Sliding Table Shapers

[Mike Heidrick]

Big Saw Joe and 3" Dave and many others have been helping me learn about sliding saws.

What I need help with as well is sliding shapers. So combo guys and big shaper guys weigh in with pictures please - any kind of sliding table or other awesome shaper setups I want to see.

I have a T1002S. It has a 1' thick big tenoning plate with fence and another seperate T fence that is like the hammer fence in style. They have stops D and spring loaded stops as well.

Both have posts for eccentric clamps which I use. I sometimes worry about wood movement though.

I also have a 4 wheel 1hp feeder mounted.

My main fence is Lagunas model that has bars similar to an Aigner. It has positional mounting but not tilt away.

I also have the tenoning hood.

I am looking for ides on how you mount wood to your slider, how you hold it down and in place etc. Any advice on how to get more out of my slider? Many time I am using it like a traditional shaper with a feeder.

Any pictures of jigs or methods??


Mikie

[ian maybury]

Can't help much Mike, but interested to see what comes up. I've a 3KW Hammer F3 shaper with the stock short slider awaiting setting up and use, and am new to spindle use.

There's times I wonder if i wouldn't have done better to get the version of the 8ft K3 Perform with the spindle built in - it would have meant (a) a long slider, and (b) more floor space.

One step for me is the need to buy a power feeder - awaiting funds. So one angle of interest is just what is and is not possible without one.....

ian

[Erik Loza]

Courtesy of my colleague, Sam. Mild to wild...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Settingupforcopestick2-1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Settingupforcopestick-1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Settingupforcope_stick.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FPDoor10_1.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FPDoor9.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FPDoor2.jpghttp://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Shaper%20Projects/FPRaisedPanelSled2.jpg

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

Erik has really good pictures. My set ups are similar. Here are things I try to remember

Yellow tires on feeder- Western Roller or Axiom. Wax table and not too much down pressure. You get a feel for it.

Crosscut fence locked down hard at exactly 90. Heavy cuts tend to pull the out end of the fence forward so always watch for that. Even a little is a lot.

At least one eccentric clamp down and I also always use a second hand squeeze type holding the board to fence if the board is over 3/4". I do 1.75" doors and only one cut so good clamps are a must.

If doing matching end cuts for stiles I try to use boards twice as wide and rip down the middle so each is exactly the same. You should be able to do that safely with your SS.

I also use an auxiliary fence that either fits over the existing or have modified the flip stop for entry door or stile cuts when I want to reference off the face or back but not off the tongue. I never reference off the tongue so a stop that flips down partially helps.

I made a feather board that attaches to the T slots in the sliding table when doing edge or rail cutting, especially for short pieces. They can tip in or the end kick out so a feather board helps the feeder to keep them heading straight down the line.

Whenever I have the room I use the feeder as a guard. If I'm doing raised panels I might clamp them to the crosscut fence but if wide enough I leave the sliding table free and use the feeder and shaper fence for the cut. Even if I don't need it I use the feeder if I can.

When in doubt err on the slow side with the feeder. Slow is annoying but fast can be fatal.

I have big shapers and always try to shape in one pass. I've never had luck with the second fine cut thing. My best cuts come in one pass and it cuts my ability to screw up in half.

Check your cope cuts with a square square every so often. Any light showing on one end will screw up your life. Errors don't cancel in shaping. they always multiply.

I'm sure I'll think of more. Dave trying to grow.

[Erik Loza]

One observation I have made, in particular with combo machines, is that the factory usually installs the sliding table a few-thousandths of an inch proud of the cast iron table. They do this so that panels don't drag while you are cutting them but it can be frustrating when you are switching back and forth between sliding table saw and shaper, to accomodate that extra height into your shaper endgrain work. So, if you have a saw/shaper or 4-in-1 combo and want to do lots of tenoning or endgrain work, I would be ready to adjust the slider height down a little bit, yourself.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

Erik, the sliding table height really shows up well in the pictures. I try for .001-.002 right in front of the spindle. Important that the table and the slider are parallel or on the same plane might be more accurate. You don't want the end cuts at even a slight angle . Checking the tilting spindle against the spindle for angle and not the bushings is good too. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Erik, the sliding table height really shows up well in the pictures. I try for .001-.002 right in front of the spindle. Important that the table and the slider are parallel or on the same plane might be more accurate. You don't want the end cuts at even a slight angle . Checking the tilting spindle against the spindle for angle and not the bushings is good too. Dave

Ya, I remember watching Sam working on that slider with his long straight-edge for a while, to get it where he wanted. In this photo, he is checking the slider freecut, as you mentioned...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Checkingsawbladefreecut.jpg

...and checking spindle perpendicularity during raising/lowering...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Dialindicatoronshaperspindle.jpg

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Quinn]

One observation I have made, in particular with combo machines, is that the factory usually installs the sliding table a few-thousandths of an inch proud of the cast iron table. They do this so that panels don't drag while you are cutting them but it can be frustrating when you are switching back and forth between sliding table saw and shaper, to accomodate that extra height into your shaper endgrain work. So, if you have a saw/shaper or 4-in-1 combo and want to do lots of tenoning or endgrain work, I would be ready to adjust the slider height down a little bit, yourself.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Will the tenoning plate not solve the table/slider height issue? I'm thinking if you are clamped to the plate the cut edge of the piece won't flutter and it won't tend to drag the table either. It would be held a fixed height above the table and move perpendicular to the spindle. I've had issue with my rustic t40 setup where the slightest bow in a piece of stock will drag hard on the table once the eccentric clamp is set making it almost hard to advance the carraige. Sure, a lot of bow and a part gets defected, but a little, and for certain things, still works fine. Is the tenoning plate rigid enough to keep things in line or even clamp a slight bow out without flexing?

[Mike Heidrick]

Is the tenoning plate rigid enough to keep things in line or even clamp a slight bow out without flexing?

I think it should be from Felder. My plate alone from Laguna weighs in at around 85lbs without the clamp.

[David Kumm]

Peter, I've had three different tenoning plates and am embarrassed to say I've seldom used them. The Felder plate was 1/2" steel and the back was recessed over the cast table to insure no interference, the other two were cast iron. Aigner makes a cope cut accessory that is easier to use for a couple short pieces so the plates sit. I almost always just use the slider and clamp to it. The Felder shaper table gets closer to the spindle so that may be a help. I don't use the slding table on the T130 often because it sits so far away. One reason I don't think the SCMI slider is as handy as on a little smaller machine. To answer your question the tenoning tables range from 25-40 lbs or more. The Knapp is really heavy. None of them will ever deflect. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Yeah, the plate is PLENTY rigid. Trust me, you wouldn't want to drop it on your foot. Here the plate as well as a dedicated tenoning hood...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Assorted%20MM%20pics/TecnomaxCU410Elite-Stenoningset_zps55d0f8e0.jpg

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rod Sheridan]

The Hammer tenon plate is a hollow aluminium extrusion with a machined relief on the bottom.

The force from the hold down clamp is over the table, not over the free space, deflection isn't an issue........Rod.

[Stephen Cherry]

I had a sliding table on my scmi shaper, but I took it off due to the dragging issues already mentioned. It really is a tall order to have the surface of the sliding table and the machine table exactly on the same plane, particularly if you want to place the tenon very accurately. Realisticly, it's not going to happen. I guess the plate would solve this issue, but I have not tried it. If I wanted to do entry doors, it would be first up on my to do list.

For normal coping, such as door parts or table aprons, a simple jig with destaco clamps will have both sides of the board done before you can blink. I do this in one of two ways. For tenons, I have 8" tenon disks, which I use with a 4 inch bearing mounted below the bottom disk. I use a jig that rides on the bearing to mount the workpiece with destaco clamps. The first cut cuts the backer board, and this is used to locate the scribe line for the tenon.

For coping, I use a jig that rides in the slot and the shaper fence. The first step is to make a cut from a long piece with the fence backed off, so that material is cut off the end of the tenon. Leaving the wood clamped in, the fence is set to just touch the wood. Much easier with a stub fence than a real heavy fence. Later cuts are placed right against the fence and theoretically the length of the part will not change.

[ian maybury]

To ask a couple of very basic questions related to clamping. The Hammer F3 uses the Felder hold down clamp - very similar to the one in the first photo in Erik's post no.3:

1. How reliable is this pattern of clamp to hold down e.g. a piece as in that photo?

2. Is it possible to damage the T slot in the slider by over tightening one? (bearing in mind that my Hammer slider might be a shade lighter than some)

Thanks

ian

[Rod Sheridan]

To ask a couple of very basic questions related to clamping. The Hammer F3 uses the Felder hold down clamp - very similar to the one in the first photo in Erik's post no.3:

1. How reliable is this pattern of clamp to hold down e.g. a piece as in that photo?

2. Is it possible to damage the T slot in the slider by over tightening one? (bearing in mind that my Hammer slider might be a shade lighter than some)

Thanks

ian

Hi Ian, I have the hold down clamp, it has never had an issue

I'm sure someone somewhere could damage anything, I haven't had any issues.........Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

Ian, the only issue some clamps have is the tendency to move the stock away from the fence when tightened. That is partially why I use the second clamp to the fence. My pneumatic clamps have settings 6 degrees either direct of zero to direct the stock. The lighter the sliding table the bigger the base to avoid any damage but also to add strength to the clamp. All the force isdirected at the back end of the base so having it stick out the back helps to direct the force downward and keep the stock from moving out from the fence. Mac at AirtightClamps also made me some longer bases with a bearing that allows them to move almost effortlessly before a kip lever locks it down. Shaper and saw people should look at his site, www.airtightclamps.com (http://www.airtightclamps.com). I'm a broken record about Mac's clamps but like small one man shows that make a superior product. Cheaper and way nicer than the new Felder ones. Dave

[ian maybury]

Ta guys. Sounds like damage isn't a serious possibility short of major abuse. Guess I bought the clamp with the machines before knowing about the Airtight items. It's a very hefty piece of kit...

Think while not all that experienced that I'd have mixed views about short sliders too. The big advantage of the long variety (take care about the measurements when selecting one - an 8ft Hammer slider is for example exactly that - there's no extra length to leave free slot length for clamping an 8ft long piece) as posted by others recently is that as well as allowing the handling of a full size sheet it leaves room to leave two or set ups in situ on the slider. e.g. a short fence on a mitre gauge, plus the long fence on the support frame, plus...)

Even a shorter slider though has significant advantages in terms of safety, ease of use (just reach out and ease the slider through the cut) and the guarantee of a straight edged cut.

The big slider takes up a lot of space, but has some big advantages too. I've been cutting down ply sheets recently and have been amazed at how straight forward it all becomes - all of the stress associated with trying to keep a big sheet aligned against a short rip fence just disappears. Don't forget that in addition to space for the slider and the support frame that quite a bit of space is needed to ease the loading of sheets on to the saw too...

Interested to see a new Hammer K4 Perform panel saw just announced. A quick glance suggests it's very similar on both price and spec to the Felder K500s - with an upgraded saw spindle/dust chute and top guard set up compared to the K3 Perform I have.

ian

[Erik Loza]

To ask a couple of very basic questions related to clamping. The Hammer F3 uses the Felder hold down clamp - very similar to the one in the first photo in Erik's post no.3:

1. How reliable is this pattern of clamp to hold down e.g. a piece as in that photo?

2. Is it possible to damage the T slot in the slider by over tightening one? (bearing in mind that my Hammer slider might be a shade lighter than some)

Thanks

ian

Ian,

My colleague Sam (the gentleman in most of my photos...) places a small swatch of shoe leather between the foot of the clamp and the workpiece. You might see it if you look closely. This gives you a minor amount of cushioning as well as mitigating the subtle "shift" the foot sometimes makes as it cams down onto the workpiece, which can sometimes move the workpiece ever-so-slightly. If you're using pneumatic clamps, this is a non-issue.

Best,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Heidrick]

Any one have DIY pneumatic clamp plans or bill of materials? What stroke length do your clamps have?

[Jeff Monson]

253102 Here is a list of some tubing and connectors for air clamps

[Charles Brown]

Mike, this is what I've been wanting to know. I have have never purchased pancake cylinders new for a woodworking application. I've only harvested parts from old machines that are out of service but had pneumatic hold downs on their jigs. I would love a little DIY tutorial on how to source / build these.