Fractions drive you nuts? What about "The Bob"?

[Dan Forman]

Have any of you ever heard of the newest measuring unit: The Bob? Check out this website, or the last article in June's Popular Woodworking magazine (yes, it's finally in the store). The site doesn't support Safari, so Mac owners are out of luck, will have to read the article. I have no connection to either the magazine or the product described.

http://www.bobsrule.com/

Any comments?

Dan

[Jim Knauss]

That's differant all right. My problem is remembering what I just measured, so I could screw up with ANY measuring system......... :)

Jim Knauss

[Dan Forman]

Have any of you ever heard of the newest measuring unit: The Bob? Check out this website, or the last article in June's Popular Woodworking magazine (yes, it's finally in the store). The site doesn't support Safari, so Mac owners are out of luck, will have to read the article. I have no connection to either the magazine or the product described.

http://www.bobsrule.com/

Any comments?

Dan

[Mark Riegsecker]

Maybe because it's 4:30 in the morning or something "bobs" in the morning I don't get it. Don't we divide the inch adequately enough into sections?

And I don't agree with him on the metric system I use it at work and think it's a very good numbering system.

[Tim Morton]

Have any of you ever heard of the newest measuring unit: The Bob? Check out this website, or the last article in June's Popular Woodworking magazine (yes, it's finally in the store). The site doesn't support Safari, so Mac owners are out of luck, will have to read the article. I have no connection to either the magazine or the product described.

http://www.bobsrule.com/

Any comments?

Dan

Most mac owners have switched over to Firefox...and the site IS supported by Firefox:cool:

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I saw that in a magazine as well! Looks like a really cool system to me! :)

[John Hart]

Ya know, I think I get what Bob's trying to accomplish...Makes me want to re-label all my sockets and wrenches. 'Course, it reminded me of a 100' measuring tape I have that is divided into 10ths of feet instead of inches. When I was re-landscaping my yard, I wrote down all the measurements but sometimes I read the tape in inches and other times as 10ths of feet. Have you ever had a crooked yard? :o

[Darren Ford]

Tim, I've never had a Firefox Mac user hit my website, they all use Safari, with a couple of IE, and an occasional OmniWeb. I didn't even know Firefox was available for the Mac! Looks like I need to test with it... The good and relevant information from this woodworking forum will never stop amazing me. Thank you!

[Bill Simmeth]

Interesting. I like the basic premise, but what happens when I want to drill a 7-Bob hole? :confused: And how do I account for the 5/32" kerf of my saw blade? Retooling is what killed the adoption of the metric system in the US...

[John Hart]

...And how do I account for the 5/32" kerf of my saw blade? ....

That would be what is known as "A Lil' over 3 Bob" :rolleyes:

[Martin Shupe]

I thought this was a great idea, until I went to his website and looked at the prices of his rulers. I am confident that unless his pricing structure changes, the Bob will not become a well known unit of measure.

[Frank Pellow]

I am wondering whether or not the guy is really serious. :confused: Metric is much better than what he is proposing and metric is already well established in the world (except in some small pockets where people resist changes just because they are changes). His claim that metric is not good for larger units is nonsense.

[Richard Gillespie]

I can work with fractions with no problems what so ever. My father and the Sisters of Charity beat that into me 50 or so years ago. Converting fractions to decimals works well also. Working in a shop with Italian built dedicated mortising machine and a dedicated tenoner, taught me to use the metric system and do ASA to Metric conversions. Speaking for myself only, I don't need or want a third system to remember. I don't care if the English can build a better ruler (I like our presidential system better anyway). :rolleyes:

[John Renzetti]

The system looks interesting, but I've switched over to metric and found that to be a lot better. I still have the rules that I use in both english and metric for reference.
take care,
John

[Darren Ford]

Its nothing new to impose an alternate system ontop of one we already know in the interest of convenient measurements for a specific task. Anyone in the print industry does this every day (those nasty points and picas we sometimes hear about).

I think Mr. Bob has some interesting points, and some lame ones as well. Acceptance is always the problem, even a vastly superior system (and I'm not convinced this one is) is difficult to learn for those of us it would benefit most (absent minded woodworking hobbyists).

Plus the name stinks -- No offense to any Bobs here (or Roberts for that matter), its a fine name for a person, but not a unit of measure.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I am inclined to think that Bob may have inhaled when he was younger.

Seriously though the Metric is an excellent measuring system, and as to the issue he has with 1/16's and such, well I would suggest that anyone who is inatterntive will make the same mistakes no matter what system they use, including Bob's.

[John Stevens]

Metric is much better than what he is proposing and metric is already well established in the world (except in some small pockets where people resist changes just because they are changes). His claim that metric is not good for larger units is nonsense.

Well said, Frank. Since switching to metric a couple months ago I've found that in practice there's no difficulty dividing metric measurements into halves, quarters, etc. Quite the contrary, I don't miss adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing fractions at all. Moreover, I find the system of measurement is often irrelevant, since I prefer to use a compass and measuring sticks instead of numerical measurements whenever possible.

[John Hart]

I've rethunk my position on this. I don't like Bob's idea. It doesn't accomplish anything except to create a market for Bob's stuff. When I get right down to it, I don't have any trouble measuring or calculating that would be resolved with a new system.

Sorry Bob...I'm going to have to pass on the Bob....it feels like a gag.;)

[Sam Blasco]

Pretty cool. I have always preferred the base twelve system to straight metric, though I work with both. Much easier to add, subtract, divide and multiply in my head than metric's base 10. And Bob'srule takes it a bit further. Interesting, probably won't catch on as I type on my qwerty keyboard, attesting to the fact that the system that survives wins, not necessarily the best system. But that doesn't mean you can't use it for yourself, especially if you are a one man shop, with no employees to communicate with. And it's not that different that you wouldn't be able to communicate basic dimensions with contractors, subs and clients. As for the name, is it any more or less ridiculous than foot or yard. How many feet do I have? How big is your yard? It's just what we get used to, right. And any change can be scary when you are seemingly secure where you are right now. Interesting stuff and bravo to Bob or whom ever came up with the Bob.

[Jamie Buxton]

The guy's got one thing right -- that using fractions is a bear. However, his solution is silly. There's a much better solution that doesn't require inventing anything: decimal inches. That is, you see measurements like 17.36 inches. American machinists have used decimal inches for a couple centuries. Decimal inches have the advantage that it uses inches, a unit we all know, while using decimals, where math is easier than with fractions.

[Jon Olson]

Fun thought for this wednesday morning. BUT alas it will never catch on.
Even the ease of metric has to be a personal choice. I'm slowly converting over. Metric - no decimals, no fractions. Whats next, buying your wood in board "Bobs" :)

Jon

[JayStPeter]

I'll go the other way. I kind of like it. 1/3rds are always the thing that get annoying in either metric or SAE.
I think there is good and bad with all 3 systems. I do like the idea of metric. But, I agree with Bob about splitting it evenly. There are lots of construction situations where you'll get 0.333333 or 0.16666. Even a 0.25 can be aggrivating in metric. Having fractional measurements makes that much easier.
I will tell you one thing. I don't want to have to buy ANOTHER set of wrenches and sockets in bobs. :D

Jay

[John Keeling]

Course if we broke the inch into 10ths, 100th and thou so that we had 0.1, 0.15, 0.001 etc it would be easier too. We talk about thou regularly, you just have to sit through one of David Charlesworths videos where he talks about thou shavings all the time and taking off a thou at a time. But this really doesn't work so well unless you have a feel for how many thou there are in 1/32"! If he started talking about 1/40th of a millimeter would you have any idea of what that was? I wouldn't!

The problem as I see it, is one of consistency... decimals or fractions, adding 24ths does just that, ADDS to the confusion. Or at least it does mine... And I learnt SI in school in UK before coming to the 'New World' and switching back to old units... so I think i'll stay with my mix of fractions and the odd decimal thanks.

John

[Greg Mann]

He's a couple hundred years too late to save fractions. We still use them in woodworking, carpentry, and cooking but not a lot else. Fractions have some intuitive things going for them, like for scaling up and down, but are less effective in a digital world with a base ten counting system.

Metric or inch? Simple. Just purge your shop of one measuring system and the remaining one will seem natural in a couple weeks.

Greg

[JayStPeter]

He's a couple hundred years too late to save fractions. We still use them in woodworking, carpentry, and cooking but not a lot else. Fractions have some intuitive things going for them, like for scaling up and down, but are less effective in a digital world with a base ten counting system.

Metric or inch? Simple. Just purge your shop of one measuring system and the remaining one will seem natural in a couple weeks.

Greg

I don't think it's so simple. I think going metric in the US means lots of conversions. Drawer slides and BF for example. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I've worked in the avionics industry which does design in metric. There is also arguments to be made that there's plenty of metric hardware from Europe that needs conversion to get to inches.
I think the construction industry would be tough. It would be a total retool. I can't imagine building a house (or even a deck) in the US using the metric system. My deck is going to be 18' deep. That means I'll need 2 10' boards to span it and 3 6' railing sections. Just imagine all the conversions I'll be making for my 550cm deck. Let's see, subtract 3.81cm for the nominal thickness of the a 5x board ... Plus, what happens if you go to the county to get approval for a new deck with metric dimensions :D

Jay

[Darren Ford]

Jay, that day might not be that far off. When we are getting all of our lumber from China we will use whatever dimensions they give us. Some plywood is already in metric.

[Greg Mann]

I don't think it's so simple. I think going metric in the US means lots of conversions. Drawer slides and BF for example. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against it. I've worked in the avionics industry which does design in metric. There is also arguments to be made that there's plenty of metric hardware from Europe that needs conversion to get to inches.
I think the construction industry would be tough. It would be a total retool. I can't imagine building a house (or even a deck) in the US using the metric system. My deck is going to be 18' deep. That means I'll need 2 10' boards to span it and 3 6' railing sections. Just imagine all the conversions I'll be making for my 550cm deck. Let's see, subtract 3.81cm for the nominal thickness of the a 5x board ... Plus, what happens if you go to the county to get approval for a new deck with metric dimensions :D

Jay

My reference to conversion was for us hobbiests in our one-man shops. I agree with you about the rest. Metrication is a monumental undertaking with all kinds of hurdles, including socio-political ones (the toughest IMO). As a machinst I have seen this unfold over the last 35 years. Our largest customer is about 95% metric but continues to shoot itself in the foot over fasteners, and they are not the only one. If the automotive and commercial vehicle markets can't get it done how can the rest of us?

FWIW, I have not taken my own advice. Since I need to be bilingual at work, it does not bother me in the shop at home. To address the 'bob' issue, I find myself using inch decimals quite often. I am far more likely to write 1.5" than 1 1/2". A 'fat half inch' becomes .51 or even .505. Same for 'thin'. Transferring dimensions by direct measurement ala story sticks, dividers, etc. are great techniques when possible, but decimals beat fractions in spades.

Greg

[JayStPeter]

Our largest customer is about 95% metric but continues to shoot itself in the foot over fasteners, and they are not the only one. If the automotive and commercial vehicle markets can't get it done how can the rest of us?

Greg

I wish that were the case. My '98 Ford truck is mostly metric. But, I still find fastners that require SAE wrenches. The speaker bolts are 1/4" for example (one that is obviously between any metric wrenches I have). I'd love to be able to carry one set of wrenches out to work on my vehicles.
But, I agree with you otherwise. I should buy some decimal inch rules also since I have a tendency to fall into using decimals also. The conversion back to the nearest fraction is sometimes tougher than just sticking to fractions :)

Being that my current project is a Deck, it had occurred to me that the Bob would work well in the construction trade. Especially when I wanted to put 4 evenly spaced beams and had to divide by 3. The notion of not yelling fractions to your buddy is also appealing. I don't really think it would help as much in the shop though.

Darren,
Frankly, I think China will be happy to provide us with 2x4x8s instead of metric dimensioned lumber.

Jay

[Chris Padilla]

Well, he has a good and interesting point about the divisibility of a base-12 system but if the US continues to largely ignore the metric system, I doubt this has a prayer to catch on.

I would be nice to finally convert fully to the metric system. It is happening but very, very slowly.

[Greg Mann]

I wish that were the case. My '98 Ford truck is mostly metric. But, I still find fastners that require SAE wrenches. The speaker bolts are 1/4" for example (one that is obviously between any metric wrenches I have). I'd love to be able to carry one set of wrenches out to work on my vehicles.
Jay

Jay, we don't disagree on this. It annoys me to need both sets of wrenches too. You buy a vehicle and need to do something, what is the first question? Is this thing metric or inch? So you look at the bolt head and you dont know if it is 1/2 or 13mm, 10mm or 3/8, 7/16 or 11mm. I know you've been there. I could always tell 7/16 from 1/2 but the metric equivalent thrown in just drives you nuts. Then you remove a socket head screw with a 5/32 allen wrench, which is .0001" different than a 4mm. What have you got in your hand, a metric screw or an inch? Helps to know who made the product, but only a little. Jay, I was not defending the practice of mixing standards at all. We agree on all points.

Greg