Soaking ceramic water stones (Stu's special set)

[Rob Dickson]

Hi to all,

I received my first sharpening set from Stu a little while ago (#1200, 6000 & 13000 with the Atoma)...I'm just about ready to start on a major sharpening session as I also bought my initial set of planes from LV (LA Jack, Jointer, smoothing plane, a #5 1/2, shoulder plane, router and small plow). I've never sharpened before and have an older plane iron from a #4 Whitmore smoother to practice on. I guess my first question is what I do with the "special" stone set from Stu as far as soaking goes? Do I place them all in water for a period of time? Do I soak them for a short time prior to use? Should they "live" in water all the time and if so, how often should I change out the water?

Any advise is appreciated. I've done a search here but haven't been able to find a clear answer. For what its worth, freezing isn't an issue (well no more than living in Northern British Columbia is any given day!) Oh, and I've got Ron Hocks book to follow for the actual sharpening process.

Thanks!

[Chris Griggs]

The 1200 needs to be soaked at least a minute or two. The 6k and the 13k can be soaked, or used with just a splash. I feel they work better soaked. All three can be soaked permanently. Just change the water from time to time. Since freezing isn't an issue, I would recommend just leaving them in water. Another option is to keep them in some kind of plastic container(s), fill it up every time you go into the shop, leave them in water while your in the shop and then empty the when your done for the day.

They are very flexible stones you can use them however. My preference is just to let them live in water though.

[Glenn Samuels]

Not meaning to steal a thread but I just got the 1000, 6000, and 13,000 from Stu. The 6,000 has a base. It looks like some sort of polymer. Can it soak in the water indefinitely too?

[Chris Griggs]

Not meaning to steal a thread but I just got the 1000, 6000, and 13,000 from Stu. The 6,000 has a base. It looks like some sort of polymer. Can it soak in the water indefinitely too?

Well, I can't tell you unequivocally since I have baseless, but I can't imagine it would be any kind of issue. It's just plastic, and I'm 99.99999% sure it would be fine. I wouldn't personally worry about it but if you want 100% certainty shoot Stu and email.

[Jim Stewart]

I am not sure but I thought I read somewhere that Stu advised against continuous soaking of these stones. Stated that there is a potential for algae growth. Anybody else hear that?

[John Coloccia]

I am not sure but I thought I read somewhere that Stu advised against continuous soaking of these stones. Stated that there is a potential for algae growth. Anybody else hear that?

Sounds pretty much like any other stone you soak continuously. That's always a problem, and some people put a few drops of bleach in the water to combat it.

[Chris Griggs]

I am not sure but I thought I read somewhere that Stu advised against continuous soaking of these stones. Stated that there is a potential for algae growth. Anybody else hear that?

Yes, Stu has stated that it can be an issue if you don't change the water. As long as you change the water periodically its not an issue.

[Paul McGaha]

If I remember correctly Stu told me to soak those stones about 10 minutes prior to use.

PHM

[Jussi Auvinen]

Try what works for you! You wont destroy the stones trying out different methods. Just dont drop them on a concrete floor, everything else they can pretty much handle :)

But starting out in sharpening just throw all off them in a bucket of water for a few minutes then just go to town and start looking for that burr!

Starting out with these stones I had a few problems because I was using them way too wet (the 6&13k). You'll learn how much water you need on and in the stone as you go along! Have fun! :)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Rob

I keep mine in sealed plastic tubs (from the supermarket), one per tub. I am lucky to have a sink in my shop, and have sideboards for both the tubs and for where I sharpen. The tubs look like this ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening4.jpg

To keep the stone off the grunge that can occur at the bottom of a tub there is a ring of tubing, and the stone is placed on top of this. This also helps regulate the amount of stone being soaked in the case of a 1200/13000 combo.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening1.jpg

Oh, the reason for labeling is just in case that the colour may get lost ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening3.jpg

The tubs get filled at the start of each session in the shop, then drained at the end.

Here is the sharpening centre (taken about 2 years ago) with Pro Shaptons at the ready ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/SharpeningCentre6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Glenn Samuels]

Nice setup Derek. Gives me something to shoot for.

[Dave Parkis]

I have the 1000/6000/13000 set frim Stu and I soak the 1000 for a few minutes (or until it stops bubbling :D), I soak the 13000 while I'm using the 1000 and I just splash the 13K.

[Rob Dickson]

Thanks very much guys...we have a new stat. holiday here in British Columbia on Monday and I intend to spend an appreciable amount of time at the bench, with the stones....it'll be the first session, with many more to come!

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi Rob

I keep mine in sealed plastic tubs (from the supermarket), one per tub. I am lucky to have a sink in my shop, and have sideboards for both the tubs and for where I sharpen. The tubs look like this ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening4.jpg

To keep the stone off the grunge that can occur at the bottom of a tub there is a ring of tubing, and the stone is placed on top of this. This also helps regulate the amount of stone being soaked in the case of a 1200/13000 combo.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening1.jpg

Oh, the reason for labeling is just in case that the colour may get lost ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Pond/Sharpening3.jpg

The tubs get filled at the start of each session in the shop, then drained at the end.

Here is the sharpening centre (taken about 2 years ago) with Pro Shaptons at the ready ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Workbench%20and%20Workshop/SharpeningCentre6.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, that certainly gives new meaning to the saying 'go big or go home.' But I have a feeling you would assert that this is a modest set up. I thought it was interesting that you noted the color of each stone on a label.

Seems a bit fussy but I'm sure the edges are worth it. No way they could be anything less than stellar.

[John Coloccia]

I thought it was interesting that you noted the color of each stone on a label.


He noted which color matches up with which grit on his 2 sided stones in case the markings came off.

[Archie England]

I've been using Stu's set for about two years. Though I don't continuously perma-soak, I have kept them in water for several weeks. I refresh the water as need. The plastic base has never showed any issues. When dry, ten minutes is a good starting point for getting them ready for use.

[Charlie Stanford]

He noted which color matches up with which grit on his 2 sided stones in case the markings came off.

Thanks. Do those markings go very deep into the stone? They must dissolve pretty quickly I'd guess.

[Archie England]

I use Sharpie's to label the end of each stone (no need to this for Choseras), especially the white colored stones. Most have lasted (with fading) over a year.

[John Coloccia]

Thanks. Do those markings go very deep into the stone? They must dissolve pretty quickly I'd guess.

The markings on my Norton dual stone seem more or less permanent, but I don't really use water stones anymore, AND I don't soak them, so who knows.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Charlie

Fishing again ...

For reference, Stu mentioned to me that there had been cases where the colours on the 1200/13000 faded until you could not tell them apart. Therefore I marked them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill White]

I keep mine in a plastic container made for holding deviled eggs (ain't that a new one fer ya?).
The "cupped" bottom keeps the stones from fully on the bottom of the tray, and a dash of bleach keeps the water clean.
Bill

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Charlie

Fishing again ...

For reference, Stu mentioned to me that there had been cases where the colours on the 1200/13000 faded until you could not tell them apart. Therefore I marked them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Actually, it's the Select II #6000 that's dyed 'orange' as if it's undyed, it's visually identical to the Select II #10000.

It's the only Sigma Power stone that is coloured in any way, and the only one that's affected by water or typical household chemicals.


As for the original question, I usually soak the #1200, splash the #6000 and #13000. All can be soaked, splashed or anything in between and they behave differently depending on whether they're soaked or splashed or used dry. Experiment to find which way you prefer them to be.

Stu.

[Adam Cruea]

I soak my stones 24/7 in a closed, opaque container. No light, there shouldn't be anything growing in it (but I still change the water when it starts to seem cloudy or whenever I feel like it, but the city water here has chlorine in it anyway).

Soaking, they all seem "softer" to me and like they're working just a little better. YMMV, though, as I like a "soft" stone. . .I've noticed when I'm done on a particular stone, the instead of the stone feels like it stops "grabbing".

Either way, good buy. I love those three stones. . .a mirror polish with minimal work. Great for a lazy dude like me. :-D

[Tom Henderson2]

Hi Rob

I keep mine in sealed plastic tubs (from the supermarket), one per tub. I am lucky to have a sink in my shop, and have sideboards for both the tubs and for where I sharpen. The tubs look like this ..

<snip>

Derek

Hi Derek-

Could I ask why you go to the trouble of having separate containers for each stone? I'm just wondering if there is a technical benefit (less cross-contamination etc) or if it is just convenience for the size of the available containers.

A related question is soaking the stones in horizontal vs vertical (on edge) orientation..

Thanks in advance!

-Tom in SoCal

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi Charlie

Fishing again ...

For reference, Stu mentioned to me that there had been cases where the colours on the 1200/13000 faded until you could not tell them apart. Therefore I marked them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Not really fishing Derek as much as using my sense of sight

[Charlie Ross]

Not meaning to steal a thread but I just got the 1000, 6000, and 13,000 from Stu. The 6,000 has a base. It looks like some sort of polymer. Can it soak in the water indefinitely too?

I soaked that same stone in a tub for a week and the base fell off?:eek:

[David Weaver]

Sounds good. If it fell off cleanly, you can just leave it off.

[Chris Griggs]

I soaked that same stone in a tub for a week and the base fell off?:eek:

You're better off. Bases suck anyway.

[Charlie Ross]

Yes, fell off cleanly... And fixing it, is not on the to-do list

[David Weaver]

You're better off. Bases suck anyway.

Hey!! What did you think of the kingwood base?

[Chris Griggs]

Hey!! What did you think of the kingwood base?

Actually, I meant to tell you I really liked your homemade base you put on your Shaptons. Far far better than anything that comes on stone. Kinda made me want to make ones like that for my other stones. Although, I still wouldn't want that on my soakers, takes up too much room in the soak tub.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, no good for soakers. Had one on the bester, comes off after a few months in the tub and you have to re-do the epoxy. Not like it's difficult, you just let it dry mix some on the base and then squish it back down.

The one on the 1000 shapton came off at one point after about 5 years, had to reglue it, too, but I dropped it off the bench and lucked out that it landed on the wood and didn't crack. That probably had something to do with it coming loose.

The one thing I didn't like about the shaptons as a beginner was that you have no touch with them at first and you can really get some stiction on the back of a tool, which could send the finer stones across the shop. With a heavy base, you don't get the feeling that you're always on the edge of disaster.

Kingwood and cocobolo have both worked fine. I found the kingwood on clearance, and it was between cutting it up for pens or doing something useful with it. It wasn't a difficult decision, but it's not a wood I'd want to use for anything else.

If you make a base for a no-soak stone, find the heaviest wood you can find cheaply. Probably a cocobolo cutoff or something that's dry. I've made them of walnut, too (since it doesn't move much when it's wet) and it just doesn't provide the same solid feel.

[Chris Griggs]

I may make them for my Chosera and my Naniwa Snow White...I don't soak either very often and never for very long. The SW can get kinda grabby on flat chisel backs and little extra weight to hold the stone in place would be nice. I have some mystery wood (hickory maybe) that I made a shooting board fence out of thats pretty dense, a PITA to work, and too flawed for most things...it may be perfect for a base. Recently someone suggested basic hot glue for attaching the stone, I'll have to give that a try.

[Steve Friedman]

I soaked that same stone in a tub for a week and the base fell off?:eek:
Cool. I was wondering how to remove that base! Putting it in water tonight. Takes up way too much storage space and prevents you from using both sides of the stone.

Steve

[Paul McGaha]

I really like the stone pond from Veritas. Can hold up to 2 stones in the clamps while a couple of stones can soak.

Also comes with a piece of safety glass that's about 1/4" x 9" x 12". I use the glass plate w sandpaper. I tend to use sandpaper instead of stones less than 1000 grit.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=33027&cat=1,43072,67175,67176&ap=1

PHM

[Derek Cohen]

Actually, it's the Select II #6000 that's dyed 'orange' as if it's undyed, it's visually identical to the Select II #10000.

It's the only Sigma Power stone that is coloured in any way, and the only one that's affected by water or typical household chemicals.

Stu.

Thanks Stu. It was a while back ..

For anyone wondering what the stone grits are .. I purchased the 6000 and 10000 Sigma Power from Stu with the intention of paring them with my Shapton 1000. The Shapton 1000 is a very decent stone and I did not believe there was any need to change it. On the other hand the 5000 and 12000 were less than excellent on A2 and beyond, so planned to replace those, which I did. And then Stu sent me a gift of the 1200/13000 Sigma combination. Now only that stone and the 6000 get used!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bruce Mack]

Charlie- why the attack? Remove the burr please.

[John Coloccia]

Here's one possible answer:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=anal%20retentive

Charlie, you've managed to become the first, and only, person across 4 message boards and many years that has ever made it to my ignore. List.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie, you've managed to become the first, and only, person across 4 message boards and many years that has ever made it to my ignore. List.

Come on guys, just a joke..... I promise that's how Derek would take it and that's certainly how it was meant. I'll delete.

[David Weaver]

I'll delete.

This is new!!

[Charlie Stanford]

Just digging Derek for being persnickety, anal, about his waterstones (or whatever they technically are called). The truth of the matter is that he's right - they appear to require that sort of treatment but they give back in terms of good edges I'm sure.

No big deal.

I'll post a picture of my honing set up later. You can all get a good laugh. The bearings are so bad in my 1960s Craftsman grinder you have to wear hearing protection when it's running. I think it might be time for a new one.

[Derek Cohen]

Charlie

I had a good chuckle.

What I find particularly interesting is that anal people are particularly turned on by POV (point of view) pushing.

Now whom do we know around here that is best at POV? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Gary Muto]

Charlie

I had a good chuckle.

What I find particularly interesting is that anal people are particularly turned on by POV (point of view) pushing.

Now whom do we know around here that is best at POV? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,
I don't think he knows with whom he is dealing. BTW, I got a bigger chuckle from your posting.

[David Weaver]

Oh, charlie knows. There's a long history - like a decade. One that would not lead you to conclude anything is a friendly joke by default.

[Charlie Stanford]

Charlie

I had a good chuckle.

What I find particularly interesting is that anal people are particularly turned on by POV (point of view) pushing.

Now whom do we know around here that is best at POV? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I definitely push a POV. I wanted to laugh at the notion that you think you don't, but then I became a little disturbed by that. You really think you don't, do you?

Maybe we should stop. I think we've passed the point of humor.

[Charlie Stanford]

This is new!!

Here's a picture of my crappy set up. The green box holds a Norton hard black Arky, the blue box a No. 1 Washita (both just made from a piece of SYP 2x10 sitting around the shop). My almost 4 year old daughter loves to paint and I needed to box both of those stones. Medium and fine Norton synthetic stones round out the collection and they are a nice sliding fit on the lumberyard pine tray; I don't use them that close to each other.

[Chris Griggs]

Here's a picture of my crappy set up. The green box holds a Norton hard black Arky, the blue box a No. 1 Washita. My almost 4 year old daughter loves to paint and I needed to box both of those stones. Medium and fine Norton synthetic stones round out the collection and they are a nice sliding fit on lumberyard pine tray; I don't use them that close together to each other.

Looks like a great setup! The painted boxes are pretty neat. I have an oil stone setup I use as an alternative to my waterstones when its cold in the shop or if my waterstones are put away and I don't feel like getting them out. Pretty much the same thing...norton medium india, Pike no. 1 Washita (thanks to Mr. Weaver), Halls black arky, and my palm. I have a cheap plastic ($10) diamond plate I used to refresh the surface of the washita which keeps it cutting fast enough that I rarely used use my medium. Coupled with my 6 inch bench grinder it makes for a very space efficient and effective system. The 3 stones sit in their cases on a cinder block (that gets used for heavy flattening of oilstones when needed) at the foot of my bench so they're always close at hand and very convenient.

[Charlie Stanford]

Thanks. I have an old 6" Craftsman grinder not in the photo. It's on its last leg - bearings are howling like a banshee.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks. I have an old 6" Craftsman grinder not in the photo. It's on its last leg - bearings are howling like a banshee.

I don't know how I ever got buy without my 6" bench grinder. I have the little 6" Porter cable (http://www.lowes.com/pd_78808-46069-PCB525BG_4294707797__?productId=3162491&Ns=p_product_avg_rating%7C1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_avg_rating%7C1&facetInfo=) that lowes sells. At $80 its not the least expensive grinder out there but mine runs pretty smoothly and the tool rests that come on it are good enough that I haven't bothered to buy or build an alternative. If I already had home-made or after market rests I probably would have gone even cheaper and just gotten the whatever $30-$40 grinder lowes or HD is selling these day. I find inexpensive 6" grinders to be endlessly valuable.

[Charlie Stanford]

I actually have my eye on that same grinder or the Skil they also carry for a little less money. I certainly won't get anything more elaborate than the P-C model you have. I just need something that will spin a wheel, you know what I mean?

Maybe I need to buy a $300 dial gauge to measure the runout on the thing. :)

[Chris Griggs]

I actually have my eye on that same grinder or the Skil they also carry for a little less money. I certainly won't get anything more elaborate than the P-C model you have. I just need something that will spin a wheel, you know what I mean?

Maybe I need to buy a $300 dial gauge to measure the runout on the thing. :)

LOL. The P-C is great. The rests are flimsey but they work. I filed the teeth of mine so that I can adjust it any way I want. I've also heard of putting a washer in the rest adjuster as an alternative to filing off the teeth. The variable speed I used for I think the first week I had it, but its been on full speed ever since and I'm still using the 46 grit gray wheel that came on it...the 60 grit is in a box somewhere. If space is a premium the little water container on the front is actually kind of handy as is the little clip on the back that holds the dresser that comes with it. Mines pretty stripped down at the moment. I don't even have anything on the second spindle. If you already have rests, a dresser and don't desire variable speed I bet the Skil is just as good. The stupid cheap little features on the P-C were handy for me as it was my first grinder, but at the end of the day its still a cheap BORG grinder and I bet the guts aren't any better than those on the Skil (Of course, I don't have the Skil so I could be mistakin). I will say that the $80 I spent on the P-C is some of the best money I've spent on woodworking stuff.

[Charlie Stanford]

LOL. The P-C is great. The rests are flimsey but they work. I filed the teeth of mine so that I can adjust it any way I want. I've also heard of putting a washer in the rest adjuster as an alternative to filing off the teeth. The variable speed I used for I think the first week I had it, but its been on full speed ever since and I'm still using the 46 grit gray wheel that came on it...the 60 grit is in a box somewhere. If space is a premium the little water container on the front is actually kind of handy as is the little clip on the back that holds the dresser that comes with it. Mines pretty stripped down at the moment. I don't even have anything on the second spindle. If you already have rests, a dresser and don't desire variable speed I bet the Skil is just as good. The stupid cheap little features on the P-C were handy for me as it was my first grinder, but at the end of the day its still a cheap BORG grinder and I bet the guts aren't any better than those on the Skil (Of course, I don't have the skill so I could be mistakin). I will say that the $80 I spent on the P-C is some of the best money I've spent on woodworking stuff.

I think you've sold me on the Porter Cable...

[Chris Griggs]

I think you've sold me on the Porter Cable...

Oh man, that's a lot of pressure. I hope you like it...otherwise I'll never hear the end of it!;)

[Charlie Stanford]

Oh man, that's a lot of pressure. I hope you like it...otherwise I'll never hear the end of it!;)

Absolutely no worries on that.... it'll work fine I'm sure. I'll let you know when I pull the trigger. Could be today. I'm about to go out and use the Sears grinder in just a few minutes. It surely can't have much life left.

[Chris Griggs]

Absolutely no worries on that.... it'll work fine I'm sure. I'll let you know when I pull the trigger. Could be today. I'm about to go out and use the Sears grinder in just a few minutes. It surely can't have much life left.

Yeh, pretty sure you'll like it...its definitely exceeded my initial expectations of it. Let us know how it goes...

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've got the same P/C grinder Chris mentions, and I'd probably say pretty much everything he says about it. Only issue I've had is that the softer aluminum used in the tool rests can easily get grit embedded in it, which can be annoying sometimes.

[Chris Griggs]

Here's a picture of my crappy set up. The green box holds a Norton hard black Arky, the blue box a No. 1 Washita (both just made from a piece of SYP 2x10 sitting around the shop). My almost 4 year old daughter loves to paint and I needed to box both of those stones. Medium and fine Norton synthetic stones round out the collection and they are a nice sliding fit on the lumberyard pine tray; I don't use them that close to each other.

Hey Charlie!!!!!!....??????????????????????

Is that the Wood Is Good Synthetic Strop I see in your sharpening set up with their AlOx powder. If so how do you like it? Been curious about both the strop and the powder. If not, what is it... sure doesn't look like leather (or maybe it is and its just light in color). I can't tell from the photo.

[Charlie Stanford]

Hey Charlie!!!!!!....??????????????????????

Is that the Wood Is Good Synthetic Strop I see in your sharpening set up with their AlOx powder. If so how do you like it? Been curious about both the strop and the powder. If not, what is it... sure doesn't look like leather (or maybe it is and its just light in color). I can't tell from the photo.

It is indeed the Wood is Good composition strop with AlOx powder. Seems to work fine. I clamp the strop to the bench with a baby C clamp and give it hell. You don't need much of the powder; it'll put a nice shine on the steel and lays waste to any rag left over from honing. I don't like that waxy crap. The little bit of powder wipes or blows right off. I clean the strop with Windex and it doesn't seem the worse for it. I think I'm going to buy another one and stick it in a drawer.

[Chris Griggs]

It is indeed the Wood is Good composition strop with AlOx powder. Seems to work fine. I clamp the strop to the bench with a baby C clamp and give it hell. You don't need much of the powder; it'll put a nice shine on the steel and lays waste to any rag left over from honing.

Cool! Good to know that its a good product. Been wondering about it for a while. Thanks for the input.

[Charlie Stanford]

Sure, they aren't expensive. You ought to give it a try. The corners can be used on certain sweeps and shapes of carving tools too.

[Chris Griggs]

Sure, they aren't expensive. You ought to give it a try. The corners can be used on certain sweeps and shapes of carving tools too.

Yeah they're only like $25 bucks. I don't know why I've dragged my feet on buying one. Even if it did suck it would be far from the biggest waste of money I've put towards a woodworking product. It funny how I can be so loose with my woodworking money half the time, and such a friggin cheapskate other times (Woodworkers in general I think are a bit bipolar when it comes to spending). I just need to order one.

[Brian Ashton]

Maybe I've missed something cause my stones have been soaking for years. Some I've had since the mid 80s and have only been out of water to make the 3 month journey to Australia. The minimum any of them have been in water is about 6 years. So why is soaking bad for them.

[Chris Griggs]

Maybe I've missed something cause my stones have been soaking for years. Some I've had since the mid 80s and have only been out of water to make the 3 month journey to Australia. The minimum any of them have been in water is about 6 years. So why is soaking bad for them.
.
Its not. Some stone shouldn't permanently soaked (shaptons, choseras) as it can harm the binders, but many can be left in water seemingly indefinitely without any issue.