What is "Ol' Arn"?

[johnny means]

How would you define old iron? For example, I myself wouldn't consider any Unisaw as old iron because the design and build quality is pretty much the same as contemporary machines. Yet, I would consider an American slider from the same era Old Arn because of the outdated design and functionality.

[Jim Matthews]

If by outdated design you mean, built to outlast the pyramids, then yes.

I consider Old Arn to be pre-WWII, with unexpected flourishes in the castings.
(Like the Snowflake design...)

[Cary Falk]

The Unisaw is outdated in the fact that it doesn't have a riving knife. I consider anything older than me(1971) to be ol arn.

[David Kumm]

OWWM guys define it as non asian machinery over 20 years old. Unisaw qualifies. I break it into babbit or flat belt, ball bearing and cast iron, and fabricated steel period. Stuff with circuit board electronics is a whole subset- generally to be avoided. Dave

[David Weaver]

Ol Arn is one of the four horsemen.

Wooooooooo!

[johnny means]

[/QUOTE=Jim Matthews;2057170]If by outdated design you mean, built to outlast the pyramids, then yes.

I consider Old Arn to be pre-WWII, with unexpected flourishes in the castings.
(Like the Snowflake design...)[/QUOTE]

I should have said dated not outdated. What I mean is the use of designs and materials that have generally lost favor with manufacturers for any number of reasons. Cast iron bases, tilting tables, exposed bandsaw wheels, stylized castings, 50# miter gauges.

[John Bailey]

I've got a 1959 Oliver bandsaw, 1956 DeWalt RAS, and a 1939 Delta drill press. Basically, in concept, they are the same machines you could buy new. However, their lack of modern convenience, heft and inability of being able to buy anything like them today separates them from their younger siblings. I consider them all "OL' ARN."

John

[Ole Anderson]

Ol Arn is one of the four horsemen.

Wooooooooo!

Hey, keep my brother out of this!:p

[Mark Ashmeade]

How would you define old iron? For example, I myself wouldn't consider any Unisaw as old iron because the design and build quality is pretty much the same as contemporary machines. Yet, I would consider an American slider from the same era Old Arn because of the outdated design and functionality.

I think it's simply a matter of being old and made of iron. Nothing more needs to be read into it.

Modern manufacturing techniques mean that the build quality is mostly leagues ahead of 1940s stuff. The Unisaw of that era for example had a two-part casing. Ugly steel seams on the front of the machine. Modern ones don't have that. The intermediate design didn't have it either. Modern materials, such as UHMW plastic and Teflon have revolutionized certain features, the rip fence being an example. Fit and finish is generally of a much higher quality today than it was. Computerised drawings, manuals, all add up to a superior ownership experience. Same for bearings, cutterhead designs, safety focus, magnetic switches etc. Now some may prefer a very heavy machine and accept rough castings and open bearings. Others prefer a machine that is heavy enough, but has extra features that may be electronically controlled etc. Even the paint is vastly superior.

I'm not for or against either. I have a Delta longarm 16" RAS that hasn't changed in design since the 40s. I also have a Delta 1460, which is a 1948 model. They sit alongside a Sawstop PCS, which is about as far as you can get from "old arn".

I funded the Sawstop by selling a Powermatic 66 and a Powermatic 72. People laud the 66, and it was a stout machine, no doubt. But the splitter/guard was lacking, the dust collection poor, and the table was pretty small. The SS is about the same size as the 66, has a beautifully smooth rip fence, more iron in the top, and a vastly superior riving knife/guard assembly. There's really no comparison, yet the 66 is held up as being a "best of breed" design. The 72's body was made of fully 1/8" thick steel. Twice as thick as the 66. Very strongly built. Yet they couldn't put the safety stickers on straight, it didn't come with a dust shroud, and all the other shortcomings of the 66. It did however have a huge table and a 7.5HP motor.

Meh. Old arn is fine for some things (like a lathe) but not for others. At least in my shop, which is all I have to keep happy.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["old iron"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.
—Justice Potter Stewart,

Ok, I just had too :)

I think it might be different to each of us. The first unisaw is old iron IMHO, the last is not. Where did it change?

[Rich Riddle]

To me old iron predates the 1980's at a minimum. On a different note, I thought all new table saws, including the Unisaw, came standard with riving knives.

[Robert Boyd]

My definition is anything that was made before me(1975), made in North America, and weighs more than me.

Rob who is the current caretaker of a 36" & 26" Silver band saws, two 50's Delta HD shapers, Delta unisaw, two Walker Turner talble saws(cast iron and stamped steel body) and plenty of other hefty items.

[David Kumm]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

[Mark Ashmeade]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

I like the point about old low end stuff has gone to the landfill, so all that's left is the higher quality machines, ergo they have stood the test of time.

But I'm not sure about the 5" jointer model. I have a behemoth of a Moak shaper with huge oil cup bearings, a 7.5HP Baldor on it, and I'm practically having to give it away to get rid of it. I would be better off selling the motor, and weighing the rest in as scrap. I can't bring myself to do that, but it would be a sound financial move.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mark, I agree if you compare hobby to hobby stuff there isn't a lot of benefit of old over new. The ability to buy industrial grade for the same or less than hobby new is where the market is. The benfit of old vs new is also machine by machine. An old cast iron jointer with a 5 " head and big oil cup bearings is a superior design and quality to any comparably priced new jointer.
Again the lower end old stuff has largely disappeared as will most of the new hobby stuff in a number of years so what we seeing as "old arn" is the higher end of the food chain. I guess I would add to the definition of old arn is equipment that has stood the test of time and still competes favorably or more so with the current competition. Dave

David, I'm curious about your price quote, what would that old jointer have sold for originally?

Would it be in the order of what you'de pay for a comparable Martin jointer today?

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

My definition is anything that was made before me(1975), made in North America, and weighs more than me.

Rob who is the current caretaker of a 36" & 26" Silver band saws, two 50's Delta HD shapers, Delta unisaw, two Walker Turner talble saws(cast iron and stamped steel body) and plenty of other hefty items.

Why limit yourself to NA machines?

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Mark, I tend to agree on the shaper thing. They were solid but not very user friendly in comparison to the newer Euro ones. Usually had a poor fence and odd sized spindles. On the other hand $1000 buys a machine that with a feeder could run stuff all day. It is the set up that is the killer there. As to the jointer, I'd only trade my Porter for a Martin- of course there are no takers. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

I think it's simply a matter of being old and made of iron. Nothing more needs to be read into it.



That about sums it up for me, also. I have an old delta "school" lathe, two delta HD "prison shapers", and a Bridgewood, made by maggi, "ex harley davidson factory" radial arm saw; all old, and all with some iron, and I like that each has some interesting history. The radial arm saw was made in Italy, and I think that they made some arn also. Look at the old martin machines, they definitely have some iron in them.

[Mark Burnette]

One of the reasons new-ish machines end up in landfills is the use of unique parts, castings etc (including plastics), electronics and no factory support. The old stuff often used commonly-available parts or parts that can be rebuilt. It sucks to call the mfr. for a replacement toothed rack, spindle, or what-not & be told there are no parts available.

[Phillip Gregory]

To me old iron predates the 1980's at a minimum. On a different note, I thought all new table saws, including the Unisaw, came standard with riving knives.

As far as I can tell everything made since 2008 must have a riving knife as that is part of the latest UL tablesaw spec (UL 987.)

Defining old iron is pretty subjective, "I'll know it when I see it." Generally some huge piece of very heavy iron and steel industrial equipment from about the 1930s to the 1960s comes to mind. There must be a lack of anything "modern" such as much in the way of safety features and plastics or electronics. Flourishes in the castings, American manufacture, obsolete technology like babbitt bearings, and the white/cream, dove gray, or turquoise green paint colors are added pluses.

[Mel Fulks]

I consider the line to be the 1960s since that seems to be when Mechanite starts to disappear in the manufacture of woodworking machines and be reserved for metalworking . I started working about 1966 ,all of the old heavy duty saws had riving knives. Babbitt is not obsolete. When it is obsolete you might not have current for your shop since it is still used in power generation .

[Rich Engelhardt]

What is "Ol' Arn"?
How would you define old iron?


It's in the same class as unicorns, UFOs, bigfoot, the Dodo and passenger pidgeons...
People say they find it - but - close scrutiny of all offerings on CL reveal nothing but "vintage"....

"Vintage" can best be described as something broken, filthy and of an unknown age that's priced at least twice what a new item costs.

There have been some sightings of a sub species of Arn - Walker Turner Drill Presses - however so far these sightings have been unconfirmed.

[David Weaver]

Hey, keep my brother out of this!:p

I figured someone would have to get that joke, even if a lot of people didn't. Ole, every time you post, I hear Ole and Arn Anderson interviews inside my head!

[Igor Vasilenko]

How would you define old iron? For example, I myself wouldn't consider any Unisaw as old iron because the design and build quality is pretty much the same as contemporary machines. Yet, I would consider an American slider from the same era Old Arn because of the outdated design and functionality.

Hi,

I am new to SMC but have been browsing treads for about a year now.

I personally define "old arn" as Tannewitz, Northfield, Oliver, Yates, Wadkin, etc. These companies made (Northfield still makes) machines that were basically bomb-proof, and once you made some tune-up, it held for years. I am planing to someday aquire a used Northfield 18" or 25" planer, because all the parts are still available from them.

My 2 cents,
Igor.

[Mel Fulks]

There can be a an overly sentimental view of old machines,but there is also overly enthusiastic embrace of the new. We have TWO members here ,both engineers ,struggling to adjust and fix new jointers. Old iron left the factory adjusted and ready to use . Not with manuals with adjustment tips.

[David Kumm]

There can be a an overly sentimental view of old machines,but there is also overly enthusiastic embrace of the new. We have TWO members here ,both engineers ,struggling to adjust and fix new jointers. Old iron left the factory adjusted and ready to use . Not with manuals with adjustment tips.

Agreed. If there is one machine where old shines vs new it would be the jointer. No magic improvements due to technology. It's all about integrity and planing of the cast iron and the quality of the cutterhead. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Agreed. If there is one machine where old shines vs new it would be the jointer. No magic improvements due to technology. It's all about integrity and planing of the cast iron and the quality of the cutterhead. Dave

That's very true, however the old machines aren't always as good as the new machines.

I gave up a General jointer for a Hammer J/P. The Hammer has a better designed cutterhead that produces a better finish than the General did..........Rod.

[David Kumm]

That's very true, however the old machines aren't always as good as the new machines.

I gave up a General jointer for a Hammer J/P. The Hammer has a better designed cutterhead that produces a better finish than the General did..........Rod.

The Felder Silent Power head has no equal in my world. To me a jointer is more about flat and having the ability to handle boards i can barely lift than cut quality. The old General was pretty stout and likely to remain so forever while the Hammer will have a different life span. I'm a huge hammer fan though. Dave

[Mark Ashmeade]

I still think it's just a matter of old and made of iron. For every machine made in the early part of the 20th century that turned into a classic, there must be several that didn't. I think there are at least three categories:

a) Machines that are the equal or better in every respect to current machines. Eg Some old, big, jointers, high quality Radial Arm Saws
b) Machines that simply weren't that good in the first place, but are old. Eg Delta Homecraft shapers, 3-speed drill presses with two-spoke handles and square head jointers.
c) Machines that were good in their day, but aren't as good as the modern crop. Eg most straight blade planers, and pretty much every table saw will fall into this category.

Not all that is old is equal, and certainly not all that is new. So as I say, the term means it's old and made of iron to me. No other inference.

[David Kumm]

I still think it's just a matter of old and made of iron. For every machine made in the early part of the 20th century that turned into a classic, there must be several that didn't. I think there are at least three categories:

a) Machines that are the equal or better in every respect to current machines. Eg Some old, big, jointers, high quality Radial Arm Saws
b) Machines that simply weren't that good in the first place, but are old. Eg Delta Homecraft shapers, 3-speed drill presses with two-spoke handles and square head jointers.
c) Machines that were good in their day, but aren't as good as the modern crop. Eg most straight blade planers, and pretty much every table saw will fall into this category.

Not all that is old is equal, and certainly not all that is new. So as I say, the term means it's old and made of iron to me. No other inference.

Mark, I'd disagree with the last statement. Planers themselves are lower quality but the spiral head leaves a better finish. doesn't mean the planer will last like the old. A straight knife head in an old cast iron planer in the hands of someone who knows how to sharpen and even a good tersa head will give as good a finish as the spiral. It is the machine and the operator who have gone downhill. Same with tablesaws. Safety has gone way up and that is a big deal but the old saws were WAY better built- at least in the Oliver, Tanny yates, Greenlee levels. Martin is the only real comparable in build quality left. Not because older is better, just that cost is so high now to replicate that build. Dave

[Ole Anderson]

I figured someone would have to get that joke, even if a lot of people didn't. Ole, every time you post, I hear Ole and Arn Anderson interviews inside my head!

David, I am often reminded of Bill Murray's line out of Scrooged: "nobody gets me".

Ooo, one more post and I hit a grand.

[Howard Rosenberg]

He was my father's friend. From Pinsk, I believe.