Full Spectrum Lasers

[Jeffrey Ruzicka]

I'm looking for a laser to get into this with as a hobby/small business and someone suggested Full Spectrum Lasers 40w hobby laser. I'm wondering, does anyone have experience with these or other FS Lasers? Would this a good route to take or something like this be very limiting? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Walt Langhans]

Full Spectrum lasers are repainted and sometimes doctored Chinese lasers. If your willing to take on the work to get one imported you can get the same machine for less. Although I have no personal experience with Full Spectrum, pretty much everything that I have read here on the forum says their customer service is terrible. If you don't want to import the machine but are looking around the same price range and product as Full Spectrum you should check out Hurricane lasers, they are pretty much the exact same thing.

[Rodne Gold]

My advice is to avoid the k40/40w/hobby lasers like the plague. $499-699 ex china , up to $2500 in the USA , constructed using cheap parts , lots of reliability issues , lousy limited software , expensive repairs , limited/expensive/no support ... NOT AT ALL suitable for any commercial application.
As to getting into the business and advice on what laser .. read this board , search this board , the info is all there and is extensive.

[gary l roberts]

Just to balance the discussion, My unit has run fine, I have gotten good results and I spent a lot less money. No I don't run it 24 hours a day, its a hobby machine but it has paid for its self. Service has been good, response reasonable. And yes I would buy another unit from them.
This discussion reminds me of cars. I hate Chevy's ,love Fords, all cause I had one that didn't live up to my expectations or some dealer didn't do what I ( yes I not THEM) thought should have been done. Few companies have perfect records, I guess laser companies fall into that category. I'd be the first to say FS units are not the top of the line, but then again, I can't afford to live in Pam Beach , fly a private G5 Gulfstream, drive a Lamborghini, or own a TROTEC 300 (no I didn't win either). We all make cost benefit decisions everyday and hope they work out for us. This is no different. We buy what we can afford, within the guidelines we think we can live with and hope it works out well.
I can't afford a trotec, not comfortable with a direct import from china, and want someone in the states to talk to when it breaks or I get stupid........ So for ME, it has worked out. So if it turns on today, I'll think my 60 watts are every bit as good as yours and smile at the thought I got it cheaper. If it doesn't turn on, well I guess I'll trade it in for a something better OR at least different.

[Bert Kemp]

I would not ever buy another Full spectrum laser, just search here on them and read all the horror stories. Theres like 2 people who like them and the rest will tell the story. Mine just sits in a corner now unused . I've just written it off as a 2500 dollar mistake. I can't afford that lose but I can't afford to keep taking it back and paying for:mad: repairs that they should cover and won't , they tell you its your fault its not working right , they tell you hey its a hobby laser and you have to work on it to keep it running, they tell you they don't have time for you and your cheap machine. and if you don't believe me I have 100s of emails to prove it .:(

[Pete James]

We purchased a 40w machine from Hurricane Lasers and have had no problems with it. We have always been able to speak to someone when we call with questions. We highly recommend Hurricane.

[Dan Hintz]

I would not ever buy another Full spectrum laser, just search here on them and read all the horror stories.
Not to mention the ones that were removed due to them being attached to posts by the owner who has had his account deleted twice... it's a shame they were removed rather than locked as you got a real sense of his attitude towards customers (and this forum, in particular).

[Ray Beaty]

I have a Hurricane 60w and it is great and their support group is super!

[Dennis Rech]

I'm looking for a laser to get into this with as a hobby/small business and someone suggested Full Spectrum Lasers 40w hobby laser. I'm wondering, does anyone have experience with these or other FS Lasers? Would this a good route to take or something like this be very limiting? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I have had my 40 watt hobby laser for just over two years.
It works fine and has never had any real problems other than arriving rather badly out of alignment.
The machine is rather light weight and goes a bit out of alignment whenever I move it.
Good news is that it is light weight enough that I can move it easily and that now that I have the right small bits and wrenches, it only takes minutes to realign.
The Print Driver works with every program that I have ever used it with and I did not have to buy Corel and AutoCad.
Occasionally the laser goes a little berserk and vectors a line where no line should be.
Reboot and it works fine.
I suspect my old XP computer more than the FSE driver might be the blame.
The FSE cuts 1/4 inch acrylic and poplar at one inch every 5 to 7 seconds.
Mine has gone miles.
I use it for cutting quilt templates for my wife and her friends, jewelry boxes for girl cousins and gaskets for my antique airplane friends.
I also have a large CNC milling machine and before committing hours to milling out a stainless part, I spend a few laser minutes in acrylic to proof the layout.

I bought mine because I knew little about lasers and was not sure about committing a lot of money and then find out that I would not have a use for one.
Now that I have one, I cannot imagine living without one.
In my opinion, the FSE is a very good value.
It does pretty much everything that the much more expensive lasers do, but perhaps slower.
However, six FSEs costing the same as one American RF laser will probably do more work for the dollars spent.

As far as service, some of the brand name American units have great service.
However, it comes at $150 an hour and parts costs will buckle your knees.
As far as I can tell, FSE service comes free in that it does not exist.
Then again, if you offer FSE $150/hr, they may provide great service also.

If you are running an engraving business and have customers screaming for product, $150/hour will seem like a great deal if it is provided right now.
If you are making trinkets for your niece, being able to buy a new laser tube or power supply on Ebay for $150 and only waiting a week or two for it is totally acceptable.
It sort of appears to me that people that pay $2300 or a laser expect lifetime service, parts and support for free and that people that pay $20,000 for a laser think that their $2,000 a year service plan is a bargain.

So, would I buy another FSE 40 watt Hobby Pro?
Probably not.
Knowing what I know now, I want something at least 36x24 with 80 watts.
I would order directly from China and cuss the primitive software that comes with it every time that I use it.
Am I sorry that I bought what I bought?
Not at all. It has been great. I learned exactly what a laser can do. I have made hundreds of gifts and hundreds of really useful tools and templates.
When I get a bigger machine, I will lovingly give the FSE to a relative or friend who is into arts and crafts and tell them to have as much fun as I have had with it.
Lasers are really cool tools.
Dennis

[Mike Troncalli]

I have had a FSL 40W hobby for about 14 months now. It is the first laser than I have ever owned and I use it for my business. I have never had to call for service or repair so I really can't comment on other's who have had issues with their service department. I can only tell you about my personal experience. Out of the box, setup, some alignment with the mirrors and I was engraving within a couple of hours. I have days that I use the machine for 4 - 6 hours at a time. I have never in 14 months had a single issue with the hardware or software. I have already paid mine off with the work that I have done on it. I hope to upgrade within the next year to a bigger machine and I would consider FSL.

[Dan Hintz]

Occasionally the laser goes a little berserk and vectors a line where no line should be.
Reboot and it works fine.

It does pretty much everything that the much more expensive lasers do, but perhaps slower.

It seems it does more... like add in extra lines from time to time ;) Try telling a customer "Sorry I ruined your $10k guitar engraving with that extra line, but hey, all I had to do was reset the machine and the next one will come out fine." As you said, if you're doing inexpensive work or stuff you can replace easily, it's probably worth the risk... but you get more than just good service with the extra money on Western machines, you also get a higher reliability level in the work it produces.

[Wes Moore]

I have a highly rated Laser Engraver attached to a highly rated Desktop
PC loaded with a highly rated Graphics Software Package that produces
a glitch when engraving. To date the vendors have all pointed the finger
at the others' products as the cause. So much for getting what you pay
for. I have found a work around to this pain but have concluded just
because you buy the highly rated model does not necessarily mean your
highly rated service will provide resolution.

[Mike Null]

Wes

Have you posted that issue here?

[Keith Frank]

Anyone had a Front Line Laser Machine? Are they any good?

[greg lindsey]

All lasers have thier bugs, the difference is getting them fixed (support) and getting them back on line. I can't afford to be down for days waiting on parts or phone calls. My new Epilog 36EXT was engraving all over the place out of the box, within 15 mins of my call to Epilog support they called me back and had the answer, a set screw had come loose on a pulley during shipment. Back to making money. They are expensive, but my first EXT paid itself off in 40 days and my new one is 1/3rd of the way along in 3 days of operation. Get what you pay for ...absolutley.

[Paul Phillips]

As far as service, some of the brand name American units have great service.
However, it comes at $150 an hour and parts costs will buckle your knees.Dennis

Dennis, (or anyone) correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not sure where you are getting your info about US lasers from, but I only know of one that charges for support, (there may be others?) but if you read through the forum you will find many who have bought Universal or Epilog that as far as I am aware, do not have to pay for basic tech support, in fact just the opposite, they seem to be willing to go above and beyond the call of duty to help even those who have bought an old used machine for no cost, I've never had to pay any kind of fee, I call the Mfg, they help me diagnose the problem and they overnight the part I need, for the cost of the part.


people that pay $20,000 for a laser think that their $2,000 a year service plan is a bargain.
Dennis
I have never had to pay this for my Universal. I just don't want others seeing this thread and thinking that US made=$150 hr/$2000 yr support.


However, six FSEs costing the same as one American RF laser will probably do more work for the dollars spent.Dennis
Perhaps given enough skill and time to re-engineer the machines with workable parts it could be done although Rodney is the only one I've seen on here that has been successful doing this, and that with a different Mfg.
I hope this doesn't come across as angry, I'm just passionate about what I do. I'm glad you had a good experience with yours but as you said its was more of a hobby, for those of us who depend upon it to make a living every day, it's worth the extra cost and peace of mind. I hope you find the next one even more satisfying.
Paul

[Dennis Rech]

Dennis, (or anyone) correct me if I'm wrong please, I'm not sure where you are getting your info about US lasers from, but I only know of one that charges for support, (there may be others?) but if you read through the forum you will find many who have bought Universal or Epilog that as far as I am aware, do not have to pay for basic tech support, in fact just the opposite, they seem to be willing to go above and beyond the call of duty to help even those who have bought an old used machine for no cost, I've never had to pay any kind of fee, I call the Mfg, they help me diagnose the problem and they overnight the part I need, for the cost of the part.

I have never had to pay this for my Universal. I just don't want others seeing this thread and thinking that US made=$150 hr/$2000 yr support.

Perhaps given enough skill and time to re-engineer the machines with workable parts it could be done although Rodney is the only one I've seen on here that has been successful doing this, and that with a different Mfg.
I hope this doesn't come across as angry, I'm just passionate about what I do. I'm glad you had a good experience with yours but as you said its was more of a hobby, for those of us who depend upon it to make a living every day, it's worth the extra cost and peace of mind. I hope you find the next one even more satisfying.
Paul

Hi Paul,
This thread started with Jeffery's question, " I'm looking for a laser to get into this with as a hobby/small business and someone suggested Full Spectrum Lasers 40w hobby laser. I'm wondering, does anyone have experience with these or other FS Lasers? Would this a good route to take or something like this be very limiting? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!"
So please read the answer in the light of his question.

If he had asked, I have a bunch of $10,000 guitar engravings to do, should I buy a FSE 40 watt Hobby?"
I would have answered, "Heavens no, pay Dan Hintz to do it. He has a laser big enough to fit a guitar in it and if anything goes wrong with the engraving, he will buy you a brand new guitar."
Right Dan?

For what it is worth, I have only had the FSE line glitches with my old XP Pro computer. FSE says that you should have a newer operating system to guarantee compatibility with the latest FSE software.
I never have had any problems at all when running the laser on my Windows 7 laptop.

If great service means that the sales rep answers the phone and tells you which part to buy from him, FSE also has great service.
They answer the phone and will gladly sell you parts.
With a smile.
They just don't make free house calls.
They do give free software upgrades though.

3 or 4 years ago, when I first started looking or a laser, I found several used ones, usually needing some sort of unknown work with a owner saying that they just did not want to put any more money into the thing.
So I would call the various respective manufacture's reps in Seattle, or Portland or San Francisco and ask how much would it cost to have a tech come out and diagnose the machine and provide a quote to fix it.
The answer would usually be about $150/hour including travel time, with a three hour minimum and maybe hotel and airline expenses.
They would always add, "If its the tube, expect at least $5000 and that after it was fixed and checked out, that I could purchase an extended one year warranty for about $2000.
So, that's where those numbers come from.
Seems like someone on this board was complaining with vigor that Epilog (?) wanted $500 to replace a 4 line LCD.
With a FSE, $500 on Ebay will buy a new laser tube, power supply, three new stepper motors and 2 belts with enough left over for a 4x4 foot piece of acrylic (which will have to be cut down to 9"x14" to work on a FSE.)

I now have about 300 hours on mine, so that pretty much means that tube replacement costs will be well under a dollar per hour.
The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.
Likely, the life of the tube is equal to the life of the water pump.
We will see.

So is it a good deal for a hobbyist/home business user?
It has been for me.

Dennis

[Mike Null]

Caveat emptor.

[Scott Shepherd]

I now have about 300 hours on mine, so that pretty much means that tube replacement costs will be well under a dollar per hour.
The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.
Likely, the life of the tube is equal to the life of the water pump.
We will see.

While we're setting the record straight, the replacement tube for a 45W Universal is about $1200. I have a chart that shows their average life span and where they die. The average is 6-7 years before they drop off in power. So $1,200 for 6 years. I'll take that any day of the week. And that's not running 300 hours a year, that's easily running it 1000 hours a year of actual burn time.

Also, I just had a call from Trotec on Friday and they said "I'm from Trotec and I'm in the area and thought I'd stop by and look at your laser to see that everything was working okay." He did. Cost- $0.

[Mike Null]

For what it's worth, my Trotec is nearing 7 years old and has over 7000 hours on the original tube and nothing else has been replaced either. In other words zero down time in 7 years. In my opinion that's how you make money.

(the 7000 hours is very conservative figuring 20 hours per week--I run it more than that)

[Rodne Gold]

Caveat emptor.
+1+1+1+1+1+1

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Dennis,
thanks for explaining the prices, now I understand better and yes, I can see how they would want to pay $150 hr to come to you and diagnose a problem, and that would be daunting if you had no idea what the problem was, I pay that for my MultiCam CNC tech's, I just didn't want someone to think that you would have to pay that for phone support, and it's been my experience that in most cases they can diagnose the problem over the phone and walk you through doing the repair yourself (for the cost of parts). I did have Mike McKenzie stop by to help replace a belt once but I think he said he was already going to be in the area and didn't charge me for labor if I remember right.
Steve, that's not a bad lifespan when you think about it, hope mine last at least that long. My tubes have "relaxed" from 152 watts to 137 last time I tested. :-(
Paul

[John J Wang]

Not to mention the ones that were removed due to them being attached to posts by the owner who has had his account deleted twice... it's a shame they were removed rather than locked as you got a real sense of his attitude towards customers (and this forum, in particular).Wow, Deja Vu. A few years back there was a shouting matching in a machining forum involving a guy henry, why he should access to other people's 5 axis machine for pennies, out sourcing to china, and his phd. I remembered because one the machinist casually mentioned that he also has a phd in biochem or something in science field. that was a good one. Internet flame wars is fairly common, but what henry did showed his astute business nature. Not only did he get the moderator to delete his posts which were fairly offensive to the domestic manufacturers, but he also emailed people involved to request that they also delete their posts as well.

Fast forward a few years and again, that astute business sense is evident in the american flag graphic proudly draping over chinese made machines along with a smart marketing campaign.

To be fair, people do change, but in the mean time I'll be saving my pennies for a ULS or Epilog.

[Jarami Reid]

good point Wes

[Keith Outten]

http://www.thunderlaser.com/

Thunder Laser is a sponsor of SawMill Creek. I would think that it might be an advantage dealing with a company that is close to this Community provided they have a machine that fits your requirements.
.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Dennis,


The tube manufacturer says that the tube should last about 1000 hours as long as the current is kept under 20MA and the tube is full of moving water.

What tube rating is that for? 40 watt or a 60 watt?

Moving water is not quite the whole issue, it also needs to have no large cavities or airlocks that still allow water to flow but also permit hot spots to form. These days 1,000 hour tube life is pretty poor, EFR F2 series will run to 4,000 - 5,000 hours and the ZX series will go to 12,000 or so before failing. My last 80 watt EFR F2 had run 4,800 hours and was producing 71 watts at the time it was swapped out.
Tube life depends a LOT on how it is driven, how stable the current is and what the electrode / gas purity is like as well as the heat / cooling cycles it is expected to put up with.

RF units are higher quality when compared to Chinese glassbody units but when compared to tubes like the GSI SLC series they tend to come in a far rated second. Comparing a $200 Chinese Glass 40 watt to a $5,000 Synrad 35 watt is like comparing a $5,000 Synrad to my $25,000 SLC.

Lasers are an exact science, some of the junkpiles they get fitted into........aren't.

cheers

Dave

[Chris Fulton]

I went through the process of deciding what to by for my needs and just posted a review that details my experience. There are a lot of companies out there, but personally I took Full Spectrum off my list pretty early in the decision process. They seemed to have some neat machines and a nice video on Kick Starter but way too many bad reviews. When you pick a machine it's like picking a mate - you're stuck with their service (or lack of) for the life of the machine.

I chose Boss Lasers for my purchase and their support BEFORE the sale was one thing that sold me. I'd say call up the companies you are interested in and talk to them. That will give you an idea of what to expect.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I went through the process of deciding what to by for my needs and just posted a review that details my experience. There are a lot of companies out there, but personally I took Full Spectrum off my list pretty early in the decision process. They seemed to have some neat machines and a nice video on Kick Starter but way too many bad reviews. When you pick a machine it's like picking a mate - you're stuck with their service (or lack of) for the life of the machine.

I chose Boss Lasers for my purchase and their support BEFORE the sale was one thing that sold me. I'd say call up the companies you are interested in and talk to them. That will give you an idea of what to expect.

I don't think pre-sale support necessarily has anything to do with post-sale support. The reality is that time spent before the sale is how they justify their profit. They want your money and are willing to work for it. Once they have it, things change in many situations. Now any time they spend helping you is theoretically time they are donating to you. As a result, they are less and less likely to give you excellent support.

When you break things down, if you're selling an item that cost you $1000 for $1500, how many hours of support can you really afford to give? That's why I never understood why anyone would want to sell these $1000 junk lasers. The profit margin isn't high enough to validate the bad publicity and hours spent trying to help your customers.

[Jerome Stanek]

I don't think pre-sale support necessarily has anything to do with post-sale support. The reality is that time spent before the sale is how they justify their profit. They want your money and are willing to work for it. Once they have it, things change in many situations. Now any time they spend helping you is theoretically time they are donating to you. As a result, they are less and less likely to give you excellent support.

When you break things down, if you're selling an item that cost you $1000 for $1500, how many hours of support can you really afford to give? That's why I never understood why anyone would want to sell these $1000 junk lasers. The profit margin isn't high enough to validate the bad publicity and hours spent trying to help your customers.

FSL gets those cheap lasers for about $500 and sell them from $1850 plus shipping and then you have to buy the pump and air compressor according to their web site. That is a nice mark up for them. If you want the Retina engrave you will need to spend another $500

[Mike Null]

Pre-sale support??? That's a new one on me. I have always referred to that as a sales pitch. That some are more competent than others does not alter the fact.

Laser sales people, like other commission salespeople are money motivated. Their support quickly disappears once the sale is completed. Are there exceptions? Yes, very few.

[Jerome Stanek]

Pre-sale support??? That's a new one on me. I have always referred to that as a sales pitch. That some are more competent than others does not alter the fact.

Laser sales people, like other commission salespeople are money motivated. Their support quickly disappears once the sale is completed. Are there exceptions? Yes, very few.

One of the good ones is Scott from Rabbit Laser he not only supports his lasers he helps out with other brands very good guy.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Ray Scott has fast built a reputation of being THE man to go to in the US for Chinese sourced machines.

cheers

Dave

[terence thompson]

I see this thread is 3 years old, however, Full Spectrum is still in business. So my question is... has anything change? Any newer reviews? I hope to get a machine shortly, do I still need to avoid FSL?

[Art Mann]

At least some of their product is now sold by Rockler. I am speculating FSL they will have to maintain a pretty good level of service in order to continue selling through Rockler. If I bought one from Rockler and then got no phone support or slow warranty service, I would hold Rockler accountable for selling unsupported equipment. They are bound to know that.

[Lee DeRaud]

At least some of their product is now sold by Rockler. I am speculating FSL they will have to maintain a pretty good level of service in order to continue selling through Rockler. If I bought one from Rockler and then got no phone support or slow warranty service, I would hold Rockler accountable for selling unsupported equipment. They are bound to know that.Rockler knows that: it's probably the main reason they don't sell the CarveWright anymore. It'll be interesting to see how it goes with FSL.

[Bert Kemp]

Personally I would advise against buy anything from FSL my experiences with them was really bad and it would take more then a couple good reviews to sway my opinion .

[Clark Pace]

All lasers have thier bugs, the difference is getting them fixed (support) and getting them back on line. I can't afford to be down for days waiting on parts or phone calls. My new Epilog 36EXT was engraving all over the place out of the box, within 15 mins of my call to Epilog support they called me back and had the answer, a set screw had come loose on a pulley during shipment. Back to making money. They are expensive, but my first EXT paid itself off in 40 days and my new one is 1/3rd of the way along in 3 days of operation. Get what you pay for ...absolutley.

I had a k40 china laser printer. It was fun, but not really good for commercial use. It had many limitations. But it was fun. If you are a DIY person, and like to tinker maybe.

[Mike Troncalli]

That's where your information is old...

Between the new 5th Generation "Hobby" machine and the PRO series they have absolutly nothing in common with a K40.. Over the last year or two they have finally started getting the message... They have added to their customer service and tech department. Emails are usually answered immediatly or within a few hours. Machines under warranty are covered with both live and email tech support. Out of warranty machines usually require email support only.. But at least you'll get some..

They still have a little ways to go but a huge leap from 2 - 3 years ago... Rumor is that they are now working on a 6th generation machine at this time. Both the 5th generation and the 6th are designed and built here.. Granted some of the parts are off the shelf items, but that just means they can be replaced easily..

[Bert Kemp]

That's where your information is old...

Between the new 5th Generation "Hobby" machine and the PRO series they have absolutly nothing in common with a K40.. Over the last year or two they have finally started getting the message... They have added to their customer service and tech department. Emails are usually answered immediatly or within a few hours. Machines under warranty are covered with both live and email tech support. Out of warranty machines usually require email support only.. But at least you'll get some..

They still have a little ways to go but a huge leap from 2 - 3 years ago... Rumor is that they are now working on a 6th generation machine at this time. Both the 5th generation and the 6th are designed and built here.. Granted some of the parts are off the shelf items, but that just means they can be replaced easily..

pretty misleading statement, they are assemble here but 90% of the parts are made in China.

[Art Mann]

. . . and what percentage of Epilog machine content is US made?

[Mike Troncalli]

Not going to get into a pissing contest with you BERT.. I know you have an issue with FSL.. EVERYBODY KNOWS..... The question was asked " see this thread is 3 years old, however, Full Spectrum is still in business. So my question is... has anything change? Any newer reviews? I hope to get a machine shortly, do I still need to avoid FSL" .

I never said that the parts were or were not made in the U.S.A.... They are not an epilog, etc. etc... They are a hobby machine and the pricing reflects that.. I also spoke about better customer service and better support over the last few years. I guess I should have said designed and assembled here with both American and Chinese parts.. (so sorry)...

Where did your laser manufacturer get their tube, power supply, electronics?

and please don't bother sending me another profanity laced private message because we disagree....

Thanks

[Bert Kemp]

Not going to get into a pissing contest with you BERT.. I know you have an issue with FSL.. EVERYBODY KNOWS..... The question was asked " see this thread is 3 years old, however, Full Spectrum is still in business. So my question is... has anything change? Any newer reviews? I hope to get a machine shortly, do I still need to avoid FSL" .

I never said that the parts were or were not made in the U.S.A.... They are not an epilog, etc. etc... They are a hobby machine and the pricing reflects that.. I also spoke about better customer service and better support over the last few years. I guess I should have said designed and assembled here with both American and Chinese parts.. (so sorry)...

Where did your laser manufacturer get their tube, power supply, electronics?

and please don't bother sending me another profanity laced private message because we disagree....

Thanks

This never happened

Just for the record I just checked 7 pages of pm's 162 I sent and not one to Mike

[John Blazy]

Thanks to this forum, I switched from purchasing FSL to Rabbit, due to the reviews. I likely would have been fine with FSL - virtually same machines, but after finding out that Ray was going to personally deliver my machine, set it and my computer up, and install mirrors and lenses, how could I go wrong? I'm not sure if FSL would have sent a tech to set up their machine - perhaps an FSL owner can let us know. Ray did a great job, and I was up and running immediately.


Still in the honeymoon phase of owning my laser, but it has not let me down yet, and already paid for itself. First job was to cut an intricate stencil from 1/8" duron using the entire 35.5 x 47.5 table, cut lines all 1/4" apart - huge cut file, and no issues, no crashes. However, I knew that there HAD to be a catch for such low cost, and I found the catch - the honeycomb bed sagged in the middle over 1/8", and noticed it when cuts went out of focus in middle, but not on edges. Pulled out the honeycomb, and the aluminum wedged spanners were screwed in on flat, not on edge like clearly they should be. Obviously rabbit thought no one would notice. So I re-installed them correctly and the table is flat all across. If that is all I have to do to save $20K over a comparable machine, then I'm happy with that.

[Kim Vellore]

The point many are missing when comparing the cost is, one should not compare the glass tube machines to solid state, someday when the Chinese make cheap solid state lasers then we can get into who paid more for quality. There are many difference between the glass tubes and RF laser which I feel is worth the cost difference to me.

Kim

[David Somers]

Mike,

Just FYI if you werent already aware. FSL is now selling through Rockler Woodworking. One would think that Rockler, who is a fairly decent store, would not have done this without some confidence in what they were doing. Although I remain leery of FSL after their long weak history I have no direct experience with them and their deal with Rockler suggests some measure of improvement. (or not! <grin>) I might suggest though that you hold off on a purchase from FSL if you can and see how this partnership works out and how FSL's quality control and follow up is. If you need to purchase now I might be tempted to buy from someone with an established reputation like Rabbit or Boss or Automation Technologies. At least you know their reputations have been consistent over a fairly long period of time. Just a thought.

And at the risk of being repetitive....remember I have no direct experience with FSL. But in the year I nibbled at the idea of buying a laser I was put off by their reputation both here on SMC and out in the general world.

Dave

[Derek Tarvin]

I own both FSL and Epilog lasers so I'll put in my 2 cents...

(tl;dr version: They are different animals, so a comparison between any Epilog* and any FSL Hobby series machine is likely to be unfair.)

FSL
I bought a FSL 45W 5th Gen laser about 3 years ago. And another 2 years ago...
They are not bad for the money. They are good, but they are not an Epilog. The rasters are fine, and the vectors are good. I found that if you had really fine raster lines next to each other, it was often difficult to get consistent results. Between the stepper motors, the belts, and the bearings, they could get sloppy over time. Also, the glass tube laser can't really turn off and on fast enough in some cases. Cooling was occasionally an issue depending on the season. The fact that the bed couldn't be independently leveled was another thorn in my side.

The focusing on the FSL is... well... not quite a joke, but honestly, they could have done better. The roller adjustment on the x-axis rail - that gave me convulsive fits. Too tight and the head binds and won't move. Too loose and your rasters look bad. Finding the sweet spot feels like an accomplishment! Until the wheels wear down and you have to readjust.

But, these are pretty lightweight machines. The belts stretch. The bearings go bad. A lot. I was replacing tubes about every 6 months on each machine and power supplies about every year. Bearings lasted me about 3-6 months. The coating on my lenses would often flake off.

Also, the software/driver was rather slow. On some very complicated projects, the file could take 15 minutes or longer to render before the machine could be run. The software on the computer actually controls the laser head over the Ethernet cable while the job is running. That means that if the computer crashes, or if the ethernet cable gets jiggled loose, the job fails. (note: There is a way to load jobs on a microSD card on the FSL, but I never tried it - so that could solve this issue.)

Epilog
I bought my Epilog (40W Mini) last year.
It was expensive. I could have bought 4 of the FSL's for the price. The rasters are great and vectors are awesome. There really isn't a comparison in output quality of the tubes. The RF tube on the Epilog is so much better than the glass tube on the FSL. But, they also cost about 4 times what a glass tube costs. And here is where I am nervous about my Epilog. My original tube died at almost exactly 6 months. The replacement tube lasted 45 days. Both were covered under the warranty, so I'm not out any money yet. But, I sometimes worry that I'm running the laser with a $2000 gun pointed at my head.

However, the difference between the servo motors on the Epilog and the FSL mean that the Epilog is twice as fast as the FSL on rasters. On vectors, they are pretty comparable, but the Epilog will edge out the FSL.

The motorized z-axis and the fact that the bed can be independently leveled means that I can get more consistent results across the surface.

As for the software, it's nice and fast. I've yet to find a file that takes more than a 30 seconds to send to the machine. And that brings up another difference: the FSL is run "live" from the computer while the Epilog is run from the laser's memory. Specifically, the FSL can only hold 1 job in the software, while the Epilog can have dozens held in the laser's memory.

Summary -
My problem was that I started off as a hobby - which turned into a business. The FSL Hobby machines are not designed for the volume that I was running. So in the end, I had to step up to a better machine. And that is why I think that any comparison against any Epilog from the Mini/Helix series or higher is unfair. There is almost no overlap in the parts used between the FSL or the Epilogs. The tubes are different technologies. The bearings are different. The belts are different. The machine/bed structure is different. And... the prices are completely different.

A much fairer comparison in my opinion would be the FSL Hobby vs the Epilog Zing series. I think the FSL Pro series would stand up better to the Epilog Mini/Helix line. But, the FSL still struggles due to the glass tube technology.

P.S.
If I was buying another hobby machine (or if someone was looking for a hobby machine) the FSL 5th Gen Laser is still a good starting point. It will perform at 80-90% of an Epilog but at a much lower price point with tech support in the US. My only caveat is the Glowforge machine - I haven't used one yet, but they look like a really strong contender - *if* they pull off what they claim. And, that "if" seems to be pretty strong. They missed their December'15 shipping dates and are now projecting "first half of 2016" for the first machines to ship.


*The Epilog Zing series would probably be a better comparison to the FSL Hobby. Both use stepper motors and roller bearings. However, the Epilog still uses the superior RF tube.

[David Somers]

Derek,

I am just guessing, but regarding your Epi tube failure....is the power to the laser protected in any way? On a dedicated circuit? Or running through a voltage regulator first? Just wonder if you might be having some power issues affecting the life of the tube.

Dave

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Gang;
Of course I've got to put my two cents in this discusson- life would not be fun without a bit of controversy and dissenting opinions.
There are a number of SMC members who have been very happy and successful by going the Chinese laser route. Without question, Rodne Gold was the trailblazer down this road a number of years ago and most who followed him and used his approach have been successful. I, like Rodne and others, have owned or do currently own, both Western RF and Chinese lasers. Which would I recommend?- depends on what you are going to do with it. Unfortunately, I would venture a guess that most first-time laser buyers do not have a focused target market so want as much flexibility as possible, yet are constrained by economics ($)) and by failure to do adequate research on the relative and comparative features of both technologies.
I am not assigning blame here, it's the American way to accept the recommendations of others for everything from cars to electric knives- saves us plenty of analytical time and energy- besides allowing us to point the finger at someone else if the choice bombs out. There is no Consumer Report on lasers that I know of so we have to rely on our own research efforts or the advice of "acknowleged" experts such as many found on SMC. Too often, however, most rely less on their research and more on the advice of "experts". My friend Rodne said it best- if you want to buy a laser read the countless threads on SMC devoted to this subject - ask questions- and identify specifically what you want the machine for.
In summary, all I can say is that I have three Laserpro RF units and one Shenhui (Chinese) glass tube unit and none of the Laserpros have been turned on in the last two years- but then my business does not demand engraving the Lord's Prayer on a grain of rice.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Maria DeMott]

I did a ton of research and ended up with a Hurricane Laser -- right before they went out of business. I would recommend checking out Rabbit. If I could go back, I would definitely have gone with Rabbit instead of Hurricane or FSL. Rabbit has an excellent reputation for good service and support.

Just my .02

Good luck in your search!

[Bert Kemp]

Maria you do know this thread is over 3 years old :D and hopefully who ever started it has long ago found what they were looking for;)


I did a ton of research and ended up with a Hurricane Laser -- right before they went out of business. I would recommend checking out Rabbit. If I could go back, I would definitely have gone with Rabbit instead of Hurricane or FSL. Rabbit has an excellent reputation for good service and support.

Just my .02

Good luck in your search!