Kezuroukai, Planing Competition Finals 2012

[Paul Joynes]

http://youtu.be/v3Ad6tBdLbM

[Kees Heiden]

Must be fun. 9 microns is pretty thin. For metrical challenged woodworkers, that's about 0.3 of 1 tau of an inch. I've read several times that the record is 3 microns! That makes me wonder, how thick is an Alaskan yellow ceder wood cell? I've been googling but couldn't really find an answer.

[ian maybury]

:cool: Less than half a thousandth of an inch.

It's brings to mind and is certainly a pretty conclusive riposte to the service guy from the machinery manufacturer who (under pressure) set out to persuade you that you are off your rocker (and by implication being unfair to them) for getting stroppy when you find e.g. your new planer thicknesser can't be set up to within a couple of thou - because the tables are 0.012in out of flat or something. (which somehow according to their manual manages to be 'within the manufacturer's specification')

That as the stock story they trot out often goes: 'wood is a natural material that moves all over the place anyway. It's not realistic to seek to work it with those accuracies.'

For sure that's an amazingly fine cut, and it's not always needed to work to that sort of accuracy. It's pretty clear that many joints in fine woodworking routinely achieve this sort of accuracy though - if nothing else by creeping up on fits. That if your dimensioned stock is way out that it's going to cause some problems.

The wood moves subsequently, but of course the point of good design is that this movement is accommodated without gaps opening up...

ian

[Matthew N. Masail]

Ian makes a good point. but as far as the competition goes, and I might get bashed for saying this - It's one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen.

[Chris Griggs]

Cool. I've always wanted to see what goes on inside a traditional japanese toilet paper factory!

[ian maybury]

Loo paper! :) It wouldn't necessarily be my scene either Matthew (making a competitive sport out of planing - but then the attendance seem to be very much of a certain age), but it sure highlights what's possible...

ian

[Charlie Stanford]

Ian makes a good point. but as far as the competition goes, and I might get bashed for saying this - It's one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen.

Amen, brother.

[Chris Griggs]

Ian makes a good point. but as far as the competition goes, and I might get bashed for saying this - It's one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen.

It does seem kinda silly to me as well. But it is entertaining, and the people there seem to enjoy it. I'm sure its not about practical woodworking, its about competitively pushing the limits of ones abilities and tool.

Of course, getting a bunch of overly aggressive guys or gals together on a field/court/rink and having them bash into each other to try and get a ball or other object into a net or past a line, when you stop and think about it, is equally as, if not more ridiculous. But again, its entertaining to watch.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, the whole of this hobby is kind of, too. But we do it, anyway. I'm sure it means more to the japanese than it means to us because they actually plane for finish on a lot of architectural and furniture pieces.

It's not really a whole lot less stupid than the contests that go on with our woodworking shows, except there are probably fewer hacks participating at a kezurokai final.

[Jim Matthews]

Ian makes a good point. but as far as the competition goes, and I might get bashed for saying this - It's one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen.

Perhaps this is one of those inexplicable cultural differences that can't be parsed.
I also think this like arguing how many Tonttu can dance on the head of a pin.

The amount of effort that goes into something like this drives me positively nuts.

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine expending that kind of effort, either, but it does look relatively more enjoyable than hurrying to glue and clamp up a large case.

I would really mind any part of that endeavor except that you'd have to have the board excrutiatingly prepared to take a full shaving of that quality and the next day if you went to play with it again, it would probably move enough so as to need preparing a second time.

[Roger Turnbough]

I would love to know how they prepare the blades for these competitions. To take a sub .001 shaving, about 4" wide is certainly a feat. Is the blades bevel ground on a machine? Is the blade sharpened solely on waterstones? Not to mention the Dai. Does anyone have any insight into this?

[ian maybury]

Not to mention prepping the work piece to the point where it's possible to take a full length cut like that...

ian

[David Weaver]

I would love to know how they prepare the blades for these competitions. To take a sub .001 shaving, about 4" wide is certainly a feat. Is the blades bevel ground on a machine? Is the blade sharpened solely on waterstones? Not to mention the Dai. Does anyone have any insight into this?

Maybe stu will stop by and tell us. There's nothing they're doing that you can't do by hand (in terms of making and fitting a dai and sharpening an iron).

If you challenge yourself to make a really sharp iron, you'll find that you can make shavings sub 1/2 thousandth without too much trouble, but making them continuously (with no tears) like that over a wider surface is a bit more of a trick.

[Zach Dillinger]

To me, this is like watching American Idol. Some people just love it but it makes no sense to me and I want no part of it. But I'm glad they are enjoying working with tools, whatever that means to them.

[Matthew N. Masail]

The amount of effort that goes ito something like this drives me positively nuts.

That's exactly what bothers me more than anything else! I can just see a guy saving up and buying a 30000grit shapton - dreaming of making the finnest shaving ever...

the perfect wood
the time
the resources
the setup energy - oh my g-d...
t
all for practically nothing. what a waste of time... it's worst than using old wornout sandpaper. a lot worse

but I do think it's a natural humen quality to push to the edge - and thats good, but somwhere we have seem to lose the sense of relevence (sp??) that
they had in the old day. not that I was wround than.

[David Weaver]

I can't imagine why what someone else was doing would bother anyone when it doesn't cost you or me a dime? They're not selling anything, they're not asking you to do something you don't want to do. This mentality in woodworking (which is a hobby for most of us), to have concern with what other people are doing in a hobby that really is a constructive waste of time and money for nearly all of us... it's bizarre.

The more involved some folks get with something they derive pleasure from, the more it draws out a trolling judgemental mentality in some. It really makes no sense to me.

Jeez...the guys are planing a board in a competition half a world away, if you don't like it, busy your mind with something else.

[Gabe Shackle]

all for practically nothing. what a waste of time....

You could make the same argument against sports, music, art, poetry, fictional writing, cooking, etc... None of them have any particular practical value. If someone enjoys it and it doesn't cause any harm, more power to them.

[Sam Murdoch]

In a world in which mediocrity seems "perfectly" acceptable I am inspired by this effort to achieve perfection. IMHO it is not in any way I waste of time but perhaps it is the "not doing" of woodworking - a moment of utter focus that few of us ever experience. Not the way I would spend a Saturday afternoon but you've got to admit these guys are tuned in to sharp and it looks like they are having fun too. I would have liked to have been there :).

[Chris Vandiver]

That's exactly what bothers me more than anything else! I can just see a guy saving up and buying a 30000grit shapton - dreaming of making the finnest shaving ever...

the perfect wood
the time
the resources
the setup energy - oh my g-d...
t
all for practically nothing. what a waste of time... it's worst than using old wornout sandpaper. a lot worse

but I do think it's a natural humen quality to push to the edge - and thats good, but somwhere we have seem to lose the sense of relevence (sp??) that
they had in the old day. not that I was wround than.

If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to dis something you don't fully understand.

[Sam Takeuchi]

The way I see it, this kind of activity and attitude to sharpness contributes to continuous development of new waterstones. Personally I don't care for this kind of competition, but as a whole, probably without it, Japan would be sitting on the King stones still. At least I do find it interesting to read about folks who are into this type of things and their take on sharpness and tools.

Like I said in another thread recently, this is not a woodworking activity. It simply involves woodworking tools and wood, but It's about the user's skill, dedication and eyes for a tool. They know full well this kind of perfect planing has no place in a practical woodworking environment. For some people, probably that's all they do, just pursuit of perfect plane tuning and shaving. No actual woodworking. That being said, if you break down a lot of things, there are silly things all around that makes no sense: Paying gym fee to use treadmill and stair master, competitive eating, sitting in front of tv all day, riding around town on a big motorcycle while gunning the engine, chasing a tiny ball with a stick in a course larger than a small town (I know a lot of you like it, but for us non golfers, it is a silly 'sport'), woodworking to furnish their workshop endlessly so they can make more for their workshop, or this is something that really apply to a lot of us...paying hundreds of dollars for a plane when a $10 wooden plane from the old days can be made to work just as good and mastepieces from the past were made from these less than perfect tools.

What I mean is that we do silly things, but I think we strive to achieve something for our own satisfactions. It's probably silly to call them silly when we are also sitting on expensive but less than necessary tools, woodworking projects for the tools you have but don't use or need, and for some, paying more simply because one brand of tool looks more appealing and such while alternative products are just as functional, or even better engineered. So among a lot of silly stuff we do, I think it's good that they are getting out and doing something that excited and interest them.

"$300 is a lot of money!" (was it Wilbur Pan's?) is right. That's how people see our tools, but that's what we use, recommend and repeatedly buy. Even our powered brethren think we are silly for paying so much and using these 'primitive', 'ancient' or otherwise inefficient tools. And the fact is, a lot of people have very little to show for their investment, but as long as it's fun for them, it's worth it, isn't it?

[Mel Fulks]

It lacks the elegance of American watermelon seed spitting contests.

[Chris Griggs]

Perhaps this is one of those inexplicable cultural differences that can't be parsed.



Totally, you would never see westerners doing something this nutty with a hand plane....:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c0d2ASiycg

[Chris Griggs]

Although when we do we have a very good reasons..... to make money!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLhsrjebG7w

[Zach Dillinger]

It lacks the elegance of American watermelon seed spitting contests.

Or Finnish wife-carrying contests.

[ian maybury]

:) So i guess we'll be looking at international championships next???

More seriously it's a very nice demo of what a finely set up plane can actually do....

ian

[Sam Takeuchi]

Like someone else mentioned earlier, traditional buildings utilized unfinished, bare wood surface even for ouside, so I think the mentality to achieve perfect surface come from culturally necessary carpentry tradition. Even a lot of modern Japanese houses incorporates traditional Japanese rooms that has unfinished, but smoothly planed pillars that are visible. My grandparents' house were built in the 1960s, and that house has a lot of those unfinished show pillars inside and they are still shiny even now. Of course, over time surface get burnished and polished more as they are rubbed, touched or cleaned, but there is not a trace of chatter mark, tear out, twist or anything visibly imperfect. Even my parents' house that were built 33 or so years ago has one of those perfectly planed and still smooth pillars.

The competition itself do not directly result in production of those pillars, but it takes skills to achieve that sort of surface. Carpenters sought and developed skills in order to achieve as perfect as possible surface even in old times. Now in this modern age, there's a machine called super surfacer that is capable of this type of planing at a high speed. If people didn't care for perfectly planed surface, there wouldn't have been one. Same reasons super surfacer never hit big in the US where demand for a machine that is able to achieve perfect surface in high volume was not that big. So I don't think this is all for nothing.

[Zach Dillinger]

I think I would be interested in setting up the American equivalent of this contest, namely, how fat a shaving can you make? This could actually have a practical application to Western woodworking.

[David Weaver]

We could have theme food at the american version. Scallops and thick cut potato chips.

[Zach Dillinger]

We could have theme food at the american version. Scallops and thick cut potato chips.

I was thinking sponsorships from Mountain Dew, Budweiser and Taco Bell, but I suppose I could make some exceptions. Just so long as the shavings don't mistakenly get fried and served to the masses. Although, I suppose you could deep-fry just about anything and make it edible.

[Greg Wease]

I would love to know how they prepare the blades for these competitions. To take a sub .001 shaving, about 4" wide is certainly a feat. Is the blades bevel ground on a machine? Is the blade sharpened solely on waterstones? Not to mention the Dai. Does anyone have any insight into this?

A few years ago Hida Tool sponsored two Kazouro Kai events at Palomar College. They brought several woodworkers from Japan including a couple of "national treasure" temple builders who demonstrated a number of skills, not just thin shavings. The activities included construction of a Torii gate, shoji screens, complex joinery, etc. Full-width shavings using 8 inch wide planes were very impressive. The surface finish on all examples was awesome.

Those involved in the planing contest prepared their blades by hand, many using natural waterstones. They sat on the ground polishing and using loops to examine the edges until satisfied. I don't believe grits beyond 12,000 were used--and no machines. By the way, one of the participants told me that his blades were only sharpened to 4000 for daily construction tasks. Dais appeared to have been prepared in the traditional manner using scraping planes to remove material in front of and behind the mouth after flattening.

I believe one purpose of the competition is to generate interest in traditional techniques among younger woodworkers. If they get excited by sub-thou shavings and this drives interest in woodworking in general should we really consider the Kazouro Kai a folly?

[Charlie Stanford]

The way I see it, this kind of activity and attitude to sharpness contributes to continuous development of new waterstones. Personally I don't care for this kind of competition, but as a whole, probably without it, Japan would be sitting on the King stones still. At least I do find it interesting to read about folks who are into this type of things and their take on sharpness and tools.

Like I said in another thread recently, this is not a woodworking activity. It simply involves woodworking tools and wood, but It's about the user's skill, dedication and eyes for a tool. They know full well this kind of perfect planing has no place in a practical woodworking environment. For some people, probably that's all they do, just pursuit of perfect plane tuning and shaving. No actual woodworking. That being said, if you break down a lot of things, there are silly things all around that makes no sense: Paying gym fee to use treadmill and stair master, competitive eating, sitting in front of tv all day, riding around town on a big motorcycle while gunning the engine, chasing a tiny ball with a stick in a course larger than a small town (I know a lot of you like it, but for us non golfers, it is a silly 'sport'), woodworking to furnish their workshop endlessly so they can make more for their workshop, or this is something that really apply to a lot of us...paying hundreds of dollars for a plane when a $10 wooden plane from the old days can be made to work just as good and mastepieces from the past were made from these less than perfect tools.

What I mean is that we do silly things, but I think we strive to achieve something for our own satisfactions. It's probably silly to call them silly when we are also sitting on expensive but less than necessary tools, woodworking projects for the tools you have but don't use or need, and for some, paying more simply because one brand of tool looks more appealing and such while alternative products are just as functional, or even better engineered. So among a lot of silly stuff we do, I think it's good that they are getting out and doing something that excited and interest them.

"$300 is a lot of money!" (was it Wilbur Pan's?) is right. That's how people see our tools, but that's what we use, recommend and repeatedly buy. Even our powered brethren think we are silly for paying so much and using these 'primitive', 'ancient' or otherwise inefficient tools. And the fact is, a lot of people have very little to show for their investment, but as long as it's fun for them, it's worth it, isn't it?

And then there's the stock selection - it's like a karate board breaking demonstration where they use perfectly straight grained clear and homogenous pine that my 85 year old mother could break. If they could raise that sort of shaving on elm or an old piece of chestnut I might be impressed.

[David Weaver]

Winners get scallops smoked with apple chips, losers get their scallops smoked with piss elm shavings.

Anyone disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct gets stuck with taco bell and budweiser.

I think we've got it down now.

We'll have golf, video games, and computers with internet forum access for the folks who are too productive for our contest.

[David Weaver]

If they could raise that sort of shaving on elm or an old piece of chestnut I might be impressed.

That'd be super practical, because then once we knew exactly what we needed use to plane a nice piece of american chestnut, we could go out and buy a bunch for our next project.

Those guys who used clear mahogany and walnut in the past were obviously in the weeds.

[Ryan Mooney]

imho Its an interesting and great display of skill. Is it something you'd do every day? No probably not, but its like any other human endeavor, people will try to take it to the edge and see how far they can go. If it gets a handful of people interested and challenged who wouldn't have been otherwise then double plus good.

For comparison I find nascar sillier :p

[Charlie Stanford]

That'd be super practical, because then once we knew exactly what we needed use to plane a nice piece of american chestnut, we could go out and buy a bunch for our next project.

Those guys who used clear mahogany and walnut in the past were obviously in the weeds.

This is obviously not about building real furniture. If there is going to be a competition then have a competition. Put the tools and tuners to a real test, not something contrived to guarantee the obligatory 12' long shaving (haven't we seen similar photos before? I think there is a YouTube video.)

The Whitbread race goes 'round the world, not across the English Channel though doing the latter is probably eminently more practical.

[David Weaver]

I really don't know what you could do for a contest other than give people a picture of a moderately difficult piece and give them a limited number of tools and time to complete it.

There's really nothing to test with tools with practical purpose. You can relieve a piece of wood of half of a thousandth with $15 worth of plane.

I do know that the cabinetmaking championship video or whatever it is online is so boring that I couldn't watch it without moving the video slider around. I really have no clue what we're all going to do if we decide that ever competition that we're not involved in is worthless and a waste. The list of hobbies people partake in that don't include everyone in the world is all of them, so presume we have to take the viewpoint of depression era products like my grandparents that you eat, sleep and work, or you'll be subject to extreme criticism. Nothing else other than those three, and two of them can be cut back some if they get in the way of work.

[Mike Cogswell]

It lacks the elegance of American watermelon seed spitting contests.

Seeds? Spit? You're a woodworker with a penchant for primitive tools. Make a trebuchet and see how far you can toss the whole thing - like pumpkin chunking!

[Jim Koepke]

We could have theme food at the american version. Scallops and thick cut potato chips.

One of my thoughts for this kind of thing was to use a plane like a mandolin vegetable slicer for making potato chips or chips from other fruits and vegetables.

To me, this competition is as silly as any sport or other skilled accomplishment. It shows what dedication and care to perfecting one's abilities can achieve.

My thinest shaving was measured by a friend at 0.0006" off of a piece of pine taken with my Stanley/Bailey #3. Big whoop!

Thin shavings tend to tear out less and leave a fine surface behind. Another advantage is if the plane is leaving tracks, you likely won't notice them and they are easier to remove with another pass.

jtk

[David Weaver]

There is one practical question that a thin shaving answers, at least that I can think of - and that's for any beginner who is not sure whether or not they understand sharpening. If you can take a wide, clean 1/2 thousandth shaving, then you have no questions about sharpening and can move on.

[Prashun Patel]

"I can't imagine why what someone else was doing would bother anyone when it doesn't cost you or me a dime?"

+1. It's difficult to take thin shavings. They push that difficulty to the max. We do it with running, mountain climbing, lifting heavy weights, swimming from one end of the pool to the other. It is in our DNA to turn everything into a competition.

Valuable or not, it's an impressive feat in my book.

[Ryan Mooney]

If you can take a wide, clean 1/2 thousandth shaving, then you have no questions about sharpening and can move on.

:rolleyes: :D You of all people should know better than to make a statement like that :p

[Sam Takeuchi]

And then there's the stock selection - it's like a karate board breaking demonstration where they use perfectly straight grained clear and homogenous pine that my 85 year old mother could break. If they could raise that sort of shaving on elm or an old piece of chestnut I might be impressed.

If that's the idea, I don't know why stop at elm and old chestnut. If you are going to move the goal post, let them prove themselves on ipe or lignum vitae.

But that's not the point of this competition, is it? Shaving is only a data they use to determine the fit and finessse of the tool and user. It makes no sense to use splitty, gummy or otherwise not well behaved wood. Even then, not everyone achieves continuous, consistent and winning shavings, so there has to be a more than just pulling a plane and everyone gets a guaranteed 12ft long shaving, as you put it. When a competition is such that there is a set of rules and standard, everyone gets to be on the same start line and compete fairly. Doesn't that made a valid competition? Yet, look at non competitive criteria and say this is a pointless activity because such and such is not incorporated into the competition and thus no skill involved seems extremely selective. If harder and more difficult wood is required to go through true test of skills, does that apply to woodworking as a whole, too? Is anyone making anything using less than your arbitrarily picked wood specie prove no skill? Or such 'rule' only applies to one activity, but not the other one?

If anything, if they had a tournament ladder, and as they progress through each round they have to plane increasingly difficult wood, that would interest me more, but that's not Kezuro-kai, is it? Even then, it wouldn't interest me to actually tune the plane to that degree, or actually go watch the competition, though. It's just not my thing. It's their gathering and fun.

[Charlie Stanford]

File deep serations in a plane iron and make waffle fries.

[Charlie Stanford]

They wouldn't move on, they'd become an internet honing guru.

[Brian Kent]

In everything we do where quality is a concern, you need a few people who will take things to the farthest extreme. It is fun to see and their experiences raise the standard for all of us normals.

[John Lanciani]

They wouldn't move on, they'd become an internet honing guru.

Or an internet curmudgeon...

[David Weaver]

They wouldn't move on, they'd become an internet honing guru.

Well, as long as it prevents the narcissism that's present in folks who use dull tools.

[Charlie Stanford]

Well, as long as it prevents the narcissism that's present in folks who use dull tools.

We need a closeup of somebody shaving peach fuzz with an iron out of a no. 7. You game?

[paul cottingham]

Ian makes a good point. but as far as the competition goes, and I might get bashed for saying this - It's one of the dumbest things I have
ever seen.
I don't see it as any different than people's obsession with how tight their joinery is, or (my personal pet peeve) how tidy and organized their shops are.
To each his own.
Be interesting to see how fine a shaving could be made with a no.4.

[Frank Drew]

And then there's the stock selection - it's like a karate board breaking demonstration where they use perfectly straight grained clear and homogenous pine that my 85 year old mother could break. If they could raise that sort of shaving on elm or an old piece of chestnut I might be impressed.

Some people here need to get out more; a well-tuned Japanese plane (or any good plane, really) can nicely handle even the gnarliest woods, crotch walnut as a good example.

[David Weaver]

Nobody who has actually used a japanese plane would describe it as something that doesn't work with figured or difficult woods.

Experience would get in the way of fantasy scenarios for some, though.

[Charlie Stanford]

Some people here need to get out more; a well-tuned Japanese plane (or any good plane, really) can nicely handle even the gnarliest woods, crotch walnut as a good example.

Super, let's see them use those woods in the "competition." Or better still, you show us what one will do since you seem to be asserting that you 'get out' more than some of us do.

I guarantee you that I have a rough time with figured stock. Would be lying if I didn't admit it. I'd be thrilled to see you blokes blowing it away and laughing it off, hand planing tear out free and virtually finish ready as a daily matter of course. So, please, reach into that bottomless pile of "highly figured stock" many of you seem to have constantly to hand and have had so much experience with and show us how it's done, Japanese-style. Can't wait!

Crotch walnut, I must say, how exciting. I'm assuming in thickness too. Please clue us in as to your supplier -- I'm guessing Irion...? Obviously, folks don't buy crotch walnut to build painted Shaker wall cupboards, or God forbid just to practice hand plane tuning. Would love to see the tours-de-force (hope there is more than one!) this fine material went into, or for which builds are being contemplated or are in progress. Such fabulous stock would be wasted by my assuredly less than meager talent.

The greatest furniture commission ever: http://www.irionlumber.com/uploads/W198BI.pdf

Cheers!

[Kees Heiden]

Not me. I'm not into all that highly figured stuff at all. And I admire the makers of these reproductions a lot, but it's just not my thing. For me all the hoela around the chipbreaker is mostly about these small grain reversals, knots, crossgrained stuff etc. Usually just small bits tearing out, but it can be frustrating when you only have simple planes. Sinde I learned how to use the chipbreaker life is a lot easier.

But right now I am working on a wallnut table. The wood is a dream until now. Very easy to plane, allthough quite hard. I am curious how difficult planing the tabletop will be.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I guess if you look at it as a sport it's not that bad.... maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle.

[Charlie Stanford]

Not me. I'm not into all that highly figured stuff at all. And I admire the makers of these reproductions a lot, but it's just not my thing. For me all the hoela around the chipbreaker is mostly about these small grain reversals, knots, crossgrained stuff etc. Usually just small bits tearing out, but it can be frustrating when you only have simple planes. Sinde I learned how to use the chipbreaker life is a lot easier.

But right now I am working on a wallnut table. The wood is a dream until now. Very easy to plane, allthough quite hard. I am curious how difficult planing the tabletop will be.

Some folks don't like the style which of course is fine but that's world class cabinetmaking on display. Just managing a commission that large is a feat in itself I'm sure.

[Kees Heiden]

Yes I agree. I admire it a lot. Years ago when Tommy mcDonald build his Bombay chest with regular video updates on the internet, I was glued to the screen.

But in the end, I find these things pretty uggly :p

[Charlie Stanford]

I don't necessarily disagree though ugly might be a bit strong. I'm a fan of Alan Peters' work.

[Frank Drew]

Charlie,

Many years ago I was working on a Japanese-style house in the Northeast; this was a timber-framed structure, all interior woods hand-planed with no further finish, all sash and doors and shoji handmade, etc.; except for the scale of the place and modern appliances, this was a house that incorporated most of the traditional Japanese home design features -- I guess high-end Japanese home, though. I was the only Westerner on the project at that time (and also, I should note, the least skilled.)

A tokonoma is a small, interior alcove to display a piece of pottery or caligraphy, whatever. The materials to construct the tokonoma are carefully selected and often combine dimensioned and smooth but in-the-round elements. The floor is often a select piece of wood, and I was having nothing but trouble planing this certain piece of highly figured (crotch) walnut. One of the younger Japanese carpenters came over when he noticed that I was in the weeds; I implied that the wood was too figured to plane well (blame the material!), but he took my plane, turned it upside down to inspect the sole, grunted and politely muttered something probably about the quality of my plane tuning, then proceeded to do it to his standards, reset the blade, took a test plane on the walnut, reset the blade a skosh more, then handed it back to me and I was able to plane the wood relatively easily and, importantly, with no more tearout.

The point being, my skill might have been lacking, but the tool itself could do whatever you wanted if you could set it up correctly.

[Jim Koepke]

If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to dis something you don't fully understand.

Especially when some strive to take tear out free shavings and in so doing create a definitive video on the workings of a chip breaker.

Surely there are some who insist the chip breaker is miss named and is just there so the adjuster will work or to stiffen the cutting iron. There are others among us who found understanding of something we have played with for years.

It is these "senseless" competitions that are always at the forefront of innovation no matter what the field of endeavor.

Silly car races led us to better engine and automotive designs.

Foot races led us to better shoes.

Logging festivals led us to better saws, axes and other tool designs.

When having a competition to see whose plane can make the thinest shaving, it only makes sense to use a wood that is capable of holding together when making thin shavings.

Maybe it is time to turn off the computer and go out and enjoy the day and take some thin shavings just for fun.

jtk

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I will now "If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to 'dis' something you don't fully understand."

I am not "dising" the skill, I have the outmost respect and appreciation for the Japanese ways, patience and dedication - and you can ask my wife.
I was judging the intense use of resources and time to make a competition of it. yes - competition does push people to new heights, but I really value my time, and
it seems to me a huge waste to be measuring shavings in microns and giving out medals or what not. it's not the skill that I was referring too - but what they are making of it.
teaching it to a room full of woodworkers would be much more of a good use IMO.
I'm sure I don't understand the whole thing, but it struck me as insane in the moment. if I think about it there are plenty of everyday things that are just stupid. but I don't expect you to understand the background from which I am looking at things.

[Jeff Heath]

Amen, brother.

No amens, but I'll triple that thought. I don't get the point, but if they're having fun, then so be it.

Jeff

[Joel Moskowitz]

I'm curious,
something I don't understand.

Wood is basically cells of wood all arranged. practically this means that if you slice off a shaving you get a cross section of cell walls and a lot of air.
Now supposing you take a really fine shaving and then put a thickness gauge on it to measure the shaving, won't the vertical walls of the cell, which are even in a fine shaving, thinner than they are tall, fall over? or at least buckle a lot?
So are those contest folks measuring the thickness of the shaving, or at some point of thinness what you actually are measuring is the thickness of a compressed cell wall or a cell wall on its side?
Certainly - if they are it would explain why the shavings while transparent aren't so much more transparent than a very thin, shaving in the sub thou of an inch world.

[Charlie Stanford]

No amens, but I'll triple that thought. I don't get the point, but if they're having fun, then so be it.

Jeff

Well, they are smiling so it can't all be bad.

[Charlie Stanford]

Super. Let's hear more. Japanese craftsmen building a traditional Japanese home in the Northeastern U.S. using traditional Japanese architecture and hand craftsmanship. Surely, there must be a newspaper or magazine article about this place.

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm curious,
something I don't understand.

Wood is basically cells of wood all arranged. practically this means that if you slice off a shaving you get a cross section of cell walls and a lot of air.
Now supposing you take a really fine shaving and then put a thickness gauge on it to measure the shaving, won't the vertical walls of the cell, which are even in a fine shaving, thinner than they are tall, fall over? or at least buckle a lot?
So are those contest folks measuring the thickness of the shaving, or at some point of thinness what you actually are measuring is the thickness of a compressed cell wall or a cell wall on its side?
Certainly - if they are it would explain why the shavings while transparent aren't so much more transparent than a very thin, shaving in the sub thou of an inch world.
Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

[David Weaver]

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I will now "If only you had the skill required to do that fine of planing, you might be singing a different tune. Don't be so quick to 'dis' something you don't fully understand."

I am not "dising" the skill, I have the outmost respect and appreciation for the Japanese ways, patience and dedication - and you can ask my wife.
I was judging the intense use of resources and time to make a competition of it. yes - competition does push people to new heights, but I really value my time, and
it seems to me a huge waste to be measuring shavings in microns and giving out medals or what not. it's not the skill that I was referring too - but what they are making of it.
teaching it to a room full of woodworkers would be much more of a good use IMO.
I'm sure I don't understand the whole thing, but it struck me as insane in the moment. if I think about it there are plenty of everyday things that are just stupid. but I don't expect you to understand the background from which I am looking at things.

I'm sure there is no leisure activity you take part in that wastes even a second. Extra minute at a cafe more than it takes to eat the food and pay the bill, whatever. You still don't get it.

[Kees Heiden]

Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

This comes back to my question early in this thread. How thick is a woodcell? A bit of searching makes me blieve 20 micro is a rather typical cell diameter, so they are planing les then a woocell. So you have to look at the woodcell walls, which meassure more in the 1 micro range. Sure, I am just googling a round a bit, but it does make me wonder, what the heck are these super thin shavings? Layers of wood cell walls I guess with not much air anymore.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'm sure there is no leisure activity you take part in that wastes even a second. Extra minute at a cafe more than it takes to eat the food and pay the bill, whatever. You still don't get it.

That's low. I waste a ton of my time - like anyone. and enjoying a coffee is not a waste in my book, so please don't be childish. this competition
struck me as an extreme. maybe I don't see in it the things that give it the point, I already said that, which would make my initial observation mute.
In any case I'm happy to discus it but not in the in clinical disrespectful way these responses have been going.

[Kees Heiden]

Matthew,

For me, I just see the fun in these things. For example, my other passion is rockclimbing. I am not terribly good at it, but boy, it's so much fun. And to be honest, if there ever was a list of senseless activities, then rockclimbing would score pretty high. I am climbing on a recreational level, but lots of people are really pushing the limits of rockclimbing. I can look at it with awe. There are some guys and galls training at my local climbing wall and allthough they take it very seriously, they also have a lot of fun. I guess it is also a group thing. It's always nice to belong to a group and trying to excell within that group in one way or anaother. That's just normal social behaviour.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Kees, I agree with everything you've said 100%. but for some reason the planing competition strikes me as something different. to me to excel in woodworking
doesn't mean taking 0.X micron shavings. maybe I just don't understand enough to get it, but in all truth I can't imagine any of that super finesse matters. they obviously
enjoy it, at least thats 1 reason to do it. but I'm allowed to think it's pointless. I'd like to hear why this make total sense. do you spend 5 hours setting up your planes to do that everytime you want a fine "tearout" free shaving? or do you just sharpen and set it fine?

[Kees Heiden]

In normal work I guess Japanese carpenters make normal smoothing shavings in the 1 to 2 tau range. Just like westerners. But this is a competition. It's sport. So you try anything to beat the other guy, within the rules of course. If it takes 5 hours to set the plane, so be it. It's totaly serious in itself but pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. Of course.

[Wilbur Pan]

This comes back to my question early in this thread. How thick is a woodcell? A bit of searching makes me blieve 20 micro is a rather typical cell diameter, so they are planing les then a woocell. So you have to look at the woodcell walls, which meassure more in the 1 micro range. Sure, I am just googling a round a bit, but it does make me wonder, what the heck are these super thin shavings? Layers of wood cell walls I guess with not much air anymore.

Pretty much. Thin sheets of various polysaccharides.

The numbers that you have for the thickness of a plant cell and the cell wall are pretty good. The exact number depends on the species, especially for the diameter of the cell. Plant cells are almost never spherical, so it also depends on which way you are measuring the cell.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Although those 9 micron shavings undoubtedly have air spaces in them, the air spaces are all distributed evenly across the width of the shaving, not the thickness of the shaving. These shavings are so thin that compression of the shaving across its thickness means trying to compress individual bundles of cellulose/lignin/pectin, which is going to be really hard to do.

I think i get it. Sorry for the confusion. My problem was that I was thinking that a micron is smaller than it is.
9µ = 0.00035433in which is thin and impressive at that length but not something I can't envision.

[david charlesworth]

Joel,

I too spent some considerable time working out what 9 microns is in English money. 0.4 of a thousandth of an inch is pretty impressive, but I hope we are all familiar with a 1 thou" shaving?

Using English Sycamore and a tuned up Stanley 5 1/2, I reckon I can get 0.6 of a thou.

best wishes,
David

[Joel Moskowitz]

David,
That's my point. A sub thousand shaving from a Well tuned Stanley plane and a very sharp iron isn't that hard to do. If you hollowed the sole of your plane and pulled a few other tricks planing a sub thou shaving for eight or so feet would also be pretty doable. Of course that would make the plane useless for actual woodworking.
I think there is a fair amount of skill in getting a wooden plane to make a sub thou shaving full width six of eight feet long, especially so in a contest environment. but it's not magic or anything you or anyone else who is skilled could not do if you put your mind to it.

[Kees Heiden]

Ok Joel, let's raise the stakes. How about a 3 micrometer shaving? That's about a tenth of a tau.

253973


You can read all about it in this blog: http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.nl/2013/01/thin-on-ground.html
He also explains in a series of blogs how Japanese planes are being setup, and what makes them such great tools. It's a pitty I am allready too deep into western stuff and don't really have time or money to start of on this tangent.
http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.nl/2012/05/chip-off-old-block.html

[Matthew N. Masail]

Lol... ok I'm starting to find it interesting - so I'm laughing at myself. I wonder if the competition feeds this and keeps it alive

[Stanley Covington]

Interesting to see the comments.

With the standard width planes, the guys are using standard manmade waterstones to sharpen. Many, but certainly not all, use natural finishing stones.

Sharpening isn't the hardest part, IMO, rather setting up the dai and adjusting the blade is a bitch since it has to be absolutely perfect. How do you judge half a thousandth inch by eyeball? Some skill there.

Those who find this sort of competition silly should reflect on their own involvement in sports, whether as participant or just viewer. At least planing has relevance to real world skills, unlike golf or basketball or bowling. If its fun, and everyone can have a beer afterwards, why not?

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting to see the comments.

Sharpening isn't the hardest part, IMO, rather setting up the dai and adjusting the blade is a bitch since it has to be absolutely perfect. How do you judge half a thousandth inch by eyeball? Some skill there.

One must remember those things don't have depth adjusters or lateral levers.


If its fun, and everyone can have a beer afterwards, why not?

Now that is a good way to think about most of life.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

That is fantastic competition. Thanks for sharing it. I have to say that some of the negative comments posted in this thread though, have been completely unexpected. Lots of envy IMO

[Jake Helmboldt]

You place such a huge value on your time, yet you find time to post multiple times about this issue? Seriously?

I think Sam Murdoch's point is on the mark; we live in a society that values cheap at the expsense of quality, and very few really place value on true craftsmanship anymore. As Sam T. pointed out, much of this reflects the tradition of building one's skills to exemplary levels and the emphasis that remains on true craftsman's skills. We should be so lucky to have a society that values that, instead we have a society that sees pursuit of perfection and honing one's skills as a waste of time, even among woodworkers. Ironic really.

[Joe Leigh]

I don't see that as ironic actually, nor do I see any skilled craftsmanship. The only connection between that and actual woodworking is that real woodworkers use that same tool to actually produce something of value.
Not knocking it really and I believe in competition of all types, but let's not confuse honing a lifelong craft with some contrived parlor trick.

[Cory Waldrop]

A competition involving an activity that not the vast majority of the people can do, or have the patience and drive to put in the time to practice to the point where they could offer up stiff competition sounds very familiar. Its no different than professional sports, eating competitions, or just about anything else in the guiness book of records. Its enjoyable to some and may even broaden the understanding of some folks of what humans are capable of. To others, its a waste of time and doesn't offer much meaning. I guess the same could be said about the time we all spent logging into this website, watching the video, and commenting. Its all in good fun, and if you aren't having fun, move on to something that will make your day better. I personally thought it was very neat. And I think beer was mentioned earlier, Id love to share one with you folks :).

[Dale Osowski]

Great video! Thanks for posting :)