Raised panel woes

[Julie Moriarty]

I mentioned in another thread I was making Mission Style doors for the kitchen cabinets. I'd planned 4/4 Honduran mahogany for the rails & stiles and rift sawn A1 oak plywood for the panels. Some here said I could probably use 1/4" ply. I bought the mahogany and 1/4" plywood and all the rails & stiles are done, ready for assembly But I think the plywood is too flimsy for the larger doors. It's actually 3/16" and not the 15/64" I was expecting. And they didn't have A1, only A4 in rift sawn.

I was considering going back and buying 5/4 makore, resawing and planing it to 1/2" and gluing up the wider panels. There's 37 total panels needed. Lots more work. And the wood might cost $500-$700 more. Lots more money. If I knew we were staying here for many years, it would be an easy decision but we may be putting the house up for sale in the spring and the cabinet reface is needed. Still, someone may come in and rip out the whole kitchen once they buy the house.

So I thought maybe I could buy some more 1/4" oak plywood and glue it back-to-back on the rift sawn ply we have. I don't have a press or a vacuum bag so I would have to place lots of weight on it. We had the store rip the 4x8 sheets of the rift into 2x8 so it could be loaded in the SUV. So I wouldn't have to glue up full 4x8 sheets. Standard wood glue just doesn't seem the way to go. I don't know why but something seems like it would fail. I was thinking construction adhesive. Contact cement concerns me. I don't want to get into 2-part epoxy, too messy.

Has anyone tried gluing up two 1/4" ply back-to-back? How did it work and what adhesive did you use?

Thanks,
Julie

[Sam Murdoch]

I think I would use the 3/16" ply as planned and add some 3/8" or 1/2" thick x 2" frames on the back - in essence an inner rail and stile. Use what material you have on hand for thickness and width. These could simply be glued and pocket screwed joints. Glued to your panels with clamps before assembly. Little more work but not so much money. Leave a 1/16' to 1/8" clearance all around to the real rail and stiles - a visual detail and a practical matter for allowing wood movement - not for the panels but for the frames inner and outer.

EDIT -

My suggestion is to do this just for the larger doors - not all 37 panels.I would not do this for a client but in your situation as described I think this would be more than acceptable. Your favorite wood glue would be perfectly fine.

To answer your specific question of adding panels to the panels -since it seems you already bought the additional 1/4" ply. I think I would completely assemble the doors then add your inner pieces with wood glue brushed on evenly or applied with a saw tooth trowel and clamp each as well as possible. If you have a micro pinner I would use that. Once the glue dries you will be fine. You only need to hold the panels together while the glue cures. The Kreg type pad clamps with the right reach would be a good clamp to use.

[Don Jarvie]

Here's a suggestion, it's a bit hacky but it will work.

Get some 100% clear silicone chalk and put a bead inside all the grooves all the way around and dropping the panel and glue up. You need enough chalk to keep the panel from rattling and not seep out. Next, add a thin piece of wood to the back between the panel and rail/stile like a shim so it will keep the panel pressed toward the front. The shim should be hidden once pushed in. I push it in and then trim.

If you prefer you can glue a thin strip around the perimiter of the panel to thicken it up so it fits tighter in the groove.

I know it's Mickey Mouse but no reason to go crazy if you plan to sell.

[Jim Foster]

I know its a lot of work, but one other idea would be to cut the back of the grooves off the rails and stiles, glue up the frames, before or after removing the backside of the groove, drop the panels in place via the back of the door, and use mitered strips that are screwed in with small wood screws to neatly fasten the panel to the frame. If done neatly it will look like they were made that way and be a fine finished product that does not look like a hack to fix a mistake

[Jeff Duncan]

You've already been given some good suggestions. My first thought is why do you have two different species for the doors? Are they going to be painted, or are you actually going to have mahogany doors with oak panels? BTW....not judging here....just asking for clarification.

My top three suggestions would be....

Firstly, find a local retailer that carries 1/4" oak veneered mdf panels, (which will be 1/4", or very very near it), and just re-cut your panel stock.

Second, gluing the panel in as is, and when you glue up the doors make sure the panel is pressed to the front of the frame. Then come back afterwards and glue in some 3/16" x 3/16" solid strips around the panel back to hide the gap.

Third method would be to pick up some oak veneer and veneer the back of your ply panels. You won't get a full 1/16" but if you find a good veneer supply you can probably get close to half of that which may get you close enough. Gluing up the veneer may be easier than trying to laminate a whole 1/4" panel which would then be too big for your grooves still leaving you a problem.

Lastly a few friendly suggestions for future door making.....I do not use ply panels ever....and I mean ever! They're too flimsy, undersized and never flat. I only use veneered mdf panels and I also switched to 3/8" panels for most of my doors. The mdf allows you a nice flat, usually full thickness panel that can be glued in place. The extra thickness makes for a much nicer door feel, it just has a bit more heft, for lack of a better term. Finding the veneered mdf may be a bit tougher to find from a retailer, but any good plywood wholesaler will have it. Or alternatively you could find a local cabinet shop that may be willing to order it for you.

good luck,
jeffD

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks for the input guys. Before I saw the replies I went out and bought 3 sheets of 1/4" plain sawn oak with MDF core. I had them rip them to 2x8 so I could handle and transport them back home. I also bought a gallon of Liquid Nails and a V-groove trowel - 3/16 x 3/16.

Jeff, yes, we are combining mahogany and oak. And I completely understand where you're coming from. I think I have a pretty good eye for what works, but I'm nervous on this one.

The cabinet carcases are oak. We did some remodeling last year and now have granite countertops. No way are we touching that so the carcases stay. We thought the existing doors and drawers would look OK once the mini remodel was done but they still look dated. We knew everything we've done would be for naught if we didn't reface the cabinets.

My plans are sanding down the carcases and restaining with a dark or ebony stain/dye. That would go well with the granite. I had at first planned mahogany w/figured maple panels and ebony trim (as in the example below) but was overruled because "there's too much wavy grain" and it will look outdated. That's where the rift sawn oak came in, very straight grain. We're going to find a stain or mix up a dye that will be a bit lighter than lacquered mahogany (no stain or dye). Then we'll finish it off with poly. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

This is where it all started:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Contrast_01_zpsd8161569.jpg
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/Contrast_02_zps2145fe52.jpg

The combinations that have been "approved" have the scribble on them. I'm going for the Mahogany-Cherry look, maybe a bit darker on the panel. I could not find any rift sawn cherry in stock so it would have to be ordered and the price was shocking. Plus we still had to deal with the existing oak carcase. So we went to plywood because rift sawn oak was special order too and quarter sawn got the thumbs down.

I've never built a cabinet door that wasn't raised panel 4/4 solid wood. For the Mission Style the panel would have to be no more than 1/2" thick. I'm hoping the panels, once glued, will be sturdy enough. It will be around 3/8" thick.

Anyway, I will either use Liquid Nails or Titebond to glue-up the 1/4" rift to the 1/4" plain sawn panels. Because I can't apply tons of pressure on it, I'm thinking the LN would be the better option but I'm concerned about spacing caused by the thickness of the adhesive. Whatever direction I go, I'll begin stacking the glue-ups on the floor, one on top of the other, until done. Then I'll stack everything I can find of substantial weight on the stack and hope for the best. If all goes well, I'll rout the edges to 1/4" thickness, just like I would with a raised panel. If not, it's back to the lumber store.

This is like a Star Trek episode, "To go where no man (woman) has gone before." Wish me luck!

[Peter Quinn]

I've used red oak 1/4" ply as a back on a sapele cabinet, once finished you would have to stare at it to notice. I wasn't going for contrast. I found a light wash of water based dye, in my case Lockwood's vandyke brown mahogany, then a coat of an oil based pigmented stain made the final color quite close to the ever popular "pottery barn mocha" that my wife requested. I would be inclined to go for a neutral and popular even coloration if a sale is immanent. That contrasting mixed wood look is real tricky to get right, turns lots of people off even at its best, and IMO works better on a stand alone conversation piece than a wall of kitchen cabs. There it looks kitsch....translation amateur.


On the A4 plywood, you may have figured out that is really meant for things like cabinet backs, end panels, anything fully supported with one blind face. A good plywood supplier can get material for flat panel doors, it will not be cheap, solids might be a cost effective alternative for next time. For your laminations I'd use 3/4" MDf platens top and bottom, wax paper between the layers to catch any drips, a few good cauls, whatever clamps you can muster and titebond glue. Doesnt take massive pressure to get a decent bond on that face glue using an improvised press. Keep the sizes similar, cut to final size later if possible so pressure is even and no hollow spots. Don't cut final sizes then press in case things shift a little, you need room to fix them. Pl adhesive is too thick, that may prove problematic when it comes time to fit these in a panel groove. I've actually heard of a person parking the car on a stack of laminations successfully for clamping pressure.

good luck, love to see finished picks

[John TenEyck]

I would use PVA glue. Having used construction adhesive for some panels long ago, I found it hard to get a consistent finished thickness, as noted above. With PVA glue, all you have to do is get the two layers into contact, you don't need much pressure.

The other comment (too late now, I know) to use MDF is good to keep in mind for the future. MDF panels are true thickness and dead flat and smooth. It is perfect for flat panels. I used some 1/2" veneered MDF panels for a kitchen remodel a couple of years ago, and it made for a beautiful, solid door.

John

[Jeff Duncan]

Julie, Peter got to it before me, mixing wood species on kitchen doors is really risky! On furniture it's a different story, but when you have a kitchen full of doors you may not like it as much as you think. My advice is to make up one door as a test piece and then use your best judgement from there.

I'm also not sure why your still gluing up the panels? If you found 1/4" oak on mdf, doesn't that fit your grooves correctly now? And if you glue up to 3/8" how are you going to machine the edges to fit into what I'm assuming is a 1/4" groove?

As for glues I'm not sure I'd want to try it out with LN? PVA maybe, but without a press it's going to be tricky. Again I would recommend a test run before committing all your material.

At this point my best advice is to slow down a bit. Take a minute to really evaluate where your at. Making up a test door will take some additional time, however making up the whole batch of doors only to find problems x,y, and z and have to start from scratch will be much worse. In this business we do samples all the time as it's amazing how many things are out there to trip you up. Take this advice for what it's worth, but I've read enough of these stories over the years to see the potential for a not-so-happy ending. The whole concept of gluing the two panels up the way your describing now just sounds like something bad is about to happen. Better to take your time and make sure it works first;)

good luck,
jeffD

[J.R. Rutter]

I have laminated sheets goods in stacks just using bags of traction or play sand on top of an MDF platen. Use a glue that is thin enough to squish down. Construction adhesive is way too thick. Just put the glue on from a bottle in a web pattern. I find it more difficult and no better to spread it in a uniform layer. I would do this in the large sheets so you don't have to worry so much about the edge squeeze out.

And, yes you should be able to get MDF core sheets in just about any species these days. The mill that my suppliers use will do just a few sheets these days, since they are not as busy.

Not that it helps, but just as an example of commercial solutions: When I got custom tooling, I spec'd 6 mm grooves and the 1/4" mdf core material either fits as is, or we skim the back side with a cove on the edges so that it fits tightly without rattling.

[Sam Murdoch]

With a little more thought on your dilemma Julie - I don't know why you are putting yourself through so much extra work. I know you already have all the extra material BUT - Unless your rails and stiles are especially undersized the panel serves not much structural purpose. It just fills the hole. You could just as easily have used screen cloth. My point is that even for the larger doors the 1/4" panels (though admittedly flimsy) should be fine with no additional support.

As I wrote earlier if I were building for a client I would have a different attitude, but in the case of these cabinets being transitional - until spring? - then why add the extra effort and aggravation? I'm 98% certain that the average house buyer will not open and close your cabinet doors to see if they are flimsy. They might notice panels rattling but they won't note the thin panels on doors that are properly hung.

If you must add some extra stiffener in the big doors a simple mid rail on the back side will be more than sufficient. FYI, I am by nature inclined to overbuild everything so I don't encourage this slack approach casually :). Without seeing the exact situation - based on your description - I think I'd be satisfied with the single thickness panels. Just my 2¢.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks Sam but I think I am a masochist. Or maybe I'm getting senile. Either way I'm pretty sure I just wasted a whole lot of energy and a few bucks too. In the picture below only the bottom six individual panels are glued up... with the Liquid Nails. I ran out after three pairs were done. That was a blessing. You can see they didn't bond together too well:

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/SANDWICH_01_zps072d67b3.jpg
The wood on top is just some of what I stacked on to weigh it down but it just wasn't enough. You can see the gap the LN created. Bad choice #1.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/SANDWICH_02_zpsadd77a24.jpg
I ran out of both heavy stuff and energy. Maybe about 50 sand bags might be a good start.

Oh well. Lessons learned and calories burned. :rolleyes:

[Jeff Duncan]

I had to go back and re-read the original post, somehow I missed that you may be selling the house? I would seriously reconsider your plan of attack. If your going to stay that's one thing, but realistically the look your trying to achieve may not be that pleasing to a potential buyer, or worse it could be a turnoff for them. If your going to sell you may be doing more harm than good! Just something to think about from someone whose removed a fair amount of almost new kitchens from houses to build new ones for the new owners! Oh and the worst part IS removing that shiny new granite slab:(

Now as for your glue ups....I forgot to ask previously but are you gluing the 1/4" ply to the 1/4" mdf? If so your going to have more problems. The dissimilar materials will very likely warp if you do get them glued up. If your gluing the two ply panels up they should be OK, but as you've found a different glue may be in order.

I think your best bet really is to find the material you need/want on an mdf core and avoid all the experimenting. Sometimes we get so caught up in how we're going to make something work, we lose sight of how much time and money gets invested. And how much cheaper it would have been having just gone the tried and true method from the get go.

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Well said ,Jeff. The new owners are unlikely to want to keep THEIR canned soup where you kept YOUR canned soup.

[Julie Moriarty]

I think I'm getting depressed. That whole "they may not like the new cabinets" has played through my mind over and over. And the ply panels just aren't working for me. This must be what's working on my psyche because I haven't even wanted to walk back into the workshop since the glue-up disaster. At least I only did half of them. And I didn't even think of plywood core vs. MDF core issues. So if we somehow end up not selling I'll be kicking myself later.

I've had so many people tell me they love what we've done to the kitchen... "but those cabinets are SOOOO dated!" They are that almond laminate type with a strip of oak, top and bottom. I've been looking at them for so long (1986) that I was blind to how ugly they are.

Anyone have a time machine so I can go back and start over?

I just noticed the first picture in the glue-up post didn't take:
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/SANDWICH_01_zps072d67b3.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

Julie ,I sympathize .This crazy notion goes back to avocado and harvest gold refrigerators;before that a kitchen upgrade was a coat of paint . I have the same kind of cabinets you do. Though I make improvements to our house ,I make no "upgrades". Your cabinets have not changed . Advertising in magazines has changed. Our friends and neighbors like the changes we have made,but I don't flatter myself that I could design a kitchen that wouldn't be "ugly" a couple of years out. Fix the kitchen to something YOU like now that is affordable.You can't design a kitchen the next lady is going to like anymore than you can go buy her a dress now that is going to fit and be her color. Spend your money on sensible mechanical improvements done by people with good reputation and photo document and save all paperwork . Plant a couple of trees that are of fine quality and different from what your neighbors have. THEY will increase in value.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks Mel. I needed that.

I've been working in the yard the past two summers and it shows. Years ago we planted a Japanese lilac and a Magnolia tree that are just coming to a nice size. Last summer we trimmed all the big trees so you could see the newly painted house better. And we laid some pavers too. In the spring we'll get back to finishing the outside facelift. I feel better already. :)

Now, what to do with all this mahogany?
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab233/jules42651/Woodworking/rails-stiles_zps2c1e522b.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

Trust your own judgement and proceed when you want to IF you want to. Glad to help.

[Jeff Duncan]

You've got the mahogany already, and you've got half the panel stock. I still say make up a single door with the oak to see if you like it. It's very little commitment in time and materials and will go a long way in helping you decide if it's going to be what you want.

good luck,
JeffD