Melamine Particle Board Shelving

[Jack Pinkham]

Just noticed that the maple melamine particle board shelving installed in our new cabinets by our contractor are not sealed on the rear edge. In other words, the particle board is showing. Could this lead to warping? Is this considered standard practice for custom cabinets?

Thanks!

[Rick McQuay]

If exposed to high levels of moisture it could swell but particle board doesn't warp in the same sense as solid wood, at least I've never seen it happen. It can swell and bow though.

[Jeff Monson]

Just make sure your dishes are fully dry before you put them away, or you will find out how exposed particle board behaves. Maple ply with a wood face would have been a much better option.

[johnny means]

Your shelves will be fine. They won't warp, but will sag over time. When this happens, flip them over. Don't submerse them and you MCP shelves will last a lifetime.

[Mike Heidrick]

......................................

[Matt Meiser]

Other than sagging a little due to being 5/8, the particle board shelves in our old cabinets didn't really have any issues after 20 years and they were only finished on the front edge.

[Jack Pinkham]

Thanks for all the responses. Glad to know that the shelves are OK and don't need to be added to the long punch list.

[Richard Coers]

Melamine and custom cabinets are never in the same sentence when I talk about custom cabinets. A 30" shelf is going to sag in a month. Be prepared to flip them over every month. How many years is this job taking off your life Jack? You're really going through the wringer on this one.

[johnny means]

Melamine and custom cabinets are never in the same sentence when I talk about custom cabinets.

Why not?:rolleyes:

[Jeff Duncan]

Melamine and custom cabinets are never in the same sentence when I talk about custom cabinets.


FWIW all those super expensive totally tricked out custom closet systems are....yup, you guessed it.....melamine! Melamine is used in just about every high end custom shop out there. Many of the high end custom kitchens use melamine also, you can't escape it!

To the OP's question, yeah that's fairly normal. You don't see too many places that band the entire shelf. Some guys like myself will use plywood for the shelves, but it's more expensive so not really as common. I can't see a situation where someone would put something wet enough in a cabinet that it would soak the shelf edges, and if they did that's going to be considered abuse. So that particular item is not something you can get on him for. Which is probably good as your list must be pretty long by now:eek:

good luck,
JeffD

[Richard Coers]

FWIW all those super expensive totally tricked out custom closet systems are....yup, you guessed it.....melamine! Melamine is used in just about every high end custom shop out there. Many of the high end custom kitchens use melamine also, you can't escape it!

To the OP's question, yeah that's fairly normal. You don't see too many places that band the entire shelf. Some guys like myself will use plywood for the shelves, but it's more expensive so not really as common. I can't see a situation where someone would put something wet enough in a cabinet that it would soak the shelf edges, and if they did that's going to be considered abuse. So that particular item is not something you can get on him for. Which is probably good as your list must be pretty long by now:eek:

good luck,
JeffD

Wait a minute Jeff, you said in the first paragraph that all the high end custom shops use it, all the epensive totally tricked out use it, and you can't escape it. Then paragraph two says you use plywood. Huh?

[Jeff Monson]

Wait a minute Jeff, you said in the first paragraph that all the high end custom shops use it, all the epensive totally tricked out use it, and you can't escape it. Then paragraph two says you use plywood. Huh?

He didn't say HE used it, and I gather he does not. I prefer plywood in my cabinets, just my preference. If you want a nice clean whiter interior in your cabinets, then melamine is your best choice.

The only reason I bring up moisture and melamine is, our last house had cheap built cabinets made from melamine. The face frames must not have been glued well to the carcass as the bottom of the cabinet that we keep glasses in, swelled up like a balloon. Not saying we pour water in them, but our kids put away the dishes and at times, they are not 100% dry on the inside from the dishwasher. Well after doing that for a couple years....the moisture won over the melamine. I'm sure todays melamine is a better product and the glues should keep moisture from reaching it anyways. Just saying I did have an issue with it.

[Jeff Duncan]

Wait a minute Jeff, you said in the first paragraph that all the high end custom shops use it, all the epensive totally tricked out use it, and you can't escape it. Then paragraph two says you use plywood. Huh?

Ahh, well Richard let me elaborate;) First off I wouldn't consider my work in the same scope as the truly high end guys. I'd like to think it's better than average, but it's not quite the top shelf. Maybe if I keep at it for another couple decades I'll get there eventually.:rolleyes:

Secondly I use both plywood and melamine all the time. Plywood for kitchens and small built-ins as I'm not as cost conscious as bigger shops are, and I prefer the durability as well as the lighter weight which does make a difference when you often work alone. I do however use melamine for the closet systems I get from time to time. I don't think there's a better product out there for that application, and to me that's what it's all about. It's just that muscling through a unit of 3/4" melamine does a number on you, and I'm not getting any younger:o In fact the only material I really detest is mdf as it's negatives outweigh almost all positives for me personally, but I digress! Melamine aside of it's weight is actually much easier to build with and contrary to popular myth, a well built melamine product once installed correctly should last every bit as long as one made from plywood. It's the "well built" part that's the catch. If your assembling it in your living room with plastic connectors it's not quite the same thing as something fabricated in a shop. Nor are the cheap outlet store boxes that I think give it a bad name.

Also FWIW there's an array of colors and woodgrains available in melamine today, some of which the average person wouldn't know the difference from veneer. When I do a "higher end" closet system I have a box of samples for my clients to choose from. Not quite as extensive as say matching wood stains to samples, which is not my favorite thing to do anyway, but does allow for quite a variety of different looks. And of course like anything else there's different qualities of melamine just as their are different qualities of plywood or any other product. Both the melamine and plywood I use mostly come from our neighbors to the north and are of good quality.

Anyway that's my long winded thought in a nutshell. Hope it clears up any confusion the first post may have left:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Richard Coers]

I should have mentioned that I was a bit satirical with my post. I hate all man-made board. I know MDF stays flat, but Lord is that dust horrible. Then the idea of using a soft plastic covered particleboard behind select hardwood fronts seems like a cruel trick. The fact that folks use it because it is easy to wipe down. Maybe we're simple folks here, but when was the last time you took out all the dishes and wiped down the shelves in a cabinet.

[Jack Pinkham]

Melamine and custom cabinets are never in the same sentence when I talk about custom cabinets. A 30" shelf is going to sag in a month. Be prepared to flip them over every month. How many years is this job taking off your life Jack? You're really going through the wringer on this one.

Yes, this job has no doubt shortened our lives due to the stress. After 18 weeks with no end in sight, we have put the contractor on notice that we will be filing a complaint with the state construction contractors board.
The dispute resolution process will take at least two months and is non-binding. It will be up to us to pursue
legal action if the contractor ignores the mediator's decision (assuming that the decision is in our favor). I'm not sure that the mediator will come down hard on the contractor, since I've seen some of the criteria which will be used. https://ccbed.ccb.state.or.us/webpdf/ccb/publications/nascla_res_const_standards.pdf
The standard for cabinet doors references the "National Woodwork Manufacturers
Association Standards". This trade group no longer exists, having changed its name to the National Wood Window & Door Association in 1985! Anyway, I've attached some photos of the contractor's fine craftsmanship for your enjoyment.253588253593

I thought that the differing width of the cabinet top molding was required because the ceiling wasn't level. Not so! The ceiling is level, the cabinets are not hung level.

[Jeff Duncan]

I should have mentioned that I was a bit satirical with my post. I hate all man-made board. I know MDF stays flat, but Lord is that dust horrible. Then the idea of using a soft plastic covered particleboard behind select hardwood fronts seems like a cruel trick. The fact that folks use it because it is easy to wipe down. Maybe we're simple folks here, but when was the last time you took out all the dishes and wiped down the shelves in a cabinet.

No problem Richard.....and I don't blame you at all for hating the stuff;) I could be wrong, but I don't think ease of cleaning really enters the equation. Companies that use it like it for the reasons mentioned above....it's flat, cheap, and requires no finishing. Look at it this way, you buy 3/4" pre-finished plywood in bulk and your paying close to $70 a sheet, melamine closer to $30 a sheet. Now add in that it's easier to machine as it stays flat and you don't have any finishing costs...cost wise it's a no brainer! Customers on the other hand like it b/c it's clean and flat and....cheap!

Now if we really break it down what are we comparing....plywood, which is made of layers of wood glued together and coated with a plastic finish. And melamine, smaller bits of wood glued together and coated with a plastic finish. Not all that different when you really break it down to basics:D

Now as for mdf....that stuff really is evil:eek: I hate it and the dust it makes when machining. But again here's the rub.....I use it all the time:( Nothing better for paint grade raised panels IME:)

JeffD

[Jeff Monson]

But again here's the rub.....I use it all the time:( Nothing better for paint grade raised panels IME:)

JeffD

That's good to know Jeff, how do you seal the raw part of the mdf before you paint it? Plus do you paint the entire panel before assembly? I have a built in project that I'm doing right now that is painted. I'd use MDF in a heartbeat knowing that it makes good raised panels.

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff, I spray the panel with primer before assembling the door, just as I would spray a solid wood panel with stain before assembly. To be honest mdf makes a better panel than solid wood, I know the traditionalists may scoff, but mdf is flat and stable which is great for panels as they won't shrink and swell seasonally cracking the paint where the panel meets the stiles and rails.

These doors are solid maple stiles and rails with mdf panles and poplar bolection moldings....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2123.jpg

Inside is a "middle" end(?) shelving unit made entirely of white melamine...
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2125.jpg

I think it's a nice clean look. The master closet in this house is a whole different story and was done with a special order chocolate melamine.

good luck,
JeffD

[Jeff Monson]

Wow Jeff, very nice!! I would not have guessed the panels were MDF. So I'm going to give them a shot. Couple questions, if you dont mind.

I usually use -1/8" on panel length and -1/16" on width on solid raised panels for movement, what do you factor in on mdf as it is not going to move??

The "poplar bolection moldings" you have on the doors, do you have any info on how they are done? And can they be applied to a 3/4" drawer front?

Thanks

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff, I think maybe you posted it backwards? The larger gap on solid wood should be for your panel width, it won't really change size much in height.

The spacing you leave for the panels doesn't matter much. Most of those doors for instance, were in the 30" +/- range so you would be looking at a 20" or so panel. If you look at a wood movement calculator you'll see that for such a wide panel wood movement seasonally could be significant, with mdf.....not so! These panels, as all my mdf panels are, were glued in place. So I usually just leave roughly 1/16" gap all around just to be safe and make it easy to get everything together.

The bolection moldings presented a bit of a challenge as I had not done them prior. I'll try to explain them, I just can't promise I'll do it well? They're simple enough to make the molding itself, you can get something off the shelf and just run a rabbet on the back. As I needed many hundreds of feet for all the doors on this job I had a local shop run it for me. The trick is with the added width of the molding and my current tooling I could not do a full profile on the panel and still have enough tongue left to engage the door stiles/rails. So I figured out a work around. I ran the door stiles and rails with a custom set of knives cutting what was basically an oversize shaker style door with a 3/4" x 3/4" tongue and groove....(these doors are 2-1/4" thick!). After I assembled the doors I took 3/4" x 2" poplar stock and glued it into the grooves that would normally hold the door panel. The actual door panels were 5/8" ultralight mdf sized to fit within the confines of the bolection molding instead of the door frame. I then glued and pinned them in place and finally glued and pinned the bolection molding on top of them.

I don't see why you couldn't try them on a drawer front as long as it had the size to allow them. It's hard enough to get a raised panel on drawers much smaller than say 6" - 7" so adding in, (or subtracting really), for a bolection molding may be tricky there....just depends on the size? And the door thickness doesn't matter either. Here's another shot of the same project with cabinet doors....
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2135.jpg

Not a very good picture, but you see how we kept the overall style of the doors the same between the cabinet and the passage doors.

Hope this helps, feel free to PM me with any other questions, I'm afraid we may be hijacking this thread:confused:

JeffD