Simple Window

[Chris McLeester]

I have almost finished building my shed. I made the doors this weekend, but still need windows.

I was thinking of using a simple frame made with pocket screws. I was then going to rabbet a groove in the back to accept the glass.

Most of the stuff online I have found seems to focus on complex windows -- cope bits, double pane, complex frames, mortise/tenon mullions, etc. I just need a simple shed window. So a few quick questions:

1. Do I really just use "glazing compound" to hold the windows in the rabbet? I have looked at the tutorials, but none provide a closeup that I can see well enough. It is unclear on my house windows what was done. It almost looks like they are set in a dado -- which I know is a no-no with windows. I have seen some "retaining strips" in some discussions (and on a glass front cabinet I have in my house).

2. How deep should I make the rabbet? I bought 5/4 stock for the window.

3. Any ideas on how to make a divided light with this set up? I was thinking about making some kind of lap joint grid and setting it in the frame against the front of the window (non-rabbet side). Is the divider normally only on one side? Otherwise, I don't see how it wouldn't jut out on the rabbeted side.

I put a picture of the shed in its current state...not really relevant, but hey, I like it.

[Jim Andrew]

When I build outbuildings, I just go get cheap vinyl windows with flanges, so the windows are waterproof and operable. Nice to be able to open the window and let some air in. I picked up a few extras the last time Menards had a sale on some cheap windows. Years ago I built some windows, they were a pain and now I wish I had bought some instead, as they need to be replaced.

[Mike Cutler]

Chris

Lots of questions, but I know one answer for a fact. No, the glazing compound is not the only thing holding the window in. There are small metal fasteners that I know as Glazing Points. They are pushed into the frame and against the window. The Glazing compound goes over them.
I would take Jim's advice seriously and just buy some premade windows and set them into frames. The first time you have to remove the glazing compound to re-glaze the windows, you'll be glad you did.;)

[Joe Hillmann]

A trim piece goes on the inside. You put glazing putty up against the trim piece, push the glass into place the the glazing putty squishes out around all four sides. Then you use glazing points to hold the glass in place and then add a filet of glazing compound to the outside corners of the window.

The reason the trim is on the inside is so if the glazing compound chips and doesn't get repaired right away there is nothing to hold water so the damage to rot is not as bad as if the trim was on the outside. And the reason to have glazing compound on the inside and outside is to keep the window from rattling. And the glazing points are there to hold the glass in place until the putty sets up.

I just looked at some windows I have in the basement, it looks like the trim piece that holds the glass is about 3/16 tall with a decorative profile on it.

Also your bottom sill needs to slant down to the outside.

I would look into buying some cheap or second hand windows especially if you want them to open.

[Joe Hillmann]

If you do decide to go with cutting a rabbet instead of a trim piece the rabbet should be cut on the front/outside that way when water gets in it can get out.

[Chris Luna]

Also keep in mind that the building will settle and shift over time. You might not be able to see it but it will. Snow load will affect things as well. Make sure you don't fasten the top flange of a manufactured window. This allows for building deflection without breaking the glass. If you decide to make your own, then make sure there is a buffer between the glass and the rabbeted frame. i.e. don't make it too precise of a fit. You need to allow to natural movement both between the glass & frame and between the frame & structure.

[phil harold]

matters how long you expect it to last
pocket screws, no glazing compound = it wont last long
you would be better off with just a piece of plexi in an opening

wooden windows need structural connections and water shedding abilities to survive
The woodwright shop did a show on it to give you the basics

http://video.pbs.org/video/2178721004/

[Peter Quinn]

For a simple fixed sash (non operable) its really more wood and work to make a good durable unit than its worth. By the time you make the sash, the jamb, weather strip it, build in stops, etc, on just a few units, not real efficient. You could do as you suggest, pocket screw ( dowels are better), rabbit, cope the ends with a dado or router table, maybe use well primed pine or cedar. You can also silicone the glass in, make wooden stops to hold in the glass and shed water. Given its an unheated out building, it might suffice. But if you can suffer vinyl windows, it might prove a better use of your time.

[Geoff Barry]

I don't know where you are located, but around here, there's an organization that recycles building materials. When I built a shed, I went over there and bought a double-hung window for $25. I had to use roofing felt and some membrane to make it weather-tight, but . . . $25 :)

[Ethan Melad]

I made a small (6x24") mahogany window with frosted glass for our downstairs bathroom that has held up well. It was a very simple 4 sided frame with 3/4" stops. The exterior stops are glued and the interior are attached with stainless screws, if i remember correctly. the frame was grooved on the outside to accept a nailing flange and i siliconed all the joints and behind the stops/glass.

[Peter Kelly]

What size did you make the openings? Better Barns sells assembled and glazed sash that might fit. You'd just need to make the jambs, paint and install them.
http://betterbarns.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

CMT did some step by step instructions for building wooden window sash:
http://www.cheyennesales.com/download/sash.pdf
http://www.cmtutensili.com/bom/downloadfree.asp?lib=Files&ID=507

Much too nice of a shed to put cruddy looking vinyl windows into.

[Chris McLeester]

Thanks for all the advice!

Jim -- I agree...at this point, I would go pre-made, but I can't find any the proper size. The book I was building the shed from said these were standard size windows. I can't find anyone that sells them -- except the shed plan company. They want $130 each for just the sash. I built the trim, jamb, and sill already. They are just waiting to be installed.

Mike -- I have seen some folks talk about glazing points and others not. Looks like I need to find some more reading on it. It seems like people make divided light cabinets without them.

Joe -- Sounds like you've done this before. That's some good advice on the trim piece. I did make the sill slant towards the outside...just planed it a bit. As for windows opening, the book I have explains how to make a stop and just let them tilt in.

Chris -- I will definitely undersize the pane by a bit...great tip!

Phil -- Definitely can't wait to watch that video.

So -- rabbet on inside to set glass with silicone and glazing compound, mullions on outside, and trim pieces holding the glass into rabbet. I guess it's just time to roll the dice...I can't stomach spending $600 bucks on windows for a shed...

[Chris McLeester]

Peter -- Yeah, that's the company. Those CMT plans are a bit intimidating to me...but yeah, those would be nice...

I have some 5/4 pine left from another project. I might just try to approximate it.




What size did you make the openings? Better Barns sells assembled and glazed sash that might fit. You'd just need to make the jambs, paint and install them.
http://betterbarns.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64

CMT did some step by step instructions for building wooden window sash:
http://www.cheyennesales.com/download/sash.pdf
http://www.cmtutensili.com/bom/downloadfree.asp?lib=Files&ID=507

Much too nice of a shed to put cruddy looking vinyl windows into.

[Chris McLeester]

Oh, and thanks for the compliment! It's turning out pretty well...turned out to be a good winter project.

[Peter Kelly]

You could also call up a millwork shop and have them make you what's called a "barn sash". Salb Sash & Door in Chicago will mill all the parts and mail them to you in a tube. Assembly, glazing and painting are up to you but this is pretty straightforward and you won't need to buy any more than glass, compound, linseed oil, points and a knife.

Salb Sash & Door
4255 W 43rd Street
Chicago, IL 60632
(773) 247-7255
info@salbsash.com

[Joe Hillmann]

You don't want trim pieces on the outside. They will hold water and rot. I have never built a window but I have fixed lots of them. Any that had trim on the outside instead of glazing points and putty rotted. Over time the ones that had glazing points and putty may have had the putty crack or chip but any water that got in through that crack or chip could also get out through it so the rot wasn't as bad.

[Chris McLeester]

When I say "trim" I mean the grille. This seems to be the normal way from looking at windows over the past few days (I've been doing that a lot).
You don't want trim pieces on the outside. They will hold water and rot. I have never built a window but I have fixed lots of them. Any that had trim on the outside instead of glazing points and putty rotted. Over time the ones that had glazing points and putty may have had the putty crack or chip but any water that got in through that crack or chip could also get out through it so the rot wasn't as bad.

[Peter Quinn]

You don't want trim pieces on the outside. They will hold water and rot. I have never built a window but I have fixed lots of them. Any that had trim on the outside instead of glazing points and putty rotted. Over time the ones that had glazing points and putty may have had the putty crack or chip but any water that got in through that crack or chip could also get out through it so the rot wasn't as bad.

Nah, you put in good glass stops (aka wooden trim on outside) , miter it tight or cope depending on profile, prime it well, paint it to the sash...don't skip that part, let a bead of paint seal the stop to the glass. Last a long time, then easy to fix when it's shot. I too have fixed plenty of sash, and putty can pull away from the glass leaving a nice gap for water to collect and rot out the bars that form the glass rabbits, no real easy fix for it either. Regardless of construction or materials wood windows must be maintained with paint and preferably well protected with a generous soffit. Let um get soaked, watch them go down.

[Chris McLeester]

Peter -- I don't get it. On every window I see, it looks like the routed munton is faced to the outside. This was part of my original question. I'm not really sure which is in or out. It seems like only one side in the link below has a decorate edge. I would think that is for the outside of the shed (and it seems it is being installed that way in the link as well). From the inside of the shed, the window would look like a single pane (held in place with trim around the edges of the large pane of glass.

http://www.gifford-park-assoc.org/Buildingadivdedlightstormsash.pdf