words fail me ...

[Joe Bailey]

item # 181071852441

I guess this is to be expected following last weeks' 500+ dollar backsaw and late-model MF mitre box auction.

[Harold Burrell]

Oh, man...I was hoping nobody else would see it! This will probably drive the price up. Thanks alot! ;)

[Chris Griggs]

I initially assumed that he must be selling that to collectors and that there was something really collectable about it I wasn't aware of.. BUT he says right on it that its been restored (thats a collector no-no right?) and that it works great. Sounds like its being targeted towards user.... I'm going to put that on my watch list just to see if it ever actually sells. That's even nuttier than the 2k+ lot of MF planes that's been up for months.

[Scott M Perry]

I saw that $500 backsaw - what was up with that?

[Adam Petersen]

Free shipping. That's a nice afterthought....

[David Weaver]

Back when ebay was similar on listing fees and sellers fees, you didn't see any of this goofiness.

[Jim Foster]

Fellow must be trying to win a vacation :)

[David Keller NC]

If you guys are referring to the NOS Grove's saw as the "$500 backsaw", it didn't actually sell for that. E-bay has a funny quirk - it will list an item as "sold" (in this case, for $630), but won't actually let you know that it went for "best offer accepted" until you click on the specific item.

The explanation for the miter box is that it was set up and sharpened by azmica90405 (http://myworld.ebay.com/azmica90405/). I don't know who the person actually is (real name), but he has a tremendous reputation on the 'bay. Search for his "completed" listings for examples - the Disston Acme 120 typically brings about $150-$200 at MWTCA meets in unrestored bu undamaged condition.

[Paul Saffold]

But honey, I tried to sell it.

[Scott M Perry]

I was refering to a W. Cresson London Springs backsaw that recently went for $535 (330855921050). I'm guessing there's some historical significance to the saw, as it was in pretty ugly condition (at least to my newb eyes)...

[Gary Herrmann]

This is why I watch auctions on that site. They really make me wonder.

There is also a $499 yankee push drill on that site.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

If you look at the sellers completed listings, it looks like he's already tried to sell this before with no bids. The 608 he's selling looks like it's been listed 4 or 5 times with the same price and no bids. (I'd balk at that price too considering what a Lie Nielsen goes for.) I wonder how many times this will go up. I mean, if you're in no hurry to sell and just keep listing until a sucker comes along, I guess it works.

[Jim Koepke]

He says it all in the listing:


Very difficult to part with this tool.

So now he won't have to.

One way to "try" to sell your cake and eat it too.

jtk

[Augusto Orosco]

If you guys are referring to the NOS Grove's saw as the "$500 backsaw", it didn't actually sell for that. E-bay has a funny quirk - it will list an item as "sold" (in this case, for $630), but won't actually let you know that it went for "best offer accepted" until you click on the specific item.

The explanation for the miter box is that it was set up and sharpened by azmica90405 (http://myworld.ebay.com/azmica90405/). I don't know who the person actually is (real name), but he has a tremendous reputation on the 'bay. Search for his "completed" listings for examples - the Disston Acme 120 typically brings about $150-$200 at MWTCA meets in unrestored bu undamaged condition.

I believe his name is Michael Merlo (he is also a registered Creek member, but I don't believe has posted anything as of late), and indeed he seems to have a great reputation, that extends beyond EBay. I have never dealt with him personally, so everything I know is just from trolling the web. Seems that California is a great place to find good saw restorers, though (yeah, I am thinking of our own creeker, Mike Allen)!

[David Weaver]

The explanation for the miter box is that it was set up and sharpened by azmica90405 (http://myworld.ebay.com/azmica90405/). I don't know who the person actually is (real name), but he has a tremendous reputation on the 'bay. Search for his "completed" listings for examples - the Disston Acme 120 typically brings about $150-$200 at MWTCA meets in unrestored bu undamaged condition.

Yeah, Michael Merlo almost has a subculture of buyers following him around. That's just the nature of ebay and looking at past sales and feedback, though. I wonder how many of his buyers are in the states...they might be coming from places where tools are more scarce.

I know when I sold George's stones for him, it was a lost cause trying to find a buyer in the states for them, but as soon as I opened up the auctions to international, most of the stuff sold shortly after listing.

[Joe Bailey]

If you guys are referring to the NOS Grove's saw as the "$500 backsaw" ...

For the record, my reference to last week's absurdity was this: 121052808604

[David Keller NC]

I was refering to a W. Cresson London Springs backsaw that recently went for $535 (330855921050). I'm guessing there's some historical significance to the saw, as it was in pretty ugly condition (at least to my newb eyes)...

Yeah, I'll have to check references, but I think that was an 18th century or very early 19th century saw. While 18th century molding planes aren't uncommon, really old saws are rare.

[David Keller NC]

For the record, my reference to last week's absurdity was this: 121052808604

Yeah, that was amica's listing. His saws go for a very large premium over what an average antique saw goes for on the 'bay. Not that I would pay that much for a miter box....

[David Weaver]

That's an unusual saw, a lot different than the run of the mill late 1800s early 1900s atkins saws with a fat plate that still seem to bring $200+ when they're cleaned up. Those boggle my mind. A saw like that cresson saw isn't something you see in every flea market bucket of saws.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Yeah, Michael Merlo almost has a subculture of buyers following him around. That's just the nature of ebay...

Michael's subculture is built on the fact that he completely takes the risk out of buying on-line. Completely.
I live in Los Angeles, where hand tools are scarce. I had to buy three saw vises on-line to get one good one.
I really would rather buy once and pay a premium.

Disclaimer: although I've bid on several of Michael's saw, I've only won one. He has sharpened a 7' Bishop
bucking saw for me. That sucker is seriously sharp.

[Jim Matthews]

Considering what these things cost, in the wild, the joints should be vacuum tight - and hold together like Sashimono furniture, without glue.

This sort of thing is just ridiculous. I suspect much of this is driven by the same few dealers, online to inflate values.
If you want to see what these things are really worth, buy at the offered price and try to resell them...

[David Weaver]

Yeah, I understand the subculture and the aversion to risk. When a fat plated vintage saw costs a lot more than a new LN saw that has free support for you screwing up the saw and better steel, then I don't understand it as much.

It'd be different if we were talking about a $150 groves saw vs. a $125 LN saw, but a common disston #4 styled backsaw, which isn't much to write home about no matter how good the shape, that's where we get baffled.

I'm not faulting Michael, btw, if people paid me that much to redo a saw, I would do the same thing. I have the same view of saws as razors, though, if I can't get a saw refinished sharpened the way I want (with my hands), then I should probably go the disposable route instead.

The best saw vise I've used so far is sprung boards in a machinist vise, by the way. A lot is made of the vintage vises, that may have screws or other things cracked on them and jaws that are not that straight. People pigeonhole themselves into using that stuff or wanting it because of blog posts or retailers ads. I have two good ball joint saw vises, but it's rare that I use them.

Pete taran seems to have a similar following, folks get burned a few times for $20 or $50 and spend $400 on a $100 saw instead. It baffles a lot of us when you get down to the details of it. I, too, have gotten burned a couple of times on vintage planes and saws (I've bought most of my stuff online), but the balance of it is probably 2 good tools, one mediocre and one dud for every 4.

[Bill Houghton]

That's a very uncommon size, but you'd have to make a lot of picture frames to justify that kind of price. And, if you were making picture frames, you'd be better off with one of the Stanley 100 miter clamps/boxes, or a similar tool.

[Mike Cogswell]

What baffles me are all the people who pay over list price for a second-hand LN plane when you consider total price including the high S&H on the Bay compared to LN's S&H.

I've purchased several LN planes on the Bay, but you have to be very patient and wait until there's a good one at a reasonable price.

[David Weaver]

The LN thing is overseas buyers most of the time. They usually have to pay a much higher price for a new LN plane than we do, and the fact that it's used gets them out of paying VAT. One of george's stones that I sold went to australia via a proxy buyer in wisconsin. I didn't want to ship it overseas for fear that it would break, but it went overseas eventually anyway, so you can't even assume a high priced tool bought by a US buyer is actually staying in the US - only the proxy buyer knows where it's going, and in my case, the buyer had a US ship address and an Aussie billing address.

(i'm sure everyone who ever wanted a few bucks off of an LN plane has gone to ebay only to get surprised by where the auctions often go.).

[Mike Allen1010]

Michael's subculture is built on the fact that he completely takes the risk out of buying on-line. Completely.
I live in Los Angeles, where hand tools are scarce. I had to buy three saw vises on-line to get one good one.
I really would rather buy once and pay a premium.

Disclaimer: although I've bid on several of Michael's saw, I've only won one. He has sharpened a 7' Bishop
bucking saw for me. That sucker is seriously sharp.

I completely agree with Chuck and David --I have bought and sold more saws than I care to admit on the mega-auction site and when it comes to buying unrestored saws it's always an "adventure". I am routinely surprised by things not apparent in the pictures or description.

Probably 25% have kinks, bends or cracks in the plate that make them un-salvageable, another 25% have bends or kinks that can be corrected with smithing, 25% the plates are sound but the tote needs repair and 25% are solid in every way and just need to be cleaned up, sharpened and tuned.

I have restored/sharpened saws from Mike Merlo, Darryl Weir, Pete Tartan and other professionals. IMHO when it comes to restored/sharpened vintage saws you really do get what you pay for. Lots of people can file teeth, but to get all the elements - rake, fleam, gullets, spacing, set, toothline, etc. aligned in a coherent way and executed at the highest level isn't easy, and does make a noticeable difference in performance. Admittedly I am biased.

IMHO Mike, Darryl and Pete are among the best Saw doctors working today (not to say that there aren't others who are also good) - these guys start with the very best "raw" saws and are very, very good at sharpening, setting, tuning etc. If you check their websites and the mega-auction site their premium models typically go for $250 --$350. As someone who hasn't had a tablesaw for 15 years and does everything with hand saws, I think they're worth every penny-- again admittedly I have a huge bias. I also agree there are some prices that are just crazy, and I have no idea what's up with those.

I think David is on the right track with regard to foreign buyers who have limited access to American manufactured tools. I've sold more than a dozen Restored/sharpened saws to a guy in Singapore - I shipped them to an address in Florida, but they end up in Singapore.

All the best, Mike

[David Weaver]

And I have no idea what's up with those.



I don't know, either, but you certainly can't fault the guys for taking what people will pay. I probably said that twice already, but I want to make it clear that I'm not busting on them. And the international buyers, well, what else are they going to do? Most low priced items aren't even opened to overseas bidding because it's such a pain to try to ship something inexpensively from here if it's more than what fits in a small flat rate box.

[ian maybury]

I suppose that if it's thought through that buying a saw or a tool for functional use is one thing (the rationale is generally how much do i need to pay to deliver x capability), and the collector's mindset which is something else. (the collector's mindset may well be based just on what it is expected somebody else (the market) will pay for a tool, but may equally be very much driven by stuff bragging rights, must have it impulses and the like)

Two very different belief sets/calculations....

ian

[george wilson]

Years ago when I was in England,I saw a Leatherman tool for sale in a shop. It cost more than twice what it costs here(99 Pounds= about $167.00 Vs. $57.00 at Costco MANY years LATER). In the 90's in Italy,a Pepsi was $2.75 equivalent everywhere I went. (BTW,that's $5,000,000,000,000,000,000,75 lira!:)) The Italians seriously need to update their currency system.Are they on the Euro now? A little mosaic picture was listed at 3,000 lira. About 5" x 7". You are supposed to realize that it means 3,000,000 lira.

[Jim Koepke]

Most low priced items aren't even opened to overseas bidding because it's such a pain to try to ship something inexpensively from here if it's more than what fits in a small flat rate box.

Maybe it is just me being mister nice guy, but one of my Stanley screws to hold the reversible toe on a #98/99 side rabbet plane was bought by a guy in the Netherlands. My recollection is the whole transaction with shipping was less than $5.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Sure, but open a #4 to international buyers that will sell for $20, and fiddling with what it will go in and putting data in a customs form seems a little less useful.

Anything that can go first class is convenient. After that, it's expensive.

The trouble to ship a bigger item is worth it if someone is going to give you double or triple US bidders and the final value ends up in the hundreds.

(I just went through "bench planes" on ebay, looks like I'm a little out of touch with the prices!! But most are only opened up to the US, except the expensive stuff. That's too bad for international bidders - exclusive of canada, that is, I'd ship to canada for anything that I'd ship domestically. I see the guy with all of the millers falls planes still has them...haha.)