Push and drag back or pick up your plane?

[Mark Dorman]

I've always thought plane stops were a good idea; but if you drag your plane back they don't work very well. Light bulb comes on and plane stops work because you don't drag your plane back.

Question is; is the effort to (I'm currently planing 39" long red oak about 6" wide) pick up my #8 to preserve the blade less than the effort spent to keep it sharp if I drag it back?

[David Weaver]

Probably not. Do whatever keeps you working. If it's tiring to consciously lift the plane, then don't bother with it, just sharpen the plane when it needs to be sharpened.

Instead of lifting a plane, I usually let the toe drag. That's a reduction of effort without letting the iron wear when making a back stroke, and it doesn't require the rhythm killing that lifting the entire plane does.

One aside, if you're doing gobs and gobs of swipes with a big #8 on the face of a board, you might want to do some preliminary with lighter plane where there are problems...or a fore plane if the wood calls for it. The jointer and smoother should do little more than enough to remove the marks from a coarser plane.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Mark:

Your question was never a thing I thought about in the past - I was at the LN Hand Tool Event in Vancouver on the weekend, and Deneb
from LN was instructing another chap about not dragging the plane backwards, but tilt it slightly to the side on the back stroke so as to support the weight and not tire yourself out prematurely by having to lift several pounds up in the air every stroke.

I thought about it and that was what I was doing sub-consciously - just a fluke as no one ever schooled me that way.

FWIW - - - - - good luck !!

Dave B

[Tom Blank]

Christopher Schwarz has an article about dragging/lifting planes on the return stroke on the Popular Woodworking Magazine website today.

[Chris Griggs]

If my boards are clamped in vise I often drag my planes back. For plane stops I am more likely to lift it a bit so I don't pull the board off the bench when I pull the plane back..however, if you keep your soles waxed or are using wooden planes this isn't an issue nearly as much. Its one of the reasons I've come to favor my transitional jack as my main roughing plane.

RE: Dave Bs point. Deneb showed my that at a show once too. I've taken to using it some. He advocated this (turning the plane up on edge) not so much for edge retention or fatigue, but because lessen the potential for shaving stay under the sole and get backed up in the mouth...I have found that he is right.

[Don Dorn]

With all respect to Mr. Pulchaski, Frank Klausz advises to do that in his "Hand Tool" video of long ago. I make some effort, but don't worry about it a great deal as sharpening takes a minute or so and I haven't personally notiiced any appreciable degradation of the edge.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I think David Weaver is right on. Do what works for you. I also definitely agree with the idea that one plane sets up another. One of the things I really enjoy about planing is the relationship between the planes themselves. It's enjoyable to feel them working in conjunction with each other under your hands.

I tend to drag everything back except a smoother. I consider all my bench planes but the smoother to be varying levels of "roughing" tools so its not a big deal to me if they are dulled a little quicker or if they just aren't quite as sharp. I do give a bit more attention to the jointer so I don't make life harder on the smoother but not so much that I won't drag back on each stroke. I put a high premium on momentum and rhythm up until its time to finish with a smoother and at that point the premium shifts to patience and finish results and certainly edge retention comes into play here.

Again, it's whatever works for you. Try one way or the other and compare results. You may be sharpening more often or you may be planing slower. Something always gives but one will fit your taste better than the other.

[Mark Dorman]

I think David Weaver is right on. Do what works for you. I also definitely agree with the idea that one plane sets up another. One of the things I really enjoy about planing is the relationship between the planes themselves.

I put a high premium on momentum and rhythm up until its time to finish with a smoother and at that point the premium shifts to patience and finish results and certainly edge retention comes into play here.

Good stuff there and thanks for the input. I probably do over use my #8. Sharpening more is actually why I made a sharpening station about a step and half behind me when I'm at the bench. Convenience promotes use.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Convenience promotes use.

Well said.

[Jim Neeley]

One consideration, should you decided to drag the plane backwards (which I sometimes do):

Consider pulling the fresh shaving out from the plane before dragging backward. This prevents it from being drawn back down through the throat during the backslide.

Otherwise this shaving can behave as a wedge under the front (or one side) of your plane and may goober up consistent cuts on your next stroke.

Jim

[Mark Dorman]

A shaving getting pulled back in defiantly breaks your rhythm.

[Marco Cecala]

I cannot understand how all that force pushing has anything to do with the slight drag on the return. The blade undergoes much more stress during cutting that dragging the plane on the return is as easy as stroking a cat the way the fur grows.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I don't understand, either, Marco - but after surfacing a lot of rough lumber by hand during my bench build, and trying both ways a few times, I'm convinced dragging the plane back dulls the blade faster. Faster enough to really matter? No, I can just re-sharpen my tools. But I do try and not drag with my smoother if I'm trying to maintain the keenest edge I can there.

It's particularly easy to notice when you're scrubbing lumber across the grain with a cambered iron, because you're often making a lot of choppy strokes very quickly, so I get the feeling the plane travels more linear feet in a shorter amount of time than planing with the grain, making the effect noticeable quicker.

[Chris Griggs]

I don't think that it somehow wears the blade more than the pushstroke. Its just that it is additonal wear on the blade as the blade is rubbing on the wood when you pull it back and any additional wear will potentially dull something faster. Honestly, I've never paid attention to if or how much it effects edge longevity. I often drag my planes back, but the concept that it would wear the blade faster makes perfect sense.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Chirs is right on. If planing forward wears the blade 2x, and dragging back wears the blade only .25x (just making up numbers here), dragging back after a forward stroke means you've worn the blade 2.25x. The additional .25x might not seem like much more wear, but you've still only accomplished the same amount of work with that greater wear.

Depending on how you work, you may not even notice it. When I was making drawers for my tool cabinet, I planed down a bunch of stock in a brief amount of time and then got to work with the saws and chisels. I sharpened my plane blades next time I started something. If you sharpen regularly like that, and don't do an extended session of planing, it's apt to not make much difference at all. When I was working on my bench, I spent enough time planing stock down that I needed to sharpen my planes in the middle of working. That's when you start to see the effects. Planing rough lumber, or something like cocobolo or something that is gritty also makes the effect more pronounced.

The rub, of course, is that those long planing sessions where you're more apt to notice the effects are also the ones where you're tired enough as you work that lifting the plane on the return stroke starts to seem like work!

[Tom Vanzant]

Dragging the plane on the return is essentially honing a flat parallel to the work surface. You lose the relief, not the edge, but your ability to take a shaving diminishes. My $.02.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Didn't think about it that way, Tom - That would actually correlate well with what I perceive in wear after considerable use of a jack plane dragging back - you can still take a real heavy shaving if you get a lot of blade projection, but you lose any ability to take a fine shaving. I still feel like the sharpness may suffer as well, but I haven't actually experimented with a blade worn in such a manner to see if it that's the case or not.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I prefer to lift the heel only. Keeping the toe engaged just feels better and more fluid to me. However, lifting and then consciously re-engaging the heel makes me think about my pressure during the push stroke. When I used to drag back flat, it was easy to get sloppy.

Anyway, I like my results a little better now that I'm a heel lifter.

[David Weaver]

Personally, I prefer to lift the heel only. Keeping the toe engaged just feels better and more fluid to me.

The more tired you get, the better it is than trying to twist the sole off the board a little bit. Rotating an 8 pound jointer seems like a non-starter to me (I tried the same thing years ago when I saw it in a klausz video, it works better with lighter planes that have a taller feel to them). Klausz is doing it smoothing drawer sides quickly, though, and not flattening a 15x40 panel or something.

[Frank Drew]

True or not, I was instructed years ago to lift the plane on the return stroke to avoid dulling the blade, and that's what I've done since.

And think of lifting the plane as exercise -- the more you do it, the less it will feel like hard work.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the time my work is only against a stop. Dragging the plane or "tickling the toe" only causes the work to slide back on the bench.

For short work a #6 is often used for removing saw and milling marks, then the blade is dialed back a bit to finish the job. If the piece is too wavy then a scrub plane makes quick work of the saw marks and warpage and again followed up by something in the #6 - 8 range.

Thought the toe tickle does explain why most planes have a rounded or worn toe.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Separate and aside, one of my very favorite planes to use to lighten the load on the jointer (well, really on you, not the jointer) is this one:

http://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=131-795&LARGEVIEW=ON ONLY the largest one at the top of the list, though, the other ones have worthlessly narrow irons that are out of proportion compared to the body size.

I set it for a very rank smooth cut like a jointer might be set and with the double iron close and if rank cut fore plane work left a level board, then this is a lot easier to wield if you're working for a while.

The iron in it is just about magic, but you have to have the stones or diamonds to cut it (I wouldn't approach it even with an india stone if I had oilstones). It is the kind of iron that if you use the plane a lot in a project (like dimensioning all of your lumber by hand), you still won't sharpen it until the next project.

These are the one thing that comes from China that I really like, probably because the firm is genuinely interested in woodworking. The horns sometimes get chipped a little in shipping, though, and the front horn might work its way loose and need to be reglued. They're definitely a user's delight and not a delight for folks who like to buy stuff and return it if it doesn't arrive pristine. When you get them settled in, they're like nothing else - I bought two a while ago for fear that they might stop making them. I have sold off most of my planes since then, but I still have both of these. They're super dandy, and take about 1/3rd of the effort to move around vs. a jointer.

[Chris Griggs]

For short work a #6 is often used for removing saw and milling marks, then the blade is dialed back a bit to finish the job.

This is how I do probably 90% of my stock prep. The No. 8 comes out only when I really need it which is not that often. Even if the board is long I still find the 6 better for traversing as it more then cover the length of my diagonal stroke, and then the 8 is just pulled out if I'm not confident the 6 got me flat down the length or straight from one far corner to the other. Not only is the 8 more tiring, its less balanced when traversing unless I am working an inordinately wide piece. In all honesty the other reason I like using a 6 over an 8 is the 6 requires me to clear less junk off my bench. When I clear space to plane with the 6 and then switch to the 8 I always end up running the toe into a stray marking gauge or screw driver and sending them flying to the floor... kinda lame I know. What can I say, I guess I'm odd in that I love a no. 6 and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

(of course, scale of work factors in greatly here....its rare that I'm planing something longer than 4')

[Chris Griggs]

Most of the time my work is only against a stop. Dragging the plane or "tickling the toe" only causes the work to slide back on the bench.


I find that this issue is greatly decreased or even eliminated when using wooden bodied planes. Its why my transitional jack has become my main roughing plane. I've grown to like it so much I've seriously considered trying to replace all my main stock prep planes with transitionals. Regular woodies would be fine too I guess but I'm a big fan of the bailey design.

[Kees Heiden]

A similar old point of much debate: Do you put the plane down with the sole (and the blade's edge) on the bench, or on its side, or on a bunch of shavings or so?

With my softwood bench I don't really mind to put the plane down on its sole. I can't imagine how it could harm the edge. But I feel guilty enough to often use something underneath so the edge doesn't touch the bench.

[Mark Dorman]

I generally have shavings on my bench or their on the shelf below that has a lip that keeps the blades protected.
Mostly I worry about scuffing my bench rather than hurting the blade. When I started out I did the side thing and nicked a knuckle once and dinged a blade with the toe of another plan. Started thinking that wasn't such a good idea.254349

[Jim Koepke]

Do you put the plane down with the sole (and the blade's edge) on the bench, or on its side, or on a bunch of shavings or so?

With the sole down, there is always something under the toe to keep the blade off the bench. Otherwise my planes rest on their sides. This isn't because of my worrying about the blade, it is easy to sharpen. My worry is about what happens to the bench top if the plane gets a little bump? Fixing a divot in a bench top isn't as easy as honing a blade.

jtk

[Bobby O'Neal]

With the sole down, there is always something under the toe to keep the blade off the bench. Otherwise my planes rest on their sides. This isn't because of my worrying about the blade, it is easy to sharpen. My worry is about what happens to the bench top if the plane gets a little bump? Fixing a divot in a bench top isn't as easy as honing a blade.

jtk

good point, Jim.

[Chris Fournier]

You drag you wear. Is the wear intolerable or discernible. Not for me. As I move to a finished surface I change up planes and move more slowly and deliberately and the plane gets lifted. It's a natural progression on my bench.

[Mark Dorman]

You drag you wear. Is the wear intolerable or discernible. Not for me. As I move to a finished surface I change up planes and move more slowly and deliberately and the plane gets lifted. It's a natural progression on my bench.

Yes I agree the closer you get to the final/finished surface the more deliberate the actions are to achieve that surface.

[Stanley Covington]

A similar old point of much debate: Do you put the plane down with the sole (and the blade's edge) on the bench, or on its side, or on a bunch of shavings or so?

Practical matters aside, it is rude to leave a plane with the blade extended laying on its sole when not in use. Laying on its side is the only option.

Stan