Cabinet Saw Upgrade

[Michael Gabbay]

Ok here's the age old question... which saw should I get. Almost like asking which full size pick up should I get. ;) It's a religous war.

So here goes....

A few years ago, when I finally had space for a real shop I started to buy the bigger tools. I started with the Delta contractor saw (cast iron wings and b-meyer fence). Now I'm feeling that it is time for an upgrade. The purchase would be in the fall to winter timeframe (need to save the pennies). Since I'm in a basement shop with no direct outside access weight can be an issue. Although cabinet saws can be broken down so maybe its not as big of an issue.

My choices are, in no particular order:

- Delta Unisaw, does not need to be an X5 roughly $1500 - 1800
- PM 66, a lot of saw roughly $2250 - 2400
- General 650 - roughly $2100
- Bridgewood - roughly $1400
- Jet - roughly $1600

I'm generally not partial to Grizzly since I'm an hour and a half from Wilke and can get a Bridgewood just as easily. Also, I've looked a little at the SawStop and I'm not totally convinced it is the saw for me. I'm very traditional with my tools and it seems to have a lot more electronics than I care to have.

Obviously cost is a factor so the PM 66 may be too much saw for me since I'm just a hobbyest. The regular PM 66 w/50 inch fence runs around $2250 - $2400.

The Unisaw is tried and true and you can get parts fairly easily for now.

The General is Canadian made (a good thing, keep our cousins to the North employed!) so parts should be fairly easy to get in the future. The dealer network is a little sparse but there is one near by as well as Wilke.

The Bridgewood is a very nice machine but made in Taiwan. Although sometimes the Taiwan machines are actually better made (no slam on American made goods). My big concern would be with parts and motor quality.

Same is true for the Jet as is the Bridgewood I think.

So is the PM 66 worth the extra $400 +?

Has the quality of the Unisaw dropped over the years? There still seems to be a great following.

Are the Taiwanese saws a good value and will they last over the long haul?

Since I'm not a professional and only get 4 - 8 hours a week in the shop I don't know if I'll regret not having the PM 66.

Thanks for helping me start me sift through the choices! :)

Mike

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Mike, out of your saws, I have only seen the Bridgewood in person. John Miliunas has one and it sure is a sweet looking and sounding saw!

When I upgrade, I will be giving the Bridgewood a serious thought, with the Unisaw coming in a close second.

I like you, wonder if I would really need the PM66, sure it is a lot of saw, but compared to the brigewood, it is at least $850 more! With that, you can put the down payment on another great tool!

[Mark Singer]

Of that lot there are some good ones...I have the PM 66 and it has been great for 10 years now. The General , and Jet are fine saws also.

[Mark Carlson]

I just went thru the same decision. Over the course of 6 months, I went from the Powermatic 66, to the Unisaw to finally the General. I got my General 650 two weeks ago from a dealership about 10 minutes from my house. I highly reccommend the General. All the saws your considering are nice machines.

By the way you can get a General from Wilke.

[mike malone]

Mikey...always go with the resale value. PM66's go at a premium, deserved or otherwise, and have good resale value. But begs the question...why get a new one when you can save a bundle getting an older one or a rebuidable saw?
There's no better way to get to know the saw than by rebuilding it. They are fairly simple machines.
mike

[scott spencer]

You've got a nice list going. I'd also ad the GI cabinet saws to the mix. 50-250 & 50-260. Affordable and very good machines for a hobbyist, and you still get to deal with that General family owned business.

[Chris Mann]

I've got a bridgewood. A great saw, but I'd probably get a unisaw or pm66 next time. Both for resale value and availability of aftermarket parts (like a pop out splitter). It's a great saw, just something to think about.

[lou sansone]

I think that all of the saws you have mentioned are Taiwanese made. I could be wrong on that, but I thought the even general was now made overseas. Except for the bridgewood, I have seen them all and they all seem pretty decent to me. I suppose there are some differences that others will point out.

lou

[lou sansone]

Mikey...always go with the resale value. PM66's go at a premium, deserved or otherwise, and have good resale value. But begs the question...why get a new one when you can save a bundle getting an older one or a rebuidable saw?
There's no better way to get to know the saw than by rebuilding it. They are fairly simple machines.
mike

I agree with mike on the rebuild if needed. The only thing I would try to avoid is a top that is rusted real bad. You will have to find someone to grind it for you, or live with a sandblasted surface like my saw has.

lou

[Frank Pellow]

I had to make the same choice earlier this year. As well as those you listed, I also seriously considered both Saw Stop and Laguna (mostly because they both have riving knives -a safety feature I really like).

I chose the General 650 (the lask of a riving knife being the biggest problem that I have with it). It's a great saw and was perfectly aligned as shipped .

[Frank Pellow]

I think that all of the saws you have mentioned are Taiwanese made. I could be wrong on that, but I thought the even general was now made overseas. Except for the bridgewood, I have seen them all and they all seem pretty decent to me. I suppose there are some differences that others will point out.

lou
The General 650 is not Taiwanese made. General International is made oversees, not General. Unlike many other companies, General makes a clear distiction between the things they make in Canada and the things that they make elsewhere.

[Dev Emch]

Oh Boy, here we go again.:)

Your a hobbyist and you like good tools? Do you like the feel of yesterday's qaulity? Will the footprint and layout of a unisaw work for you?

Then you may wish to contact Wilke and hunt down a general. If you can get a nice genral 350, you will be happy. I was curious about the new 650. Whats up with that. In looking through the catalog, it turns out that the 650 is a left tilt form of the 350. Otherwise, same saw. When it comes down to it, the general 350/650 is my all time favorate unisaw clone. When it comes to high end hobby and light industrial, general of canada is one of my favorate. You will also notice that general is not loaded full of lots of plastic kitch and do-dads. The fit and finish is flawless and the machine work is done very accurately. I used to own lots of general including an 8 inch jointer and a 20 inch planer. The only reason I sold these items was to upgrade to heavier machines like olivers with more capacity which as a hobbyist you dont always need. I still have a general drill press and 15 inch bandsaw.

I actually went through the general plant in Drummondville, Quebec. It is an old school facility. Also due to some familiy connections, general gets their castings from a foundry that is meehanite certified through the automotive industry. They make lots of brake components in Canada and if you look on your new set of Raybestos rotors, many of them are made in canada as well. So no worries if general can tack on the foundry jobs to brake rotor and brake drum jobs. Thats the way to do it! Meehanite is inherently more stable as I had posted in an earlier post. General of canada **DOES** use meehanite for the locally made machines. Who knows what is being used to make the General International machines. I dont care as I would not buy one.

The motors used are either Baldor or Leeson both of which are excellent motors. Given my choice, I would choose Baldor and you can make this request if you order new. I ordered my old planer with a 5 HP single phase Baldor motor and actually speced it out. Not a problem.

More and more general dealers are beginning to show up but the big three that I have dealt with are 1). Ashman Technical in Canada, 2). Wilke Machinery, and 3). The Woodsmith Store in Iowa. Ashman was one of the best to deal with and Morris Booker really helped me out in setting up the deals. The Woodsmith store is also excellent and you guys have to see the demo shops they have set up there. The pro shop is full of general and its killer! I will post my vacation pictures on this shop. Look out Lou, you have competition:)

I have a photo/brochure in my dirty paper file of a general 350 with a robland sliding table. That is a rightous trick set up for this saw and one worthy of consideration! But you need to go through Laguna now to get the robland tables.

For those with rusty tables, here are a few notes. First, I use the electroysis method of rust removal and BOY DOES IT WORK NICE! You mix up a garbage can with water and wash soda. Then hook up the NEGATIVE lead of your battery charger or welder to the item and toss in a couple of rods of rebar and wire them together on the POSITIVE LEAD. Turn it on. Things start to bubble and fiz. In 10 to 20 or so hours, the rust has turned into black oxide and a few hours later, wipes off. The paint has been stripped and your left with a nice leatherly texture of the cast iron and the machined surfaced look like they were done yesterday. Here is a photo of a DeWalt GE carriage and bearing holder after its been stripped this way. None of the machined surfaces were hurt. Sandblasting really roughs up the surface esp. if your using abrasive sand and not walnut shells or glass beads. This way seams to work better but is more labor intensive.

Lou there is one way you can restore that surface without having to beg grizzly in PA to acess that thompson linear grinder they have. Appearantly, amazon.com sells diamond sharpening plates. These have two different grits on both sides. That is a total of four grits. Start out with the rough grit and use lots of water to keep things lubricated. There will be lots of swarf at first. Keep the plates clean as you go. Also, there is a handle included with the plates and you should use this as a lapping handle. The plates are about 10 inches long are made by DMT. Use a consistent but varying group of patterns. Lengthwise full run. Left diag. full run. Right diag. full run. Horizontal full run. You get the idea. Work your way from 220 to 1200 grit. Total of four grits. Check your work with a straight edge. Also as you begin to work on a blasted table, you will notice a surface effect not unlike that of a jointer on a bad edge. Bit here and bit there with rough in the deeps and smoother on the bumps. Eventually you will have a smooth surface. As you begin, you will notice where your valleys and and hills are.... areas of wear and areas where there may be grinder warp. If your doing a whole table saw for example, rely on a good straight edge from starrett or brown & sharpe or mitatoyo. Ebay does have some good deals on these once in a while. I got a 36 inch B&S camel back from them once. Ugly looking thing with grease and dirt but turned out to be hyper accurate! The last pix is of a restoration of a jointer whose table was done with this very process. Thanks Jon Preston.

[Frank Pellow]

Oh Boy, here we go again.:)
...
The motors used are either Baldor or Leeson both of which are excellent motors. Given my choice, I would choose Baldor and you can make this request if you order new.
...

I did not ask, and I got a Baldor.

[Michael Gabbay]

Guys -

Thanks for the feedback. Dev, Frank, Mark, I have only briefly looked at the General 650 at the Chantilly WW Show this spring. It was a very nice looking saw. I might have to take a trip up to Wilke to see them against the Bridgewood.
I've considered a used Unisaw or PM. But they generally have such a high resale value that it is almost more cost effective to buy new. I'm wondering if the new Unisaws will continue to have such a good resale.
Thanks, Mike

[CPeter James]

I wanted to upgrade my table saw and came across an ad for a PM66 with custom out feed and right side table and storage cabinet for $1,000. I bought it on the basis of an emailed photo. It even came with a Forrest WWII. I put $40.00 into it, 2 new arbor bearings and 2 belts. Polished up the cabinet and waxed the table and works as good as new. Keep looking, they are out there. The same week I picked up a Performax "Supermax 25-2" for $800.00 (cost is $3600 new).

CPeter

[lou sansone]

The General 650 is not Taiwanese made. General International is made oversees, not General. Unlike many other companies, General makes a clear distiction between the things they make in Canada and the things that they make elsewhere.

Dear Frank
thanks for the correction, sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Dev
Thanks for the recommendation on the diamond plates

lou

[JayStPeter]

I chose a Unisaw because I got a good deal at a show. If the Bridgewood was around I might've chosen it instead. I thought it was real nice it at the last show I attended.

One thing that led me to the Unisaw is that pretty much every aftermarket device is targeted at it. So, you never have to worry about if it fits. The PM is also nice in this way. But, if I was going to spend that much, I had decided I'd kick in a little more and get the Laguna so I would have proper DC and a riving knife.
Delta sells a nice splitter for it for around $30 (comparable to Bies IMO). So, factor that into the decision process if you plan on getting a Bies or other splitter for whatever saw you buy.

Jay

[Michael Gabbay]

Frank / Mark -

Some questions about the General. I've read that the dust collection is not all that good. Apparently the cabinet does not have a sloped floor. Is that still the case and does it do a good job with DC?

Also, how do you like the fence? I have a B-meyer on my contractor saw and really like it. The General is a clone of the B-meyer from what I can see.

From an "investment" perspective I think the General, PM, or Delta is probably the better bet. This will be my last saw and it will be one that I want to ultimatly give to one of my sons.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Kent Parker]

Michael,

I recently purchased a General International 50-260. The dust collection port has a sloping chute before it. The fence is a "General" made in Canada. I've owned and used the bies fence and can not tell the diffrence between the two.

KP

[Mark Carlson]

Hi Michael,

The General now uses a sloped floor to direct the dust towards the hole. The dust collection from the cabinet works fine. For really good dust collection you need to get the dust from above with an overhead guard. The General fence seems to be exactly the same as the B-meyer. My friend just got a Unisaw with the B-meyer and I cant tell the difference between the two.

I had always wanted a Powermatic 66 or a Unisaw but ended up getting a saw I had never heard of. I researched heavly on the net and couldn't find anyone with a bad thing to say about the Generals. (Well except for the manuals) Good luck with your search. ~mark

[Frank Pellow]

Frank / Mark -

Some questions about the General. I've read that the dust collection is not all that good. Apparently the cabinet does not have a sloped floor. Is that still the case and does it do a good job with DC?

Also, how do you like the fence? I have a B-meyer on my contractor saw and really like it. The General is a clone of the B-meyer from what I can see.

From an "investment" perspective I think the General, PM, or Delta is probably the better bet. This will be my last saw and it will be one that I want to ultimatly give to one of my sons.

Thanks again,
Mike
My General 650 has a sloped floor. I like the fence very much.

[scott spencer]

... I've read that the dust collection is not all that good. Apparently the cabinet does not have a sloped floor. Is that still the case and does it do a good job with DC?

Also, how do you like the fence? I have a B-meyer on my contractor saw and really like it. The General is a clone of the B-meyer from what I can see.
Hi Mike - A few years ago there was a review by one of the mags that noted that the General's DC was not that good. They've since changed to a sloping bottom as others have mentioned.

The scoop I've heard several times on the General fence is that it's a licensed Biesemeyer. The story as told by a Delta rep and a General rep is that once upon a time General made the Biesemeyer. When Delta bought the name, General retained the right to make it for their saws minus the Biese name. If you like the Biese there's no reason to think you won't like the General fence. The General made Biese is an option on all General and GI saws.

[Steve Cox]

While I have no problem with the General saws (truth told, I'd like one :) ) my saw is a Jet cabinet saw. I picked it up from my local scratch and dent for $1600 which included the saw, a mobile base, and Jet sliding table attachment which has been wonderful. Basically the Jet is a Delta clone and while it may not be as nice or last as long as a Delta, the Deltas I've seen in industrial environments last 50 yrs or more. I'm just a one man shop and am 40 yrs old. I only need the thing to last about 30. I think it will do just fine. I don't want to pass the saw along to my son since I hope to need it long after he wants to buy one of his own. Plus, I hope he gets one with a riving knife and Saw Stop technology.

[Dev Emch]

Scott...

Your correct in the sense that general has a history of "Job Shopping". In fact, certain leads suggest that general was actually building unisaws for delta at one time when delta was not able to meet full demand. That is how they learned to build a saw that is so close to a vintage unisaw! But like many of these old school woodworking companies, change was a very dirty word. Look at northfield. The #4 tablesaw and the HD jointers are virtually unchanged in over 70 years or so of production. The only real changes came when certain vendor supplied parts become unavailable. For example, when Louis Allis went under and could not provide motors, changes had to be made. Or when other OEM guard contracts were entered into, certain changes had to be made. But I can take parts off a 1949 northfield jointer and use them in a 1999 jointer without hardly any modification or alteration. As to the fence, if you like the orig. Bies. fence, you will like the general fence. If anything, I would say that the general version has slightly tighter tolerances than those offered by delta.

[Phil Ordway]

Whatever you look at, new or used, you should have a straightedge and a dial indicator. I recently sold a drill press to a PM66 (new model) owner who was unhappy with arbor run out and table flatness. My local surface grinder won't touch any table less than 5 years old - the castings take a while to stabilize. My 25 year old PM66 works fine. By the way, the General is not a Unisaw clone. The arbor assembly is a different engineering design. I have heard criticism or motor replacement costs for Unisaws.

[Dev Emch]

Hi Phil...

1). Your right about the castings. Go back and read my posts on meehanite and planed tables.

2). Your right about the differences between general 350 saws and unisaws. It is a real pain to learn about that wacky motor style and some other more minor differences. I should have written.... That is how they learned **NOT** how to build unisaws. That was during a period of time when it was uncool to just copy another company's designs verbatum and the only americans in china were those wearing flying tiger blood chits or shortly thereafter. General had to put their own stink on the design and these changes turned into improvements which actually make the general saw more desireable than the unisaw. That is why it is my favorate unisaw "clone". Not my favorate saw. To that end, I hold up for your inspection the oliver 88, the martin T-17 and the martin T-73.

3). The PM66 with the issues cited was a new model and as such, has questionable metalurgy at this time. Older PM66 machines were actually cast in McMinville and used the correct metalurgy. I am not just blowing smoke out the side of my ears here. There is a difference! As old as your PM66 is, is the table flat?

[Greg Mann]

My local surface grinder won't touch any table less than 5 years old - the castings take a while to stabilize.



1). Your right about the castings. Go back and read my posts on meehanite and planed tables.

With all due respect guys, this is the stuff of urban legend.

Phil, I suspect your local guy does not want to be bothered.

Dev, How on earth can we make cast iron blocks, that get poured on Monday and drive off a line on Friday, and then run for a hundred thousand miles (a million if it's a class 8 truck engine) if we need to wait all this time for stress to go away?

Greg

[Greg Ladd]

Michael,

All are good saws but there are some features which are better than others.

I debated this same issue a few years back. I had recently rebuilt a 1967 vintage unisaw and put a new Bies fence on it.

I was fortunate enough to get some extra disposable cash and decided to get a new saw. As it turned out, I had both a new spare trunnion and the rebuilt unisaw trunnions to compare. The new trunnion was considerable lighter weight than the original unisaw trunnion. This told me that the newer Unisaws were not as heavy as the older models. Not really a surprise, but it was nice to be able to visually and tactically compare the two. I decided the newer Unisaws would not be my first choice but were a great design.

Next I looked a the PM66. They were selling at premium prices and were well made other than some rought castings. There were some reports off tables not being flat. I couldn't justify the added money as the castings on the General were very similar in heaviness.

I then looked at the General 350. I was blown away. The castings were considerably heavier than the Delta and in some respects better than the PM66 and were the made with the Meehanite casting protocals. They were cleaner and as well machined as the PM66. At that point in time, the General was $300-$400 less money also. I had never heard or read of a single complaint with a General machine other than the cost.

Again I was lucky enough to have the Bies fence and the General clone side by side to compare. They are virtually identical -certainly no differences that cause any issues at all.

My General 350 is a model prior to the current ones so dust collection is not as good as the new ones. But I will say there are some design factors ( a 'shroud' around the blade among others) on the General that make it very easy to improve dust collection if needed. These design factors are also part of the reason that the General 350 & 650's are so much heavier than the Delta and Jet models. Much better in my opinion. Also, the attention to details such as fit and finish on the General was much better than any of the others; not even close really. As a matter of fact, I think the paint job on my 350 is better than any of the cars I own. If they take that much care just to paint the thing i am sure the machining is absolutely first-rate.

As you can tell I am strongly biased in favor of the General 350/650 models. I don't think you can buy a better saw for the money. The General 650 is listed on General's website at $2069 but that probably doesn't include shipping.

You did say that you weren't considering the SawStop. I have not seen the SawStop although I have not heard or read one negative comment from anyone who owns one. The SawStop is more money by the time you add a fence and extension table-close to $2950.

Hope this helps. As others have said, they are all good saws. In my opinion, one is better than the others for the money.

Greg

[Dev Emch]

To Greg Ladd...

Everything you have said is spot on. You will have to work serious overtime to find a unisaw footprint saw that can hold its own to the general 350/650. The martin can but you can also multiply the general's price by a factor of 10 if you wish to play with these guys. OUCH! This one hurt! That is why I say its my favorate unisaw type table saw. As I said, I have replaced a few generals but it took the likes of oliver and martin and porter to do it. And that is not playing fair in the hobbyist realm!

To Greg Mann...

If you guys wish to see how an engine block is made, check out this website URL. These guys are making high performance Austin Healy racing blocks and the woodworking on the patterns alone is worth the internet trip. It will blow you away.

http://www.dmdaustralia.com.au/block1.html

1). The main reason general can use meehanite and not get slaughtered with the meehanite registration and certification process is that they depend on the automotive industry to provide them with this via the foundaries that they use. Just like my trucking connections, I can move heavy machines around the country at good prices because I know how to get LTL rates from certain truckers. That is Less Than Load. It means that I dont have to pay the whole fuel bill to move one item. I tack the item onto several smaller other loads. Most if not all of which have nothing to do with me. Same with the foundaries. By adding a few woodworking machines into the thousands of brake and engine parts being poured, general can get some good pricing on the foundary costs and get meehanite to boot. It helps if one of your sons owns one such foundary!

2). I have already posted this before. Check out this URL and then tell me I am spouting an urban legend.

www.meehanite.com

3). Engine blocks are not as accurate as you think they are. Go to the local hardinge/bridgeport dealer and carefully inspect the ways on that milling machine. Make sure its new as older ones have this worn away and you may not know where to look on these. That frosty looking surface on the ways is called "HAND SCRAPING". Engine blocks are very crude and they are not machined nor hand scraped. In fact, the honing process on engine blocks is designed to make them loose. When the first chevy V-8 engines came out, they did not last long. Turned out, the clearances between the cylinder and piston were TOO accurate and this was causing and oiling failure. The GM cure was to tell the techs to pour BORAX down the carberator. GO ASK GM FOR THE SERVICE FLYER BEFORE YOU LABEL THIS AN URBAN LEGEND AS WELL. What this did was scratch up the cylinders. Today, you see this effect in the cross hatching done just prior to fitting the pistons.

Another thing to think about is the actual design. I have a design manuel for meehanite parts design that goes into how to design a part for stability. The first step is to use meehanite alloys. If the raw ingredient is not stable, nothing else you do will help. Second, you need to examine the thickness of various items. Where items go from thin to thick is a problem area. Where areas are very thick, that is also a problem area. Lastly, tables are problem areas. They are very thin in terms of aspect ratio. A unisaw table is no more than 3/8 inch thick. So this large but thin area is unstable to begin with. To make it more stable, you add webing on the underside. Go look under your table and check out all the webing in that casting! A more stable approach is to use box core design. Go look a few posts up on this very same thread and you will see a northfield jointer. Those tables are box cored. They are the most stable jointer table ever made because of it.

Today, they have software that can predict the thermal cooling of a casting given a finite element computer model. It can also predict the eddy turbulence of iron flowing into the mold. Excessive turbulence will agitate gas and entrain it into the casting. This is bad.

So as you can see, making a table saw is not as simple as melting down a few old chevys and an old garden rake. If you use gray iron, you may need to wait many years before it stabilizes out. But then, the old american machine tool makers like Bridgeport, LeBlond, Hardinge, Bullard, Kearney Trecker etc. all knew this. Clearly, the clientle demanded this. But if we live in a culture where this information is labeled as an urban legend, well, there you go. Melt down a few tuna fish cans, toss in some plastic parts and force the govenerment to attach that saw stop brake and charge a few hundred dollars more than a real table saw because today's customer is just too stupid to know better.

Well, my friend, I dont think that is the case. The general 350/650 and the northfield #4 are the only two table saws still made in north america. The rest are just imports now whose real quality picture is blured and cloudy.

[Greg Mann]

"Do not tell fish stories where people know you, but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish." Mark Twain

I will not comment again on this because it is OT to the thread. FWIW, Dev, I do admire your typing abilities.

Greg

[Michael Gabbay]

Holy Cow! :eek: This is more detailed feedback than I could have ever imagined.


As I mentioned, at the last Chantilly WW show in the spring, I briefly looked at the General. I really did not poke around enough to get a good feel for the saw. But, based on the quick once over I did, I really liked what I saw. Plus at the time I was not ready to research new saws.

After reading up more on the General 650 I have a couple of more questions. It looks to have a 2 belt versus a 3 belt system. Is there any advantage or disadvantage to this?

Also, I've read that the extension wings come preassembled and shimed from the factory. Since I would need to move this down a flight of stairs to the shop I will need to dismantle as much as I can to reduce the weight and overall size. Other than replacing the shims to the wing where they came from is there any problem with dismantling the wings?

Has anyone had to dismantle their General like this? Is the weight manageable?

Dev - It looks like you are a walking encyclopedia on saws and castings. I might drop you an email as I get closer to the purchase if you don't mind.

Thanks again everyone. This has been extremely helpful for me.

Mike

[Dev Emch]

To Michael Gabbay and others....

I have owned or still own a 34-01 floor drill press (woodsmith store, still have), a 490 15 inch bandsaur (woodsmith, still have), a 480 8 inch jointer (ashman tech, sold it), a 330 20 in planer (ashman, sold it), an SS-032 heavy duty wood shaper (ashman, sold it).

The reason I sold these was to upgrade. I now have a 24 inch oliver jointer and a 20 inch porter 300 jointer both of which I got used. The planer was upgraded to a 24 inch 299 oliver planer which I got used. Lastly, I regretfully had to sell the shaper when I upgraded to the Hofmann TFS-1200 shaper. See Belated Gloat to view that the shaper.

I bought a unisaw at the woodworking show. It was one of the first Norm Abram specials and aside from the cool looking engraved placards, I was almost plotting its sale the first day it came home! On my complaining to schlosser about a number of issues including a warped top, the sales guy made a snide coment that was sorta like... "well, what do you expect for the money, if you want perfection, then buy a general!". Up until this point, I thought general was just another asian clone. Wrong! It was one of the then remaining big three and upon further research, was yards ahead of either. They did not have general international and were willing to make deals through ashman that could not be beat. So I began buying general and even made the trip north to vist the factory. As I said, there is nothing made by delta or powermatic that could hold a candle to the SS-032 shaper! And when it comes to the others wearing green, blue, white and gray but devoid of US flags, well, its not even close.

But times change and expectations change. One of the original marketing gimmicks used by powermatic was that right tilt saws are dangerous and left tilt saws are the way to go because they are safer. Does it matter that litterally dozens of table saw designs from now defunct companies were right tilt? Does it matter that professionals have been using right tilt for who knows how long? I personally do not care if its left tilt or right tilt but there is one item to consider that is real important. On a left tilt machine such as a 650, the structure of the cabinet has been compromised on the left side. That is where the motor swings out as you tilt. That is where the huge motor cover goes.

Why is this important? Well, if you install a heavy duty sliding table, where do you think you need to drill some holes? The 350 or right tilt table just lends itself better to the installation of a slider which is a sweet addition to any saw. I prefer the Robland slider but this also applies to others such as the one from excaliber, etc. Again, you need to buy the robland slider from Laguna and the general from someone else. No worries, its easy.

There are no issues with removing extension wings. Even though they are cast iron, they are not that bad. When doing this the first time, I suggest that you get some help until your personally comfortable. The important thing to remember is cast iron can crack. It does not flex like rubbery structural steel, it CRACKS. So make sure you dont drop that extension wing as it can crack! In looking at the specs, these tables are not at all large. The extension wing on my martin T-17 weighs about 150 pounds! The extension on this saw is only about 10 inches wide and as deep as the top. Should not weigh that much at all. These are taken on and off all the time so no worries.

I did eventually sell my unisaw and took a beating doing it. Why did I not buy the general 350? Simple. I found a good deal on a mint condition 1968 oliver 88-DM table saw which came out of Boeing. It even has the Douglas option which was a crank on the left side that allows the whole sliding table to move left by four inches. This is to accomadate dado blades. You see, on many of the orig. heavy duty sliders, the sliding table butts right up to the saw blade. There is no throat plate on this type of slider. If you need to rip and you need the assistance of a throat plate, I just crank the sliding portion of the top left and drop in a full length strip of wood and clamp it in place with the table. Then drive the dado stack up through this wood. Issue resolved. This saw weighs about 2500 pounds which is about ONE TON more than a unisaw or general 350. It is also equiped with a 7.5 HP direct drive, three phase motor.

So if this is what it takes to unseat the general 350 from its perch, that should say something. Today, oliver is out of business and the portion of the company that made woodworking machines is now eagle machinery and repair. They are still located in the same building as oliver was for close to 100 years in Grand Rapids, MI. Should you want a brand new oliver 88-DM, they will be glad to make one for you on custom order. They own all the original patterns, core boxes and engineering drawings as well as machine tools and machine shop jigs. The only difference is that they are no longer allowed to use the oliver name so you dont get those cool nameplates. Total cost to you without shipping? A cool $30,000 dollars! A neat special version of an oliver 88 just sold on ebay for about 2600 dollars. This one had the dual, concentric front control wheels which I believe was an option. Mine has the tilt wheel on the right side. The martin has both wheels concentric and front mounted. This means that this oliver had a larger wheel that looks like a modern sailing boat helm wheel for tilt control and a smaller centrally mounted wheel to control blade height. Rather neat option and after using the martin, something you can get used to. i have not weighed the martin T-17 but I would suspect it too tips the scale at about 2600 pounds.

So for your requirements and the fact that your shop is in the basement, the general 350/650 would be a nice setup. Personally, I would buy a general 350 and put a slider on it. In fact, if I were you and your not buying just right now, I would also put a search item into ebay and let ebay email you when a general table saw gets listed. I sold my general shaper on ebay so I know that some cool deals do show up. This ebay feature is nice in that you can go about your life and when it shows up, you get an email. Also, I kinda like the style of the older 350 better with that louvered front door. This is strictly a personal preference. It just looks cool. All of the DC issues mentioned can be solved quickly and easy so its not a concern. And lastly, general did it right so you dont have to worry about some used machine with a top that looks like a potatoe chip.

[Dev Emch]

Michael Gabbay..

A couple more points. First, you had asked a question about belt drive. Well, a three belt sheave is called a texas rope. These were used a while back when belt slippage concerns were an issue. Prior to this technology, many machines were run from leather flat belts and this drive is still considered an excellent power transfer system albeit at lower speeds. But belts have improved. My german shaper has about a 10 HP motor on it and it uses a single high performance belt. The general 350 has normally a 3 HP motor and you can get an optional 5 HP motor, (often 3 phase on this option) and the drive is more than enough.

Second, you suggested that you wish to make this your last saw. That you wish to hand this saw down to your one of your sons. Well, then the general 350 is an even better bet. One item you should look at is how does one do the electrics, the motors and the bearings. If you find proprietary, non standard items in here, your in trouble. These should be off the shelf parts that you can second source from someone other than the primary vendor (general). The electrics used on these saws are also used in everything else from car washers to floor polishers to what ever. They are standard industrial electrics. Danfoss, Allan-Bradley, Square D, Furnas, Cuttler-Hammer, etc. When I repair the broken switch on my 1970s martin T-17 this summer, I plan to just upgrade the whole electric package with an american made, Allan-Bradley setup. So here I have a german saw with american electric parts. No Problem. Should you lose a motor on the general, no worries. The motor is often a baldor or leeson and may actually be rewound by a motor shop or just replaced depending on what is cheaper. I am happily running motors from the 1930s today.
And the bearings are simple issues as well. If you can go to any bearing store in your local area and say, "Hello, I need a one of these and one of these please", that makes things easy.

What you want to avoid is "Proprietary Technology". It never works. You are ham strung by the company that made it and should that company go out of business or change the designs, they can leave you high and dry. This is esp. true in components that were never designed to be serviced. For example, in europe, you find a lot of IEC standard electric parts. They are smaller and cheaper than the old US standard known as NEMA. But I can service a NEMA part and still get coils and points for Allen Bradley items made during the 1930s and 1940s. The IEC part is a throw out, FRU or field replaceable unit. Youss pays your price ... and takes youss choice.

Much of the modern stuff showing up these days is in direct violation of what was said above. If I need to service a table saw bought from Home Depot, what the heck am I supposed to do? Or worse yet, what if I need a special upgrade or replacement part for some unique table saw made in taiwan? Boy am I in the dog house! Another case in point. Ernie Conover designed a very cool lathe with a wooden bed which was made by the alpha machine company in Ohio. That was a neat lathe! Kind of a cross between a vintage 1800s wood lathe and a modern turning machine. In fact, I am looking for one right now. Anybody got one for sale, email me please. They are no longer in business. But conover was clever in that he used the roller bearings out of a ford truck to build the headstock. So if you need bearings, just go your local car parts store. The motor drive units whether your dealing with AC or DC depending on what option it was shipped with are all still available from the companies that made them such as baldor.

The general 350/650 is built with this type of mentality. Even in a worst case failure, its at most a drive downtown to find a replacement part and often, the parts are locally stocked. Even for me where Denver is a 2 hour one way trip, I can have virtually any woodworking machine I own back on line within 6 to 8 hours including the trip. This is one reason I avoid with a vengence any form of kitsch such as special paddle switches or brakes or other wird gizzmos because if some of this goes down, it may be a week or more to get it back online. I may even have to invest machine shop time to fix something here. I am a results oriented person and I dont do well with excuses. As one of my old bosses yelled to us..."DONT TELL ME ABOUT... FIX IT!!!!" If an electrical switch, mag starter or disconnect is not an off the shelf part at Rexel/Ryall-Denver, get it out of my machine! If the bearings are not an off the shelf or overnight item at Union Bearing-Denver, get it out of my machine! This makes working on generals not only easy but child's play. Same is true of most older industrial machines.

So when it comes time to pass your general down to your son, well, truth is it may be your great grand son who gets the machine.

[Greg Narozniak]

I've got a bridgewood. A great saw, but I'd probably get a unisaw or pm66 next time. Both for resale value and availability of aftermarket parts (like a pop out splitter). It's a great saw, just something to think about.

Chris's reasoning is EXACTLY what made my decision for a Unisaw. That and the $1499 deal shipped from Woodworkers Supply :)

Good Luck with your choice and post pictures!!

[Greg Ladd]

Michael,

My General 350 is in my basement. I removed the motor , the cast iron top and the extension wings to get it into the basement. It is not a problem removing or re-installing.

I have never had an issue with the 2 belt drive system. I work in a chemical plant and we have some rather blowers (50 horse and larger) running on 1 belt.

I wouldn't be concerned with either of those issues. More improtant would be how the arbor and the pulleys are machined and as I have said before, I think the General is ahead of the others in this regard.

Greg