Is CBN simply worth the extra cost?

[Matt Mackinnon]

I knew from the start that getting into woodworking was going to be a very expensive hobby. And even more so when I took up turning. I recently bought a whole lathe setup with a wolverine jig and grinding wheel. The fellow who I bought it from had 2 oneway blue 8" grinding wheels in 54 and 120 grit that have never been used.

I have read up on the CBN and am very interested in the opinion of those that have them. A $200 price tag is quite a bit if it's only a marginal better improvement. I am however getting a set of 10V powered metal tools from Crown, with plans on replacing them with DT when they ware out. I now that Cindy Drozda recommends CBN to get the most out of your 10v gouges. Is her findings the same as yours who have a CBN??

thanks

Matt

[Alan Trout]

The answer is Yes they are a lot better.

Alan

[Bruce Stangeby]

I agree that CBN is worth the cost. I have on CBN wheel now and one ceramic. I will be getting a CBN replacement for the ceramic wheel.

[John Keeton]

Profoundly - yes! And, I think if you review several recent SMC threads, you will find glowing reports of improved edges and better turning experiences. Not to mention it will last for years without any change in diameter - and, no abrasive dust, just metal filings. No hot edges (if you are doing it correctly), and better balance on your grinder.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Matt - my answer is yes! With the CBN wheel, I was able to remove the wheel shroud which allowed additional light so I could see what I was doing. The 1 1/2" wheel gives you plenty of room to sharpen without falling off the wheel. The one thing that alone was worth the extra cost to me, is that I do not have dust from the grinding wheel hanging in the air during and after sharpening!

When you figure that the CBN wheel will last for years of hard use, you can really start to see a savings when you think of the never-ending cost of replacing regular wheels every few years.

[Dan Forman]

They have several benefits --- no need to constantly dress them to keep them true and remove the hollow that develops from the gouges, retain consistent diameter as a result on not dressing, and sharpen 10v and 11a steels better, because these new steels have carbide granules embedded in them, and CBN can sharpen carbide, whereas AL oxide can't. So CBN will put a sharper edge on those new Crown tools that you are getting than standard wheels will. Since they generate a lot less heat, you won't have to keep letting your tool cool if doing some major regrinding to change a profile on a tool (the 80 grit wheel is best for that.)

See this for an explanation of the new steels thing...CBN Wheels Part 2 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198458-CBN-Wheels-Part-2&highlight=)

If you do flatwork too, the huge advantage of CBN is that they won't burn your chisels and plane blades, which AL oxide can even on a low speed grinder.

If money is an issue, just get the 180 grit CBN wheel to start off with, add the 80 grit when you can.

Dan

[Reed Gray]

They do cost more in terms of dollars, but are worth far more in terms of value/bang for the buck. You can use your blue wheels till they wear out, or sell them and buy the CBN wheels. If you get the CBN wheels, you never need to worry about balancing them, cleaning them, or truing them up. The savings on not buying those items almost covers the extra $ you spend on the wheels.

robo hippy

[Prashun Patel]

Matt-
I'll humbly chime in behind the experts here: I love my CBN and I'm no pro. For me the big bang is that it runs very true. I thought I had my AO's balanced well, but the CBN takes it to a new level. I'll go as far to say that if I had to choose between a good gouge + AO wheel and a mediocre gouge + CBN, I'd choose the latter.

[Robert McGowen]

I held off buying one until about a month ago. After a month's worth of use on a 180 grit wheel, I am seriously considering purchasing another one just to put on the other side of the grinder so that I can keep two jigs set up at the same time. They are that good. I don't really know why anyone would need an 80 grit wheel though, as the 180 grit wheel seems to take off plenty of steel if you are not careful with it.

[Chip Sutherland]

The answer is yes. But use the wheels you have already they are fine. Or sell them and buy the CBNs. However, I am not a CBN owner at this time. For $200, I would buy another chuck. I have 5 but 6 must be the magic number, right? I will replace my cheapo sharpening wheel with a CBN later this year (probably at SWAT). I very rarely do any re-profiling of a tool so the cheapo profiling wheel will suffice. Again...just my 2 cents

[Matt Mackinnon]

With that all said, it looks like CBN is in my near future. I have seen the video from D-Way and he goes on to say that putting a single CBN wheel will help balance the normal grinding stone on the other side. I can see having a high cost wheel for the finishing grind. And lets face it, borrowing a page from Rob Cosman, it should only take 30 seconds to sharpen your tools as you should never let them get that dull that it requires longer. On the same thought, doing major re-grinding is probably an exception than a common occurrence.

Is a 180 grit CBN enough? Do you just leave a 56grit blue grinding wheel on the other side if you need to do some re-shaping to do it rough, then move over to the 180CBN? I'm not going to say that money is no object, as I am not swimming in it, but want to spend it where it's justified.

[Bob Bergstrom]

Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!
I hope that helps. My ability to take the smallest and lightest cuts and whisp of a cut with my scrapers.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Is it simply worth the cost? YES. The additional money buys you more consistant grinds - without the wheel diameter changing over time, you never need to change your jig settings unless you're doing a completely different grind, of course. No matrix dust getting all over the place. Simple cleanup with the wave of a magnet. My cheapo WoodCraft grinder thinks it's a Baldor now - smooth as glass. And, best of all, I spend way less time at the grinder trying to nurse it into a good, sharp edge. I can't prove it, but I believe that I'm taking less steel off my tools with each sharpening just because it's so consistent.

Did I already mention that, since I put those wheels on my grinder, I now have a full head of hair? Okay, I did start with a full head of hair, but...

A word of caution, though. when they're new, the wheels cut very aggressively. That's probably a good thing because with CBN, a very light touch is all that's needed. They do settle in with regular use. I have a scraper that is a full 1/2" thick and I reshaped it on the 80 grit when it was new in the blink of an eye. Dave at D-Way sells tools and has been using the same set of wheels for four years to do his production grinding. That means I should probably make sure mine are mentioned in my will 'cause they're going to outlive me.

[bob svoboda]

Without reservation...YES

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Do you want to buy my Norton blue wheels? I won't be going back to them.
faust

[Ian Upwood]

Matt: I posted this question about six months ago on the www.Canadianwoodworking.com (http://www.Canadianwoodworking.com) turners page. I had one response, and not favorable at all. But when reading any of the US forums, everyone raves about the CBN. Just this week I stepped up and ordered the 180 from DWay, and also purchased the slow speed grinder from Woodcrafters which is on sale now for $ 99.00 Both these items I had shipped to my BIL address in Tenn. and he will bring them up here at the end of this month. If I remember correctly you are from the Greater Toronto Area. I live in Mississauga, and would be glad to let you see my new purchases when they arrive, and test them out with your gouges.

Ian

[Thom Sturgill]

You already know my viewpoint from the other thread. Unconditional YES! I wish I had not waited so long.


The answer is yes. But use the wheels you have already they are fine. Or sell them and buy the CBNs. However, I am not a CBN owner at this time.

I think the last sentence above tells the tale. The only 'negative' response so far was someone that does NOT own a CBN wheel, and his response is negative only in that he tells you to use the wheels you have.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Welll... The DW and I were at an all-day class from Eli Avisera, who stated, as he was going to sharped a tool.... Dave has changed sharpening forever. (Dave is also a member of the club we are in). My DW went over to touch up some tool or other, walked over to me and stated "We are getting one of these"
She got one for her birthday.

Just today she was making boxes and I was coring bowl blanks, with both of us going over to the grinder to sharpen. With the long "spin-down" time, I'm not certain the grinder ever actually stopped moving for hours at a time.

We have a 180 grit wheel and a fritable wheel on the grinder and probably will not be getting an 80.

BTW, she also loves the Robo Rest I got a couple weeks ago.

[Matt Mackinnon]

Do you want to buy my Norton blue wheels? I won't be going back to them.
faust

I was going to ask the same question. Seems that I have 2 Oneway blue ones and the grey ones that came with the grinder.

[Harry Robinette]

My main reason for going to the CBN for me was the STONE DUST. I have COPD and other things with my lungs these wheels are unbelievable for no dust in the air. To me the edge is secondary to the no dust but it is the best edge I have found.I am a tool junky I have 3 grinders 2 set-up with wolverines,a belt sander sharping system,some where I have a 4 disc set that go on the lathe, a slow speed Jet wet sharpener and non do what the CBN will which is give me the best edge I have ever had and do it in 4 or 5 seconds.
YES,YES THEY ARE WORTH IT.

[Kathy Marshall]

YES! I just got one and I love it! A light swipe on each edge is all that's needs, or just a little more if you need to do some light reshaping. Leaves a great edge and doesn't heat up the tool. I have the 180 and I reshaped my small scraper from a square end to round and added a negative rake in no time at all.
If you keep your standard wheels then you'll need to invest in some type of dressing jig (more $) and it never fails that the wheel needs dressing just as your finishing something up, but you're short on time.
There's also the safety issue in that you'll never have to worry about the CBN wheel developing a crack and blowing up on you.

[Justin Stephen]

No, not worth it.

Kidding, totally worth it. I made the mistake of getting the 80 when I bought just one but I have been using that one for many months now for general sharpening and it works very, very well and remains perfectly balanced. The extra 1/2" of surface is a wonderful feature and I get a nice, sharp repeatable edge on my tools. The 180 will be added soon.

[Joe Kaufman]

I just purchased the Woodcraft Grinder a week ago. The motor shaft is too short to properly mount the CBN Wheel and bushing. I counter-bored the flanged end of the bushing about 3 / 16 " to slip over the step in the shaft. I am still short of full thread engagement of the nut. I believe a minimum dimension for the shaft length is given in one of the DWay videos.
Joe

[thomas prusak]

I have both the CBN and a Tormek system and IMHO the tormek is a much more refined method of sharpening. The CBN or any grinding wheel for that matter, just feels like your grinding whereas the Tormek feels like your actually precisely sharpening. The Tormek is water cooled and produces no heat. CBN produces plenty of heat.

[Joe Kaufman]

Forgot to add.... I really like the performance of the CBN Wheel.
Joe

[Philip Duffy]

After all these powerful endorsements I have to ask: where did you buy your CBN wheels? And, can you put one on one side with standard grinding on the other? Will the balance be thrown off? Thanks, p.

[John Keeton]

Phillip, most folks are getting the CBN wheels from D-Way Tools (http://www.d-waytools.com/tools-diamond-grinding-wheels.html), and yes, it is fine to run only one on a grinder and actually improve the balance.
I have both the CBN and a Tormek system and IMHO the tormek is a much more refined method of sharpening. The CBN or any grinding wheel for that matter, just feels like your grinding whereas the Tormek feels like your actually precisely sharpening. The Tormek is water cooled and produces no heat. CBN produces plenty of heat.Thomas, I am not sure how you are using the CBN, but my experience is that I can put a fresh edge on with one 2-second swipe and thereafter hold the tip of the tool with virtually no heating of the metal. No doubt, the Tormek system is a good system, and being water cooled, one could grind for an unlimited amount of time. It is also great for non-HSS work, whereas the CBN is really only for HSS - not carbon steel.

[Prashun Patel]

I use mine on a 6" grinder with a 6" AO wheel on the other side. I tried it on a lark, and it has worked so well, I haven't changed it yet.

I bought mine from D-Way.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Yes I have my CBN wheel on one side and the Norton wheel on the other. I have the 180 grit CBN wheel now and love it. I will be getting the 80 grit later this year and those will probably be the last wheels I will ever need to buy.

[Steve Peterson]

Do you want to buy my Norton blue wheels? I won't be going back to them.
faust

I like having a Norton blue wheel on one side and a 180 grit CBN on the other side. There are times when I need to do some light grinding on soft steel. I don't want to risk loading up my CBN. And many people have specified that there is not much need for the 80 grit CBN.

Steve

[Jon Nuckles]

Count me among those saying "yes."

The only thing I can add to what has been said is that one can spend quite a bit on the Oneway balancing system to get a fairly expensive Norton blue wheel to run true before deciding to upgrade to the CBN wheel. DAMHIKT. I keep the blue wheel on one side to use on carbon steel, so I guess it's not a total waste.

[Brian Kent]

I use mine on a 6" grinder with a 6" AO wheel on the other side. I tried it on a lark, and it has worked so well, I haven't changed it yet.

I bought mine from D-Way.

I was about to ask how that was working for you on a 6" grinder, since I have the 6" variable speed Delta. I guess this means it is not a problem.

[Prashun Patel]

I actually have that same variable speed delta grinder. It works fine. I thought I'd probably end up burning out the motor. One year later, I have not yet done that.

Just know that the arbor on that grinder is smaller than the 8" models. So, buy your bushing accordingly. In fact, mine still didn't fit quite right and I had to use 'sand' down the arbor a smidge to get it to go on.

[Mike Peace]

I just purchased the Woodcraft Grinder a week ago. The motor shaft is too short to properly mount the CBN Wheel and bushing. I counter-bored the flanged end of the bushing about 3 / 16 " to slip over the step in the shaft. I am still short of full thread engagement of the nut. I believe a minimum dimension for the shaft length is given in one of the DWay videos.
Joe

Joe, the newer WC grinder must have different specs than the one I have had for four years. I had no problem mounting the CBN wheel from DWay as shown here once I took the shroud off.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Dave told me a minimum of 2 1/4" shaft length is needed. It is also in the video on his website. My 5 yr old woodcraft grinder was fine.

[Michael Kellough]

As a beginner contemplating a new sharpening system (a move up from an old 6" grinder and stock wheels) I read the advice here, added up the cost of better wheels, wheel balancing hubs, and a good diamond wheel truing device, and concluded that the D-way 8" 180 grit CBN wheel was the way to go. (with wheel guards removed 8" will fit on a 6" grinder) In fact, the wheel arrived today and I put it on the HF 8" grinder (3600 rpm) also just purchased. From what I've read, used with care this wheel can still cut without too much heat at that speed.

The cheap HF grinder ($50 delivered) is a miserable piece of junk in itself (weighs about half as much and is shorter than my old Delta 6" grinder) but with the stock wheels removed (and the base flattened) the D-way CBN wheel spins like a dream. Don't know what I'll do with the stock wheels (paper weights?).

Maybe when I get to the point where I want to change the shape of scrapers I'll buy the 80 grit wheel but I expect to use the 180 for years to come.

Forgot to add that the HF spindle is just long enough...not a recommended grinder but it does work.

[Ron Radliff]

All the positive comments in this thread have convinced me. I ordered a 180 grit wheel from Dave about an hour ago.

[Joe Kaufman]

Mike, Measured the shaft length at 2". The chamfer and loss of first thread effectively reduces the useable length. The nuts were approximately flush with the ends of the shaft with the white wheels as supplies by WoodCraft. The white wheels are approximately 15/16" thick across the paper washers.

[Ralph Lindberg]

All the positive comments in this thread have convinced me. I ordered a 180 grit wheel from Dave about an hour ago.

He normally gets it mailed the same day (if you order that early), so you might see it this week still.

[Noah Barfield]

I just purchased the Woodcraft Grinder a week ago. The motor shaft is too short to properly mount the CBN Wheel and bushing. I counter-bored the flanged end of the bushing about 3 / 16 " to slip over the step in the shaft. I am still short of full thread engagement of the nut. I believe a minimum dimension for the shaft length is given in one of the DWay videos.
Joe

Joe, I have the exact same issue with my Woodcraft grinder and CBN wheel combo.

[Dick Latshaw]

All the positive comments in this thread have convinced me. I ordered a 180 grit wheel from Dave about an hour ago.

You won't be disappointed, Sarge. I love mine.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Joe, I have the exact same issue with my Woodcraft grinder and CBN wheel combo.

Dave has bushings pre-bored to fix this problem, not listed on his web-page. Contact Dave and see if you can swap at the meeting in two weeks

[Dave Schweitzer]

I knew from the start that getting into woodworking was going to be a very expensive hobby. And even more so when I took up turning. I recently bought a whole lathe setup with a wolverine jig and grinding wheel. The fellow who I bought it from had 2 oneway blue 8" grinding wheels in 54 and 120 grit that have never been used.

I have read up on the CBN and am very interested in the opinion of those that have them. A $200 price tag is quite a bit if it's only a marginal better improvement. I am however getting a set of 10V powered metal tools from Crown, with plans on replacing them with DT when they ware out. I now that Cindy Drozda recommends CBN to get the most out of your 10v gouges. Is her findings the same as yours who have a CBN??

thanks

Matt

There seems to be a lot of confusion on acceptable uses for the CBN wheels. I would like to offer my findings for whatever help they may be.

You can grind all magnetic HARDENED HSS, and that includes powered metal and carbon steel. As a general rule if you can cut it with a file it is not a hardened material. You will see more sparks off the carbon steel. I have tested carbide on my wheels and if you want to touch up your carbide tools it is ok. Small sparks will appear right where the cutting takes place. I have also tested hand chisels and screwdrivers they are good to go. They will also do a good job on drill bits. I have some machine shops that sharpen large and small drill bits on them they do a excellent job.

I have tested aluminum and brass, because there are jigs and fixtures that contain these materials. I felt in time, some contact with the wheel would happen [don’t panic] it may load the wheels some but the wheel is not destroyed. Just go over this area with one of your scrapers and in time you it will be back to normal. The coarser the wheel the less loading, I have some 60 grits that I use and they are not as prone to loading no matter what I tested on them.

There is a lot of info on CBN wheels on the internet but most of is related to heavy industrial use. We as wood turners are learning as we go, regarding wet or dry grinding in a heavy use industrial situation coolant is necessary to cool the work piece and the wheel as wood turners we don’t have to worry about this so dry grinding is ok.

As wood turners we love to make things – tools and such. Some have had questions about shaping drill rod. In the annealed state I would not recommend it, but once you heat treat it you are go to go. For the annealed steel, I would recommend using a belt sander with 60 or 80 grit belt.

As to cleaning, I have tested a lot of solvents on the wheels and have found none that seem to affect them. You can use a brush and just about a cleaning agent you would like, and then blow them off with air. To tell the truth, I have only cleaned wheels when I did some testing, for me it is one of the products I just use and get on with life.

Why electroplated wheels? Electroplated wheels are the most efficient with the steels used in woodturning, in the industry it called free cutting.

Another situation has come up with the newer WC 8” grinders. Apparently, they are making them with short shafts. There is a simple fix for this. Simply drill out the flanged side of the bushing to go over the inner shoulder like this -
254442
If you check your grinder and find this problem, one can be supplied that is drilled out. Joe K was the first to bring this to my attention, I think he did a post on it, and bless his heart, I was having a bad morning when he called and he did get me calmed down. Thanks Joe.

It has been a pleasure get to know the members on this site, whether it was a symposium, email or phone, and would also like to thank you all for your support in this journey. And have fun - life is short.

[Ron Radliff]

I ordered mine late Wednesday evening and received it today (Friday). Wow, that's service! Thanks, Dave.
I mounted it to my grinder as soon as I got in the shop and sharpened all my gouges and scrapers. All the positive comments in this thread are right on the mark. I should have done this earlier.

[Reed Gray]

Dave,
Thanks for posting about grinding softer materials on the wheel. I may still have to go out to the shop and try it out. Curiosity you know....

robo hippy

[Ron Ford]

As if there was not enough support for CBN wheels already, I'll add my absolutely yes vote. Wonderful piece of equipment and worth every penny.

[paul cottingham]

This may be a dumb question, but can you sharpen chisels and plane blades on these wheels? A2 or O1 or the new veritas pm steels specifically.
thanks

[Dave Schweitzer]

Dave,
Thanks for posting about grinding softer materials on the wheel. I may still have to go out to the shop and try it out. Curiosity you know....

robo hippy

Let me know how it goes.

[Dave Schweitzer]

Yes, you can, they all fall under the HSS hardened catagery.
If in doubt give them the file test I talked about.

[robert baccus]

OK, enough teasing here, does anyone really like these wheels??

[Bob Coates]

Notice that craft supplies sells smaller wheel, but has side cbn to sharpen skews, is this an advantage? D-way 1 1/2 seems more of an advantage. I thought I saw somewhere that D-way new ones come with side cbn.
Bob

[Dave Schweitzer]

Yes, the D-Way's have grit on both sides. You can see how I sharpen a skew on my web site.
Dave.

[Reed Gray]

Well, I tested the 'grinding aluminum will ruin your CBN wheel' theory today. I had some air craft grade aluminum tubing in the shop, and put it to the wheel. It was thin walled, and I did pressure/push it into the wheel rather than just barely touching it to the wheel. The idea was to create build up on the wheel. The first thing I noticed was that little flakes of aluminum were coming off the wheel rather than the more common dust from the steel. I had a nice little silver line on the wheel. It was not solid, and when I turned the grinder off, you had to look to see is where with just a glance, it was barely noticeable. The wheel was galled with little flakes of aluminum on it. I took my Thompson V 10 scraper to the wheel. First thing I noticed was that it still cut nicely. However there was a noticeable bluing of the cutting edge. When I moved the scraper off the aluminum line, the bluing went away. After a minute or two of grinding, the aluminum line had faded, but hadn't gone totally away. I would expect that with a day or so of sharpening my V10 tools on it, most of the build up would be gone. I also experienced some 'bouncing' of the scraper as I was sharpening on the stripe. Dave did tell me that this would happen. I guess from skipping on the aluminum build up, and then cutting on the CBN.

So, conclusion is that yes you can get away with a little grinding of softer metals on the CBN wheels, mostly just some minor touch up, but I would not make a habit of it, and you are probably better off not grinding brass, aluminum, or the soft carbon steels on your wheels. CBN is more of a specialized material for our HSS and other turning tools. You may not totally ruin it, but it will not cut as cool as an unloaded wheel, though it still cuts. The results were almost identical on the 80 and 180 grit wheels.

I don't have any need for the side grind. Dave mentioned that most who are interested in it are the carvers. I do have at least one skew with a convex grind, and several with a concave grind. Not sure if a straight grind would have any benefits.

robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

This may be a dumb question, but can you sharpen chisels and plane blades on these wheels? A2 or O1 or the new veritas pm steels specifically.
thanks

Yes, and it's much harder to burn them, a huge + ! They will actually do a better job with the new PM steels than a traditional wheel - see the link on my earlier post for details.

Dan

[Dave Schweitzer]

Reed,
Sounds like our tests were about the same.
Dave.

[Matt Mackinnon]

Nothing like reviving an old thread.

I am getting a CBN wheel shortly from Dave at D-Way, but am stuck with a delema.

I know that I want a 180 wheel, but am left with the question of what is best to order. I don't know if I will ever need to do much re-shaping of tools. I can't say as I am really just starting down the path of getting into turning. I know it's something that I want to do for the next many years but if a 180 can do what I need for 90%+ of the time, then why buy the 80? But I don't have that past experience to really fall back on.

would you just run one wheel or get two? and if so what would you run?

[Jeffrey J Smith]

[QUOTE=Matt Mackinnon; would you just run one wheel or get two? and if so what would you run?[/QUOTE]
I've got both the 180 and 80 grit wheels. I've found the 180 perfect for routine sharpening and, as has been mentioned, the 80 is great for reshaping when needed. After some experimenting, I've found that, for the scrapers I use, I like the burr from the 80 grit wheel much better for the traditional scrapers and the burr from the 180 is better on negative rake scrapers for sheer scraping.

Just my opinion...I use them both, but if I had to choose, the 180 would be my pick.

[Reed Gray]

I have both. I do use scrapers a lot, and most of the time, I sharpen them on my 80 grit wheel. I relieve the bevels on my gouges, and scrapers on the 80 grit wheel. I also grind my bottom feeder type gouges on the 80 grit wheel because I grind them at 70 degrees, which is the same bevel I have on my scrapers. I do need to try scrapers on both wheels to see if I can tell a difference. Same with the negative rake scraper, which I seldom use, other than on boxes and end grain pieces. I have gone back and forth on the bottom feeders, and don't really feel any difference, and I do sharpen my Thompson Fluteless gouges on the 80 grit wheel. I use them for high angle shear finish cuts, and they seem to cut better with a burr than without.

Another point on the wheels loading up if you grind soft steel on them. I have had a few Big Ugly tools made; traditional for Oregon Coast Myrtle wood turners: cold rolled bar stock with tantung brazed onto it. Tantung is a cast metal, and almost as hard as carbide, takes an excellent edge, and cuts longer than anything I have really used (note here, I don't use the carbide tipped tools). My big one is 1 inch wide, 3/8 thick, with a 3 by 1/8 by 1 inch wide piece of tantung on it. When I relieve the heels on the bevels, the wheel does load up a bit because when I drop it down flat on the tool rest to refresh the edge, it bounces a bit at first from the loading, but then smooths out as the tantung removes any of the scaling/buildup.

Love the CBN wheels.

robo hippy

[Jamie Donaldson]

The only negative I have discovered with my 180 CBN wheel is how much fun it is to sharpen every turning tool in the shop! If I were starting over as a new turner, here is the grinder set-up that would serve my purposes for a long time: the 8" Woodcraft low speed grinder with original 60 grit AlO wheel on the L side for shaping, and the 180 CBN wheel on the R side for sharpening, and CBN wheel L or R side orientation is optional! ;). When the AlO wheel needs replacement, the 80 CBN wheel would be the replacement!

[Michael Stafford]

Dave Schweitzer, I asked this question on another forum and no one had an answer so I will pose it to you as someone who has a lot of experience with the CBN wheels.

I can buy 4 Norton 3X wheels for the cost of one CBN wheel. Those 4 wheels will last me somewhere on the order of 15-16 years. I don't turn but 8-10 hours a week when it is warm; much less when it is cold. I am on my 3rd change of wheels in the 10 years I have been turning and I don't expect to need a change for another or year or two. That is how I came up with 4 wheels lasting 15-16 years.

Now for the question: Will a CBN wheel last 15-16 years? I understand the other advantages- no grinding dust, no sparks, cooler edge, better balance etc. but it is hard for me to spend that amount of money if I don't think it is cost effective. And like I said on the other forum I don't know if I will live another 15 years.....:o

One more question: If I buy a CBN wheel do I trash my Oneway balancing system?

[bob svoboda]

I bought the 180 about 1 1/2 yrs ago with the idea I would add the 80 later. Have no further desire to get the 80.

[Reed Gray]

Mike,
At the rate you turn, they should easily last you that long, and you could probably resell them then. They haven't been on the turning market for more than a couple of years, but mine, other than a short break in period, show no signs of slowing down. You might be able to sell your Oneway balancing system to help pay for the wheels. Add to that you never have to clean them or true them up ever = time saved. You never have to adjust your grinding jigs for wheel wear. Really, it is like variable speed, once you try it, you never go back.

robo hippy

[Noah Barfield]

Mike,

I wrestled with the same issues before getting one. There are many advantages. Not having to true the wheels and deal with the subsequent dust was a big selling point for me.

Not to say, however, CBN wheels are mess-less. You'll have to deal with the tiny metal shavings somehow. But a few swipes with a magnet is much easier than breaking out the shop vac and wearing a dust mask while truing.

[Matt Mackinnon]

I can buy 4 Norton 3X wheels for the cost of one CBN wheel. Those 4 wheels will last me somewhere on the order of 15-16 years. Will a CBN wheel last 15-16 years? I understand the other advantages- no grinding dust, no sparks, cooler edge, better balance etc. but it is hard for me to spend that amount of money if I don't think it is cost effective. And like I said on the other forum I don't know if I will live another 15 years.....:o

One more question: If I buy a CBN wheel do I trash my Oneway balancing system?

I ordered the 80 wheel along with the 180 from Dave today. He said he can ship them out on Monday as he is out of the shop through the weekend doing a seminar.

To answer your question, Most likely.

CBN has been around for quite a few years and is used heavily in the manufacturing industry. In speaking with other suppliers, they sell wheels that get used close to 24/7 and last 5-8 years. Now Dave's wheels may not be as high a grade (I don't know) but you'd be at best getting 1-2 hours of actual sharpening time per day, or say 15 hours max per week. Dave's wheels should last probably 20+ years.

But that is not why I am buying them.

1. The won't explode. (I have worked in a manufacturing plant where one did and it turned me off using a grinding wheel for the longest time. Don't say it never happens)
2. Cleaner. The amount of dust that a grinding wheel produces it terrible on your lungs. Do you have a dust collector hookup to your grinding wheel??
3. cooler. Heat is not your friend, and if you can grind without bluing your tools, then that is always better.
4. doesn't change size. As everyone has pointed out, set the jig up and it's done.
5. 1 1/2" grinding surface. I don't think your nortons are that wide.

It is better, but the first two points were what sold me. Safety is everything. I am taking the two Oneway wheels and the balancing components and if I can sell them for even $100 (half price) as they are pretty much new, then the cost of one of the wheels is 1/2 price. I set it up once, and never have to worry again. I like that idea.

[Michael Stafford]

Matt, I worked in a manufacturing plant and was operating a surface grinder when a 36" diameter 6" wheel exploded. It was being dressed at the time and most of the damage was at the end of the table where the diamond dresser was. Trust me you don't want to be in the same room with that much shrapnel raining down on you.

I always ring my wheels when I buy them and before I install them.

Matt makes a good point, don't stand in the line of fire when you turn on your grinder because that is when they are most likely to explode.

[robert baccus]

If starting from scratch I would certainly go for a CBN wheel. About the time they were introduced I found Gold on the E_BAY. 6"&8" lapidary wheels for 6-18$ each. These are diamond grits from 100 t0 1500 grits --steel discs. I have 4 running back to back on a cheap HF long nose buffer-two on each end back to back. I already had an 8" grinder with blue stones which I use to maintain a hollow cut on gouges--then a 1 second light swipe will give you the sharpest edge in north america, You can repeat this 3-6 times before any reshaping is needed. I never knew what sharp tools were before. OBTW these are considered honing wheels--they do conserve gouge iron due to the light touch needed. Great for router bits. planes,andcarbide bits as well. Just another angle.

[David C. Roseman]

Matt, congratulations on taking the plunge. I notice you started this epic thread on 2-12-13, so if you just now ordered the wheels, you've clearly done your due diligence! Once you've tried them for awhile, pls. post a follow-up with your impressions. ;)

I've had the 180 grit CBN wheel from D-Way for several months. I'm not one for jumping in on pop tool trends, but IMO this is one tool that deserves all of its good reviews. Too, Dave Schweitzer is great to deal with.

One caution I have for folks thinking of getting both the 180 and 80 grit wheels for their grinder, if they only have one grinder: They shouldn't be used for carbon steel tools due to the risk of clogging. Reed Gray, Dave Schweitzer and others have posted on this elsewhere. Swapping wheels on and off is not practical, so if both are CBN, it's good to have a separate grinder with conventional wheels for other than HSS, Powder Metallurgy and (for limited sharpening) carbide tools.

David

[Matt Mackinnon]

David, Yes the thread started this past December, but at the time it was what felt like -40 in my shop and the thought of doing actual tool sharpening, let alone turning was not likely. We finally have somewhat warm weather (though it did snow last week).

I have read many posts about not grinding soft steel. To be quite honest, I think I might have 1 detail gouge that I was given that isn't HSS or PM. And that gouge had been replaced with a Crown PM one that is sitting here with me, but needs to be sharpened. Come to think of it, i don't know of many off the shelf tools that are not made out of HSS. How common is it?

I had a demo by one of my turners guild members who use a 30" belt sander to sharpen all his tools. I do have one of those in the shop, so I guess I can use that in a push.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

Mike:
I, too turn part time. My experience has been summed up pretty well by the opinions already expressed. But there's one thing I've noticed that hasn't been mentioned very often. Since going to CBN wheels, both the 80 and the 180, I find that my edge lasts longer and I spend less time at the grinder when touching up an edge. That's not only saving my time (value debatable since I'm not exactly a production turner) but it is saving me expensive steel as well. Put another way, I do less regrinding and usually only a very quick touch up of the cutting edge. My tools are lasting longer.
While I can't quantify that, my tools cost way more than the matrix wheels I used to use. I've found that I'm getting much longer life from all my tools in the bargain.
Just my experience. I'd like to hear if others have found the same.

Jeff

[robert baccus]

Dave Schweitzer, I asked this question on another forum and no one had an answer so I will pose it to you as someone who has a lot of experience with the CBN wheels.

I can buy 4 Norton 3X wheels for the cost of one CBN wheel. Those 4 wheels will last me somewhere on the order of 15-16 years. I don't turn but 8-10 hours a week when it is warm; much less when it is cold. I am on my 3rd change of wheels in the 10 years I have been turning and I don't expect to need a change for another or year or two. That is how I came up with 4 wheels lasting 15-16 years.

Now for the question: Will a CBN wheel last 15-16 years? I understand the other advantages- no grinding dust, no sparks, cooler edge, better balance etc. but it is hard for me to spend that amount of money if I don't think it is cost effective. And like I said on the other forum I don't know if I will live another 15 years.....:o

One more question: If I buy a CBN wheel do I trash my Oneway balancing system?

Big Mike, I happened upon a solution to sharpening situation you might like. You avoid the herd like me. Found out I could buy 6"steel/diamond wheels on E_BAY for 6-12 bucks in several grits. Bought several and shared with friends too stuborn to try this. Bought a HF buffing mackine(long noses) 40 bucks and mounted 2 discs on each spindle back to back. This gives me a broad choice of grits to choose from. I am currently running 100 to 1500 on the beast. Remember these are not sharpening wheels but honing wheels. I shape on those nasty old blue wheels and then touch up the edges lightly 3-4 times before sharpening again. I never knew the meaning of SHARP before this. I usually do not use the superedge while roughing out but I do for everything else. Just a sharper cheaper alternitive. Crazy cajun

[robert baccus]

Mike---everyone is assumeing we have only 2 choices. Check out the prices on the 6"diamond discs on E-bay(lapidary supplies) I now own these discs fron 100 grit to 1500 grit--used only for honing several times between stone sharpening and and shaping. I never knew what SHARP was in my turning. I can cut piles of froghair now and much cheaper too.

[Steve Fulgoni]

I found that after a month or so of use the grit gets a bit finer i.e. a 180 wheel acts more like a 220 grit wheel. I got nervous that my wheel was failing and called Dave. He confirmed that this happens and says the wheels "settle in" after an initial break-in period. I have had my wheels for about a year and I would say that they have not gotten worse. My 180 grit wheel does a super job of fine grinding - almost a polish, but there is no way I can reshape a gouge with it. I use the 80 grit wheel for reshaping tools to an irish grind and for sharpening scrapers. These wheels certainly change the way you do things for the better. I posted some YouTube videos using them but I know others have as well.

[Roy Turbett]

Without a doubt, yes.