar or two. If nothing else it can be your file training saw. One that was bought many years ago for my son when he was young has just recently been sharpened again as a firewood saw. If nothing else, it could be sold when it is no longer wanted, not likely.

Most of all, have fun and learn,

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

You want to find saws at flea markets and other such places to the extent you can. Otherwise, saws that tend to go for $25 or so on ebay in the early 1900s manufacture range are probably your best bet.

You need to be able to sharpen a saw if you're going to buy in that range, too. .

+1 to David's comments. Regardless of the source, the saws made by Disston, Atkins, E.C. Simmons (Keen Kutter), Simonds, and many others from around 1870's through ~1945 really were the best hand saws ever made which is the reason they're still in demand today.

With a good basic nest of 3 hand saws you can do 90% of most woodworking. I would suggest 7-8 PPI crosscut saw for breaking down rough stock, at 10-12 PPI crosscut saw for finish crosscuts of furniture components and a 4-5 PPI ripsaw.

IMHO, it's always best if you can see and touch a saw in person before buying, which I know can be tough in California were vintage hand tools are not as prevalent as other parts of the country. David suggestions about what to look for an eBay are also right on target, the only challenge is the pictures and descriptions don't always accurately describe what you're getting.

The main things I would suggest you look for are:

1) A straight plate -- a slight 1/8" of a bend all along the plate is not a problem, but a dent, sharp bend or kink can make it tough to track accurately to the layout line, is more likely to catch and further damage the sawand it's pretty much a dealbreaker for anyone who isn't comfortable using a hammer and anvil for straightening.

2) A straight or convex (breasted) tooth line without any broken teeth. I tooth line that is concave or uneven will make it harder to accurately joint, profile and sharpened the teeth so they are are all in alignment, especially if you're just getting started. More than 2-3 broken teeth can be a sign of brittle steeland frequently these teeth will always break off when you try to set them.

3) A stiff, well tempered plate. You should be able the bend the plate in a semicircle in both directions and have it return to being straight. If the plate retains the curvature or is real "whippy" vs. stiff I would keep looking.

4) a relatively wide plate (which can vary depending on the model from 4 inches to 2 inches at the tip). If the tip is less than 1 inch wide, somebody like it because it's obviously been sharpened a lot, but probably doesn't have much life left.

5) you don't need a bright, shiny finish on the saw plate -- those attract collectors, drive the prices up and really don't affect performance at all. Black or brown rust is fine (you are going to sanded smooth anyway) as is staining or discoloration. You want to avoid any pitting larger than a dollar bill near the tooth line as it can affect the structural integrity in cutting edges of the teeth. In general, a little pitting is fine and IMHO overrated in importance.

Vintage saw manufactures are just like anyone else, they try to distinguish their premium models. Look for saw totes that are rounded in hand shaped, as compared to blocky, square handles that are obviously machine cut (less comfortable and more likely to be from the 1950s or later when hand saws in general were much poorer in overall quality than previously). Chip carving or embossed designs on the tote are also typical of premium models.

Fitzhugh, whatever saw you get, sharpening is vital. Here's a link to Pete Tartan's website "vintage saws.com" that has an excellent primer on how to sharpen a saw (along with lots of other great information about hand saws).

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=main&right=/library/library.html

Good luck Fitzhugh, using a well tuned handsaw will make a world of difference in your work and I think you'll find that the time and effort you invest in learning to sharpen is well worth it.

All the best, Mike

[Jared McMahon]

The prices I've paid and variety I've seen is solidly in line with David's earlier post. Most of mine have come from antique/junk shops or flea markets. I got a Keystone K-4 (Disston second-tier make) for $1 on eBay simply because it was the minimum bid and nobody else bothered. The only saw I've paid good money for is one I never plan to use, it's an older looking table saw stamped "J. McMahon, London" that I bought as a vanity purchase.

I'll go out on a limb and give some rough criteria for things to look for in a junk shop saw:
- Is it pretty much straight? Or if kinked, only at the tip?
- Is it missing no more than a handful of teeth? A few gone aren't a deal-breaker.
- Is it thicker at the tooth line than at the top side (taper-ground)? Generally a good sign.
- Is the handle blocky and junky looking? Or more ornate? Ornate isn't a guarantee of quality, but it points toward it.

I'll also say, don't be afraid to mix and match. If the saw plate is good, you can make a replacement handle. If a $5 saw is bent like a pretzel and has a handle that looks like it's been used as a dog toy, it's still a good deal if it has saw nuts you can scavenge and re-purpose.

I recently did an inventory and I have more saws than I can reasonably justify. If you want to PM me your info, I can mail you a couple.

[David Weaver]

Oh yeah, I forgot one. A huge 3 1/2 to 6 ppi variable very old bakewell rip saw that was on ebay for $6 (as in it pretty much gradually goes from 6 at the toe to 3 1/2 at the heel). I would love to find a proper sunken medallion for it. Some jerkazoid ripped the medallion out of it and I've never seen another one.

I don't have all of the saws I listed earlier, either. Just a typical price list. I've found my favorites and am pretty much done with it. It's up to everyone to do that on their own, I guess. For working saws, it's nice to have a couple that you like, they're a lot like razors to me. If you keep an eye on the edge (or teeth in the case of saws), maintenance is little and pleasure is lots.

[Christian Castillo]

PM sent to you Fitzhugh, I live in Hayward and I can set you up with saws that are guaranteed winners ( straight, wide plate, teeth in tact and well shaped, early 1900s Disston 7 or 12s).

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

This is a fantastic source of information, thank you all! It's taken the mystery out of how to start, made it no longer a black box. Of course I have to do the real learning by hand and feel, but that part is fun.

Brian and Nathan - I'll let Nathan take it for the simple reason that he asked first, plus I already spent my woodworking funds this month and might have to sleep in the workshop if another package with a pointy piece of metal arrived in the mail. Thank you for the offer. I agree with Nathan, I'd much rather get one from someone here than on ebay.

A few months ago I saw maybe 10 saws at the local construction and everything else reuse depot but realized I had NO idea how to even begin parsing them out. This info - the price ranges, things to check, sources on learning more and sharpening info, offers to send saws - it has made it seem within reach.

Thanks!

[Mike Allen1010]

Fitz, you should consider taking Christian up on his offer- he's in your area and he really knows his saws