Need a good square... Not Starrett.

[Jared Walters]

I know Starrett makes amazing squares, but I kinda want something cheaper. Does anyone know any other good ones?

[Charles McKinley]

Plastic drafting squares can be had in many sizes are accurate and cost effective.

[Gary Hodgin]

I've used engineer's squares in 2", 6", and 12" for several years. Here's a link to Lee-Valley's. They don't carry the 12". LV also has a Veritas line of precision squares that I've never used but my guess is that they are very accurate.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32601&cat=1,42936,42941

[John Coloccia]

I use Groz squares in my shop. They're reasonably priced and dead nuts accurate.

[Lloyd Robins]

PEC makes good squares. I have purchased some blems from Harry J. Epstein. They are hugely reduced in price and the blems don't interfere with their measuring ability. Their service is great and their web site has some really cool features. I don't know if I can give their URL, but you can Google them and type in PEC in search once on their site. It is worth the look. No, I am not affiliated in any way other than just a customer. Good luck.

[jim hollenback]

I've found the squares made by Empire and sold by the borg to be pretty good. They check out fine against my Groz squares. I don't feel bad if I drop them. Yeah, they are cheap.

<slipping on nomex suit and exiting stage left>

[Mark Kornell]

I also use an Empire 6" as my primary square. Dead accurate out of the package. No guarantee yours would be, but it is pretty easy to make a combo square, regardless of brand, truly square. Simply take a small file to the tab(s) that the ruler rests on inside the slot of the square's body.

The caveat is that the individual parts must be straight.

[Curt Harms]

I've found the squares made by Empire and sold by the borg to be pretty good. They check out fine against my Groz squares. I don't feel bad if I drop them. Yeah, they are cheap.

<slipping on nomex suit and exiting stage left>

Nope, no flames from me. The heads are cast zinc or similar rather than cast iron but IMO they're hard to beat in the bang-for-the-buck discussion. AND, they're most likely made in Mukwanago, WI. not China. Empire claims 80% of their products are made in the U.S. I've bought a few Empire products - speed square, dry wall square, 12" level, framing square, and 16" combination square. The 16" combination square was the only one with an issue. 90o was dead nuts, 45o was not. A few minutes with sandpaper on a glass plate fixed that. I also find the scales pretty easy to read and the lines are scribed, not just printed. The gray base finish on the scale seems pretty soft though; it'll smudge when sliding the head if I don't push in a little on the nut to release spring pressure when moving the head. This doesn't affect readability, the smudging isn't on the lines or numbers but it looks tacky. Still, for $13 or so it's well worth the $.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Empire makes a good product. And it's nice to support a Wisconsin company. For most purposes their combo squares are perfect.
One of these days, I will remember the brand name of the machinist's squares I use. It's a small company, and I can't for the life of me ever remember. It's hard to beat $18 for a 6" square with .0006" tolerance!!! (I bought them before I started my anti-MIC quest, so it is possible they are MIC)
Another option is to go the antique route. I have several old B&S and Starrett pieces that are as good as the day they were made. Stanley made some good squares back in the day too.

[Adam Petersen]

I too use the Empire Pro 6", but I also use a PEC 6" and I like them both. The PEC is definitely a nice one and at a good price. I'd recommend looking into them.

[george wilson]

No combination square is as accurate as a fixed blade square,though I know many here use them. If they ARE accurate,sliding the blade soon introduces wear. I am a machinist,too,as well as wood worker,and am talking tolerances that are beyond what most woodworkers might consider necessary. My ultimate squares(for checking my other squares) are granite. I have 3,and a granite straight edge as well as 3 cast iron scraped camel back straight edges(the type used for scraping machine beds true),and a Tumico flat 4' straight edge. Fortunately,I have found good Starrett,and ( not messed up) old Brown and Sharpe squares from 2" to 2 foot beams. I value them highly. I have good Starrett combination squares like new,with hardened heads,but I guarantee they are not as accurate as a Starrett our B&S fixed blade square.

I bought a set of 3 or 4 imported solid steel squares from MSC,in a blow molded case for the shop at work,and they were quite accurate. Can't recall the cost,but they were reasonable compared to Starrett. They weren't Chinese. These days,B&S stuff is made who knows where. Another good old USA co. bought out. I think some of their stuff is made in France,at least not China.

I would take an inexpensive English made steel square and adjust it by whacking it (sounds terrible,I know,but SKILLED whacking!) until it mated up to one of my GOOD squares. Since you can see .0001" of light (a tenth),they can be gotten pretty close if you know what you are doing. I'd mark on the blade if the square had been accurized.

[David Keller NC]

Jared - You don't say if you're referring to needing a square or a combination square. In my shop, I use engineer's squares to set up machinery, a small 3" "Total Square" from Woodjoy tools for checking woodwork joints and rules/tape measures for general wood measurement. This is despite owning a Starret 12" combination square, which sees little use. The reason is as George notes - no combination square is as accurate as a fixed-blade engineer's square, and while one doesn't need such accuracy for the wood itself, it's very helpful to have highly accurate squares for machine set-up.

The engineer's squares I have are the "Guaranteed Square" and the "Guaranteed 45 Degree" squares from Incra. They aren't really inexpensive, but they're not ridiculous either. The reason that I like them is that they are very sturdily built. While no reference square should ever take an unplanned trip to the concrete floor, these will take an occasional accidental hard knock and still remain true:

http://www.amazon.com/Incra-GSQR7-Guaranteed-Square-Precision/dp/B0000639X2/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_y

The small square I use for checking woodwork joints:

http://www.woodjoytools.com/page9/page9.html

Keep in mind that if properly cared for, you will never have to replace these tools - they are a lifetime purchase. That realization takes some of the sting out of the intial purchase price.

[John Bailey]

I've a set of 4 machinist's squares, 2"-3"-4"-6", from Iturra Design. Because they are small, I'm grabbing them constantly. At $23 for the set, they were a real bargain.

John

[Sam Murdoch]

I've been very happy with squares from Woodpecker http://www.woodpeck.com/measuringhome.html

[Jim Koepke]

There are too many kinds of squares to suggest one that meets your needs and desires.

Most of the time one of my try squares is used. For bigger things my carpenter's square is used.

My combination squares are seldom used. Mostly just for use to mark a line along the length of a piece a set distance from an edge. Most of the time a Stanley odd jobs is used for this kind of work.

At times my desire has turned to one of these, http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=44279&cat=1,42936

Not having a real need, my money has not yet left me for those greener pastures in Canada.

jtk

[Matt Meiser]

Check out the imports at a place like MSC.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Grizzly's great for stuff like that.

[glenn bradley]

+1 on PEC. Very well made. Smooth action. Fit and finish on my new PEC's are at least as nice if not nicer than my new Starrett (I had to send the first Starrett back due to defect).

[Adam Petersen]

One more quick point on the PEC's, they are made in the USA.

I agree the engineer square is probably more accurate and going to stay that way, but for the way I use it, I really like having a sliding rule in my square. Especially the double square feature. I use it much more often then my Empire Pro now. I only grab for the empire if I have to mark out a 45.

[Sean Hughto]

I really like the Incra Guaranteed Squares. I dunno if their cheap enough for what you're hoping to spend?

[Stanley Covington]

Mitsutoyo makes a great square. Beware anything made in India.

[Mark Dorman]

I really like the Incra Guaranteed Squares. I dunno if their cheap enough for what you're hoping to spend?
That's what I have and I love it. Solid tool.

[Casey Gooding]

A used Starret from the 'bay. I've gotten several there and couldn't be happier. I've probably gotten 3 for what one costs new.

[ian maybury]

Worked my way through a 3 piece combo square set purchase last year and ran into all sorts of quality problems. Ruled out any of the cheap stuff, but hoped to get a mid range item for reasonable money.

Bought a nice looking Mitu which ticked all the boxes and was well priced (having the height of regard from years gone by for their stuff), but had to return it due to problems with the hardening (it broke due to brittleness) and tolerance of the rule retaining stud and the bore it fits in. Problems with the fit of the protractor/angle measurement ring too. They kindly replaced it without question, but this time the stud was too soft and bent when tightened. Plus the machining of the rule slot was poor - the bottom was very rough. Then tried a Swiss, with similar results - roughly machined, loose fit around the stud and not nice to use.

Eventually bit the bullet and paid out for a Starr with a cast head and having used it for around 6 months love it. Excellent fits, feels great in the hand, accurate, nice smooth action. Bough a small 4in sliding T and it was great too.

I have various Incra precision squares and they have been unfailingly good - my only slight concern relates to how the anodised aluminium may last long term. Beautifully made.

I didn't try a PEC (didn't know about them), they seem to be getting good reports. In the general sense I'm pretty wary of recent mag reviews because they don't seem to be bringing out what i found. (which may of course have been down to bad luck on my part)

It all (between return shipping to the UK and the like - and despite no quibble replacement by the supplier) the whole exercise cost me around three months and double the cost of what I had originally planned to spend. Talking to the various sales people it seems that there's a really aggressive price war going on in that market, and that some of the established name brands are really feeling the pinch - moving their manufacturing around in an attempt to source more cheaply, and as result running into some quality problems. Which may of course not continue.

My thought on this stuff is ideally buy only specific examples that you have physically inspected. If as in my own case distance prevents this, then maybe it makes sense to pay up for a high end model - one that's getting good reviews from users...

ian

[Jared Walters]

Actually, forget the new square. I was at an antique mall today and picked up an old Starrett for a pretty good price. It seems very square. However, it's dirty and doesn't slide smoothly. How should I clean it without damaging it? Here is a picture:

http://i.imgur.com/TzF6hNU.jpg

Also this little thing is held inside the square. What is it for? Marking stuff?

http://i.imgur.com/lrgcpwC.jpg

[David Keller NC]

What you've pictured is a scribe (for marking lines, originally intended for metal). For cleanup, use mild hand did washing detergent and H2O. Don't use de-rusting agents on it; they might remove the graduation blacking

[Derrell W Sloan]

If you're looking for an adjustable square and you have a Sears near by check out the Craftsman adjustable squares. I just picked up a 7 in. and it is nice. It was less than $8 and the larger 16 was about $15. Best of all they are made in the USA and guaranteed for life.

[daniel lane]

As a (secondary) chemist, a good rule of thumb that may be applicable here is "like dissolves like." If it's dirty from grease/etc., use WD40 or another solvent to soak and clean it up. If it's dirt or water-based grime (spilled soda, etc.), use soap and water. I suggest an old (soft) toothbrush, they are great for this kind of clean up.


daniel

[Roy Lindberry]

I was in the same boat as you a few months back, so I followed Bob's lead and just made my own. They work great, and can easily be done in a day using only hand tools.

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2011/02/episode-33/

[phil harold]

You need a Hardened Steel Square Head in your adjustable square if you want it to stay accurate

I have Tumico, and Starrett

[Rob Lee]

I know Starrett makes amazing squares, but I kinda want something cheaper. Does anyone know any other good ones?

Hi Jared,

I use a couple of these in my shop, as they're much lighter than the machinist's squares of the same size. They're made in Japan, and are great value....

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32599&cat=1,42936

Another square I use is the Nobex folding square (available from many sources).

I'd recommend a good square for machine set-up (and don't use it for anything else), and a utility square like one of the above for shop work/layout ....

Cheers -

Rob

[Andrae Covington]

I agree with everyone's suggestions.:) I have the 12" aluminum / steel square that Rob suggested; a good value. I also have several steel machinist's squares that I picked up as a lot on ebay at a ludicrous bargain... due to surface rust nobody wanted to bid on them. Most of them are branded Woodriver, one was made in the UK. For combination squares I have a 6" Starrett that I purchased new, and an antique 24" Goodell-Pratt. The 24" wasn't cheap, but far less than a new one in that size. All of them are square enough for the work I do.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you're looking for an adjustable square and you have a Sears near by check out the Craftsman adjustable squares. I just picked up a 7 in. and it is nice. It was less than $8 and the larger 16 was about $15. Best of all they are made in the USA and guaranteed for life.

I was very happy with that square for the price. It appears to be made by SPI. The quality seemed much higher than other squares in the price range, and a quick and dirty test showed all the ones on the rack showed them all to be square, unlike some of the brands I've seen at Home Depot, etc, where some were visibly out-of-square. I got that same 7" square on a whim, had it for maybe a year, and it still seems damn accurate, at least enough for woodwork. The tabs that you can file to fix it being square are a little small, and all in all I don't expect a lifetime tool like a Starrett, but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it getting lost or dropped on a hard surface, either.

For most work, however, I still reach for smaller fixed squares. I have a little square that Klaus sent me that is just great. It lives in the most convenient place in my tool cabinet on a little magnetic holder he made, and gets used constantly. I'm thinking about putting another little magnet holder on the side of my bench to keep it closer at hand.

For larger panel work I use a vintage framing square I got as part of a deal on a toolbox I bought for the several saws inside. One of these days I'll bang out a wooden square for the heck of it, I have no idea if I'll like it or not.

I once passed on an old fixed engineers square that was huge - maybe 2 feet long. (I actually don't remember now, I think it might have only been 16-18 inches and like a fish story it gets longer each retelling, or maybe it was bigger) The thing weighed a ton so I wasn't going to add it to my full bicycle. It was B&S or Starrett or one of the other old Mass. makers. I have no idea what I would have done with it, but I still kind of wish I had gotten it.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I finally tracked down the name brand of the solid squares I use. They're SteeleX. They are pretty good quality, and decent value. I wanted to add another 4" to my tool box, so I went and bought one today (hence remembering the name). The 4" was $12 and the 6" was $15.
If you don't mind a tool made in India, I recommend them.

[george wilson]

SPI was bought out by Manhattan Supply. The name no longer means anything. Their tools
can come from anywhere,especially China. Steelex is Chinese,too. However,I think the set of squares I bought from MSC were SPI,and seem to be of good accuracy. Buying anything Asian is always a gamble,though.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, I was wondering what was going on with SPI - there stuff seems to run the gamut from dirt cheap and questionable to decent, and it's available everywhere from the bargain basement shops half a step above Herbor Freight to reputable places. The Craftsman combo squares made by SPI are the only things of theirs of recent manufacture I've experience with. Made in the states, and for a combo square at the price it is, it's nice. Of course, being Craftsman, no telling how long until they change suppliers (or have SPI hit a different price point) and it's junky again - I remember looking at a Craftsman adjustable square a few years back when someone else was making them and they weren't very nice at all.

[Mark Baldwin III]

SPI was bought out by Manhattan Supply. The name no longer means anything. Their tools
can come from anywhere,especially China. Steelex is Chinese,too. However,I think the set of squares I bought from MSC were SPI,and seem to be of good accuracy. Buying anything Asian is always a gamble,though.
I can't speak to any other SteeleX tools, but the squares that I have are from India. If they were MIC I wouldn't have bought them (not to start that topic all over again). Tools made in India may not always be the best, the ones I have looked at are typically of a decent quality. That is based on an observation of only a limited number of tools, though.

[Mitch Barker]

Mine is a Pinnacle which I bought at woodcraft for about $30. The rule is nicely ground on all edges and the markings are very legible.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, the Groz I recommended are made in India and they're dead nuts accurate...all 4 of them. That's the only reason I recommend them.

[Trevor Walsh]

My Empire combination square was not square, I've liked LV engineer's squares, I have the 2" for dovetail joint layout.

What kind of square are you looking at, fixed blade engineers, a double square, combination? What size? I'll agree that a fully hardened Starrett 18" compination square is pricy, but the engineers squares or a Starrett 4" double square is $74 on amazon. Buy them once, buy quality and don't ever drop it or put it in a situation where you are likely to drop it.

Over the rest of your life that investment pays out to what 203 dollars a year for accurate layout, this bang-for-buck debate on the most basic and essential tools always gets me.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I have a Pinnacle that I really like.