Woodworking Apron.

[keith micinski]

I can't take it anymore. After 15 years of walking back and forth all over my shop to get pencils, tape measures, and my little pad of paper I want an Apron. I think part of it is also that I went to the Grand Rapids Museum the other day and they had a whole room dedicated to there extensive local furniture industry and they had some really cool displays with some vintage woodworking aprons. I thought "Heck I'll just go online and order me one of those up". I am having no luck finding much of anything other then cooking aprons and maybe a thin piece of denim with one pocket on it. Does anybody know where I can look to get a real woodworking apron with a couple of pockets and maybe a breast pocket for some pencils? I also really like the Railroad stripe pattern which I guess I just learned is called hickory stripe but I could maybe compromise on that.

[keith micinski]

Something like this would work except everywhere I find something like this online its sold out.
http://www.unionmadegoods.com/Stanley_&_Sons_Deluxe_Apron_in_Father_and_Son_Stripe_5469.h tml


I will say one cool thing I saw in the displays were that the Aprons were somehow attached to the shirts and didn't have a piece that rapped around the back of your neck. I like that idea because one of the main reasons I don't like to wear an apron is because it bothers me hanging around the back of my neck.

[Jerry Wright]

I have a nice leather apron that came from Lie Nielson tools, I think.

[Andrew DiLorenzo]

Mine came from Duluth Trading-don't know if they still sell them.

[Terry Therneau]

Rockler sells one that has an "X" back so it doesn't hang on the neck, I've used one for several years and like it. Woodcraft has 3 or 4 choices. Duluth Trading Company has one with mesh bottom pockets so the sawdust filters out, that may be my next one.

[Peter Kelly]

The canvas ones from Lee Valley have the cross-straps on the back as well.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=57647&cat=1,43413,45989&ap=1

[John Hays]

Does it have to be an apron? Blaklader makes some good vests with lots of pockets and are much cheaper than what you're looking at. Of course, they don't carry any in the hickory stripe pattern, but I haven't seen that since I was a kid. LOL

Check out the vests on McFeely's at this link: http://www.mcfeelys.com/shop/blakladervest

[keith micinski]

Boy I think that vest is the most practice way to go but I have my heart set on an apron now. I just bought a pair of extreme fire hose pants from Duluth and they are the best article of clothing I have ever purchased so I will have to check there to.

[keith micinski]

This three days in a row now I have gotten sidetracked on something I am now considering making my own like like I don't have better things to do with my time. I want a vest apron hybrid with all the right pockets in all the right spots. This could get interesting.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Keith
Great shop aprons http://www.aprons.net/sm.htm. LV apron is great, just too long and pockets to large small tools get lost. Tom

[Rick Potter]

The vest apron is a great option, but it won't protect your pants when you reach across that fresh stained cabinet to get something. My apron is covered with stain and paint spots. Depends on what you use it for, of course.

Rick Potter

[Josh Doran]

Take a look at artifactbags.com. They sell an artisan apron that looks durable and made for woodworking. It ain't cheap
but recommended by the Schwarz. Haven't tried it yet myself.

[Matt Day]

Take a look at bike mechanic's aprons (bike as in human powered bike). I wore one all the time as a bike mechanic, and when I need one in the wood shop that's what I use.

I have a Salsa brand one which apparently is discontinued. Here's a link to a few examples: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=332

[Ron Kellison]

The canvas ones from Lee Valley have the cross-straps on the back as well.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=57647&cat=1,43413,45989&ap=1

I've had one of these for several years and find it very comfortable. It replaced an old denim apron with pockets in the front that collected sawdust and chips better than my ShopVac!

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have a Tormek apron. I like it. NO hammer loop though. Long straps, X design so the weight is not on your neck. 40 buck or so from Advanced Machinery or Highland. Kinda partial to Tormek though.

[Keith Outten]

Your in luck!

We just happen to have a Member here who makes custom aprons.

Here is the link to a FreeStuff drawing (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?99278-Winner-!-Dec-30-Freestuff-Custom-made-Leather-Apron&highlight=leather+apron) that we had back in 2008, this is the exact same apron that CW McClellan made for me. Mine was custom made to fit my personal specifications.

Here is a link to a thread in our store (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?57089-SawMill-Creek-Aprons) that has some pictures of turners aprons, etc.

CW made two leather aprons for me and custom leather travel clothes bags for Jackie and myself last year. Very high quality stuff at very reasonable prices.

You can contact CW by PM at
CW McClellan (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/private.php?do=newpm&u=16634) (Private Message)
Email @ cwmcclellan@prtcnet.com
Mcclellan Leather Crafts
3195 Poplar Springs Rd, Ware Shoals, SC 29692-3731
Contact Phone (864) 861-2172
.

[Patrick McCarthy]

I second the Tormek apron. I have a LN leather and I prefer the Tormek for most things.

Funniest thing to me - - - because I am slow- - - was trying to figure out why they put a velcro patch on the bottom right corner of the apron and a corresponding one on the left chest/strap joint . . . . . . . until I had to visit the men's room and suddenly it all made sense. Very practical, Don't know if they make a left hand version LOL.

approx. $40 from Klingspor IIRC

[Charlie Barnes]

Does it have to be an apron? Blaklader makes some good vests with lots of pockets and are much cheaper than what you're looking at. Of course, they don't carry any in the hickory stripe pattern, but I haven't seen that since I was a kid. LOL

Check out the vests on McFeely's at this link: http://www.mcfeelys.com/shop/blakladervest

Here's a second on the vest option. I got one of these for Christmas and I can't say enough positive things about it. I've had a couple of different styles of aprons over the years, but this works better for me in just about every way. There are plenty of pockets to keep things handy including some on the back side for larger items (12" Starret square, etc.) that you don't want banging into your equipment/project. Probably my favorite feature is that the upper pockets are "hinged" which allows them to swing out went you bend over so you don't end up dumping your pencils, steel rules, etc.

Charlie

[Dave Cav]

I have been wearing a Lee Valley all day, every day, at school for years. Then on the weekend, in my shop at home, I wear the other Lee Valley. I like that the pockets have a lot of room and they don't fill up with sawdust. The only change I have made to both of them is to vertically sew the top pocket, dividing it into a number of thin sections to hold pencils and rulers.


Now we need a thread on what lives in your apron pockets.

[Shawn Pixley]

I use a leather apron. It doubles as a blacksmithing apron and I add blacksmithing chaps. It is very exciting to have a cinder or hot steel burn through your jeans or fall into your shoe. I bought mine at woodcraft but you can find them at Highland woodworking, ebay, etc...

[mark kosse]

I use a roundhouse from woodworkers supply. US made, flaps on the pockets, long enough and doesn't hang on your neck. Like dave, the only mod made was to devide the upper pockets. Only the woodworkers supply version has flaps and they're about 30.00.

[Andrew Joiner]

Here's a second on the vest option. Probably my favorite feature is that the upper pockets are "hinged" which allows them to swing out went you bend over so you don't end up dumping your pencils, steel rules, etc.

Charlie

Exactly my favorite part of the Skillers vest I got as a gift 40 years ago. I put screws in boxes made to fit the hinged pockets. No spilling and you don't have to poke your fingers on screw tips to change screw sizes. Just pop in boxes of the screws you need. I never wore my leather tool belt again.

[Rick Moyer]

http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-workshop/tool-bags-tool-belts/shop-aprons-shop-coats/85021.aspx

I have, and like, this one. Enough places to keep necessities. Lower pockets have heavy mesh bottoms so sawdust doesn't accumilate.

[keith micinski]

When I typed this up last night after spending a half an hour on the Internet looking for aprons I almost didn't even post it because I wasn't sure anybody else would have any interest in aprons. Thanks for all of the input so far it has far exceeded my expectations. I have a lot of time to think in my day job being a Heavy equipment operator and the more I thought about it today I think I am going to try and create my own apron vest hybrid. I like the comfort of a vest as overalls or any other kind of straps around my neck or shoulders always bother me. I do want the long length of an apron though so I think I am going to create a vest that has a long apron front on it and actually buttons on the side. This is probably going to turn into a fiasco since I haven't done any sewing since I took a sewing class in high school so you guys will probably get some good laughs out of this.

[Andrew Joiner]

When I typed this up last night after spending a half an hour on the Internet looking for aprons I almost didn't even post it because I wasn't sure anybody else would have any interest in aprons. Thanks for all of the input so far it has far exceeded my expectations. I have a lot of time to think in my day job being a Heavy equipment operator and the more I thought about it today I think I am going to try and create my own apron vest hybrid. I like the comfort of a vest as overalls or any other kind of straps around my neck or shoulders always bother me. I do want the long length of an apron though so I think I am going to create a vest that has a long apron front on it and actually buttons on the side. This is probably going to turn into a fiasco since I haven't done any sewing since I took a sewing class in high school so you guys will probably get some good laughs out of this.

Good for you Keith. It be a fiasco or a huge success. Never know till you try. I've remodeled and repaired my store bought vest some with hotmelt glue. It holds on fabric ok, it's fast and easy to change. I love having pockets and pouches exactly were I want them.

[Jim Neeley]

I really like mine especially for hand tool work. It does not have the upper (pencil) pocket but it has everything else I like:

* Made of *very* heavy weight cotton; protective yet cool.
* Crossing back strap rather than a neck strap
* Two shaped pockets (stay open; will collect thrown shavings but easyto get hand into or to hold a block plane, wax, pencil, etc.)
* Ridgid cord makes putting it on and taking it off easy.
* Quick release sliding "cincher" makes tightening up the strap quick and painless.

For me it provides most of the advantage of a leather apron except cooler and lighter.

That's important here in tropical Alaska (at least in my heated shop! :) )

253631

Additional pictures and more info is available at http://robcosman.com/tools_clothing.php

You've mentioned making your own; if you find that frustrating or do not have a machine capable of sewing the material you want for your apron, you may want to try a tent and tarp company. Here in Alaska, ours makes custom tents so has the equipment for sewing heavy canvas and they will do it to your specifications. Probably not cheap but you'd get exactly what you want.

Jim

[Don Morris]

I had the Woodcraft one with cross strap for years. Loved it and now have the Rockler also with cross strap. It has 4 pockets along the bottom plus a couple pencil pockets at the top. Versatile, inexpensive, adjustable, reasonably durable. I'm happy.

[keith micinski]

I probably am going to have to buy a new sewing machine so this vest/apron hybrid better revolutionize the apron industry because it is going to get pretty expensive:)

[Lee Schierer]

You might want to consider one of these from Lee Valley. 253694 They also make some really nice shop aprons, including one made of leather.

[Larry Dunn]

I had the same problem and could not really find anything that would work. Although I am in the process of making my own aprons ( I have some left over cotton duck I was using to make equipment covers), you might consider just picking up a good quality apron and sewing on a pocket or two to suit your needs. I have altered an apron I already had to keep the pencils and things in the pockets so I know that works. In these examples (attached photo), I added a small pocket for drill bits. Seems like I am always changing between bits and got tired of pulling them out of a saw dust filled pocket, or losing them under something on the bench. I plan to add another small pocket for an eraser. The flap pocket I added to my existing apron didn’t work either. The minute I rubbed up against something the pocket was open so I decided to add some snaps to see how that works. In this case I installed the center snaps in the pleats. That way I can close them using my thumb and index finder. I will use cross straps to complete this little project.

Any reasonable sewing machine will sew 10 to 11 ounce cotton duck which most aprons are made of. Add-ons do not need to be the same material either. Look around, you may have an old soft cooler, computer bag or something like that you can cut up and use. D rings and snap hooks can usually be salvaged as well.

If you can cut a straight line with a band saw, you can surely sew a pocket on. All you need is some basting tape. Fold your pocket up to the desired shape, add some basting tape to the back, stick it on and sew. Kind of like carpet tape and templates. That278875 is if you access to a sewing machine.

As I was typing this thing I got side tracked and was searching for some ideas as to how to position the straps. It seems that Rockler discontinued their cross back apron. Marc's is out of stock, so is the Shop Smith version.

[Ellen Benkin]

I have used the Rockler denim apron for years and just got a new one for Christmas. They have lots of pockets and I especially like the fact that it does not rest on my neck. They are also machine washable! I wear it to carry stuff and also to keep my teeshirt clean. They do wear out but are easily replaced.

[keith micinski]

I got so busy this year I kind of forgot about how much I wanted a custom hybrid vest/apron and now I am right back to wanting to do this project again.. I think I am going to call it a Vapron.

[John A langley]

Here is mine it is a Blaklader does not hurt my shoulders like the narrow strapped one 278900278901

[keith micinski]

I like that one but wish it had more of a longer apron front on it. I might buy one of those and modify it.

[Mansell Bettez]

Picked up one of these when they were for sale for $20.00.

Nice apron, USA Made.

https://www.pointerbrand.com/index.php/aprons/shop-apron-hickory-stripe.html

[Jeff Heil]

I am on my second shop apron from Duluth Trading Co. This is the newer version of mine. Since I started wearing a shop apron my T-shirts last longer and have less glue and paint splatters. Well constructed and durable.

http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-workshop/tool-bags-tool-belts/shop-aprons-shop-coats/96543.aspx

[George Bokros]

I am a tall guy (6'3"), how would the Duluth Trading fit me? I bought an apron locally and it was to short so I returned it.

Thanks

George

[keith micinski]

Everything I buy new now is Duluth trading company. By far and away the best products and best company I deal with. Unfortunately the straps on that one won't cut it for me. I really like the idea of taking that blacklader one and modifying it so I have the vest style I want and the longer front length I want. George I have found most Duluth stuff is either a little big or right on size. In the photo It looks like that apron is plenty long on what you would have to assume is an average height man of 5' 10" or so.

[Yonak Hawkins]

After 15 years of walking back and forth all over my shop to get pencils, tape measures, and my little pad of paper I want an Apron.

keith, several years ago I had the same thought as you, for the same reason, so I bought two different styles of aprons to decide which one I liked. Well, I'm an old dog and I apparently can't learn new tricks. I still set everything down and lose track of where I put it, but I now always know I can find a sharp pencil in the bib pocket of the apron hanging in the closet.

[Rick Moyer]

keith, several years ago I had the same thought as you, for the same reason, so I bought two different styles of aprons to decide which one I liked. Well, I'm an old dog and I apparently can't learn new tricks. I still set everything down and lose track of where I put it, but I now always know I can find a sharp pencil in the bib pocket of the apron hanging in the closet.
That's funny. The one thing I still tend to put down and not put back in the apron is a pencil. That's why I start with three of them!

[Paul Wunder]

The Rockler apron is most comfortable with the rear cross straps and "snap together" ties. Nice quality material and plenty of useful pockets. It is my favorite. I also have a Duluth (nice apron; too short)

[Walt Akers]

Keith:

Rockler has a couple of them. The denim variant (http://www.rockler.com/cross-back-shop-apron)
which has a variety of pockets, a leather one (http://www.rockler.com/long-leather-shop-apron)
which has the benefit of providing more protection and giving you less weight to carry in your wallet,
and finally the turner's apron (http://www.rockler.com/woodturners-leather-apron) which will
make you look like you could be carrying out medical experiments in a secret underground lab.

Walt

[Stan Krupowies]

http://www.duluthtrading.com/store/mens/mens-workshop/tool-bags-tool-belts/shop-aprons-shop-coats/85021.aspx

I have, and like, this one. Enough places to keep necessities. Lower pockets have heavy mesh bottoms so sawdust doesn't accumilate.

How well do the mesh pockets work with screws and such? Do they let the screws fall through?

[Stephen Musial]

My wife got me the black Lee Valley one for Christmas. It was more for her than for me because she was tired of me coming into the house covered in chips and sawdust. I love it - now I always have a pencil and tape with me and it's very comfortable to wear. So comfortable in fact that I was at the hardware store getting some bolts and went to get my wallet out and realized I still had it on.

[Daniel Rode]

I've been using the Rockler apron for several years as well. If it ever wears out, I'll probably buy another one. The Duluth Trading mesh bottom pockets are brilliant but it's too short and I much prefer the X style straps.

Rockler sells one that has an "X" back so it doesn't hang on the neck, I've used one for several years and like it. Woodcraft has 3 or 4 choices. Duluth Trading Company has one with mesh bottom pockets so the sawdust filters out, that may be my next one.

[lowell holmes]

Plus 2 for the Lee Valley apron with the cross straps. It must be 5 years old.

[Rick Moyer]

How well do the mesh pockets work with screws and such? Do they let the screws fall through?
I've never put screws in the mesh pockets. there are pockets right behind the screw pockets that have flaps and are not mesh-bottom. They would be fine for screws.
I have my dust collector remote in one mesh pocket and a tape measure in another. Don't generally use the middle one yet.

Curious, for those of you saying the Duluth apron is too short: How tall are you? Mine comes to mid-thigh which is also where my natural reach comes to, making it a perfect length. I DO use a different apron for finishing which is just a plain-faced leather one, and that one comes to my knees.
btw, I am 5'10".

[Jacob Larsen]

I've never put screws in the mesh pockets. there are pockets right behind the screw pockets that have flaps and are not mesh-bottom. They would be fine for screws.
I have my dust collector remote in one mesh pocket and a tape measure in another. Don't generally use the middle one yet.

Curious, for those of you saying the Duluth apron is too short: How tall are you? Mine comes to mid-thigh which is also where my natural reach comes to, making it a perfect length. I DO use a different apron for finishing which is just a plain-faced leather one, and that one comes to my knees.
btw, I am 5'10".

I have the original, first generation of Duluth apron. I'm just a little under 6' 2" and it comes down just below my waist. The only complaints I have are that the pockets fill with sawdust (fixed with the new version) and the waist strap is just long enough to wrap around my large frame. The strap system is quite comfortable, keeping it off your neck. I keep pencils in the top pocket, and a small tape measure, hex key sets, multi head screwdriver, and utility knife in the pockets. I occasionally add a wrench or other tools depending on the project. I wear it mostly for the convenience of carrying a tape measure and pencil and for wiping excess glue off my fingers. I do not wear it while finishing. I like it enough that I have been seriously considering upgrading to the new version with the mesh pockets and the added pockets with flaps.

[john davey]

Nobody is ever going to confuse me with a skinny guy :).... Just wondering if any of these are big enough for a short guy with a 44 inch waist? My usual problem being short but heavy is that to get something to fit properly around the gut they make it really long. I don't want to be digging in pockets around my knees... No Rockler or Lee Valley around to try these things. Thanks, John...

[keith micinski]

Keith:

Rockler has a couple of them. The denim variant (http://www.rockler.com/cross-back-shop-apron)
which has a variety of pockets, a leather one (http://www.rockler.com/long-leather-shop-apron)
which has the benefit of providing more protection and giving you less weight to carry in your wallet,
and finally the turner's apron (http://www.rockler.com/woodturners-leather-apron) which will
make you look like you could be carrying out medical experiments in a secret underground lab.

Walt


I love this web site. That long leather turner one is the exact apron I am looking for I believe. Does anyone have a photo of what the back looks like because I am almost positive I will be ordering one of those.

[keith micinski]

Crap, reading the description again it says it has criss cross straps which I'm not crazy about.

[keith micinski]

keith, several years ago I had the same thought as you, for the same reason, so I bought two different styles of aprons to decide which one I liked. Well, I'm an old dog and I apparently can't learn new tricks. I still set everything down and lose track of where I put it, but I now always know I can find a sharp pencil in the bib pocket of the apron hanging in the closet.

I'm almost positive this same exact thing is going to happen to me :D

[Jeff Heil]

I'm 6-2 and it is plenty long for me.

[Roger Feeley]

I just don't like the neck straps. For some reason the minimal weight around the neck gives me aches.

I got my mom to sew me an apron where we used a pair of wide suspenders instead of the neckstrap. We just cut the front straps short and sewed them to the front of the apron. The elastic back clips attach to the sides where the waist strap would go. That worked great until I found a shop vest.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Keith, my wife got me one of the leather ones from Lie Neilsen, and it's fantastic. I had several canvas ones before that, including the Rockler one, and I found them all to be just OK.

[terry mccammon]

The Rockler turner's apron is a good item except that it is enormous. I am just exactly 6 foot and wear a 17 neck shirt, not a huge guy but not petite either. The apron is a good long length. The cross straps work together and connect at the waist. With the straps adjusted to their minimum length, the waist is still at least ten inches to big. There is a neck closure with velcro to adjust it to your neck (to prevent chips from going down your neck. Again with the neck adjusted to the minimum size, it is at least three inches too big. It hangs open so I sort of pull it to the back so that the front is against my neck. I have no idea who they sized this thing for.

[keith micinski]

Interesting I am about exactly your size so i would probably have some of those same issues. I definitely don't want to feel like I am wearing a tent or have it get snagged on stuff.

[Larry Dunn]

I have completed my shop aprons and now have the cross back straps on. I can certainly understand why Keith does not like cross back straps. It is just plain difficult to get on. To make it a little easier I added a clip to each shoulder strap. If you unclip just one of the shoulder straps, the apron went on without having to navigate the whole business over your head, and then try to get your arms through the holes. All in all; putting it on and taking it off is not a real problem.

I decided to run the waist strap all the way around instead of attaching directly to the corners of the apron too. I don’t know if this helps but I filled the apron up with as much stuff as I could get in the pockets and it did not feel like it was front heavy and wanted to slip down as I expected.

Please excuse the colors here; I am using up stuff I have collected. It took me about 18 hours in total to do all this. Turned out to be more of a project than I expected, but sure beats a neck strap. And as all things woodworking or otherwise; there is no such thing as a do-it-all anything, including shop aprons it seems. So I think I will buy some cheap neck strap aprons when I am doing finishing and throw them when they get real bad.
279248

[keith micinski]

Those look pretty nice.

[Larry Dunn]

Thank you as my sewing is not really the best. I hope someone gleaned some ideas. I sure got a bunch from all the input others and yourself contributed. FYI: I will tidy up the straps soon so they don't dangle in the way.

[keith micinski]

One thing I was thinking about was having the power pockets on the inside of the apron. Even with the pocket covers I could see dust getting in there and I don't Like covered pockets on my pants

[Larry Dunn]

Are you thinking putting a pocket similar to a hooded sweat shirt over the pockets? That might work pretty well. All you would have to do is slide your hands into either side and grab what you want out of the pocket via the slash pocket. I have a apron I could try that on.

[Mike Olson]

This is a very interesting thread. I have the rockler apron with the x straps. I like the apron but the open pockets in the front always annoyed me. nothing like reaching into the pockets to grab something to get shaving bits under my fingernails.

I must say though. I wouldn't do an internal pocket, but a side load pocket on the front at Larry mentioned. I would hate to have something on my hands "paste wax, wet glue, blo" and go to reach into an inside apron pocket and slide my hand across my shirt looking for that pocket.

[keith micinski]

I didn't think about the whole getting something on my shirt part when I was thinking interior pocket. Shows how smart I am. :D

[wayne forsyth]

Highland Hardware

[Keith Hankins]

I remember getting a denim apron with my shopsmith eons ago. Tried it but it did not work for me. Every dang time I bent over for something crap fell everywhere. I did drywall in my college years, and tried using the tool apron (like my dad's who was a carpenter), and I've stuck with it for years. The kids got me a pair of suspenders to add to it to pull some weight off my hips but after a short while dumped the suspenders. I keep it hanging on my TS t-fence and its the first thing I throw on when I walk in the shop. It has my measures squares and pencils and knives. Mine has 2 multi pocket sections with a quick connect. Similar to the one below but not that brand. If you get one, leather will last. Mines going on 25 years old and I've beat the heck out of it.

http://www.casa.com/p/bucket-boss-88427-u-s-leather-carpenters-apron-575573?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc_C&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=GoogleAW

[James White]

I am pleased with this one. http://www.discountsafetygear.com/bucket-boss-apron-super-bib.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=21619610058&utm_content=pla&gclid=CLzAkKi59LsCFY47MgodYDEAzQ Other than it catching saw dust. But it does have the cross straps and a quick release buckle so that it is easy to get on. Although I got it from Rockler and I am not sure if they still carry it.

James

[Kevin Nathanson]

Just to add one that no-one has shown yet:

http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2454&idcategory=0

I had the Duluth—I will by NO other jeans!—but didn't like the neck strap, and my Starrett 6" double square corners tore the pockets.
The Fastcap is starting to tear too, but it doesn't fray. (I guess I need a ruler with duller corners!)

K