I like my Delta dealer but $270.00 more???

[Don Morris]

I'm in the market for an 8" jointer. If I wanted the biggest bang for the buck I would wait for the Grizzly 0586 providing it came back with reviews that matched the hype. I'm in the end stages of a home renovation so I have some time. I like the design of the parallogram jointers but I realize that I'm just a serious hobbyist and either would be fine for me. But my son likes to come over and do projects with me and wants to chip in and thus why not get a know quality machine like the DJ-20. So off I went to the local Delta dealer who said that the price for both the DJ-20 (37-350A) and the X5 were the same: $1669.00. The big sell for the X5 was that it had a Brizilian motor and thus had more torque. I would have been more impressed if he said it had a U.S. made Baldor motor. Amazon.com sells the DJ-20 (37-350A) for $1349.00 + 89 for mobile base + 10 shipping. Local dealer = X5 $50.00 shipping to my driveway. Difference of around $270.00. Isn't that a lot to ask to support the local dealer? I want to support my local dealer. They have been good support. Not cheap support. But good. Where does good support become unreasonably expensive? Without my sons willingness to chip in I was going to buy the Grizzly or a Bridgewood (the Yorkie would take up too much space in my small basement shop...Wilke isn't too far).

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Don,

First off, Welcome to the Creek! THis is a great forum and we are very lucky to have you as a member!

Basically I will say that I had the same experience as you. Local dealers were about $300 over the price for amazon. I went with Amazon because I got free shipping and the deal was pretty good. I did not order the mobile base and do not regret not ordering it. I have not moved the jointer since it arrived and I have no plans to. You may have plans to move it, but mine has a nice little spot in my small shop.

Once again, welcome to SMC, thanks for joining!

[Scott Loven]

I just saw this at the grizzly (http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G1018&) web site, an 8" jointer for $595 on close out.
Scott

[Ted Shrader]

Don -

Welcome to the Creek. A friendly place to hang out and exchange ideas.

The extra dealer $$$ call is up to you. Recommend talking to them (in a frank, non-emotional way, of course) and discuss the price difference with them. The delivery fee seems a little excessive to me. If they waived the delivery fee, you would be willing to pay the extra $$$ and help them with a sale.

Welcome,
Ted

[Bill Lewis]

Don,

I'm curious, who is the local Dealer? I live in Gaithersburg and the only dealer in the area that I am familiar with is Skarie in Baltimore. Is this who you have been talking to?

If so, they have an open house every fall (around October). The prices and promotions they offer at the open house is at least the same as the show pricing, sometimes even better.

At the woodworking shows they usually hold up the "Amazon/Tool Crib of the North" price as the example to show they are competative with, or more often, better than their biggest mail order/online rival.

I don't understand why they would have the same price on the standard DJ-20 vs. the X5 DJ-20. Granted they are the basically the same machine, but after going to the Delta website, it seems that the free tool, extra accessories, and $100 rebate promotions are still going on for the X5, so it would seem that there should be a better price on the standard DJ-20.

BTW Skarie will also give you free delivery.

If there is another dealer that I am not familiar with in the area, I'd like to know who it is. Skarie is not the most convenient store to go to. I keep telling them they need to open up another store in the Airpark.

[Michael Gabbay]

Don -

Welcome!

I'm in Herndon VA so I'm guessing you are shopping at many of the same places I go. Have you tried Skarie in Baltimore or Fries, Beal and Sharp in Lorton? I bought my Delta Contractor saw from Skarie a few years ago. They were fairly reasonably priced. If they are quoting you the same price for both get the X5. You'll make up the $270 with the free tool and coupons.

Basically what you are paying for locally is the support during and after the sale. Even though its unlikely you'll ever have to return it, you may need technical support where they can come to your shop. That's hard to get online.

If you are interested in a non-parrallel design I would highly recommend a trip to Wilke. It's only an hour and a half away. They do service locally if they can't work it out on the phone. Although I've never had an issue with Bridgewood tools.

Mike

[JayStPeter]

I've bought a number of things from Skarie, but always at one of the shows. I've never actually been there, but they have been pretty good to deal with on orders.
If you're talking about Woodcraft in Rockville, just talk to the owner. I don't think he can make deals on equipment, and he'll tell you that. He's a good guy, but I didn't buy my machines from him because of it. I did buy lots of other stuff there when I lived in the area.

Jay

[John Hulett]

Don,

I just went through the same thing with the 6" jointer over the weekend. I went to the TWS show in Pamona, CA. There was a local dealership (if you call 50 miles local) there with the Delta reps selling their Delta stuff. The deal was decent, but still not as good as Amazon. Amazon = $520 vs. $575 (including sales tax).

I tried the aproach to talk the the guy, frankly, but not confrontationally, about the better deal being available at Amazon. I could quickly see I hit a sore spot with the guy, and he went on and on about supporting the local dealer, and how "pretty soon, you won't have a place to go to actually see the machinery." And then there was the "supporting the local economy" line he gave me.

This was on Friday. My plan was to shop on Friday, and buy on Saturday, thus eleminating any possibility of buyers remorse; no impulse buys. Had I not done that, I probably would have gone ahead and bought from the show. Instead, I went home and thought about it. And the more I thought about it, the more angry I became about it.

LOML quit her job last summer to become a stay-at-home-mom. Our income has been cut in half. Disposable income has become a thing of the past. In fact, I sold my old guitar equipment (guitar, amp, etc.) to bank up some cash for the show. I thought about givinng up 25% of my guitar in order to support this local dealer and/or the local economy. Then I came to the conclusion that looking out for myself was mor important that looking out for the dealer. In my case, I was only talking about a $55 difference, but still... $55 is $55!!! That's $55 I can spend on lumber, or even shoes for my kid (note to self: Striderite is a racket). Washington and Sacramento get enought of my hard earned money.

Needless to say, I chose to order from Amazon. Nobody is making donations to me, so I need to spend my money as wisely as possible. I would have been willing to meet half way on the deal, but the guy just really put me off in wanting to re-approach him.

Sorry Battles. But you had your chance.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Don,

I just went through the same thing with the 6" jointer over the weekend. I went to the TWS show in Pamona, CA. There was a local dealership (if you call 50 miles local) there with the Delta reps selling their Delta stuff. The deal was decent, but still not as good as Amazon. Amazon = $520 vs. $575 (including sales tax).

I tried the aproach to talk the the guy, frankly, but not confrontationally, about the better deal being available at Amazon. I could quickly see I hit a sore spot with the guy, and he went on and on about supporting the local dealer, and how "pretty soon, you won't have a place to go to actually see the machinery." And then there was the "supporting the local economy" line he gave me.

This was on Friday. My plan was to shop on Friday, and buy on Saturday, thus eleminating any possibility of buyers remorse; no impulse buys. Had I not done that, I probably would have gone ahead and bought from the show. Instead, I went home and thought about it. And the more I thought about it, the more angry I became about it.

LOML quit her job last summer to become a stay-at-home-mom. Our income has been cut in half. Disposable income has become a thing of the past. In fact, I sold my old guitar equipment (guitar, amp, etc.) to bank up some cash for the show. I thought about givinng up 25% of my guitar in order to support this local dealer and/or the local economy. Then I came to the conclusion that looking out for myself was mor important that looking out for the dealer. In my case, I was only talking about a $55 difference, but still... $55 is $55!!! That's $55 I can spend on lumber, or even shoes for my kid (note to self: Striderite is a racket). Washington and Sacramento get enought of my hard earned money.

Needless to say, I chose to order from Amazon. Nobody is making donations to me, so I need to spend my money as wisely as possible. I would have been willing to meet half way on the deal, but the guy just really put me off in wanting to re-approach him.

Sorry Battles. But you had your chance.



In past years you usually bought from the guy with the best price. I don't see any reason not to. Why should a buyer have to worry about somebody's else's business? If they're competitive they will stay in business; if not they are out of business. It happens to a lot of businesses. When I lived in Pittsburgh I witnessed the steel industry go down the tubes. Nobody was buying steel from them because of very kean competition. Nobody seemed to care and bought by price. And that was an important industry that cost a lot of jobs.

Besides the dealers sell a lot of other things than just machinery where they really make their money. I've never needed any service on my machines that a replacement part didn't correct. What service do they give anyway? Are they coming out to your house? It would be a miracle. So this local dealer support is a lot of bunk to me. I'm sorry to come on so strong here but all this goes against common sense and I felt it had to be said. Oh yeah next time I buy a car I"ll be sure and get it from the dealer with the highest price. Oh, yeah he deserves the extra money I work so hard for. :)

Off my soap box for now. What do you think?

[John Shuk]

I'd go to the dealer and ask him to sharpen his pencil a bit. I do like to support thr local guy. I also buy from Amazon. I don't look at price only but it is a factor. I do wonder about Amazon though. I'm not sure but I don't think they have ever posted a profit. If that is the case are they just using predatory pricing until many of the local brick and mortars are gone? What happens then? Are we over a barrel? Something to think about. I do agree that $270.00 is alot of money here though.

[scott spencer]

Hi Don - I think I'd tell the dealer exactly what your facing and see if he's willing to make some consessions to close the gap. I prefer to buy local when I can too, but doubt that I'd pay a $270 premium for the priviledge. Good luck!

[Dan Owen]

First of all, let me tell you that I am a small business owner in a very competitive market and battle such entities as ebay and amazon. In my opinion, these guys you are dealing with just don't get it. I will generally match anyones price product for product and do it with a smile on my face and throw in some extras on top of it. The profit I give up is viewed as an advertising expense. I will never forfiet the opportunity to win a customer one on one because I know it will pay big dividends in the long haul. This guy needs to match that price, forget about the $270.00 and offer free delivery. After that, he needs to get on the phone and order 5 more jointers to accomodate the customers you will be sending and then look around his store and cut some worthless overhead that will more than cover his $270.00.

The End

[Bill Lewis]

After a PM exchange with Don, it turns out he is dealing with the largest Delta Dealer in the area, Skarie in Baltimore. They are the biggest presence at the local WW shows in the MD/VA area. They traditionally use the Amazon/TCotN pricing as the benchmark at the shows.

So Don if you really want to give these guys a chance for your support, and visa versa, It'd give them one more chance to get reasonable. Otherwise take it to Amazon.

BTW, this is the same outfit that still owes me my mobil base. They are waiting on an order of around 700 delta bases for various machines. That should tell you the level of volume this company does.

Don, I was eating a doughnut when I wrote this.:cool:

[Don Morris]

I was on the phone to Fries, Beall, Sharp in Lorton, VA and they were the outfit that charged $50.00 to deliver an X5 to my doorstep, not Skarie. My mistake. Sorry. Too many notes to keep straight. I forgot to add in MD taxes! That makes amazon.com even more attractive. I intend to give Skarie one more chance to get at least "close" to the amazon.com price. But my home renovation costs now force me to hold tight to a budget and I can't afford the luxury of this ideal of "supporting the local guy". I agree with several of the above replies, if they don't come close...I will order from amazon.com. The guarantee comes from the company and the item not from the store.

And Bill, we still need to get together over doughnuts so we can complain about the high cost of good wood.

Thanks people for the thoughful responses. It's helpful to hear others ideas about this troublesome problem. I'm retired military, which means that I ended up with a lot of gold on my sleeve and not a lot of it in my pocket. I have to spend it wisely.

[Michael Gabbay]

Don - I'm in the midst of home renovations as well so I definately can relate to the budget crunch. I think I would definately give Skarie a call, maybe talk to the owner/manager. Your other option is Woodworkers Supply. They do have a shipping charge of about $120 for the DJ-20 and X5 DJ-20. But they do offer both and the regular DJ 20 is less than the X5. I've been very impressed with them. Amazon has let me down a few times with delivery. Their free delivery has taken forever even though they show it ready to ship. WWSupply take about 3 - 4 days from NC.

Be sure to post your gloat!

Mike

[Alan Tolchinsky]

After a PM exchange with Don, it turns out he is dealing with the largest Delta Dealer in the area, Skarie in Baltimore. They are the biggest presence at the local WW shows in the MD/VA area. They traditionally use the Amazon/TCotN pricing as the benchmark at the shows.

So Don if you really want to give these guys a chance for your support, and visa versa, It'd give them one more chance to get reasonable. Otherwise take it to Amazon.

BTW, this is the same outfit that still owes me my mobil base. They are waiting on an order of around 700 delta bases for various machines. That should tell you the level of volume this company does.

Don, I was eating a doughnut when I wrote this.:cool:


But why should anybody have to hound a dealer to get better prices? I've dealt with Skarie only once and that was enough. After placing a big initial order they were impossible to deal with. They wouldn't answer my calls and I just gave up on them. I called them about 4-5 times and the salesman never returned my call. Where's the service there? I'd forget them and just order from Amazon. I've ordered a lot of stuff from them with never a delivery charge or sales tax and alway good service. Of course with the major equipment makers like Delta, Jet, etc. all you have to do is call their toll free no. and you usually get good service there. Have fun with whatever you get. Alan in Md.

BTW I LOVE dougnuts. Please don't mention them as I'm addicted and it's cruel.

[thomas prevost]

Growing up, we bought everything locally. The guy behind the counter knew his products, you, and offed a fair deal. Today, the counter guy is a minimum wage person who generally knows little about the products he sells. Thus, limited technical support when making a decision of purchase or how to get it running properly. Most rely on 800- tech support to assist you.

Secondarily, most all manufacturers are now offering online parts and accessories. Thus, as my local supplier put it with the new Delta notice about parts online. "Now I do not need to have money and space tied up in inventory."

He has also followed the pratice of the Borgs, Woodcraft, and Rockler-YOU pick it up at the store. Any delivery you have to arrange yourself. Online, it is delivered to my door.

Woodcraft offers the Rikon bandsaw for $999 plus $32.99 shipping no tax delivered to my door. If I buy it at the local store, it is $999 plus $85 tax and I have to pick it up at the store. Is anyone going to travel 70 miles to help me set it up?? I can buy it online and pick it up from a competitor, 40 miles from local Woodcraft store for $899 FOB no tax.

I now shop for the best price. The way we did business in the 50's-60's has changed.

[Mike Ramsey]

Actually for me this would not be a problem..I would consult my finacial advisor (my wallet) and go from there!!

[Bill Lewis]

Thomas,
I pretty much have to agree with everything you said in your post, however Skarie in Baltimore is somewhat the exception. Skarie is probably the biggest dealer in the area. They do have people who have been working for them for many years and their people are very knowledgeable about their products. They are a factory authorized dealer and repair shop, for not only Delta, but Jet/PM too. I believe they are also now reps for General too.
They typically offer free delivery within a 50 mile radius. They will provide extra support for basement deliveries or set up for an additional fee.
That's why I find it a little odd that Don is/was unable to work out the pricing.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Woodcraft offers the Rikon bandsaw for $999 plus $32.99 shipping no tax delivered to my door. If I buy it at the local store, it is $999 plus $85 tax and I have to pick it up at the store. Is anyone going to travel 70 miles to help me set it up?? I can buy it online and pick it up from a competitor, 40 miles from local Woodcraft store for $899 FOB no tax.

I now shop for the best price. The way we did business in the 50's-60's has changed.

Thomas, if there is a Woodcraft in your state you'll pay state sales tax when you order on-line form Woodcraft too.

[thomas prevost]

My post was to be generic, not aimed at any specific company especially Skarie as I know nothing of them being from NY.

Dennis, There are two Woodcrafts in NY. One of the stores has an attitude problem and most likely will not be in business very much longer. Inventory is marginal, classes tend to be marketing gimicks, owner never on site as he is starting another business. The other I have visited only twice and appears OK. BUT, I have NEVER PAID SALES TAX on any mail order from them. Check order form. NY is not one of the states. If they did start charging sales tax on top of shipping and handling, they would never see a dollar of mine as cost would be approximately 2X that of others such as Amazon. JMHO

[John Hulett]

Amazon has let me down a few times with delivery. Their free delivery has taken forever even though they show it ready to ship. WWSupply take about 3 - 4 days from NC.

I mentioned previously in this post that I ordered my 6" X5 from Amazon. Order was placed Saturday afternoon, and I received notification that it shipped from MN on Monday. The carrier is ABF.

Now, it should be noted that I work in the Logistics industry, and at my facility, we recently started using ABF because of an acquisition by my customer (I won't name names, but I work for one of the top 3 candy manufacturers in the U.S). I was going to call ABF, and I thought I might have an "in" since we're doing business with them. I spoke with our transportation planner and she told me that we will probably be dropping ABF soon because they're too slow. This was right in line with the expected delivery date of 5/10 I saw on ABF's web site. That's a full 7 business days in transit for what should only be 4 days from other carriers in the industry.

My point? You can't blame Amazon for slow shipping - especially when it's free.

[Don Morris]

Maybe I didn't seem interested enough. I didn't recognize the guys there, which I didn't. John, with whom I delt with before, or Brian who left years ago. I've bought my Delta TS, Jet 1100cfm DC unit, Jet air filtration system, several routers, 6" jet jointer, Floor size Delta Drill press, Jet Band Saw....+ nailers, porter cable dovetail machine etc. I've supported them well. The young guy who was there had to go check and see if Delta was indeed making a DJ-20 (37-350A) and the X5 version came back out from the office and said that yes they were making both versions but the cost was the same. I guess I should have pursued that at that time. This time, I will go in with the amazon.com print out and lay it out plain and simple. Not beligerant, just plain and simple. I can't afford to spend extra funds on essentially the same machine. If they can match or at least come real close to the cost of the DJ-20 (37-350A) including MD taxes, they will have a sale as soon as the electrical (220v for the DJ), dry wall, tile, etc. people are done here which appears to be in one or two months. I don't think I can wait until their October open house. LOML says I need to get going on projects for this house renovation soon. I'll post Skarie's response.

Just sitting here thinking. Wilkie advertises themselves as selling Delta. And I wouldn't have to pay state sales tax if I ordered on-line. Has anyone ever tried to buy a DJ-20 from Wilke? Hmmm, will have to email them tonight. I'm pretty close, their freight shouldn't be too much. If they matched or came close to amazon.com. From what I've heard, their CS is great. Choices, choices.

[Bill Lewis]

Don,
Yes Brian (aka the bandsaw guy) was great. I still see and talk to him at the shows. Skarie brings him back for shows. I bought some BS tune-up stuff from him at the last show and he gave me his card and told me to call him if I had any trouble with the set-up. He probably was The Most knowledgeable salesperson they had.

Thomas, I fully understand your approach was meant to be generic. I totally agree with your post. Living in a large metropolitan area, where small businesses with great customer service is virtually non-exsistant can be frustrating.
I love going to other areas in the country to see places that still have opportunity for individual small business to make a go of it. Places where the market is not so homogeneous and corporate.
We are lucky that Skarie is still around. They have probably grown over the last five years mostly because of the sales they do at the ww shows, and the growth of the hobby. With that growth, it seems they have fallen down a bit, as may be the case with what happened to Alan T. One can only hope that they don't become too bogged down in their sucsess, and continue to promote good customer relations.

[John Hulett]

[QUOTE=Don Morris]I'll post Skarie's response.
QUOTE]

Don - any update???

[Don Morris]

Yes, sad to say, PM'd a couple people who live nearby who mentioned Skarie but for the rest of you...I went back and talked to the guys at Skarie. One was someone who knew I had bought a lot of equipment there. But the story was the same. The price for the DJ-20: 37-350A and the X5 was the same. They said Delta wasn't going to make the 37-350A any more. Didn't know how amazon.com was getting them. And didn't know how amazon.com could be selling them for the price they did. I told them I just couldn't justify spending several hundreds of dollars more for essentially the same machine as the X5, regardless of the warranty and mobile base, etc. It just didn't make financial sense to me particularly with the cost over-runs of my home renovation. Addidtionally, the guarantee comes from the company and not the store from which you buy it. They said they were sceptical of amazon.com's ability to support you after the sale. I told them I've read several responses from WW's who have bought large items including jointers from amazon.com and amazon.com's CS hasn't been all that bad. In the end, the they seemed to understand but couldn't or wouldn't budge on the price. I have to move on the jointer within the next several weeks as the renovation will be at a stage to allow me to get into the shop and get going on needed projects. We parted friends, but they lost a sale. Also, sent a message to Woodworker's Supply essentially saying the same thing quoting the amazon.com price and giving them the opportunity to match amazon.com's price or at least come close to it, but haven't heard from them. My feeling guys is that the Internet has changed the way I will do business in the future. My wife, a Swedish cabinet makers daughter, who appreciates fine tools, spent several hours on the Internet, tells me she saved us thousands by buying at discount outlets who didn't charge shipping or state sales tax. If an item arrived damaged, we shipped it back free of charge. We were able to buy many higher quality items (e.g. appliances) that way rather than buy lesser quality items locally and pay state sales tax. It's a different world out there today than 10 or 15 years ago.

[Michael Gabbay]

Don - Sorry to hear you did not get a more positive response with Skarie. I was impressed with the salesman that sold me my contractor saw several years ago. But it seems that they are unwilling to at least entertain working with you. You would think that giving you show price would be a start since they are likely to make a sale in the fall or at the shows.

I guess I won't need to make a trip to Baltimore when I go shopping for my General 650 later in the year. Thanks for saving me the trip!

Mike

[John Lucas]

I wont really get into the argument. Supporting the local dealer is even a part of your philospohy or not. Saying that you want to support the dealer and then offering them a chance to match an Amazn price is ludicrous. I paid real money for an entore Delta shop purchased thru my local dealer. Did they earn their keep...yes. I dont have time to spend fixing heavy machiner that doesnt work. When that time comes it is nice to be able to call a number and ask them to come out. Usually, the equipment doesnt break down because the dealer set it up right in the first place.
So buy from Amazon and others and while youa re at it, specify that it be made in China. Why give anything back to our own economy..."for which it stands...."

[Don Morris]

John, do you think Skarie will come out to my house to service a jointer if something goes wrong with it?

[Steve Roxberg]

Don,

Just to warn you, buying on the internet does not always mean you don't have to pay sales tax. Only that the vendor does have to collect it. In some states there is a line on the form for you to total the non sales tax purchases made on the internet/phone and submitt the Use tax.

Not preaching, but people should be aware of the risk/responsibility they may have.

[Bill Lewis]

John, not to drag this out any more than it has to be, but I have to stand up for Don on this one.

This local dealer that Don was working with touts the Amazon pricing at all of the shows for comparison. If anything, the local dealer is being a bit too faced, so take it easy on Don.

I've purchased my fair share of equipment from this dealer, but I don't adhere to the philosophy that you should support the local dealer given any cost whatsoever, just in the hopes that they'll possibly support you later on. I'm too cynical to believe that would ever happen. It just would not make good business sense to do this. Let alone good sense for a hobbiest.

As for the local dealer supporting the customers, well let me relate a story about this dealer. I bought an X5 unisaw from this dealer back in early February. I bought it at a show, and took them up on the free delivery. Well they oversold the saws at the show, and it took me almost 4 weeks to take delivery of the saw (7-10 days promised at the show), with the indication that the mobil base would be coming soon after. I still have yet to receive the mobil base for the saw. I can't assemble the saw without the base, and so here it is going on 4 months later and I still can't use the saw. I've made number of phone calls to the dealer, and they haven't exactly been clamoring to do "something" about it. They only blame Delta for the problem.

So will I buy from this dealer again? Actually, yes I probably would, but I'll not go through this again either.

[Ken Waag]

This local vs internet issue has become an interesting moral dilemma. On the one hand I do like to support the local dealers. I'm glad they're there when I need something that day or when I want a good look at something.

On the other, I often know exactly what I want, so I'm just looking for the best price. Between reputable online dealers and even ebay, It's typical to get 30 to 50% below the store price.

So I try to do some of each. If I need to look at the item, if I get good help from the sales person I'll buy local. If I just want something at the best price and I've done th research on my own I'll get it online.

More and more though I'm finding myself shifting further toward the best price and its mainly because the "good service" isn't there anymore. At most places, I know more about their tools than they do. And with so much info at your fingertips on the internet now. You can download the owner's manual for most tools. Between the mfgr's site and the sellers site (if it's a good one) you can get better help than in person.

Just my 2 cents worth (2 cents in person, absolutely free here online at the Creek)

[Dan Owen]

I posted earlier in this thread that I am a small retail business owner. I am not in the tool and hardware business, but rather the golf equipment business. Though the two products are different, the principles are the same---this is the people business. I stay in business because I sevice my customers with the best possible product for the best possible price and provide a continued follow up service. I am not ever going to get rich doing this, but I do it because I enjoy sharing my product knowledge with my customers and getting them into the best equipment that they can afford.
Over the years, I have noticed that small businesses that develop attitues usually have several problems. They are trying to make alot of money to quickly, lack basic people skills, and refuse to get creative when it comes to battling the internet or the box stores. These people need to realize that nothing is black and white in the retail world and it can be as political as your next state legislature when it comes to providing superior customer service. Most brick and mortar retailers hate the words on line or internet, but I personally accept an invitation to win a customer over with my product knowledge and educate them to the advantages of buying locally. I am a person who plays golf and sells golf equipment. I buy my tools from woodworkers who sell woodworking equipment. Their advice and experience with a partiular product is invaluable to me and in the course of the sale, I can usually negotiate some perks such as extended return policies and warranties. I never ask for a better price. If the price is reasonable, I will buy. If it is not, maybe I can't afford the item. If the price is way out of line to begin with, I already assume that this particular businnes owner is either trying to get rich quick or is way behind in his bills.
No, I dont like subsidizing the internet or becoming a half way house for internet sales and big box stores, but when these people try to take advantage of my customer service I seize the opportunity to win them over. I'll stop for now and quit rambling, but please try to buy locally when you can---if not in your community, at least in state. The retail industry is way out of balance with regards to brick and mortar versus internet businesses. Until our government balances the burdens of these two entities with regards to taxes, licenses, workmans comp etc. there will always be attitudes to deal with and a continuing seperation in relationships between wholesalers and retailers.

[John Hulett]

This local vs internet issue has become an interesting moral dilemma.

I once dated a girl back when I was young and exciting; she was really into me. I had her at my place one afternoon and I was rounding second base with home easily in site when I realized that if I went that far, she would be clingy. I wasn't that into her to begin with, and would have probably dumped her shortly after. I hesitantly decided to stop, dead in my tracks and put an end to things right then and there. She was hurt, but not so much as she would have been a week later.

That was a moral dilemma.

Saving $270 is just fiscal responsibility.

Let's suppose you were shopping for the same machine at two local shops - equal in every sense relative to taxes, customer service and price. The prices are the same, but at one, the owner was throwing in a nice new Lie-Lielsen #4 1/2 smooth plane as a bonus. Is it still a moral dilemma or just common sense?

[Donnie Raines]

I had to chuckle a little bit with your comments(not making light of it by the way).

I am a PGA member and got out of the buisness due to the lack of profit involved. I love the game and working with people, but I refused to do it simply because I enjoyed it. We work because we are trying to make money. We can discuss customer service idea's all we want(and I agree with you that customers are the key ingredient to success) but one needs to draw a line some where. I was able to pay the bills and buy a home with money I made in the golf buisness, but the future I vision for my family was not going to happen in the time frame I desired.

I supported my local tool company until the service became very poor. I did not get the rock bottom price nor did I expect to get it. But I did receive a fair price. Once the service aspect of it was gone I went else where. The buisness I am in now(insurance) is price driven. BUT, I can't tell you how many times I have written deals not becuase I had the best price, but, becuase I was interested in the client. The service goes along way as you said...no disagreement there.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I still have yet to receive the mobil base for the saw. I can't assemble the saw without the base, and so here it is going on 4 months later and I still can't use the saw. I've made number of phone calls to the dealer, and they haven't exactly been clamoring to do "something" about it. They only blame Delta for the problem.

"So will I buy from this dealer again? Actually, yes I probably would, but I'll not go through this again either"

Bill, I don't see why you want to reward that dealer with more business. They treated you wrong and you're still going back for more! Man, you must be a nice guy or just a glutten for punishment. :) Alan

[Ken Waag]

Let's suppose you were shopping for the same machine at two local shops - equal in every sense relative to taxes, customer service and price. The prices are the same, but at one, the owner was throwing in a nice new Lie-Lielsen #4 1/2 smooth plane as a bonus. Is it still a moral dilemma or just common sense?

John,
I would call that common sense. You've taken any moral issue out by making everything else the same.

Take this scenario:

You've always wanted a Lie-Nielson #4 1/2 plane. It's a beautiful tool and you could put it to good use. After some hard work you're able to set aside some money and just maybe you'll get that plane. You go down to the local woodworking store to look at it. The owner shows you all the adjustments. He shows you how to set it up just right. He goes and gets a piece of cherry so you can try it out to see if it works as good as it looks. It does! This is a tool you could use. How much? Price $250; with tax it going to seperate you from $275. That's a little more than you thought and a bit more than you saved. You'd have to put $50 on a credit card. Better go home a think a little.

At home you're lusting over the plane and decide to look at it online. The first place you look has it for $225. And it dawns on you no tax. Now its $50 less than at the store and equals your cash on hand. Then you see a flashing button "On Sale, can't show price. Add to cart to see actual cost". Its on sale for $205, and this site has a free shipping and $25 off orders over $200. So your net cost here is $180. A $95 difference.

You work hard for your money. So does the store owner who spent 30 min. with you. You told him earnestly you'd be back if you decide to get the plane. So what do you do. Get it cheap? Bargain with an owner who is already on a thin margin? Pay the full price at the store because seeing the tool, having it explained and getting to use it is worth $95?

Now is that a moral dilemma or common sense?

Not as titillating as rounding the bases, but still its the kind of decision a person faces when everything is not equaled. Curious to hear opinions.

[Bill Lewis]

Well Alan it must seem that way (glutton for punishment). But typically they do have the best pricing, and they are a local dealer, and they have ordered and shipped me parts before. I do partly blame them for not having the base, in that they oversold their inventory at the show. Had I known this would have happened, I would have come back with my truck to pick up the saw. However, I had no reason not to believe what I was told. I doubt they intentionally lied to me either.

Granted it'd be nice for them to do "something" for my inconvienence, but what exactly? The mobil base was a freebee item for the show only, an added incentive above what Delta was offering through their regular promotions.

So what do I ask for? What would be fair compensation that I could potentially press them for and keep a striaght face.

[Per Swenson]

Hello all, hello Ken,

This is a tough question for me as not everything applys.
For instance, within 20 miles there is no longer a woodworking store
in northern NJ. Once upon a time there were two woodworkers wharehouses,
no more. Every week I would stop in and spend a coupla dollars, for the
privledge of making the salesman laugh at my off the cuff jokes.
Yes, I have been known to buy a audience. For this reason if I coveted
a particular item the sale would be made right then and there.
At my local Home creepo, I spend massive amounts of money and every
person in that store knows me. (just that store) I know, I know,
but they will actually excuse themselves from a customer to help me.
Why? It ain't the good humour, its the roll of coffee money I dispense at will.
Do I prefer shopping on the internet? It is not about the bargins.
For me it all customer service, no service no sale.
Of course I love a deal, it makes us feel better for a while,
Just a little while.
But you do not want to be that salesperson who says to me,
as I look at the back of his head " I...... don't..... work..... in ....this .....Dept. My inevitable reaction and subsequent diatribe are not suitable here. But they are never forgotten.
Important thing, I am a business with all of the privledges provided.
This is just how I feel.
Per

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I do not try and keep the locals in business on the hope of service in the future because these days it's like shooting dice. I look for the best price cause I know exactly what I want. I'll buy off the net anytime, I have yet to get burned (knocking on wood as I speak). :D

[thomas prevost]

How many of us remember walking into the hardware store and buying three screws, not a package? or bringing in a whichmacallit and have the owner dissapear behind the counter to re emerge with all the right parts to rebuild it? Or ask about a drill and have the counter man name five or six other customers who had bought brand X and were satisfied with it and so and so had bought brand y and had nothing but trouble with it? Or spent and hour showing you each detail of the table saw you were thinking of buying?

Except for the very rare store, It is-- Hardware is pre packed in lots of 5,7 or 17 parts. To fix the whichmacallit, plumbing is in isle 3. The counter man probably does not know the name of a single customer he has waited on in the last 2 weeks. The saw, he reads the sales ticket to you, says look feel free to look at it and if you decided to buy it, he will order it. Parts here's an 800 number or you can use the internet.

Times have change as well as customer service. Fast turn over of low cost merchandise and high school kids behind the counter. The owner then cannot get any break on wholesale machinery because he orders one at a time. This is passed on to the customer who soon abandons loyality.

We need more old fashion hardware stores where the counterman spent 20 yrs in the trades and knows every product in the store.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'd love to see that Thomas, but the reality is it might never happen again...at least NOT in any city. You can still find that in the country though!

[John Hulett]

You work hard for your money. So does the store owner who spent 30 min. with you. You told him earnestly you'd be back if you decide to get the plane. So what do you do. Get it cheap? Bargain with an owner who is already on a thin margin? Pay the full price at the store because seeing the tool, having it explained and getting to use it is worth $95?

Now is that a moral dilemma or common sense?

Not as titillating as rounding the bases, but still its the kind of decision a person faces when everything is not equaled. Curious to hear opinions.

Okay, Ken... now you've gone and taken my simple scenario and mucked it all up with what I would consider to be a scenario depicting "outstanding customer service." Unfortunately, I haven't really seen that kind of customer service at any of me "local" dealers.

From my home, I have a Rockler that's about a 35 minute drive, a Woodcraft that's 45-50 minutes away and Battles (the dealer I saw at the TWS Show over 4/29 - 5/1) that is about a 60 minute drive. With Rockler, it seems like when I go in there, the folks are too busy to even notice I'm there. They've helped me find stuff or tell me they don't carry a particular item, but beyond that, zilch. I only went to the Woodcraft store once, just to see what it was all about (in the first month or two of my WW'ing endeavor). Finally, I had taken a trip to Battles maybe a week before the WW show. At battles, they didn't have (out on the floor) what I was there to look at; they told me they had a shipment in a trailer out back intended for the show.

In any event, I've never been under the impression that the folks at ANY of the local shops, that they were willing or even prepared to bust out a hunk of cherry (or poplar, or any other material) for me to test out their jointers. Perhaps if that were the case, I might have been copelled to not only buy from them, but with the right amount of hands-on TLC, been willing to hold out for an 8" jointer, instead of the 6" I ended up getting from Amazon.

In short, in my (limited) WW'ing shopping experiences, the customer service you described can only be found in this posting, not in the real world. It seems that finding that kind of customer service is in the same realm of winning the lottery - in my dreams.

BTW: sorry if I provided a little TMI in my last post;) . Hopefully it was at least good for a chuckle.:o

[Ken Waag]

John,

I have to agree with you that a high level of service is becoming less and less common. Generally, if you get really good service, you're probably dealing with the owner as they seem to be the only ones who care and of course they have something at stake.

I guess our two examples represent the opposite ends of a spectrum. And that gray area in the middle is where the decisions are less obvious. I have a WC and a Rockler 10 and 20 min. away and I'm glad to have them there so I give them some business. And no their service is not great, it's fair to good. It has honestly been a long time since I've gotten the level in my example (in Woodworking) so maybe it's not real world. Although I'll bet there are a few shining examples out there somewhere.

Just as an aside, I remember when a Home Depot first opened nearby. I was so glad to have that resource handy. And they had pros in each dept. I'd go in for some electrical stuff and the guy would review the whole procedure with me, give me tips, and make sure I got the right stuff. Now, I see the employees literally avoid me (and others). They'll see a confused customer and make a u-turn. And it's really not their fault. They no little about the dept and aren't trained, so they probably get tired of the embarassement. And as competetive as it has gotten I suppose HD can't pay even one pro in a given dept.

So it's not worth the time to place blame. It is the way it is and the market is at the wheel. I see good and bad on both sides. I can empathize with the owner's who've posted here as well as those who need/want to stretch their buck. I do find myself hoping there will remain a place for good service to matter. Just like good craftsmanship, I'd hate to see it die.

FWIW, Ken

[Kevin Post]

Times have change as well as customer service. We need more old fashion hardware stores where the counterman spent 20 yrs in the trades and knows every product in the store.

If wishes were fishes... ;)

Those days are pretty much gone. Most of the stuff we buy these days is a commodity. Service is not...

I used to manage the sales dept. at a computer store. You don't see many 'Computer' stores around anymore either. Mail-order and big box stores pretty much did them in.

Our store had a service dept. and sent people to training to keep them in the know. We did on-site service and we spent hours with people telling them about the computers we were selling. We had many loyal customers.

However, with mail-order and discounters on the scene, margins became so tight that we couldn't maintain the high level of service. After enough instances of our people spending time consulting with prospective customers only to lose the sale to a discounter, they (understandably) began to get an attitude. Ultimately, we couldn't pay the good, experienced people enough to keep them. They all became consultants charging $$$$$ an hour for their services.

They used to pump your gas, check the oil and wash your windshield at the gas station.
The local dairy used to deliver milk and ice cream right to your house. (Boy that was nice...)
You could buy a whole bag of candy at the candy store on the corner for a nickel.
You used to be able to fix your car without hooking it up to a computer.


We can all pine for the good old days but they're gone. Times change...

Look on the bright side...

The world is a smaller place. With overnight delivery and with resources like 'The Creek', Usenet, and other specialized forums it's easier to overcome the lack of local experts. You guys are the "counterman with 20 years of experience". I don't think anyone could ask for a better resource at any store, anywhere. With a computer in your house it couldn't be more convenient.

We have digital cameras so we can post pictures and ask "What is this thing and where can I get a new one?". Then... "How do I put it in?" Undoubtedly, some 'Creeker' will take out their digital camera, take a bunch of pictures and show you how to do it. I think that's amazing.

It sure would be nice if we could have all of the perks without paying a premium but that's not how things work. If it makes economic sense, the local tool guys will stay around and we'll continue patronize their businesses. Unfortunately, it seems that they're going they way of the computer store and the milkman.

-Kevin

[Dan Owen]

"We can all pine for the good old days but they're gone. Times change..."

A good friend of mine wholeheartedly believes that by the time the younger generation attains our status ( I'm 49 ), brick and mortar stores, shopping malls and customer service with real people will be the new in thing.

[Ellen Benkin]

I had a similar problem with a local dealer from whom I've bought lots of equipment including my table saw. I had an ad from another "local" (within a 30 minute drive) dealer for a small belt/disc sander and the price difference was over $50. My guy went to his invoices and said he could not come close to the other price, so I drove off and got it at the lower price. Granted, both were local places and not mail order, but I thought it strange that one guy could sell the product at such a different price. I guess it depends on who gets the best deal from the manufacturer. Does this start to sound like car dealers?

[Mike Ramsey]

Customer service is or will be a thing of the past just like other post have mentioned. We have become our own customer service! Just look here at SMC,
We are helping ourselves! So as i see some of these post i draw this conclusion,
Some people have entirely too much money! or no commen sense.:rolleyes:

[Kevin Arceneaux]

Customer service is or will be a thing of the past just like other post have mentioned. We have become our own customer service! Just look here at SMC,
We are helping ourselves! So as i see some of these post i draw this conclusion,
Some people have entirely too much money! or no commen sense.:rolleyes:

I can only say, why should we be the customer service? Yes, I get a ton of tips and tricks from here, but when it comes to problems with equipment as delieved, the place where it was bought or the maker should be the customer service. Esp. at the prices we pay for our tools. Even though price should not matter, the company should stand behind their products.

[Donnie Raines]

I am surprised by the response with respect to customer service. You would think that every single aspect of one's customer service experience was negative or tentative at best. I understand that this thread is driven toward tool purchase's. But, this seems a little over board. I think customer service is based in part on ones perception of it. Sure, i have had some bad experiences. But in general, the level of service I receive almost every where is pleasant and professional. So while I have had some bad experiences, and sometimes it forces me to look elsewhere, I think customer service is still strong in most cases.