23" miter joint help

[David Wadstrup]

Hello,

Until now, I've been a hobbyist woodworker that uses hand tools almost exclusively(my drill press and cordless drill are pretty much the only power tools I use.) This choice has as much to do with an appreciation of the slower, more meditative woodworking practice that my hand tools allow, as it does with the location of my "shop" -- the living room of my 1 bedroom apartment in Brooklyn. The dust and noise that come with powered tools is just not something my neighbors or wife would tolerate.

I'm embarking a project, however, that might not be possible with hand tools. Specifically, a mid-century modern type dresser. It will look very much like the one in the photo below, and will be done in 5/4 walnut. Anyways, I'd really like to construct the case with mitered joints. This is something that would be incredibly difficult with hand tools. Getting a 23" mitered joint so perfect, that no gaps would show, I'm beginning to realize, is light years beyond my skill level. I also worry about the the strength of the joint. I'd need to reinforce it with some kind of hardware or glue block.

What I've decided might be the best approach would be to purchase a Festool TS75. Have any of you done large scale mitered joints with such a tool? Or does anyone have advice as to what method or tool might be better?

Regarding the strength of the joint... While I'd be happy to use a glue block as reinforcement, I really love to have a cleaner overall structure. To this end, I was thinking the Domino joiner might be useful. I've never used a tool like this, so have no ideas what to expect. Is it difficult to use and get right? More importantly, would dominoes add enough strength and rigidity to a case this size without the need for additional structural support?

I know this is a lot of questions. Thanks for reading through all of them, and for your help.

Best,

David

PS I know spending this kind of money for such a small project might sound ridiculous and wasteful. But considering that this style of furniture is what I like most, and that if successful, I'd likely build a second smaller dresser and a couple of bedside tables and who knows what else with the same joint, I think in the long run I'd get a lifetime of use out of it. That and that I'm expecting a bit of a refund from my tax return that will soon be burning a whole in my pocket.


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[Kevin Guarnotta]

Not sure about using the tracksaw to get tight miter joints - I've got the makita version, and it is pretty accurate, but I haven't tried to do a miter joint with it yet. As for the domino joiner, I'd think a biscuit joiner would be fine.

[Mark Bolton]

What about a lock miter set for a router and a good straight edge? Seems like it may be a cheap option and deals well with increased glue surface, registration, and tight joints.

[Brad Pickens]

I've done a 24" miter with my track saw and domino for a plywood cabinet in the field--saving grace was that I just had two, instead of four, miters to get right. It is possible, but you have to be highly accurate with your layout (don't measure and expect to get it right. I used story sticks to precisely locate the track and double checked everything a few times before making my cuts) since any deviation will be magnified immensely. Make sure that you have your festool dialed in for a perfect 45--44 on every angle will leave you 4 degrees off all around which is huge. Cutting 45 degree angles with my track saw is not my favorite thing to do though--it is less straightforward to locate the cut line and what you'll waste in the kerf. The festool tilts to the right so the cut is actually under the rail--that means that you have to have support for the guide rail past your cut line, so keep your boards long by an extra six to eight inches on each end and make sure that it is well supported. [Ugh. Excuse me--the last job I did like this was a 45 that only had to go halfway through the board and I had to cut from the bottom of the workpiece so it was awkward and is stuck in my head. Just cut from the top of the workpiece and you can ignore that last bit. Sorry!] If you can rent time from a local shop or woodworking co-op to use their cabinet saw, which is what I typically use for that type of cut if I'm in my shop, you'll be happier and making a lower stress, more easily repeatable cut. Also, using dominoes for a mitered joint is possible but takes a bit more work to locate the dominoes so the cutter doesn't go through the back of the board and it takes more persuasion and ingenuity to get everything together and clamped. You'll do well to use glue blocks on the face side of your boards at the joint so you have a 90 degree surface to put your clamps on to pull it tight--use hide glue or something that will release easily so you can get them off after the glue up. A 23" miter with dominoes should be plenty strong without the need for glue blocks on the inside--your additional strength is found in the back of the piece and in the frame that you build on the inside for drawers/doors/etc.
For both the cut and the dominoes get some scrap to practice on before you attempt it on your actual piece. Make a few regular 90 degree cuts with both tools before you move on to the more complicated miter to get a sense of how they should feel and then practice making a small box with them to get a sense of how it works together. I wouldn't expect to just knock out four perfect joints on my first go round.
There are also some cheats for long mitered joints like that since any method of making them has the potential for gaps. Chances are you'll have to hit it with a jointer to clean up any cut you make. Anyway, since you don't want a sharp edge there, you're probably going to give the edge some kind of treatment to break the edge. Could be as simple as running a screwdriver shank over the joint which will force the wood together at minor gaps or using a block plane to break the edge slightly--either way that's the time to get some glue and sawdust or a bit of veneer in there for a big gap. Do it well and any repair will disappear once you finish the piece. The slight breaking of the edge will help to make the joint not as fragile as if it was left with a sharp 90.
For simple alignment, the biscuit joiner would work, but the domino is far, far more versatile and if you're in a situation where your shop space is limited the domino will be an incredibly useful tool. You might consider the bigger domino as it is more useful for furniture size joints--check its smallest capacity to make sure that it would do what you need to do for this project, if you go that route. Same with the track saw--get the bigger one and you can use it on thick hardwoods and it won't bog down. The little one is best for plywood and 4/4 stuff. The track saw is useful to edge joint long boards--I've used it on 10/4 hard maple. you won't run out of ways to use either tool once you have them.
Saw your post on this in the neanderthal section. My experience with web clamps is to stay away from them for this type of application. It is just too wide a surface and too big a piece--you will have trouble pulling the joint together on something this big. Go with the clamping cauls that someone drew. I would consider just doing one long caul rather than a bunch of individual ones like he showed in the drawing--easier to make and apply and you can get a clamp anywhere along the joint if necessary.

[Mike Cutler]

David

The TS-75 can do it, but you'll need to clamp it when cutting.
You may want to consider the TS 55. It's cost is not as high as the TS 75, It will do 5/4, the blade it comes OEM with is probably a better suited blade for what you are attempting.
That being said though. I think that a router with a 45 degree bit, on a track rail system might get you there too. You can go Festool, EZ, DeWalt, or any other track system that has router attachment for it.

And no, it's not a lot of money for such a small project!!
This is your project, for your use, in your house, and may someday be passed on to a family member. To commission someone with the requisite skills to build it "your way" would cost you more than the materials, A Festool TS 55, with an OF 2200 router, the guide rail adapter and the router bit. If you have the skill set, the tools will pay for themselves.

[Andrew Hughes]

Looks like some thing george nakashima would build or his style.I don't think it's would be hard to make those long miters.Just test test test till you get good a good fit.Use popler or something cheap.

[Kevin Bourque]

I love the look of that dresser.

If I understand you correctly the top and sides will be mitered. My concern is that if you do it correctly it will leave a very sharp edge. Easing the edge to soften it will defeat the reasoning behind the tight miter.

[Brad Pickens]

Festool router option--OF 2200 with the MFS template set with 45 router bit might be easier and more precise than the track saw. It depends on what you would use more. the MFS template and router setup has tons of uses once you get into the system.

[Brad Pickens]

You're just breaking the edge in this application--the softening is basically imperceptible, but necessary to protect the user from getting cut on a hard edge and to give the edge just a bit of protection. Breaking the edge also give you a chance to fix any small gaps that should happen to crop up.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

What is the advantage to the Domino vs a regular biscuit joiner? I have not been able to understand the advantage - except for larger/thicker stock.

[Brad Pickens]

They do two different things. The domino is more of a structural joint, it creates a mortise for a floating tenon--you can make doors and chairs with the big one; whereas the biscuit joiner is more of an aid to alignment, it strengthens the joint but has less strength than the domino. I find that the domino lets me do either alignment or structural jobs, and most of my work is furniture/structural stuff. If I spent all day doing nothing but face frames the biscuit joiner would be my go to since biscuits are cheaper and I don't need as much strength there. The domino is a bit more versatile--the smaller one has some little floating tenons that are suitable for boxes and the like and it is more than enough for basic casework.

[Michael W. Clark]

I'm going to throw this out there as a different approach. What about a different type of joinery that gives the same asthetics? In other words, maybe only miter the outer 1/4" of material for the case and the front 3/8" of the cabinet? This smaller edge of material would be much easier to get "perfect" instead of the entire face having to align. The rest of the joint could be a different type of joint for strength? Seems like I've seen mitered dovetails or box joints done this way where the dovetails or box joints were hidden? It would probably be more time consuming but may be more suited to the tools, space, and work practices you are familiar with. Not trying to discuourage the purchase of power tools, I'm all for that, but just trying to give a different perspective.

Mike

[Leo Graywacz]

I was making a half octagon window seat for a client and needed to make large perfect fitting miters. These were 22 1/2 degrees, not 45. They were about 23 inches long. It worked pretty good for the rough in. After I made the pcs at the house I took them back to the shop to assemble them together using glue, biscuits and pocket screws. I also added a solid wood nosing on the front and put a couple of coats of lacquer on it.

Here is the shot of the pcs on the window seat frame. They are just pushed together with no fasteners at all.

http://fototime.com/1F645C205F13E29/orig.jpg

Final project
http://fototime.com/CA6FAB21550D94A/orig.jpg

http://fototime.com/7C66C8A43CD53E7/orig.jpg

http://fototime.com/3A1FB6BD262D230/orig.jpg

[Ole Anderson]

What about a lock miter set for a router and a good straight edge? Seems like it may be a cheap option and deals well with increased glue surface, registration, and tight joints.

Lock miters are very strong and would be a possibility, but I would not recommend it with a router and a straight edge, they are difficult enough with a properly set up router table. One cut must be done with the wood on edge, not flat and that would take a substantial jig.

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's how I've done it a couple of times -- that is, make a long miter joint in solid lumber, reinforced with lots of full-blind loose tenons. At first glance, it looks over-complicated, but it is quite easy to do. The point about the loose tenons is that they give lots of facegrain-to-facegrain glue surface, so the joint is really strong.



There's two posts in the middle of a longer thread. The first one shows the theory, and the second shows the result in a piece of furniture.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21328-Blind-finger-joint&p=190074#post190074

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21328-Blind-finger-joint&p=195538#post195538

[Randall Houghton]

Hi David
I'm going to differ with most opinions given so far and suggest that since you have hand tool experience that you use the secret mitered dovetail to joint your case members. This is a joint used by custom furniture makers and is not as difficult as it first appears if you follow the proper sequence when cutting the joint. If you are not familiar with it check out David Charlesworth's Furniture Making Techniques for an excellent explanation of this joint. It has the strength of a dovetail with the appearance of a miter and will step up your hand tool skills.

I will also point out that I have enjoyed the use of Festool equipment for the past fifteen years and it is possible to cut a 23" miter joint with one. I will also point out that you not get as good a fit with a power saw as you will using hand tools. A tenth of a millimeter variation in straightness when cutting this joint is enough to cause an open spot in the edge of the miter joint. Most likely the cut will have to be cleaned up with a plane to achieve a good fit. A miter this size is strongest when assembled using a spline. Don't get me wrong, I love my track saw(it's a 65 and is was replaced by the 75) because it has allowed me to do things at jobs sites others could not and paid for itself several hundred times over in the past fifteen years.

So there you have it just my 2 cents worth. Good luck with your project.
Regards
Randy

[Mark Bolton]

Lock miters are very strong and would be a possibility, but I would not recommend it with a router and a straight edge, they are difficult enough with a properly set up router table. One cut must be done with the wood on edge, not flat and that would take a substantial jig.

For sure. We run them on the shaper but have run them several times in the field with a straight edge. Not ideal but on a budget it works. The suggestion of a 45 degree bevel bit is a good one as well and the old tape and fold.

[Marco Cabrera]

Hi David,

I've been wanting to put in my experience on this thread.... took me a little while to get registered as this is my first post.

Last year I built a bedside table in the style you are planning to build the dresser in. I went the opposite way because I started small and am now in the process of building the matching dresser. Let me first add a disclaimer, I am an amateur woodworker with few projects under my belt. I don't want to undermine any of the advice the pros on here are giving you, but I had some bit of success with my bedside table.

I built it 21" deep by 22"H 20"W. 21" depth is for the blum tandems with blumotion. (blue?) The corners are mitered and it's been a year now with absolutely no movement and the piece is so solid I can sit on it and it doesn't even move. I'm a 200lb guy.

Details on how I built mine are as follows:
Used some good quality plywood as a center brace which also serves as a mounting point for the slides. To hide the edge of the plywood in the front I glued a piece of thin cut wood from one of the rips I made when building the panels. The crossbrace doesn't show anyway because the drawer face drops even level with it. For the mitered corners, I used a miter crosscut sled I built out of MDF and a couple of miter bars. I understand that this is a different technique than you will be using. Then I picked up a tip from another forum to lightly brush a thin layer of wood glue on the mitered edges and let it dry. Then go ahead and put the regular glue amount on and put the panels together. I didn't glue mine all at once. I test fitted it all together but glued the cross beam in first. Then I glued the side panels using band clamps and some bar clamps to press any other edges together.

I'm hoping that I won't have any problems, but so far so good. No splitting of the mitered joints and it seems to be holding together just fine. Hope this helps with your project.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I miter cut two 24" pieces of 3/4" plywood with my Festool TS55EQ @ a 45* angle then glued them together using a cheap Rockler 3/8" dowel jig - just to see if I could.

No problem. Other than a grain mis-match, the joint was perfect.

I set up the cuts using a Starrett combination square and a digital protractor which probably helped quite a bit.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

Hey Marco,
I'm having trouble following what you are describing, can you post some photos?
also Why do you put a thin layer of glue on miter joint first?

[Jeff Duncan]

OK I'm going to throw this out there just as food for thought. A lot of furniture of this type would be built differently to avoid wood movement problems on such large slabs. Most furniture of this style I've seen is veneered, which is also much easier to build once you learn how to veneer. So in essence instead of trying to run long miters in solid wood and layout all sorts of fun joinery for strength, one simply builds the box out of good plywood or other stable base material without using long miters. Then you veneer the unit with walnut or whichever wood you prefer. Over time you have a more stable project that looks every bit as good, if not better, than one made out of solid wood;)

good luck,
jeffD

[John TenEyck]

OK I'm going to throw this out there just as food for thought. A lot of furniture of this type would be built differently to avoid wood movement problems on such large slabs. Most furniture of this style I've seen is veneered, which is also much easier to build once you learn how to veneer. So in essence instead of trying to run long miters in solid wood and layout all sorts of fun joinery for strength, one simply builds the box out of good plywood or other stable base material without using long miters. Then you veneer the unit with walnut or whichever wood you prefer. Over time you have a more stable project that looks every bit as good, if not better, than one made out of solid wood;)


good luck,
jeffD

Exactly. Wide slabs of wood do not stay flat very long. The earlier recommendation to use the mitered dovetail (or whatever it was called) effectively deals with this problem; however, you can eliminate the issue entirely by building a box and then veneering it. With this approach, the OP probably won't even need any new tools. With veneer you will end up with an easier build that likely will look better, a more stable construction, and probably do it at lower cost.

John

[Marco Cabrera]

Hey Marco,
I'm having trouble following what you are describing, can you post some photos?
also Why do you put a thin layer of glue on miter joint first?

Sure, if I can figure out how to post a picture I'll show you what I mean. 253821253822253823

[Marco Cabrera]

The thin layer of glue was just something that made sense to me at the time I read it. End grain sucks up moisture/glue, so why not seal it off a little and then apply another coat on top of it? I'm really not sure if would have made a difference. I'm into the modern/contemporary style furniture and I'm no pro. Made something for myself and the wife and it works fine.

Basically, I was just trying to say that a miter joint of 23" should work. Just not so sure how long it will last if the wood is really going to shift so much.