Euro Style Cabinets? (Rant)

[Jack Pinkham]

253594

This small island cabinet was specified to have double 8.5" top drawers, then a 10" single, and the bottom was to be a single 12". The cabinets were drawn with full drawer fronts with very small reveal, perhaps 1/8". This is what our contractor installed: two double top drawers 2" deep, and the two bottom drawers are 7-3/4" deep. I realize that the Blumation slides require that drawers be a minimum of 25/32" shorter than the opening and that the specified drawer sizes were nominal and that actual drawers would be shallower, but this much? Are stretchers this wide standard for European cabinets? I calculate that we got about 40% less storage volume than we specified.

[David Wong]

Is this an exceptionally wide cabinet? Stretchers are not usually necessary for frameless cabinets. I have 36" wide frameless cabinets in my kitchen with full extension Blum Tandem slides. Three layers of drawers give me approximately 14.5", 8.5", and 4" depth drawers. A 3mm reveal between drawer faces.

[Jack Pinkham]

Is this an exceptionally wide cabinet? Stretchers are not usually necessary for frameless cabinets. I have 36" wide frameless cabinets in my kitchen with full extension Blum Tandem slides. Three layers of drawers give me approximately 14.5", 8.5", and 4" depth drawers. A 3mm reveal between drawer faces.
Nope, it's 32" wide.

[William C Rogers]

This is why I am building all of my own cabinets for my new house. I can make it just the way I want it.

[Bill Neely]

I agree with the other posters. Those stretchers are ridiculous, I wouldn't even use any in that application.

[Phil Thien]

I agree with the other posters. Those stretchers are ridiculous, I wouldn't even use any in that application.

If you go with a double drawer on top, you need some sort of a stretcher underneath. So for balance, you really need the other stretcher, too. Plus, the stretchers make the cabinet much stronger, especially if there is going to be heavy weight (like a stone top) resting on this thing.

[Dave Zellers]

Those stretchers could be turned 90º and pick up about 4" of drawer depth.

[Ole Anderson]

They overdid the stretchers IMO. I am sketching up some drawers which will use the Blumotion tandem slides. The china closet, 36" wide, will have a face frame, the other cabs will be frameless with openings up to 28.5". Are you saying that a stretcher is not required for those Blum slides? They look like they rest on a stretcher for proper support, with screws to the cab sides. If I do put in stretchers, how narrow can I get away with on a 36" opening? Pocket screw construction on the face frame.

[Jack Pinkham]

Those stretchers could be turned 90º and pick up about 4" of drawer depth.
My wife can hardly get a roll of wax paper or a box of Ziploc bags in the 2" deep drawers.


The reasons that he might have put the wide side of the stretcher vertical could be:
1. It reduces the cost of the drawers. He complained that he didn't realize how many drawers were required.
2. Despite claiming to have taught cabinetmaking to the area's premier remodeling company, he didn't know how to make Euro cabinets.

Based on his granite tile counter top installation, which we had to rip out, it seems that he thinks that his way of doing things trumps standard trade practices such as following the plans and specs or meeting accepted workmanship standards. Here is a photo of the granite tile counter top which he claims "meets ANSI standards" and which he only ripped out to make us happy:
253603

He claimed that once this was all grouted the uneven grout joints wouldn't be noticeable and that there would be lots of things on the counter that would hide the joints.

[Dave Zellers]

He complained that he didn't realize how many drawers were required.

So he can't count? Didn't he bid the job from plans?

[Jack Pinkham]

So he can't count? Didn't he bid the job from plans?\

Yes, I prepared the kitchen plan, elevations, and a cabinet schedule using Chief Architect.

[Joe Angrisani]

This small island cabinet was specified to have double 8.5" top drawers, then a 10" single, and the bottom was to be a single 12". The cabinets were drawn with full drawer fronts with very small reveal, perhaps 1/8". This is what our contractor installed: two double top drawers 2" deep, and the two bottom drawers are 7-3/4" deep. I realize that the Blumation slides require that drawers be a minimum of 25/32" shorter than the opening and that the specified drawer sizes were nominal and that actual drawers would be shallower, but this much? Are stretchers this wide standard for European cabinets? I calculate that we got about 40% less storage volume than we specified.

I'm missing something here, Jack. The original drawers add up to 30.5", which is about right for an average countertop, but nothing left for space between the drawers (however they're made). Were those dimensions the size of the drawer fronts? As made now, they add up to 17.5". Those stretchers can't be 4.33" (the missing 13"). Going by the size of the Blumotion slides, I'm guessing the stretchers are 2-1/2". Where's the other 6+ inches? Those three stretchers can't be eating the 40% storage volume you say you've lost.

Can you give us some actual dimensions? How far is it from the bottom of the countertop to the floor? Is this a low counter? 32" is pretty wide for one carcase. How far from bottom of countertop to top of toe kick? How wide are the stretchers (front face, top-to-bottom)? How big is the top opening? How big are the bottom openings?

Pending those numbers, it kinda looks like each stretcher is about an inch wider than it needs to be. But that means you should have 7.5", 9" and 11" drawers. Something's off. It must be a much-lower-than-average counter (and a contractor that can't run a tape measure).

[Jeff Duncan]

The stretchers, which are not necessary for Euro cabinets, are too wide. Stretchers in Euro cabinets are 3/4" thick and the width, roughly 4", goes into the cabinet. This should all be spec'd out in the construction details whoever provided them. Also I'm sure you had a reason, but doing double drawers on the top wastes a LOT of space. A better solution may have been to split a drawer box in half? Of course you may have a good reason, just stating that there's a lot of space gone just from that decision alone.

As far as the drawer height that's pretty common. Again unless something different is spec'd out in the construction drawings it's up to the builder to choose the height. Usually in these types of drawers people are putting pots and pans which don't generally need the sides to be full hight. If you needed/wanted the drawers to go full height you should have had it spelled out somewhere along the way.

Anyway not that we need to keep harping on this guy, but he's a 'jack of all trades' master of none, who thinks he knows a lot but really doesn't. It's become clear in these posts that he's not competent to be doing half the work he's doing and that's not going to change. The unfortunate thing is that until you finally get rid of him these problems are just going to continue. I hate to sound so negative but I've followed behind so many of these kinds of guys it's like a bad movie....you basically know what's going to happen before it does:(

good luck,
JeffD

[mreza Salav]

wow, not to pile on your frustration but if that's the tiling job he has done and thinks is acceptable I'd ask him to leave if I had the option. There is no way I'd agree to such kind of "standard"...

[Jack Pinkham]

The stretchers, which are not necessary for Euro cabinets, are too wide. Stretchers in Euro cabinets are 3/4" thick and the width, roughly 4", goes into the cabinet. This should all be spec'd out in the construction details whoever provided them. Also I'm sure you had a reason, but doing double drawers on the top wastes a LOT of space. A better solution may have been to split a drawer box in half? Of course you may have a good reason, just stating that there's a lot of space gone just from that decision alone.

As far as the drawer height that's pretty common. Again unless something different is spec'd out in the construction drawings it's up to the builder to choose the height. Usually in these types of drawers people are putting pots and pans which don't generally need the sides to be full hight. If you needed/wanted the drawers to go full height you should have had it spelled out somewhere along the way.

Anyway not that we need to keep harping on this guy, but he's a 'jack of all trades' master of none, who thinks he knows a lot but really doesn't. It's become clear in these posts that he's not competent to be doing half the work he's doing and that's not going to change. The unfortunate thing is that until you finally get rid of him these problems are just going to continue. I hate to sound so negative but I've followed behind so many of these kinds of guys it's like a bad movie....you basically know what's going to happen before it does:(

good luck,
JeffD

Good point about double drawers being less efficient.

He was given a cabinet schedule which had all the drawer heights listed. We could live with drawers without full height sides as long as the drawers would accept items close to the specified drawer height. For example, we have no problem with a 12" nominal height drawer with drawer sides which are only 5 or 6 inches high as long as a 10" deep pot fits in it. What we can't accept are drawers that can't hold items because the stretchers take up so much space. For example,being only able to store a 7-3/4" high pot in a drawer which was to be a nominal 12" drawer.

[Bill Neely]

If you go with a double drawer on top, you need some sort of a stretcher underneath. So for balance, you really need the other stretcher, too. Plus, the stretchers make the cabinet much stronger, especially if there is going to be heavy weight (like a stone top) resting on this thing.

Not neccessarily true. I've built cabinets with a pair of 'pencil drawers' supported by a member running fore and aft without a stretcher. In any case he could have just as easily made the bottom of the small drawer fronts overlay the stretcher and avoided any balance issues.

[Joe Jensen]

The cabinets are terrible. The stretcher look terrible and the grain running vertical would only make sense if the doors and drawer fronts were all full overlay and the grain all matched on each door and drawer. I doubt you can take action against him. I believe I could remove the stretchers and if I were you I'd do that and have all the doors and drawer fronts remade to fit without the stretchers and with the grain running horizontally.

[Charles Brown]

That's a Mickey Mouse looking euro cabinet if I've ever seen one. Euro boxes built correctly don't need those kinds of stretchers. This may be a case of a guy with a table saw saying, "sure, I can build that." Not everyone needs a cnc to build euro boxes but they should at least be familiar with AWI or similar standards for any sort of cabinet work.

maybe I'm missing something. Did he order these out or build them?

[Phil Thien]

Not neccessarily true. I've built cabinets with a pair of 'pencil drawers' supported by a member running fore and aft without a stretcher. In any case he could have just as easily made the bottom of the small drawer fronts overlay the stretcher and avoided any balance issues.

Good points.

[Richard Coers]

I'm guessing he is using biscuits in the joint and didn't think about runing those horizontal instead of vertical.
Jack,
Can you really afford to keep this guy on site? I mean emotionally? There is not a thing he does correctly, you have to have a horrible relationship with him now, and I don't imagine he cares one little bit now. He knows there is probably not going to be any more payments made. If you care to say, what percent have you paid him so far? You are definitely not paying him any more are you? Have you considered going to a big box store, or IKEA (they have a vertical grain natural beech that is close to your look), and just starting over? You will have a kitchen in about the same time, and this guy will only be seen again when battled in court. You are going to have to "cut bait" as they say, and get away from this hack. Best of luck!

[Ron Kellison]

My questions: Has he been paid? Is there a hold-back?

Ron

[Joe Angrisani]

....what percent have you paid him so far? You are definitely not paying him any more are you?.....


Has he been paid? Is there a hold-back?

Inquiring minds want to know....

[scott vroom]

The tile layout is a joke. And no edge profiling? I'd dump this guy in a heartbeat. Cut your loses 'cause it won't get any better.

Here's how we layout our inside corners (work in progress, backsplash not yet grouted); also notice the bullnosed edge profiling:

[Cary Falk]

I have never made a Euro cabinet but I think I could do better than that blindfolded.

[Greg R Bradley]

If the cabinet does not convince you that he is incompetent, the counter should make it obvious.

[Shawn Pixley]

I don't think that it is anything relative to Euro style or traditional style, the guy is a hack.

[johnny means]

I may ask, how did this guy get the job? Was there a bidding process? Did you shop around? I would be surprised if that sort of craftsmanship would garner any references.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

No matter how deep,you feel you are into this project with this guy, there comes a time when it's better to throw the bum out. We contracted to have a studio built for my wife, the project went from 2 months, to three, to five.. . He wanted still more money, after all it was taking so long. No surprise he was working less than 20 hours a week. We threw him out, the subs put liens on our house, he hadn't payed them. We took him to court, we won, he payed us $500/mo for two years, we payed the subs, I finished nothing that was left.

It wasn't what we planned, but the results were good in the end and it was a huge relief to be rid of him.

It sounds to me that everything that's being worked on is a disaster. You won't get it done right with a million punch lists. Cut him loose. Do it yourself or find some who can. Try to recover your expenses, but if it doesn't work out, life is learning little by little. I love great contractors. Bad ones I'll send packing ASAP. Bad work leaves a bad taste in your mouth forever. Do you want to get up every morning o the kitchen this guy is producing? Didn't think so....

[Jack Pinkham]

No matter how deep,you feel you are into this project with this guy, there comes a time when it's better to throw the bum out. We contracted to have a studio built for my wife, the project went from 2 months, to three, to five.. . He wanted still more money, after all it was taking so long. No surprise he was working less than 20 hours a week. We threw him out, the subs put liens on our house, he hadn't payed them. We took him to court, we won, he payed us $500/mo for two years, we payed the subs, I finished nothing that was left.

It wasn't what we planned, but the results were good in the end and it was a huge relief to be rid of him.

It sounds to me that everything that's being worked on is a disaster. You won't get it done right with a million punch lists. Cut him loose. Do it yourself or find some who can. Try to recover your expenses, but if it doesn't work out, life is learning little by little. I love great contractors. Bad ones I'll send packing ASAP. Bad work leaves a bad taste in your mouth forever. Do you want to get up every morning o the kitchen this guy is producing? Didn't think so....

We don't want him back in the house. We gave him a long punch list and said that unless he committed in writing to correct all the items in an professional manner and within an expedited time frame, we would file a complaint with the state construction contractors board. His response was to tell us that we have unreasonable expectations and that we have caused him so much stress that he's had to see a doctor. He also accused us of insulting his employees and micro-managing the work. The "micro-managing" was because I made him replace his new 1/2" plywood sub-floor without edge support with 3/4" tongue and groove plywood panels. The sub-floor is for ceramic floor tile. Without edge supported sub-floor panels of at least 3/4" thickness, the tile and grout will crack. He was also going to adhere the cement board to the plywood panels with construction adhesive. I had to show him the manufacturers specs which prohibit this. We "insulted" his employees by telling the contractor that some of their work was not acceptable. We never told any of his employees how to do their job or commented directly to them about their work. As for the job taking 18 weeks and still not being completed, that was our fault, because on one day out of the 18 weeks we said that we were busy that day.

I'm going to get estimates from three contractors to finish the job. These will be used to document our case with the contractors board and in court, if required.

[William C Rogers]

Jack

Let me be the first to congratualte you on your decision. I know I gave you a short answer "this is why I am building my own cabinets", but that was because I was shocked to see this guy's last cabinet with a combination face frame/euro construction. I have never built cabinets before and yes I am making some mistakes, however I am correcting them by re-doing. They need to be right. Come on, a 2 inch drawer, 2 1/2 streachers?!! I don't think you would have ever been happy if you let this guy finish. At least now you can say, I had to fire the first guy and get someone to fix all of his mistakes. I am getting ready to build a house and do my own general contracting. I hope I don't run into a contractor like you had. But from your experience I can see not to let it go on too long. I wish you the best of luck finding someone who can fix the job. Post on what you new contractor says about finishing the project.

Bill

[Mike Cutler]

jack

You made the right decision. That tile job was beyond belief. Wow!

[Jack Pinkham]

That's a Mickey Mouse looking euro cabinet if I've ever seen one. Euro boxes built correctly don't need those kinds of stretchers. This may be a case of a guy with a table saw saying, "sure, I can build that." Not everyone needs a cnc to build euro boxes but they should at least be familiar with AWI or similar standards for any sort of cabinet work.

maybe I'm missing something. Did he order these out or build them?

He built them himself. He assured us that he taught cabinetmaking to the area's premier remodeling company.
He also claimed to have worked in 5 cabinet shops after we complained that the corner base cabinets all had their backs 9" away from the walls. "That's the way we always do them."

[Jack Pinkham]

The cabinets are terrible. The stretcher look terrible and the grain running vertical would only make sense if the doors and drawer fronts were all full overlay and the grain all matched on each door and drawer. I doubt you can take action against him. I believe I could remove the stretchers and if I were you I'd do that and have all the doors and drawer fronts remade to fit without the stretchers and with the grain running horizontally.

Yes, I agree that this would be the most practical fix at this stage. It would give us back the 40% or so of specified drawer volume that he's cheated us out of.

[Jack Pinkham]

My questions: Has he been paid? Is there a hold-back?

Ron

Unfortunately he's been paid in full. I must have been in outer space when I did that.

[Jack Pinkham]

I'm missing something here, Jack. The original drawers add up to 30.5", which is about right for an average countertop, but nothing left for space between the drawers (however they're made). Were those dimensions the size of the drawer fronts? As made now, they add up to 17.5". Those stretchers can't be 4.33" (the missing 13"). Going by the size of the Blumotion slides, I'm guessing the stretchers are 2-1/2". Where's the other 6+ inches? Those three stretchers can't be eating the 40% storage volume you say you've lost.

Can you give us some actual dimensions? How far is it from the bottom of the countertop to the floor? Is this a low counter? 32" is pretty wide for one carcase. How far from bottom of countertop to top of toe kick? How wide are the stretchers (front face, top-to-bottom)? How big is the top opening? How big are the bottom openings?

Pending those numbers, it kinda looks like each stretcher is about an inch wider than it needs to be. But that means you should have 7.5", 9" and 11" drawers. Something's off. It must be a much-lower-than-average counter (and a contractor that can't run a tape measure).

OK, the specified drawer sizes I quoted didn't consider the clearance needed for the slides and didn't assume any stretchers. Also when I listed the actual drawer size, I didn't list the drawer opening heights, just the actual drawer inside depth. So I over-stated the difference between specified and actual drawer volumes.

Here are the actual dimensions of the cabinet:

floor to bottom of counter top: 35-5/8"
toe kick: 4"
three stretchers each 2-1/4" high
bottom panel: 3/4" thick

top drawer opening: 4", drawer inside depth: 2", drawer side height: 3" , drawer front: 5-1/2"
middle drawer opening: 10", drawer inside depth: 7-3/4", drawer side height: 8-3/4", drawer front: 11"
bottom drawer opening: 10" drawer inside depth: 7-3/4", drawer side height: 8-3/4", drawer front: 11-1/4"

There is about 1/2"- 5/8" distance between the top of drawer sides and the opening and between the bottom of the drawer sides and the opening.

[Peter Quinn]

The cabinets are a hack. It saddens me that your project has reached this point, and I truly hope it can be turned around quickly. I particularly like the "Your micro managing me...." defensive response, as if that weren't your inalienable right as the paying customer and guy that has to live with the results for a long time. Apparently that guy has never really worked the high end and had his work constantly under a microscope before? All of your concerns and criticisms I've read have been spot on, that guy should be reported to some one. Not every guy with a TS should be building cabinets. I'm hoping you have a good contract and a decent lawyer.