ready to buy a set of stones !

[Matthew N. Masail]

For just about a year now I've been using a 25$ 800\4000 combination waterstone and a piece of MDF
with honing compound. this was my first stone and is now nearing the end of it's life - the 800 side with a few bare milimeters left.

This stone has served me well but was wayy too soft and anoying to use because of it's softneass - it will not allow me to control the edge profile, I had to use the Iwood 300 to do that (I got it when I got chisels from Stu). the 4000 clogs after a few seconds.

I don't have a clear budget, but I'm thinking around 300$ including shipping, which leaves around 250$.

I need a 1000, a 6000+ and somthing to flatten backs.

the line up for the fisrt two seems easy enough to choose. a "short set" from Stu, including the new Sigma 1200 and
a 6000 with base (that's the hard one right?) . any suggestions pro or con about stones or choises within the set?

should I spring and get an Atoma 400 instead of the Iwood 300? I will only use it for stones. the 300 I have has been Ok but
a little slow.

for faltening I have no clue..... a sigma 400 maybe? how fast does it dish? I have some old blades that need a lot of work.
if I do get a coarse stone, how do I keep it flat without using the floor outside?
a 120 grit Iwood would bring me into the 250 area, but if I have 50 to spare... what else could I get? :)

I really aprriciate the help!

[David Weaver]

What do you use to grind?

The 1200 and 6k set from stu would be a good set if you like hard stones (I haven't tried the 6000), but the 1200 is very hard (as you progress, hard is good).

If you use a grinder or belt sander, you don't really need anything other than those two stones.

I'd keep with the Iwood 300 you have and wait and see if you don't find that it's not needed nearly as much once you have harder stones. If you find out later that you want to get an atoma still, you can order it separately from stu and not pay too much. The 400 isn't particularly "fast" on stones, either, but it's fast enough and it leaves a relatively fine surface.

Your other option is a 1k shapton and an 8k or 12k shapton (professional...not the glasstones). I'd imagine stu also has the lowest prices on those, too, because the exchange rate is in a good place right now for buying something from japan.

What you get as the jump up from the 1k stone is really a matter of how you're using the stones. If you're not polishing large amounts of metal, there's no reason you can't go right from a 1k to a 12k type of stone. All it takes to make the jump is a slight lift of the handle of whatever you're sharpening.

[Chris Griggs]

What Dave said!

[Matthew N. Masail]

for most things I hollow grind at 30 degrees and then free hand or use a honing guide. I only want a coarse "somthing" for back work, I really need somthing.

why would I want a shapton vs a sigma? ... would it be good to get a finer stone then 6000 or does the honing compound acomplish that?

the Iwood I have is very very worn.... since shipping is like 40-50 $ dosen't make sense to me wait..

[jamie shard]

For back work, there is nothing I've found to be better than cheap 120 grit sandpaper and a reference surface (e.g. cheap granite block from woodcraft). Using a stone is just too slow.

Use a vacuume cleaner to keep the sandpaper "clean", but use new paper when the cutting slows down. Don't waste time, spend a few cents and use more paper.

Use the 120 to get a scratch pattern across the whole surface, switch to 220 grit and do the same (this will be much faster), then use your stones. Unless you do A LOT of backs, this will be all you need.

The reference surface comes in handy for other tasks, too.

[Chris Griggs]

If you know how to use it well the Sig 6k can give you the edge you need. Keep in mind that its finer than a norton 8k. A bit of palm stropping bring the edge even farther,a yes, fine honing compound will bring you to just as sharp as any stone can.

The 400 is nice, the king 300 is also very nice, Stu also has been pushing a Cerax 320 that is supposedly very nice. I would just ask stu which one you should get, or what the differences are. He'll give you better info on the different coarse stones than any of us can.

Shapton v. Sigma

Well Dave just lent me his shapton 5k, a stone that gets very little love, and its a fantastic stone. The shaptons are hard and slick, they give you a lot of feedback in terms of feeling the edge really clink down, but next to no feedback as far as cutting action. I actually personally prefer the hard slick feel of the Shapton.

The sig 6k by comparison while hard is not hard in the glassy way that a shapton is. You can feel its cutting action, and from the little side by side comparison I've done I think the sigs have an edge in terms of the speed to fineness ratio.

Anyway, I have a new found love for the shaptons, but I think for most people the Sig is probably a better option. The capability in terms of speed and fineness you'll get from the 1200-6k set is unmatched. Just get that set... I still think its the best bang for buck out there.

[Jim Foster]

Still an amateur, but thought I'd throw 2 cents in. I hollow grind first, then use the King 800, 1200 and 6000. (Not trying to peddle a brand) This range seems to work well. If my hollow grind comes out really well, I can go directly to the 1200 and then 6000. The change I would consider is having an 8000 vs. the 6000, but I still need to get my consistency and speed up several notches.

[David Weaver]

For back work, there is nothing I've found to be better than cheap 120 grit sandpaper and a reference surface (e.g. cheap granite block from woodcraft). Using a stone is just too slow.

Use a vacuume cleaner to keep the sandpaper "clean", but use new paper when the cutting slows down. Don't waste time, spend a few cents and use more paper.

Use the 120 to get a scratch pattern across the whole surface, switch to 220 grit and do the same (this will be much faster), then use your stones. Unless you do A LOT of backs, this will be all you need.

The reference surface comes in handy for other tasks, too.

The woodcraft option is probably not there in israel unless there's a woodworking or machinist discounters there that might have it, but I agree on the sandpaper. Norton 3x or any good quality aluminum oxide paper backed paper stuck down uniformly with an adhesive is better than any stone, especially if ultimate cost is a consideration. One sheet of 100 grit 3x will take pretty deep pits out of a chisel as long as the swarf is swept or vacuumed off of it, and the total cost of the operation is about 50 cents a tool. A new blade that is worse off than thought only uses a third of a sheet or so.

[David Weaver]

Well Dave just lent me his shapton 5k, a stone that gets very little love, and its a fantastic stone. The shaptons are hard and slick, they give you a lot of feedback in terms of feeling the edge really clink down, but next to no feedback as far as cutting action. I actually personally prefer the hard slick feel of the Shapton.

Yeah, until we looked it up, I couldn't figure out why people hammer it. But seeing that the abrasive is around 3 microns, people are probably expecting something twice as coarse to go between a 1k and a 12/15k, and it's really closer to a finish stone. I LOVE it despite the fact that I rarely ever use it.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, until we looked it up, I couldn't figure out why people hammer it. But seeing that the abrasive is around 3 microns, people are probably expecting something twice as coarse to go between a 1k and a 12/15k, and it's really closer to a finish stone. I LOVE it despite the fact that I rarely ever use it.

That's whats so great about it. Different as they are. It has the same virtues as the Sig 6k. Fast enough to follow any 800 to 1200 stone with ease, fine enough to jump up to any super fine stone or compound and also fine enough to finish with. The edge of the Shaton 5k or Sig 6k is good enough for 99% of the work most of use do in north american hardwoods. This is especially true once you learn how to get the most out of them.

[Matthew N. Masail]

OK. so I'll get the 1200 and 6000. and try the sandpaper. soI have some cash left over..... should I spring and get the full set with the 13000 too? what will the 13000 give me?

another thought is getting the 1200 - 6000 and the shapton 1000. that way I can see the difference and have another stone for working on the backs. what do you think?

also, the Sigma are soakers, more or less, which is fine.... can I leave a shapton in water? does it need to be soaked?

[Jim Koepke]

I only want a coarse "somthing" for back work, I really need somthing.

For me, this seems best done by some coarse sheet abrasive adhered to a flat piece of granite or tile. ymmv

Forgot to read all the posts before replying:


Use a vacuume cleaner to keep the sandpaper "clean", but use new paper when the cutting slows down.

Don't do this if you are married, unless you like sleeping in the shop.

For me, a magnet wrapped in paper works. The paper is easy to peel off and keep the filings contained. There is also a steel screw in a leg at the bench used for the magnet to stay when not in use.

jtk

[Charles Bjorgen]

Hi Matthew -- I went with the short set from Stu as follows:

Sigma Power ceramic 1000-6000 set.
Sigma Power ceramic/Select II #1200 (replaced the 1,000)
Sigma Power ceramic #6000 (no base/Jinzo-renge-suita)
Sigma Power set diamond plate - iWood #300 (single sided)
Sigma Power set base options - Suehiro 'Free size' style base, with tray.

I already owned the Sigma II 10,000 grit stone sold by Lee Valley. Stu was extremely helpful in making my selection. If I need to establish a new bevel I will grind on a Tormek and now freehand with the stones to achieve a micro bevel. The Tormek gives me a hollow grind. I tend to soak these stones for a couple minutes but have also been experimenting with a splash and go method. The Tormek was a purchase made 12 or 13 years ago. Thought about selling it but it fits in nicely with my methods now.

My sharpening has become pretty simple with this setup.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Hi Charles,

Do you find that the 10000 grit stone gives a noticeble improvment to the edge?

And did you get the hard or soft 6000?

Thanks

[Charles Bjorgen]

The 6,000 stone I got is listed as slightly more friable which I guess means softer. The 10,000 Sigma was actually bought before I got the package from Stu. I make an assumption that I get a finer edge from it but that's strictly from casual observation and not anything empirical. I probably would have bought the bigger package with the 13,000 grit Sigma if I hadn't already owned the 10,000. Folks here who have bought the bigger package seem pretty happy with it.

[Chris Griggs]

Until you jump up to something really fine like chromium oxide/other honing compound or a sub 1 micron stone like the 13k, its hard to tell much improvement from other stones above the 6k after a palm stropping. The edge off my 6k is improved by my Naniwas Snowwhite 8k and I used to have a sigma 10k and that improved the edge also. However, the improvement is not easy to see in standard sharpness tests. By that I mean you will be able to pare softwood endgrain off the 6k and when you go to an 8 or 10k you'll still be able to do it with about the same ease. However the edge is sharper. You see it in the form of edge longevity and better result on less well behaved woods.

BUT Only when you go to something significantly finer than the 6k do you really notice the improvement. If you go to the 13k you go from cleanly paring softwood and leaving nice bright finish to sliding through endgrain that glows after the cut is made. Honestly unless you are going to go to something really fine like a sig 13 or a shapton 15 or a very fine honing compound I wouldn't bother going with another stone above the 6k. Until you get to something really fine the difference just isn't that significant, and if you know to let the 6k dry to work it finer and then palm strop it pretty much will make it better than or equal to most 8 to 10k stones in terms of how it performs on wood.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Well.. Thank you all so much for the input, and not just sending me to read previous posts.

I just ordered the special set with the 13000 stone and the 1200. I figured I'll be hurting due to all the lusting over it if I don't.

At the risk of asking the obvious, what is palm stropping? and how do you do it safely?

[Chris Griggs]

You just pull (NOT PUSH) the edge across your palm a few times, flipping it back an forth so you hit each side of the blade. Just go slow so you don't inadvertently stab yourself in the palm, DAMHIKT. I'm not exactly sure what it does but it makes the edge seem sharper. My guess is that it removes any remaining burr that wasn't removed. It makes a marked difference coming of off mid grit to medium fine stones (and oil stones) I'm not sure if it will do anything to improve the edge of the 13k though - that edge need no improvement.

[Georg Zudoff]

Hi,

Some words about sandpaper cleaning. I prefer to use 3M Wetordry sandpaper. Despite it is not cheap as Klingspor and other noname brands you can in Ukrainian do-it-yourself shops, 3M will stay longer. I use it for back of blades and for bevel forming too. Of coarse with water. After sanding I rinse sandpaper sheet with water and that's all. No vacuum cleaner, no magnets.