Buying Shaper Advice

[Albert Chio]

Hi Gusy,

I need your help. I will be building my own house and taking this opportunity to buy a good shaper to build my cabinets. Currently all I have is 3hp router mounted on a table but wife has approved for me to go and buy a shaper. My budget is $3800 max. I was first thinking of getting either a 1-phase Grizzly or the Powermatic 2700 5hp. Then I became interested in a used industrial shaper like a SCMI or Delta RS-15. I was about to pull the trigger on a Delta Invicta RS-15 for $2500 but after researching this model I was not able to find anybody that supports this tool anymore. I called Delta and they referred me to Syracuse Industrial and both told me that they no longer make or support parts for this shaper. The Syracuse Industrial representative went on to explain that for most of all these old tools including SCMI's, their parts are no longer supported by their manufactures and trying to find it will be impossible. He went on to explain that companies like SCMI only support parts for about 7 years before they stop in part to force buyers to move to the newer tool version. So having said this I am now doubting if I should still pursue an old industrial shaper like an early 1990's or mid 1980 SCMI. So what is your advice regarding this? Should I just keep to my original plan and get a 1-phase 5hp shaper like the Grizzly or Powermatic 2700? Between these two should I just save my money and get the Grizzly since both are now made in Taiwan? What about the Grizzly G0608X?

Thanks Guys for you any advice you can provide.

- albert

[Stephen Cherry]

Albert, there are lots of questions there. For me, the first thing I would ask is if you just want to build a kitchens worth of doors, or do you have other projects in mind? The cutters you need will tell you how much machine is required. Door parts do not require a very heavy machine. Bigger cutters require a bigger shaper.

Are you willing to do three phase conversion? If not, your industrial choices will be very limited.

As for parts, these machine are very simple, and if it works right when you buy it, it will likely work right for a long time. SCMI spindles are available, bearings are generic. Depending on your location, good deals will pop up, but not every day. I'm in the mid-atlantic area, and see a few good deals each year. This past fall, I could have bought a delta rs15 for 700 dollars with a feeder, or delta hd shapers with solid spindles for 400 each. Could I get these now, no, they are gone. But other deals will pop up. My target machine, if you want to keep it for a hobby, would be a 1990's scmi t-110. It can turn just about any cutter, it is about 800 lbs, rather than 2000; and it is maybe the chevy puckup of the shaper world. I bought mine at the bottom of the financial crisis, but I would think 2000 dollars should still get you a nice one, hopefully with a feeder.

Also, check out the weaver site for the setups for door parts.

[Kevin Bourque]

Making raised panels and most other homeowner tasks doesn't require a massive machine. If I were you
I would get an econo shaper and spend the money on shaper cutters.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Albert, slow down a bit . . . .don't let the money burn a hole in your pocket.

I did my prior raised panel doors on a 3hp router/table and they came out fine. I kept reading about how versatile shapers are and the quality of the cut, etc, so I set my sights on getting one. I also went to a shaper school in Colorado (Alpine Technical Workshop) to learn how to use it safely. Money wel spent, but wish i went before i ordered the shaper . . . . . . .

I recently bought a new 2700 (3hp) and a power feeder. BUT that was just the start . . . . i now have as much money tied up in the tooling as i do in the shaper and feeder. Very, very nice tooling, but i was a bit naive when i started venturing down this path. I have three kitchens lined up (mine and 2 best friends, so no $$) so it will get used and be appreciated, but the router could have done it all too.

So, depending upon the BIG picture of what all you are going to use it for, it may or may not make sense. If i were to do it over, i would lean towards an euro saw/shaper. If you do get one, get an Aigner catalogue as you will want to spend some money there; great safety items/aides.

[David Kumm]

As others have said, let the work dictate the machine. A mission or shaker style profile needs less machine than a traditional raised panel design. I like wider fields and profiles so I like larger diameter cutters. They like larger shapers. You want to anticipate the type of cutters and diameter you intend to use. Large cutters on a small quill can be risky and smaller ones might require more sanding and limit your choices so decide on them first. Used large shapers in the 2K range can be found but you will need three phase so a converter will add cost and complication. In the single phase world a PM 27 or 2700, or Asian 5 hp will be about as large as you can go. I built a study with a 3 hp shaper and while it needed more sanding and was mahagony it turned out fine. I soon wanted more power and stability though. If your kitchen is hickory, oak or maple it will also like the 5 hp vs 3 hp shaper. I don't run anything over a 3" diameter on a 3/4 spindle but that is just me. A feeder is a must have though. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

IMO any decent shaper 3hp or above will handle cabinetry needs. If you get into passage/entry doors, you may want a bigger shaper, for molding work it's nice to have a tank. The old delta's are obselete, no doubt there but scmi still supports a lot of parts on the older machines. Pull the schematics, set up a parts pronto account, you can check to see what they have, though sometimes they will take an order for a part that is no longer available, I'd guess thats rare. I have an older Minimax t-40', we have a bunch of older scmi machines at work, most of the major wear parts aree still available, you may find an odd nut or bolt or fence piece that is obselete. Delta on the other hand saw so many owners they have a notoriously short parts chain, I've been down that painful road, if you buy one of those also get a Bridgeport and a lathe so you can make your own parts!

You can make cabinets with a router table, it's a lot easier and more importantly much quicker with a power fed shaper, and when you are building a whole house, quicker can be important.

[Erik Loza]

... He went on to explain that companies like SCMI only support parts for about 7 years before they stop in part to force buyers to move to the newer tool version...

Albert, my thoughts in regards to that comment, above. There are two basic categories spare parts fall into in the machinery business. Or at least, for our company. The first category is "wearable" items, such as electrics, belts, bearings, and such. The second category is "major structural components", such as cast iron tables, spindles, sliding tables, and that type of thing. Wearable items, even if not available directly from the manufacturer, should still be available from aftermarket suppliers. For example, if you owned an 80's vintage T-110 and needed bearings or switches, I can think if half a dozen different indepenedent vendors who could hook you up, even if we did not have any in stock.

Major structural components can be more challenging. For example, if you had a damaged cast iron top from that 80's T-110 or needed parts for the sliding table (if it had one) then we could have a situation. But that is uncommon. The beauty about shapers is that they are a pretty simple piece of equipment and even if, say, the shaper hood was missing, it is very probable that a more current SCM hood or even a hood from a different shaper could be easily made to fit.

Anyway, the reason I mention all this is not sell you on used machine ( I don't sell used equipment, anyway) but simply to say that trust me, we have no "great plot" to force anyone to buy a new machine every 7 years. And to be totally honest, I don't think any of our competitors do, either. We all try hard to make machines which will last as long as possible. You can get some great deals on used stuff just as eaily as you can get a complete headache. Caveat emptor and be an educated buyer is the best advice.

Best of luck in your search,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

I'll give SCMI a plug. I've got used machines dating back to the 20's so parts aren't a big concern to me but I'm a Euro guy in the saw and shaper area and SCMI is my favorite for used. I would love an old Martin but when I do need a non generic part Carissa at Parts Pronto is my best friend. I've been surprised at how many parts are still available for my 1980s saw and pretty much everything is still there for the later shaper. There is more to break on a saw than a shaper so if the runout is good and the fence is all there you are golden- if you can deal with three phase. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

As a related topic, Freeborn shaper cutters show up on fleabay regularly. One idea would be to buy the profiles you like, and then resell when your project is done.

[Jeff Duncan]

The others have given great advice already. First off the Delta if an older model may well have been made by SCM. A quick look at the machine in person would reveal where it was manufactured. I haven't used one myself but I'd bet they're a decent machine, and if in good shape that's not a bad price.

Now as far as making a decision between industrial and home shop, and the particular machines you listed, I think your missing out on some good used machines. There are smaller Mini-Max and Felder machines that would be much closer to the quality of an industrial machine without a lot of the bulk. SCM made the T-100 and Sac a similar sized model which would be nice machines as well. If I was going to buy a new machine I'd personally want to stay away from the cheaper Asian copies. A good shaper can do so much work, a bad one can cause endless frustration. I'm not going to recommend what to buy or avoid, just advise you to do your homework and find something that's good quality and will do what you need it to.

Lastly I agree with the others concerning parts. I rebuilt a basket case Martin not too long ago and with a little looking I found almost everything I needed to get her purring like a kitten again. Only thing I couldn't find I didn't want that bad, and that was an original 2 step motor pulley. I figure I'll just throw a VFD on it at some point down the road;)

good luck,
jeffD

[Albert Chio]

Great input guys. My plan for the router is not just for cabinets but to perform other jobs that are much more efficient to perform if I had a shaper such complex moldings that I done on the past for headboards or other type of furniture. I understand that for my cabinets, I could manage with my current router setup but having a shaper wouldn't hurt.

As I said in my original post, at first I was only looking at the Grizzly and Powermatic shapers but brand new they cost upwards of $3000 and that is not including a power feeder which I want for safety reasons. So I started looking at used shapers on ebay and craigslist and that is when I realized that I could get an old SCMI or Delta RS-15 with a power feeder for much less than a brand new Grizzly or Powermatic 1-Phase and still have money left to buy a 3-Phase converter. My only concern was with parts in case I need to replace one later in the future and by parts I am referring to spindals or any other part that is not a "wearable" item. But from your inputs it looks like for these industrial shapers the likely hood of need to replace a part is very unlikely and for the SCMI case, finding parts for it shouldn't be a problem. The Delta RS-15 that I am interested only came with a 1.25" spindal so I wanted to see if I could also get the 1" version but as I said its been impossible since they no longer make parts for it.

So as of right now I am leaning towards a used SCMI T-110A if I can find one at a good price.

Thanks,
Albert

[Albert Chio]

Hi Jeff,

Is SAC and SCMI the same company? I come across on several SAC and SCM shapers but I couldn't find any reviews on them.

Thanks,
albert

[Peter Quinn]

Hi Jeff,

Is SAC and SCMI the same company? I come across on several SAC and SCM shapers but I couldn't find any reviews on them.

Thanks,
albert

No, SAC and SCMI are different companies. SAC still makes machines under their own name, and were sold through powermatic as the industrial line for a time when powermatic was owned by Houilledale. Yup, everyone things of powermatic as a venerable American company, but they have been owned by foreign companies for some time, and some of the best machines they every put their name on were made in Europe. SCM is I think the parent company for a number of brands, including SCMI, Minimax and a host of others. But there seem to be some machines labeled simply SCM, and some of the older industrial Delta machines were apparently made by SCM. Again, some of the best machines with the delta logo were made abroad.

http://www.scmgroupna.com/us/_home

http://www.sacsueri.it/company.php

[David Kumm]

Hi Jeff,

Is SAC and SCMI the same company? I come across on several SAC and SCM shapers but I couldn't find any reviews on them.

Thanks,
albert

No, both are or were Italian. Not sure if SAC is still around. Look at the machinery exchange on woodweb. There are SAC, SCM and RS15 shapers there. The video from 360 degree shows a pretty decent Delta Invicta for light money. Dave

[Albert Chio]

No, both are or were Italian. Not sure if SAC is still around. Look at the machinery exchange on woodweb. There are SAC, SCM and RS15 shapers there. The video from 360 degree shows a pretty decent Delta Invicta for light money. Dave

Hi Dave,

I did see that Delta you are referring to but somebody beat me to it.

Thanks,
albert

[David Kumm]

It's the Bauerle that I'd get. Dave

[Paul Symchych]

There are plenty of perfectly good used shapers on Craigslist. Unless you want bragging rights there is no need to go with one of the high end machines. I bought a used Jet 1.5HP and that works fine for hard woods like hickory and jatoba if the cutters are sharp.
For cutters, that is where the money can go. Top brand cutters are great if it is a profile you will use for some time. If there is a profile that you will only use a few times I have had good luck with Grizzly's cutters. At their prices they can be pitched when done or sharpened.

[Joe Jensen]

I'm a fan of Euro tools but I made a ton of very nice raised panel doors with a 3HP PM Model 26.

1) Get a 1HP feeder. I choose a 3 wheel because they are lighter. When I had the PM26 it was fixed in the upright position and I kind of wished I had bought a 4 wheel. Now I have it on a flip up mount on a Felder saw/shaper combo and the 4 wheel would be too heavy for me to flip.

2) Quality Cutters are expensive but worth it. My PM26 had a 3/4" spindle and I used mostly Freeborn cutters. They are great. The chinese cutters I bought for small runs of stuff dulled much quicker.

I don't know how long until you need the machine but I would budget for the feeder and a set of Freeborn door cutters and the appropriate raised panel and edge profile bits. Spend what's left on the shaper. 3HP is fine, just take 2 passes on the doors and feed slower on the raise and style stock.

[Jeff Duncan]

Albert, the others beat me to your question....but I'll also add that the reason Delta and Powermatic were having machines made in Italy was NOT b/c the quality was better, it was b/c of cost. Back then Italy was able to produce decent quality machines cheaper than we could here at home. The good thing is the machines are generally badged by the manufacturer. So for the Delta you will know if it was made in Italy (SCM), or Brazil, (Invicta), though it probably won't make much difference in the quality anyway?

The Delta RS15 is a very popular machine and if you comb e-bay spindles come up fairly often....HOWEVER....a 1" spindle is a pretty uncommon size, so unless you happen to have a bunch of tooling that size I don't know why you would want one? The 1-1/4" spindle is pretty much the standard spindle size these days. They come smaller and bigger, but that's the size that will provide you the most flexibility in tooling.....at least in this country;)

I'll just re-iterate that your looking at 2 completely different classes of machines. If you took an entry level Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet or whatever and threw it in a furnace and melted the whole machine down, you might barely have enough metal to make a table for something like the RS-15 or SCM T-110....but I doubt it;) These machines are just heavy and well built and will run all day long. The smaller machines can also get work done and are in use in cabinet shops all over the country though so.....?

Lastly you could also look into old American shapers. These sell for short money these days and are also heavy well built machines. I personally prefer the Euro style industrial cabinet shapers as I believe their more flexible.....but it's an option.

good luck,
jeffD

[Albert Chio]

Okay guys I have found three used shapers that I am interested. I am going to list them and you all let me know which what you all think and which one you would buy if you were in my shoes. The three that I found and am interested are:

1. 1986 Delta Invicta RS-15 for $2600 plus shipping = ~$3100 (includes power feeder)
2. SCMI T130 for $4900 plus shipping (Includes a power feeder but I think they are asking too much. What do you all think?)
3. SCMI T110A for $2700 plus shipping = ~$3100
4. SAC T120 for $3300 plus shipping = ~$3850

Also does anybody here know which is a heavier machine between the Delta RS-15 and SCMI T110A?

Thank You!

[David Kumm]

If the T130 is from Andy in CO I agree it is high. Invicta will be heavier but runout and condition are a big deal. The SAC is in WI? That looks pretty nice and is in the same league as the T110. Find out the weight as that will tell you something . T130 goes 1000-1200 lbs, I'm thinking the Invicta is similar and other two are in the 750 area. All stout machines. Steff feeders are a little better than comatic. How much time have you? Patience pays in the shaper deal. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

How much time have you? Patience pays in the shaper deal

That's very true. Good deals will come up on craigslist, auctions, etc, (search with searchtempest, auctionzip, bidspotter, irsauctions) but you need to wait until it does come up, and be able to recognize a good deal when you see it. Here is my t110:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152605-SCMI-T110-shaper-gloat

And as I said earlier, in the dc area there was recently a delta rs15 for 700 with a feeder and extra spindles. I'm assuming that the listed machines are with dealers, but there is no reason you can't buy the same way that they do. When I am looking for a machine, I take 15 minutes a day and just look. For me it's pretty fun, and you can pull out some pretty good deals.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK my two cents for what it's worth. Since I can't see the machines your looking at I'm going to have to base my thoughts on some pretty big assumptions. I'm going to assume all the machines are 10 plus years old and have some wear on them. I'm also going to assume they are ready to work, the bearings are good, the spindles run true, and they don't have any other issues that need to be addressed. Pretty big assumptions on my part....but things you have to think about before jumping head first in;)

The Invicta is reasonably priced and has the feed with it...bonus! I would be cautious if it's from a dealer as that's borderline too low asking price for a plug and play machine. If it's from a private seller and somehow guaranteed to work, that's probably the best deal in your list.

While the price for the T-130 is a bit high, this is a different class machine. It's a LOT more machine than any of the others on your list and so while worth more, I'd be hard pressed to want to go much over say $3500....again if in plug and play condition.

The SCM is about the right neighborhood. They do go cheaper at auctions and usually come with feeders as well. Buying direct though I don't think that asking price is too high.

The SAC on the other hand is a bit pricey and I wouldn't want to pay much more than $3k.

Again these are ball park prices, if there's one machine in mint condition or much newer than that will change the value a bit. On the other hand if there's a machine that looks like it's been rode hard and put away wet....well I think I'd just pass and wait for the next one. Remember there are plenty of shapers out there so don't rush into it. If you buy from a dealer you should have some sort of guarantee that it's ready to work, but that guarantee is going to cost you a bit more. If not from a dealer than you want to be very careful as guys sell junk machines all the time! Even a good machine that just needs a set of bearings could set you back another $600+!!!

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

If the machines are on WW the SCM are older and not looking as good as many I've seen at that price. Looks can be deceiving though. Dave

[Larry Prem]

I'd pay extra for digital controls. They make setup so much faster.
Like someone mentioned before, if you are using your shaper in a one man woodshop, 3HP are plenty enough. A large, feature bare machine will get you by.

In short, I would not pay extra for industrial throughput. I'd pay for industrial setup change times.

[David Kumm]

I'd pay extra for digital controls. They make setup so much faster.
Like someone mentioned before, if you are using your shaper in a one man woodshop, 3HP are plenty enough. A large, feature bare machine will get you by.

In short, I would not pay extra for industrial throughput. I'd pay for industrial setup change times.

Unless they are circuit board electrics. the first thing to go and the first things to not be supported. If machine specific the replacement will cost more than the machine. There are some add on digitals for shapers and mechanical counters for handwheels that work pretty well too. The set up timesaver I like best is a machine that only requires one pass to cut any profile. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Shapers are like bandsaws: You can never have too many and nobody ever bitches about having too much shaper, even for mundane stuff like raised panels. At least no owner I have talked to...


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Raisingpanelfirstpass.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Garnigapanel-raisingcutter.jpg

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik. good thing you're not in Canada, we just got rid of the penny. You couldn't put your 2 cents in.......LOL, Nice photo by the way........................Rod.

[Mike Heidrick]

Aigner and Garniga Erik? Yumm.

[Jeff Duncan]

Shapers are like bandsaws: You can never have too many and nobody ever bitches about having too much shaper, even for mundane stuff like raised panels. At least no owner I have talked to...


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Raisingpanelfirstpass.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/Garnigapanel-raisingcutter.jpg

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA


Yup....what he said:D