Blasphemy

[Brian Kent]

OK. I have a question that no one is probably allowed to ask.
I'm sorry.
Please forgive me.

Here goes:

What good is a hollow form? You can't put anything in it. If it is sitting on a shelf no one actually knows how thick the walls are. It would look the same if it was a solid piece of wood.

OK, go…

[curtis rosche]

Ive actually seen in a few resorts and hotels where they have hf looking peices, but they only have a hole from a forestner bit down the center.

[Ted Calver]

If it holds M&M's it's functional. If not, it's art.

[Roger Chandler]

Brian......I gave my mother a cherry HF with finial......and a large cherry bowl......both her and my dad were excited with the bowl......the hf was a couple months later.......she looked at it and said......that is pretty, but what is it for? I said.....it is art, mom.....you display it!

She uses the bowl regularly.....the hf is sitting on top of her hutch...."out of the way!" :eek: :D

[Ron Radliff]

Now you've gone and done it. You asked the question that is never to be asked.
Once the genie is out of the box, you can't put it back again.

[Richard Coers]

All things do not need a practical use. Art is about something that is just pleasing to look at and bring beauty to our lives. Wall thickness is about pride in workmanship.

[Scott Hackler]

Ok, I'll bite... Hollow forms are decorative art that in some fashion have evolved from functional jugs from antiquity. We decorate some with a finial as a lid and as the artistic stamp. A lot of turners do HFs and a lot of HFs look similar, some of us add our specific finial style to make it "ours". The thickness is usually done to impress other turners! Except for leaving it thick for carving or real thin for piercing.

[Rick Markham]

Pretty much by definition Art can serve no purpose other than to beautify or, depending on artist, "occupy" space (remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder,cough, maker.;)) So if it has a function is it really a hollow form?... That my friends IS the question... :D Functional items can be artfully made, they however, by the strictest definition aren't Art. Now this isn't how I feel on the subject, this is what they inundate you with when you are earning a fine arts degree. Obviously Art is all about stretching, bending and breaking all the rules you can. So maybe a better question is are all artist rule breakers? :eek:

[Sid Matheny]

It depends on who is looking at it!

Sid

[David DeCristoforo]

It's not a "hollow form" if it's not hollow. It's a "weed pot".

[Steve Schlumpf]

Brian - as one of those who turns hollow forms, I have had a few folks ask that question. You can try and offer an explanation that it is a piece of art... and you get a blank look. However, when I've told them that it serves the same purpose as a stature... then they understand... it is something for the birds to sit on!

[robert baccus]

All my woodturning buddies can feel the exact depth in a 12x12" HF to the nearest 1/000" in 2 seconds or less. Then the sound like a mother in law inspecting my shop. I feel a lot of the currently popular HF shapes evolved from Pueblo pots. Or maybe Hobby House????

[robert baccus]

A lady at a show once asked me if she could put tuns salad in my very nice bowl. I replied that for a large check she could deposit her salad and a few other things in my bowl. No sale but worth every penny.

[Chip Sutherland]

It's either an art piece or it is a vase for dried/plastic flowers. I also like refer to them as 'sold'. I can sell a HF for a higher price than bowls which are generally viewed as utilitarian in use which limits the price folks (women) will pay. It's counter-intuitive that the more useful is less valuable while the less useful is more valuable.

[Reed Gray]

I always thought hollow forms were dust collectors.... Not sure who said that one.

If it don't hold soup, it's art. Anthony Yak over on Woodnet forums.

I did make some weed post once upon a time, and labeled them as such when they were for sale. Oh, the comments this old hippy got......

robo hippy

[robert baccus]

Anyone priced those hand coil turned handrubbed authentic wood fired authentic reservation authenic Zune clay pots lately. Would you cook beans over a wood fire in yours. Get a grip yeah.

[robert baccus]

Might be a good spitoon market in Vidor Tx maybe.

[Aric Krueger]

Not all may agree with this either, but here goes:


It depends what you define as a “hollow form”. Many turners consider any bowl that has an opening that is smaller than its largest internal diameter, technically speaking, a “hollow form”. Forms such as this are useful for candy, nuts, spare change or chip dips.

A taller form along these lines might be a honey pot with a lid. If it has a stem and foot with no lid, it may be a goblet.

Even taller, with a very small opening and lid, can be used to hold water, decant wine or salad dressing. This type of form is popular when made of exquisitely figured or burl wood to hold the cremated ashes of the dearly departed. A cremation urn. (See John Keeton’s home page: He makes nice ones!) http://johnkeeton.com/johnkeeton_006.htm
((That’s how I’m going. I think it’s appropriate…for a woodturner))

Some are created simply to be art; visual and tactile art. The shape, size, colors, patterns and finial may be aesthetically pleasing. If pleasing enough, a person may just have to pick it up. When they do, they exclaim, “ Oh my! It’s so light! It’s not only beautiful, it’s hollow! I wonder how that was done?!”


All that being said, some people don’t like hollow forms for the reason you mentioned; you can’t see how it’s made or the wood grain on the inside. It seems counter-intuitive to some woodturners.


There is no right or wrong answer. It all depends on your personal philosophy about art, form and function. Some people like ‘em, some people don’t.

My philosophy..
There is such a thing as functional art (although not seen much is this modern day of fast, cheap manufacturing), however, not all art is functional. As woodturners, most of what we make is considered by many to be art; even the simplest bowl. The bowl, however, is also functional.

ok, ...now I'm just rambling.....back to my lathe.:)

[Justin Stephen]

A lady at a show once asked me if she could put tuns salad in my very nice bowl. I replied that for a large check she could deposit her salad and a few other things in my bowl. No sale but worth every penny.

That's because the same lady can walk into Target and buy a mass-produced Asian wooden bowl for $10. Is yours nicer? No doubt, but it is still going to be consciously or sub-consciously compared to the Target bowl. The same thing doesn't happen with hollow forms. :)

[J.D.Redwine]

Placed strategically around the home these forms may dramatically reduce the need to dust.

[Hayes Rutherford]

Brian, the good thing about hollow forms is they usually don't crack like a solid form would. Wooden vessels that don't hold anything will always remain controversial. That being said, the biggest success among hobby woodturners is to trade their $5,000 hollow form for another turners $5,0000 form.

[Thom Sturgill]

And nobody has mentioned the one use that HFs are often put to - cremation urns, both for humans and pets.

As to why hollow (and thin) if it is just to be looked at and has a finial, I always hand one to guests who are looking at my turnings and they are usually surprised at how light they are, since they seem to expect them to be solid.

[Jamie Buxton]

Okay, so if we say hollow forms are mostly about art -- about making stuff just because it is beautiful -- why is it so much more common among turners than among other woodworkers? In the furniture world, there's Krenov's fascination with wall cabinets -- pieces that really aren't very practical at all. And there's Wendell Castel, who's really doing sculpture that happens to be made from wood. But that's about it. Put it this way... SMC's Turning forum is filled with objects that only beautiful, but the flatwork forum never ever has anything that's only beautiful. Why is this?

[Sean Hughto]

There have long been wood artists that make flat work that is not funcitonal. I used to see it all the time in Woodwork magazine. Chairs that one could not sit on and so forth. It's just a form of sculpture.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally I'm partial to bowls - but not because they're functional, only because you can see the inside and they're more fun for me to turn.

A lot of flatworld work is about envisioning a project and then finding/making wood conform to it.

In turning, it seems to be the opposite: we find the good wood, then figure out what we can do with it. Turning is more about revealing a 'stump's' inner beauty - even at the sacrifice of function.

Most of my bowls are in fact not utility; they're too high or too narrow, or have holes in them. There's just simply too much beautiful wood out there for it all to become popcorn bowls.

HF posts spawn some of the most interesting and subtle conversations about shape and color too.

[Richard Coers]

Okay, so if we say hollow forms are mostly about art -- about making stuff just because it is beautiful -- why is it so much more common among turners than among other woodworkers? In the furniture world, there's Krenov's fascination with wall cabinets -- pieces that really aren't very practical at all. And there's Wendell Castel, who's really doing sculpture that happens to be made from wood. But that's about it. Put it this way... SMC's Turning forum is filled with objects that only beautiful, but the flatwork forum never ever has anything that's only beautiful. Why is this?

You're not looking in the right places if you think flat woodworkers only make functional pieces.

[John Coloccia]

If it's not hollow, it doesn't break when you drop it, and generally things sell for much less if they don't break when you drop them. For example:

expensive and breaks when you drop it:
- computer
- cuckoo clock
- full bottle of port (don't ask I how I know this, and yes...I OCCASIONALLY miss)
- airplane

inexpensive and doesn't break when you drop it
- free calendar from your insurance agent
- box of frozen hot pockets
- socks
- Stick of deodorant...unless you use the fancy shmancy clicky ones that dispense the cream through the little holes, because those can break if you drop them....but they're also more expensive...

I hope that helps. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to work on my new paper mache and stained glass guitar model. $$$ :D

[Richard Madden]

This brings to mind a comment made on another forum, where the turner was asked "what's it for?", referring to a hollow form or urn type vessel. The turners reply? "it's to put the ashes of dumb$&#**like you that have to ask". While I admit to being asked that question myself, I stick to the "it's art" type comment.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

What?!?!? Hollow forms are art? Sigh. I just bought hollowing gear.

[mark ravensdale]

One of the first things I do with other peoples hollow form work is pick it up and see how light it is, they look fat and heavy then you pick them up and think wow that's light then it gives me a clue to the skill of the turner who made it.

[Victor Robinson]

Brian, thank you for asking the questions that need to be asked. The tough questions. You're making 'em sweat.

[Wally Dickerman]

Whoa, wait a minute.....probably the most popular HF's are copies of SW Indian pottery. ALL SW pottery was functional. Think about it. It you were going to carry water for a distance you would want a closed form vessel so the water wouldn't slosh out. The most closed forms were the seed pots. The openings were just the right size for a single squash seed. Less than a half inch. They filled the pot for next years seeds. Mice couldn't get at the seeds. When planting time came, they broke the pot. For that reason there are very few intact seed pots in existance.

If you want to turn a seed pot do it by turning two bowls and gluing them together. Been a long time since I've done that. I'm going to try it again soon.....if you want to make the seed pot "functional", put some beans in it:)

[Michael Kellough]

If you love looking at the figure and grain of wood (and don't forget the spalting patterns) there is no better form than a sphere. But, a solid wood sphere is heavy and liable to split as it dries. Hollowing solves both those problems. Also, a sphere is liable to roll off the table so it helps to shape it a little to keep it still.

I'm a beginner and haven't turned anything but the love of wood has drawn me to this craft.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

You've heard a lot so here is my take. A hollow form is something that when successfully finished, I get great joy from having made. The more dramatic the wood and the smaller the hole, the greater the joy and sense of accomplishment. They don't have to be large, in fact some of my favorite are fist sized and fit easily into the palm of my hand but come from a magnificent piece of wood. I love seeing them in groups like grapes in a cluster. I particularly enjoy hollow forms that are so thin they feel almost weightless. What are they for? They are a treat to the senses.
faust

[Justin Stephen]

If it holds M&M's it's functional. If not, it's art.

That's why I like Binh Pho's work so much. His piercing holes are often so small, the M&Ms don't fall out.

[Bob Coates]

Wally, how about turning two bowl and putting something inside larger than the hole? Something to drive people nuts... :)

[George Overpeck]

I've been telling potential buyers (OK, they probably aren't if they are asking) that HFs are a way to show how good their taste is. Which, in a way, is right- an owner is following the tastes of an artist who has to be somewhat accomplished to produce a good HF. I find in my area that there is sometimes a need to educate people about the artistic side of turning.

A lot of the HFs I've sold have had voids which displayed the wall thickness. Everyone who picks one up is fascinated - the first question is "how" and the unspoken one is not exactly "what for" but "why". I let on that it is a slightly obsessive pursuit that includes a lot of failures and incremental success, and people kind of get it.

Another reason - to impress other woodturners. If you're selling and a potential customer hears another turner admiring your work it works in your favor.

[robert baccus]

Wally, another reason for the seedbowl shape is that it is impossible to spill seeds. You can actually throw it across the garden and the spin keeps the seed to the outside. Been spending too much time under the cottonwood tree in Taos lately. I think the fact that there is no inside sanding is the reason I do HF, vases. Also use light weight woods and keep it thin as far as a finger is long.

[Wally Dickerman]

Wally, how about turning two bowl and putting something inside larger than the hole? Something to drive people nuts... :)

Years ago I watched the Aussie turner Vic wood turn a seed pot. He "borrowed" a quarter from someone in the audience. It ended up in the pot....I don't know if he reimbursed the guy or not.

[Brian Kent]

Thanks everybody for your good words. That was so much more fun than if I has just asked, "Hey everybody should I glue this together or make a bowl with a lid?"