Shapton Glasstones -- out of favor?

[Tom Henderson2]

I picked up the handtool habit several years ago; at the time King and Norton were popular.

Then the Shapton Glasstones seemed to get the buzz; lots of very positive posts on user forums like this one as well as online advertising. It seemed like every sharpening jig vendor used glasstones in their demo videos, LN used them at their handtool event sharpening demos, etc.

I lusted for a set but they were priced out of reach.

Then life intervened and I had to shelve the woodworking for a couple of years so I've been off the forums and out of the garage/shop.

Things have calmed down and I'm looking to get back to woodworking, but I am surprised that nowadays, not only are few people raving about glasstones on the forums, but some folks seem to be advocating AGAINST using them.

Some sites that used to sell them no longer list them; for example LN is back to selling Nortons.

Is this all just a change in price/value perception (i.e. buyers thinking they aren't worth the money) or is there some aspect of their performance that folks have come to dislike?

I'm not really on the market for a premium sharpening stone at the moment, but I am curious why the glasstones don't seem to be as popular with woodworkers as they were a couple years ago.

Thanks in advance!

-Tom in SoCal

[David Weaver]

I advocate for the pro stones instead. For two reasons.

1) the pro stones are as cheap or cheaper, except for the 30,000 stone (which is a waste of money in either stone). If you want, you can apply your pro stone to a piece of scrap glass with silicone or epoxy.
2) the pro stones are 15 mm thick as opposed to 5. Shapton added insult to injury by making the 1k glasstone fairly soft. Relatively soft and thin at the same time means a heavy user buys a new 1k stone every couple of years.

There are GOBS of good quality stones in the 1k range, so to mickey mouse around with the 1k and turn them through like that is a waste.

In terms of performance, if you take durability and value out of the equation, they work very well.

The shapton pros might not be all the rage at this point because they've been around for a while, but they are great stones and if bought right are still a very good value in terms of performance, longevity and price. I never found any favor using them on top of their plastic cases, but glued to a heavy wood base or a metal or glass base (can be a scrap of anything you have around, even counter top scrap or whatever) they work great.

[Chris Griggs]

Never used them but the general consensus. Nothing special in terms of modern ceramic..... Very VERY thin... no bang for buck. In less nice terms. Total rip off.

[Russell Sansom]

I have both. I prefer the pros by a long shot. It might seem silly, but the boxes that come with the pros make a huge difference. Huge to me. I dry the stone, put it back into its box and snap the lid. Ready to store away from harm. Speaking generally, after decades of kerosene, india stones, and black Arkansas, the Shaptons were a dream come true. Being uniform in dimension lets them work together peacefully on the sharpening bench.

[Charlie Stanford]

I picked up the handtool habit several years ago; at the time King and Norton were popular.

Then the Shapton Glasstones seemed to get the buzz; lots of very positive posts on user forums like this one as well as online advertising. It seemed like every sharpening jig vendor used glasstones in their demo videos, LN used them at their handtool event sharpening demos, etc.

I lusted for a set but they were priced out of reach.

Then life intervened and I had to shelve the woodworking for a couple of years so I've been off the forums and out of the garage/shop.

Things have calmed down and I'm looking to get back to woodworking, but I am surprised that nowadays, not only are few people raving about glasstones on the forums, but some folks seem to be advocating AGAINST using them.

Some sites that used to sell them no longer list them; for example LN is back to selling Nortons.

Is this all just a change in price/value perception (i.e. buyers thinking they aren't worth the money) or is there some aspect of their performance that folks have come to dislike?

I'm not really on the market for a premium sharpening stone at the moment, but I am curious why the glasstones don't seem to be as popular with woodworkers as they were a couple years ago.

Thanks in advance!

-Tom in SoCal

It would probably be really entertaining to do a search and read all the gushing, oohing and aahing, and superlatives being thrown about. And then the about-face less than a year later.

Aren't Ugg boots out of style now? S'what it all sounds like to me - bunch of little girls.

[David Weaver]

vs. oilstones...Shaptons were a dream come true

I pretty much love every harder stone I can get my hands on (there isn't much true junk in the stone market that we have over here in volume), but unless someone is sharpening a V tool by pushing it into the stone, I agree. Shaptons thoroughly dominate every oilstone I've used for every purpose other than straight razors. Faster, finer, cuts more, costs about the same or less than good oilstones (if bought right).

[John Coloccia]

A few years ago an 8000 glass stone was about $75 and now it's $100. Their prices have gotten ridiculous just for a stupid sharpening stone. At this point, I would feel absolutely silly recommending them when there are other options that get the job done and are FAR cheaper.

[David Weaver]

Their pricing philosphy for such a small amount of abrasive reminds me of these guys:

[Andrew Gibson]

I have had pro stones for a couple years now. I bought the 1k, 5k, and 15k. If I had to do it again I would have not bothered with the 5k. I never use it. I have a dmt course/xcourse that I use to flatten my stones and course work. not cheep but I am very happy with the results i get with the combo... I have never used norton stones, but would not mind trying them, I do like not having to soak my stones, a sprits of water and off I go. its probably about time i glue my pro stones to a base, so I can wear them clean out, I think it will take a good few more years for that tho.

[Tom Henderson2]

Thanks everyone.

The thing I liked most about the glasstone demos I saw were 1) spritz w/water and use -- no soaking and no bucket required. 2) the flattener was spritz-and-go too; no effluent to deal with. I don't have a sink in my garage where I do my woodworking, so I have to trundle buckets of water in from the kitchen and afterwards there is grody effluent that gets trundled out to the street sewer.

But a set of glasstones & flattener is crazy -- $500+. I can trundle a lot of buckets of water for $500.

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Tom in SoCal

[David Weaver]

With the exchange rate where it is, a 1k and 12k shapton pro set from stu is about $120 plus shipping. Any diamond hone you have works fine for flattening. No need for the super expensive and less than durable shapton diamond lapping plate.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello all,

I've filed my taxes, resisted the LV free shipping and am looking to "upgrade" my sharpening system. I currently have a slow speed grinder, Norton 200(useless)/1000 and 4000/8000 combo stones, and use a strop. Works just fine, but the bottleneck is that my shop is in a detached and unheated garage without a sink.

Hence, I'm looking for a system that does not require soaking of stones and that (ideally) I wouldn't have to worry about freezing. Really, its the former that the greater concern because moving stones inside during winter's not a big deal, but not being able to easily sharpen on the bench is. I use O1, A2, and PMV11 steels and am eyeing some Japanese white steel chisels as well. I like my waterstones, so don't feel attracted to either diamond or oil. I'd like to keep the new set up to ~$200

I'm thinking of trying either (both from Stu):

1) the Shapton 1K + 12K + atoma flattening plate as mentioned above by David, or
2) the Sigma Power Combo: 1K (hard or soft?), 6K, 13K + plate + (which?) base

Any thoughts on one over the other? I'm imagining that they're pretty darn close to each other.

Also, I think I read that Stu was backed up/slowed down. Does anyone have news there?

Thanks,
Chris C.

[David Weaver]

If I were in your shoes, figuring that the backs of all of these tools have been flattened already, I would use an ezelap 600 ($35) and a 1 micron loose diamond on cast or mild steel (the diamonds and a properly milled steel plate should be about $50-75 together).

That's it.

The only place where that combination isn't lovely to me is flattening backs of tools that are pretty far out, but for maintenance sharpening things, it's great.

Only caveat - I don't like it on japanese white steel or blue steel, I think they deserve an abrasive less harsh than diamonds. Your current stones would be fine for japanese tools. If you made it a point to use the 8000 without soaking the combo stone, you could easily use it with the ezelap diamond plate.

I like the shaptons a lot, too. Really a lot. I don't know if there is any implication where this scenario would be trouble in a freezing shop:
* spray the stones with water (spritz) 10 different times for different tools over a multi hour work period
* leave the shop and temps go below freezing

That might cause crazing. My shop has never gotten below 40, so I never had to deal with it. As synethic stones go, I sold mine (went a different direction into naturals), but they are still my favorites.

Anyway, the two step diamond process has a lot of merit, it's very little overhead and mess, it cuts *anything* (if you decided to buy some sort of m4 powder steel, diamonds still cut that stuff like it's not hardened), and it leaves a fine edge. It's just slightly harder in some ways to use than a set of smooth feeling stones.

[Cory Waldrop]

Christopher,

Either one of your choices would yield you nice stones. I use the Shapton Pro 1k, 6k, and 15k. I use a DMT plate to keep them flat but have heard great things about the Atoma. I use all the tool steels you mentioned and the Shaptons handle them no problem. The reason I like using a Diamond plate is because I can do some course work on it, and then use the stones once my bevels are finished. I have since been using some sandpaper on a granite block to re-establish the bevels and then quickly hit the 1k and a few seconds on the 6k and 15k on a micro bevel and done. If you work with micro bevels, you could probably skip the 5k or 6k stone. You would not want to sharpen a full bevel from 1k to 15k. That would take forever and be a waste. But a few strokes at a higher angle and your in business.

A lot of people have gone with the special sharpening set from Stu and have been very happy. You basically get the Atoma plate for free. If I remember correctly, they should be soaked though. Don't quote me on that. Either way, give Stu a shout and he will steer you in the right direction.

[Joe Leigh]

Well I don't wear Ugg boots and I'm not about to do an about face, just very happy with my Shapton 1K and 8K glass stones.

I don't use them everyday but from what I can tell from the 3-4 dozen times I have used them that its doubtful I will wear them out in my lifetime. No soaking, just a spritz during use, a couple of swipes with a DMT to keep them flat, and its all good.

Keeps my chisels and plane blades razor sharp. Highly recommended.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks David and Cory. David, I'll read some more about your diamond suggestion, but I'm still adding tools, so it may not be the best overall fit. May be the best for in the shop maintenance though.

Cory, I do indeed sharpen on a hollow grind and then microbevel, primarily freehand. After watching Stu's videos, it sounds like the Sigma Powers do need soaking to work best.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Joe,

I did forget to add the glass stones as a possibility, especially given the (apparent) need to soak the Sigmas.

Thanks!
C

[Daniel Rode]

I'm not sure what's the popular stone fashion this year :)

Based on David's advice, I bought a 15k Pro stone instead of a 16k glass stone. Thicker, cheaper and for me it's been a perfect finishing stone. I mostly use a 1,200 (DMT X-fine), 5,000 (DMT X-X-fine) and then finish on the 15k. I feel like I can get a consistently sharp edge with this setup and I only need to worry about flattening the 15k.

[Christopher Charles]

That is the question, isn't it Dan? It is spring runway season after all...

Thanks,
C

[Anthony Moumar]

I have a set of 1k, 5k and 8k Shapton Pros with a Atoma 400 plate for flattening at home and the Sigma Power 1k, 6k and 13k set at work. I find both work great and that the difference is negiable in real use. If there is any difference between finishing on the 8k Shapton or 13k Sigma I can't tell. Both produce a very sharp edge. I don't soak any of the stones and have never had any problems. I like the cases the Shaptons came in because I don't have room to leave them out at home. I use them on top of the cases on my bench then dry them off and put them away. I like having the 5k shapton because sometimes I just use the 5k, 8k and a stop to hone an edge but I could live without it. I'd recommend just getting the 1k and 8k Shapton pros and a diamond plate to flatten them.

[David Peterson]

I'm with Joe.

I settled on my own sharpening method and Shaptons were my 'aha' moment. Low maintenance, easy use and very effective. No soaking, just sharpening. I keep hearing about the 15,000 and 30,000 grit stones but really don't understand the need. Grinder/220 grit sandpaper for major flattening or rebevel, the 1K to refine and 8K gives me razor sharp very nicely.

[Jim Matthews]

Started with Shaptons, got good results with a guide on the drawstroke only.

Switched to freehand with Atoma diamond plates, light oil instead of water.
Wish I had done it sooner.

[Winton Applegate]

shelve the woodworking for a couple of years

That's me too. Been keeping my hand in here at the forum and looking to get back after it again.

I hit it real hard for about 12 years then needed a brake.

aaaannnnyyyyway . . . I have never owned a glass Shapton.
I have many/most of the Shapton Pro stones (solid abrasive all the way through. No supporting base material.

I had Nortons and various other ones and twos of other stones.

I never saw the point of the glass stone except to save money maybe. Once you wear it down from flattening it you have a piece of glass. Or am I missing the point here ?

Personally the reason I DID NOT want the glass stones is I make it a habit to have one side of the stone very flat for polishing the backs of blades and for finish plane blades with only the corners radiused and use the OTHER SIDE of the stone for less critical work like honing radiused blades and chisels. If you are afraid you will forget which grit is which you can write the grit, e.g. 5000, on the thin edge of the stone with broad magic marker. It stays for a long time even with constant rinsing of the stone under running water.

So, that's why I didn't get excited about the glass stones.
Here is a good source for the Shapton Pros and if he doesn't have what you need (last I looked he wasn't stocking the courser stones) then check Amazon but I think it is worth supporting the first vender. He always has done first rate for me as far as price, fast shipping and excellent packaging.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm

PS: I have bought a few more Shaptons not shown here, the white 120 for example which is an excellent quick cutter. The white stone shown in the second photo is not a Shapton it is a cheep 80 grit stone. It does not cut as well as the 120 Shapton.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/8f712468-c436-4c00-8038-502a3acacaf1_zps1da22e93.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/8f712468-c436-4c00-8038-502a3acacaf1_zps1da22e93.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1623_zps1fe9339a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1623_zps1fe9339a.jpg.html)

[Noah Wagener]

Someone on here mentioned using some type of alcohol with waterstones and i don not think it would get cold enough to feeze that.

[Winton Applegate]

trundle buckets of water in from the kitchen

Nah dude, nah
Just sharpen in the kitchen, get a snack while you are there and you are good to go for a few more hours.
How ?
Stack O blades.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/AllVeritas.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/AllVeritas.jpg.html)

PS: Hi Charles !
I was think of you the other day.
I've missed yah.


Sharpening stones cost too much

Here, allow me to make our hand tool woodworking hobby look inexpensive. This is an engine in a multi million dollar vintage Ferrari

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0028_zps49ff7bce.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0028_zps49ff7bce.jpg.html)

Or we can talk varnish and up keep on a nice wooden sail boat.
Tune up costs of John Travolta's Jet any one ?

[Noah Wagener]

Winton, that is what, three hundered dollars worth of blades? Christopher said his budget was two for stones. You crack me up. Another guy asked about using duct tape to bush a grinder and you recommended getting a metal lathe.

I am suprised you did suggest the Kohinoor diamond as a hone.(^_^)

[Winton Applegate]

I keep hearing about the 15,000 and 30,000 grit stones but really don't understand the need.

Same reason I have more other grits than any sane woodworker would "need". I like to fart around with the stones and make the edges super smooth and shiny.

If all one cares about is sharp enough to cut wood then 6000 is enough and your grinder plus one or two other coarser stones.

You heard the one about the 11 on the sound system volume knob ?
Why not just 10 ?
Because it is 11 !
​http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc

It's kina like that. ;)

[Winton Applegate]

Another guy asked about using duct tape to bush a grinder and you recommended getting a metal lathe.

See what riding your bike to work can do for the ol' tool budget ?

Who was it that said "When I have money I buy books . . . if I have any left I buy food".
I think people can find more money than they think they can.
I don't make much and look what I have.

Priorities I suppose.
A guy needs GOOD tools other wise what's the use ?

[Noah Wagener]

Chris Guest is a genius.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGmNqzbsuiY

[Winton Applegate]

That's nuts !
Ha, ha,
I wonder if his dog bites him when he talks like that too much.
I would if I was his dog.

[Anthony Moumar]

Someone on here mentioned using some type of alcohol with waterstones and i don not think it would get cold enough to feeze that.

Using alcohol to reduce the freezing point of water will work but I'd question the viability of doing it. At -10 degree Celsius you would need over 20% of alcohol in solution. If your shop gets down to -20 degrees Celsius you need a 40% alcohol solution.

Assuming most of us don't have access to cheap pure ethnol, methylated spirits could be used to achieve the required solution in a cost effective way but that comes with a health risk. It might not be safe get methylated spirits on you hands every time you sharpen. The materials data sheet for methylated spirits says to use nitrile gloves from memory which in my opinion would be a hassle.

Ethanol also evaporates quite quickly so you would have to sure you keep the solution sealed air tight and that you regullaly add more ethanol to the solution quite frequently. I'm not sure if ethanol would have any negative effects on the binder or the abrasive used in the stones but that might be something to consider.

I think it would be more of a hassle than a than it's worth. It would probably be easier to take the stones inside when your don't for the day. In the long run it would probably be cheaper to buy stones that don't require soaking if you don't want to leave them out.

[George Beck]

I have used both Shapton glass stones and Shapton pro's. The glass stones work well but wear very fast. They were supposed to be formulated for A2 steel but I do not see or feel any difference. I have used just about every sharpening method out there and have just settled on hollow grind (now I have a tormek, I used a hand crank or "Cordless" grinder for 20 years) and Shapton Pro 1K, 5K ,15K. I only use the 1K after a fresh grind to set the bevel and camber the blade. If a plane or a chisel is just loosing it's edge a bit (not dull) I just use the 5K and a few strops on the 15K. The Naniwa Chorsea are pretty close and I like the 400 Chorsea (Its a fast cutter but not too soft and doesn't deep scratches). I use it for nicks and such. I do not know all of the particle microns and such nonsense. I just know I get the best edge quickly with the Shapton Pro's. I use an Atoma plate to keep them flat.

For what it is worth

George

[Marko Milisavljevic]

the flattener was spritz-and-go too; no effluent to deal with. I don't have a sink in my garage where I do my woodworking, so I have to trundle buckets of water in from the kitchen and afterwards there is grody effluent that gets trundled out to the street sewer.

You'd really want to rinse out the stone after flattening, quite a bit of white cream of sorts gets created when you flatten, so no water would still be an issue. If you have no ready source of water, I think diamonds are way ahead in terms of convenience and I prefer them to my glass stones (I have 1, 4 and 8k) mainly because they stay flat.

The only advantage Shapton stones have, in my limited experience, with mostly A2 steels, is that they feel a bit nicer when you are rubbing stuff on them. Metal-on-metal action with diamond plates is a not pleasant (not terribly unpleasant either... just indifferent). If you are the kind who gets off on sharpening, this might matter. ;)

[Christopher Charles]

Hello all,

Many thanks for the perspectives. I'll likely go with some combination of Shaptons and diamonds (in the coarser range). Will report back. Winton, thanks for the tip on Craftsman Studios. I'll likely order from there or Stu.

(and i hear you on the buy books, then food--my bandsaw was more than my truck...).

Cheers,
Chris C

[Christopher Charles]

Hello all,

I'm honing in on Shapton Pros from Stu (pardon). Am considering either a two-stone set up with 1k and 8k or springing for a three stone set up. The question would be 1k, 5k, 12k or 1k, 8k, 12k? or 1k, 5k, 8k...

Also, anyone know what his lead time is lately--I've heard he's backed up (I emailed a similar question and haven't heard back).

Thanks all!
C

[David Weaver]

I don't think 3 are necessary. 1k and 8k would be a good setup.

[Jim Neeley]

I'm with David when it comes to honing the edge. I use a grinder for a hollow bevel, a 1000 for a secondary bevel and a 16k for a tertiary bevel.

For polishing the backs of chisels, I use a 4k and a 8 or 10k before taking it to the 16k. Yes, it's overkill. Yes, it takes time, but you only do it once.

Jim

[Cory Waldrop]

Id say grab the 1k and 12k or 8k and see how you like it. If you feel you need an in-between, pick up the 5k. I personally have the 1k, 5k, and 15k and like the setup. You would be surprised that you can get a near mirror surface with the 5k. So 8k might be a good stopping point. I just like having the 15k :)

[Robert Culver]

I have had pro stones for a couple years now. I bought the 1k, 5k, and 15k. If I had to do it again I would have not bothered with the 5k. I never use it. I have a dmt course/xcourse that I use to flatten my stones and course work. not cheep but I am very happy with the results i get with the combo...

Im with Andrew on this one that is my basic set up as well I don't have or use the 5k I have the 8k instead and use it more than the 15k I also have the extra fine dmt for when im in a hurry and im very happy with what I have cant see changing anything til I wear something out!