Observations on Euro style sliding saws

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Because I've been asked multiple times in the last week in other threads, I thought it better to start a thread dedicated to this subject. There is a lot of misinformation, conjecture and pure guesses floating around out there on the subject of slider saws. I think a thread where us owners or users could simply post our experiences, why we made the decision, etc would be helpful to some. Many people seem to have never even seen one in captivity, so basic stuff is great, like how do you rip? Pics would be useful if you feel so inclined.

I know it has been touched on before, but there are always new people here that want to know, and new questions.

[Jim Foster]

+1 on this topic, really like to know more about switching to a European saw, what was great about it, what was a surprise... Dust collection capabilities for specific saws.

[J.R. Rutter]

On a short stroke slider - like 50": Is there a crosscut fence design that will let you slide the crossbar out of the way for ripping, then move it back without losing calibration? Not interested in removing a fence completely...

[Mike Heidrick]

For the owners - here are some questions I have....

I want to know about the working around/standing around a long slider or the trade off of having a short feeder.

I want to know about ripping and how you do it, more importantly the second rip cut. I understand straight line ripping on the slider. Then do you set it up against the fence for the second cut? If so how are you continuing the cut through the blade after the board seperates from what is on the fence - ? push stick, feeder, what?

We really need video how to guides on this to show how you can stand so far away from the blade. Does your table and accessories get in the way?

I want to hear about all the setup time and air jigs many have for their saws. Also talk about access to power on and off buttons and mods you have done to enable that to be safer. In lesser slider saws (Hammer/500 series) are the buttons standard on the sliding table ends?
Did you add those? Any issues with where those are? Did you add quick off paddles of any kind? Estops?

I want to know why you bought one rather than just using a tracksaw? I can see guys who deal with sheet goods all the time. For the hardwood only guys why did you do this?

Do you own a NA tablesaw too for ripping or dados?

Have you ever been cut on your slider?

I also have never seen a slider manufacturer talk about how safe their saw is. Why is that?

What does a hammer with a big sliding table cost?

What does a 700 series with a big sliding table cost?

[Mike Heidrick]

JR - on my short shaper slider table there are flip up blocks that allow you to rotate the crosscut fence out of the way and then return it back to 90 degrees. The rotating mechanism has detens for angles other than 90 as well. Between the two you can get most any angle repeatable.

[David Kumm]

I have a Rockwell 12-14, Hammond trim saw-18" crosscut, 78" slider, and 120" slider. I have the room - kind of- and like all but would have a tough time with only one. The crosscut fence on a short slider is often in the way. You want to get used to positioning the fence in the back position so at least short-3ft or so pieces don't need fence removal. The ability to remove and replace the fence at exactly where it needs to go is huge. A deal breaker when buying. The fence is seldom an issue with a long slider. I modified a short table for the front with a flip up positioner long long rips. Many saws have accessories so when you put a board that has been straight line ripped against the back fence you can flip up a stop in front as a reference and then rip from the slider side. Mac Campshure has some good videos on www.airtightclamps.com showing sheet goods and ripping using a big slider and his pneumatic clamps. His clamps are sweet. A long slider is difficult to rip with the traditional fence- at least to me. Others have gotten used to it. I haven't had to and still run over to the regular saw when I need a quick rip. I keep about four grrippers on the saw so I don't need to fiddle with them to fit- one is always ready. I put my own on off buttons on the slider as my older saws didn't have them. Between Mc Master Carr and ebay it costs under $100 to add a convenient switch.

If you are space challenged it is a pain to squeeze around a slider you don't have room for and you do need room- not only front to back but left of the saw for crosscutting. My little Hammond is a go to saw when just doing furniture work. Only cuts at 90 but dead on and doesn't take up much room. I can use a dado on the 78" slider but it requires some readjustment of the fence, and some other minor fiddling. I use the slider dado for cabinets but often go to the Rockwell and leave the dado in. Big tables and most carcasses and drawers reference just fine off the rip fence. If I had to give one saw up it would be the 78" slider but it also has a shaper and is handy for that reason.

Hammer machines are great for the price although I'd buy a used long slider before a long Hammer. You want weight and strength when dealing with sheet goods. At least the Felder and MM levels. Used sliders are all over the place and so cheap I'd look at them. Felder K975, SCMI SI16, 3200, 320, S300, Casadei K3000-3200, Casolin, Martin, etc. Altendorf you need to watch for the one with phenolic ways and the ones from China. A good used commercial saw can be had for 4-6K fairly easily. Expect another 500-1000 for stuff you want to fix or improve. New Chinese sliders-Biesse, Oliver, etc are all made at a plant owned by Biesse and go for about 12K. New SCMI will be in the 14-15K range same as the 900 Felder series. The 700 will be around 10-12 but others will know better as I'm more of a used guy. Dave

[ian maybury]

Mentioned on the other thread - but there's a bit of set up in a slider. It's maybe wise unless you're good at that stuff to make sure that whatever one you buy is likely to come accurately set up.

ian

[Steve Milito]

Are there videos that demonstrate how to use a slider, at least the things that are different from a conventional TS?

[Jeff Monson]

Are there videos that demonstrate how to use a slider, at least the things that are different from a conventional TS?

There are a couple videos on the Felder site that demonstrate the x-roll slider. You can get some basics concepts from the video on how they work, plus different setups for different operations.

[Hank Hill]

I also have never seen a slider manufacturer talk about how safe their saw is. Why is that?

What does a hammer with a big sliding table cost?

What does a 700 series with a big sliding table cost?
The Felder salesmen talk about safety in a big way. It's one of the first things they generally mention if you call and ask about Hammer machines, mainly because they're really competiting against SawStop as much as they are other sliders.

A Hammer with a big slider, the K4 (which is designed to compete against Mini-Max), has a price of $9500 before discounts + shipping and accesssories. The Felder K700 Professional ends up at $12000 with the large slider, again before discounts and shipping. Accessories end up at $500 to $2000 very quickly.

[Mark Bolton]

This topic has been covered extensively and in extreme detail numerous times and is in the archives.

Other that the space constraints there is little we ever go to a conventional saw for. The slider is the workhorse in the shop. Breaking down sheet goods, straight lining hardwoods, glue line rips, dados, all shine on a slider. In some areas you adjust your work to accommodate its advanced capabilities but its a pretty minimal adjustment and the safety is head and shoulders above.

[James Baker SD]

See post #11 in this thread. There are listed safety features of a slider. European Table Saw vs Conventional Table Saw like Saw Stop (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181703-European-Table-Saw-vs-Conventional-Table-Saw-like-Saw-Stop)

[Bill Neely]

I have a Laguna TSS, probably the runt of the litter but it works well for me, I bought it used at a very reasonable price - even better. The saw can do anything a conventional saw can do and safer. I made a ripping jig (someone posted it here on SMC) that clamps to the slider and makes ripping multiple pieces of something like rails and stiles easy, safe and fast.

With the TSS the accessory 'positive miter stop table' is a must, the original setup isn't robust so when removing and replacing the cc fence it can be knocked out of square easily. The accessory table makes that problem disappear plus you get presets for angle cuts. The old style TSS was equipped with a Beis style fence that was very heavy and clunky, I replaced mine with a modified Unifence. Works better for me.

I've cut the heads off Quick-Grip clamps and welded on pieces of 1 1/4" by 5/16" bar that slides into the slots on the slider, also used the same stock to make other clamping jigs. It really speeds things up.

Positives:

Dust collection is good with a shrouded blade (scoring blade is also shrouded) and overhead dust collection through the guard.

Easy to change blades, drop a pin in to lock the arbor, move the slider back to expose the blade area, unclip the hinged part of the blade guard and change the plate - same routine for the scoring blade.

With a 5/8" arbor runs standard dado set, 10 or 12 inch tooling of your choice.

Cons:

Riving knife is hard to set up, I very seldom remove it so I don't use the dado often.

Having to spend an extra 378 bucks to get an accurate cc fence is a little over the top.

Overall I would never consider going back to a conventional tablesaw, a slider simply will do so much more, faster with more accuracy.

[Stephen Cherry]

One aspect of the sliding saw that cannot be overstated it the relative safety. In normal use, your hands are nowhere near the blade. There is usually a riving knife, so kickback is pretty hard to do, there is real dust collection above and below the blade.

One typical critisism is that you can't really stand right in front of the blade when you rip, BUT of all the places you could stand, that is the last place to be. Much safer to be out of the "line of fire".

[Erik Loza]

............

[Steve Rozmiarek]

To start, I have a Felder CF 741. It is a combo machine, which is basically the K 700 Professional saw/shaper bolted to the AD 741 jointer/planer. The saw table is changed a bit to use the jointer surface as the table. It has the 2500mm sliding table, which is a bit over 8'. I can rip a full sheet of ply using the carriage. It also has the 2600mm (102") crosscut fence and outrigger. That gives capacity to crosscut a sheet of ply anywhere you want. The saw has a 7.5hp motor and a belt driven scoring blade. I use 12" Forrest blades mostly. I have a few Felder branded, which are Leitz, that are also good, but prefer Forrest.

The machine includes a nice shaper, which pops up right behind the saw blade. This lets you use the sliding table to on the shaper, which is a great feature for many things. Raising panels or tenoning for example. The shaper has easily interchangable spindles and is powered by a separate 7.5hp motor. I have three, one common metric and the common standards. Speed is easily adjusted by the turn of a dial. I have the power feeder that swings up, and can be used over the saw, shaper or jointer.

The jointer/planer is 410mm (16.1"). Mine has four straight knives. The spiral cutter was not avalible until a week or so after I bought my machine, or I would have bought it. There is nothing wrong with the straight cutters, just would have liked to try the spiral. The jointer/planer is powered by a third 7.5hp motor. I like to swing the feeder over the jointer outfeed bed and use it to face joint. It makes a job that gives me the hebejebees into something fun. I did buy the mortising table.

Changeover from jointer to planer takes about 30 seconds, the power height adjust makes it easy. You can run one motor at a time, and you have to select which. The motors all have braking that stop them very quickly. The saw blade stops in about 3 seconds, a big shaper head takes longer.

Several things I've noticed in operating this, it radically changed my work style. I am much faster now than with American style separates but it forces you to think a bit to avoid unnecessary changeovers. If you are not ok with that, you will probably not like a combo machine. One constant question I see deals with ripping. Having the sliding table doesn't necessarily change how you rip, if you don't want it too. You can use the fence just like a unisaw if you want. What it does do though, is give you the option of having the board ride on the slider instead. Most of the time I use a combo of that. I let the table float, and use the rip fence as a guide. The table just slides along with the board until the end of the cut, and I put a little down pressure on the board to make sure it stays in place on the table as we finish passing the blade. You can also clamp to the table, or use an edging shoe to hold the front end. The difference between a slider and regular saw, is only that you don't have to use the rip fence. Think of it as the ultimate taper jig at times.

Most of my work is solid wood, but I bought the machine to handle ply sheets too. My shop is a standard 2 car garage, and the Felder sits at an angle in the middle of the room. Another misconception is how much space they take up. Yes, sliding an 8' long piece of ply will move the table 16', and you need a few extra feet behind it to stand. However, you can get its footprint down to 6 1/2' wide, and 8' long at rest. The outrigger comes off easily. I leave mine on most of the time, but to swing it full stroke, I have to wheel a couple portable tools out of the way. I can't imagine why I'd would want a shorter table, but I know some do, for good reasons.

If I did it over, I would have bought it sooner. It's that good. I am building a new shop, and with the more space, I can see how having the jointer/planer separate from the saw/shaper would be beneficial. I would however buy the exact same machines. I have used the mortising table several times, and it is quite frankly, kind of a pain to set up. I would buy a separate mortiser rather than the add on. Dominos changed the game on loose tenons honestly.

Something to be aware of, Felder machine accessories which there are a bunch of, are not cheap. Nothing about it is I guess. They are usually Aigner made components and they may be sourced else where. Leitz makes a bunch of Felders tooling. This is all top notch stuff, and I bring it up to point out that a Felder fence is kind of like a Beismeyer and clones here. It interchanges with many other manufacturers products, and is industry standard components. Blades and such are easy to source.

I didn't want to write a book, sorry, hope that answers some of the questions. I started typing this earlier, so the actual experts have probably already done a better job than me. :)

[Charlie Watson]

I'm one who is seriously considering a Hammer. Here is the quote I received this morning on their big saw:

Options included on the K3W 78/48
------------------------------------------------------
003 1 x 230V
005 60 Hz
019A 4.0 PS (3.0) kW
74 Standard scoring unit
77 Cutting and table extension 1250 mm
87 Professional rip fence with a rip capacity 49 inches
82 Removable flange for Dado blade
132Z Sliding table 2000 mm .... 79"
160 Outrigger table 1100
166 Crosscut fence 1300 mm ... machine also comes with the shorter miter fence like seen on the other three us models.
21 03.07.25080 TCT flat-trapezoidal tooth saw blade ............. at no extra charge
22 03.09.08020 Adjustable TCT scoring saw blade D=80 ..... at no extra charge
all above would be part of the special price 4999.00

[Erik Loza]

Also talk about access to power on and off buttons... are the buttons standard on the sliding table ends?... I also have never seen a slider manufacturer talk about how safe their saw is. Why is that?


Mike interesting questions...

Regarding the remote-start/stop buttons on the slider, there is a CE requirement that a physical cable NOT be used in these cases. The reason being that a cable sending the "stop" signal could theoretically be sheared by the sliding table if its shielding (however you might do that...) were to fail and allow the wire to become exposed to the slider guideways, thus preventing you from shutting off the saw. That is why every remote-start switch you see that is OEM from one of us uses a battery-powered RF transmitter to send the start/stop signal to the main relays.

On that note, I personally feel that having a remote-start switch on your slider, even a 10.5'er, is not really needed. Reason being that I believe it is both safer and faster to just start the saw, leave it running as you process the panel or whatever, then shut off the machine when you are all done. I know folks have put boxes with remote start/stop switches on our machines, that I have seen connected by a bungee cable (plenty safe, I think), but again, it is my opinion that you do not really need this feature. Also, your single-phase motor will last a lot longer if you are not stopping and re-starting it all the time.

Regarding the "why don't mfrs talk about how safe their sliders are?" question, my response would be that in Europe, the number of safety criteria that a machinery or tooling manufacturer must comply with simply in order to sell a machine is so stringent that in their minds, it is probably just a given that "the machine is designed to do things as safely as possible", if that makes any sense. For example, the dado cut is forbidden in Europe, all shaper tooling must be stamped as to whether or not a human hand can pass the wood over it or not, etc.

Just my thoughts,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Erik Loza]

+1 on this topic, really like to know more about switching to a European saw, what was great about it, what was a surprise... Dust collection capabilities for specific saws.

Jim, one thing you will find with Euro machinery is that requirements like dust extraction volume are called out by the manufacturer. At least ours are. Also, because there is so much emphasis there on working clean, the design of the dust collection, or ducting, inside the machine chassis tends to be very efficient. I don't want to jack this thread with a bunch of informercial type photos but if you are interested in talking more about this, PM me.


On a short stroke slider - like 50": Is there a crosscut fence design that will let you slide the crossbar out of the way for ripping, then move it back without losing calibration? Not interested in removing a fence completely...

JR, if you can post a picture of the crosscut fence (and outrigger, if you have one) that you are using now, I might have some ideas on that.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Aeschliman]

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm really confused about ripping on a true slider.

The straight-line rip is simple to understand. Obviously this is a huge benefit of a slider. But as another poster said, what about the second rip cut (the one parallel to the straight-line rip)?

I watched the video posted earlier (the one with the air clamps). I understand how you can rip two parallel sides on a plywood sheet- this is a case where your shorter dimension, which you cut at 90 degrees to the straight-line rip, is still long enough to get a good reference edge against the fence. If the cross cut is 90 degrees to the straight line rip, and if the second rip cut is 90 degrees to the freshly cut cross-cut side, then of course it stands to reason that the second rip cut will be parallel to the first rip cut.

But can somebody please explain to me how you would make the second rip cut an 8 foot long, 8 inch wide piece of 8/4 hardwood without using the rip fence? Are there jigs for the sliding table that somehow ensures that you get a parallel rip cut?

I see safety touted as a huge benefit of these saws, but the most dangerous cuts in terms of amputations are rip cuts (where your hands are closer to the blade). If you have to use the rip fence in this case, how is a slider in any way safer or as safe as a sawstop in terms of amputations?

I love the idea of sliders, but I can't get past this issue. I keep seeing posts where people say sliders are just as safe as sawstops, but I don't understand how that claim is possible.

[Hank Hill]

But can somebody please explain to me how you would make the second rip cut an 8 foot long, 8 inch wide piece of 8/4 hardwood without using the rip fence? Are there jigs for the sliding table that somehow ensures that you get a parallel rip cut?
From my research, the people that want to rip again on the slider and ensure that they are parallel end up using the flip stops on high end saw where the accuracy is really that good you can get away with it. On the cheaper sliders, I've seen jigs made that involve a movable point on the slider and one flip stop. Think like a finger midway down the board.

[Erik Loza]

Peter, I would use the the slider in conjunction with the rip fence, as a "bump-stop". In other words, unlike a regular cabinet saw, where you would be applying a lot of pressure against the rip fence for the second cut, I would just set the slider rip fence to whatever width I wanted, then slide the slab over until it touched, then clamp it down, then pass the wagon through its stroke and make the cut. he difference being that the wagon (sliding table) is doing the work, as opposed to the operator doing the work by forcing the slab against the rip fence, a-la a jointer fence.

Does that make sense?

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Peter Aeschliman]

One constant question I see deals with ripping. Having the sliding table doesn't necessarily change how you rip, if you don't want it too. You can use the fence just like a unisaw if you want. What it does do though, is give you the option of having the board ride on the slider instead. Most of the time I use a combo of that. I let the table float, and use the rip fence as a guide. The table just slides along with the board until the end of the cut, and I put a little down pressure on the board to make sure it stays in place on the table as we finish passing the blade. You can also clamp to the table, or use an edging shoe to hold the front end. The difference between a slider and regular saw, is only that you don't have to use the rip fence. Think of it as the ultimate taper jig at times.

By the way Steve, thanks for starting this thread. I saw your comment in the sawstop thread and your point was well taken. Hence why I'm asking.

Having re-read your post since my last post in this thread, I think the answer to my question about the parallel rip cut might lie in this paragraph.

Are you saying that you position the rip fence such that you can ride the straight-line ripped edge along the rip fence, but you clamp the waste side of the board down to the sliding table, using the sliding table to push the workpiece through the blade?

Did I understand that correctly? What do you do when you only want to take, say, half an inch off of the width of the board? I know I have to be missing something here. I'm truly not trying to be obstinate, I just want to understand.

[Erik Loza]

I am rummaging through my Photobucket right now for relevant photos. These are from my colleague, Sam's, shop. No particular order, please bear with.

You could also flip the piece and use a parallel fence...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/012LongRip.jpg

The "bump-stop" thing I mentioned...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/PanelRiponslider.jpg

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[David Kumm]

As Erik said, you can slide the rip fence forward and load the board against it but clamps are really comforting. I try to set the rip fence as exact as I can with .001 or right on if I can get it toe out. Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Sorry, I was writing my second post at the same time as the previous two posters.

Erik, I think your answer was coming to me at the same time you were writing your response. Makes total sense. I'm still confused about situations where you only have a little bit of waste on the slider side of the blade. How do you clamp the work piece down in that case?

Again, I love the idea of a slider. Love it. I'm just trying to understand the safety aspect during rip cuts.

[Mike Heidrick]

Erik, at the half way point through the blade, when the cut is complete, how are you continuing the right side (fence side) wood through the cut and where are you standing at that point? Are you crossing over the blade if you are on the side of the truck?

Also is the piece against the fence the waste or the piece you are cutting?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, I think your answer was coming to me at the same time you were writing your response. Makes total sense. I'm still confused about situations where you only have a little bit of waste on the slider side of the blade. How do you clamp the work piece down in that case? Would the cut you are thinking of be the first rip or the second (parallel) one?


Erik, at the half way point through the blade, when the cut is complete, how are you continuing the right side (fence side) wood through the cut and where are you standing at that point? Are you crossing over the blade if you are on the side of the truck?

Also is the piece against the fence the waste or the piece you are cutting?

Mike, you would be standing to the left of the sliding table. Always to the left of the slider, regardless of what kind of cut. Here is video showing that cut (actually, I cringe while I watch it, since the blade sounds terrible and I sort of have no idea what the guy is doing with his "test cuts", but you will see how to walk along with the piece)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXX2a90BJ4k

In answer to your second question, in that cut in the photo, the outboard, or left side, is the offcut. The slider is doing the work witht he rip fence (it is actually a modified "shorty" rip fence..) is just being used as a repetitious stop for mutiple panels to be cut to the same dimensions. This is a common technique in the panel processing industry.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Heidrick]

That guy needs to try cutting wood on a 5hp sawstop LOL!! He bogged that saw all the way down!!

The flipping up wood is what I was talking about. I see now its either that or you pull it towards you around the guard (or pull the off cut past and pull it over).

[David Kumm]

Erik, is that a standard MM parallel fence? Nice. I have a clamp base from my pneumatic clamp that I milled to accept an extrusion with a flip stop. Mac Campshure make one with a bearing so it slides very smoothly. Set the stop and the clamp at the same time for ripping. I like yours though. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Anyone ever put a ball screw and a servo motor/drive on one of those MM and just automate the sliding??

That has to be a crazy money saw too right??!! Those Proscales by themselves are more than a 1023 LOL and that is no fence attached to them. This is no Hammer slider LOL.

[David Kumm]

Anyone ever put a ball screw and a servo motor/drive on one of those MM and just automate the sliding??

That has to be a crazy money saw too right??!! Those Proscales by themselves are more than a 1023 LOL and that is no fence attached to them. This is no Hammer slider LOL.

The Elite S is the big dog of the combo line. That's the heaviest one made isn't it Erik? Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Would the cut you are thinking of be the first rip or the second (parallel) one?

I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

[David Kumm]

Peter, that is where I'd use the parallel stop you see in the picture. Mine is different but the concept is the same. Clamps are a big deal here. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

Peter, why would you not set the bump to 3/8 and put the 5.5 on the slider's truck?

[mreza Salav]

Peter, why would you not set the bump to 3/8 and put the 5.5 on the slider's truck?

sorry for jumping in here (I have been watching/reading this as I always had similar questions like Peter):
To make the matter more complicated suppose that 6" wide board is only 3" wide (or something like that) and you want to rip it in the middle into half. This is the kind of a rip cut where things become dangerous on a traditional cabinet saw. How can you do this safely on a slider? (again this is a genuine question). thanks

[David Kumm]

sorry for jumping in here (I have been watching/reading this as I always had similar questions like Peter):
To make the matter more complicated suppose that 6" wide board is only 3" wide (or something like that) and you want to rip it in the middle into half. This is the kind of a rip cut where things become dangerous on a traditional cabinet saw. How can you do this safely on a slider? (again this is a genuine question). thanks

I have eccentric clamps in the T slot for that rip- front and back. They should be ordered with a slider. Pneumatic are even better. I like the grrripper for the regular saw. I never liked the push stick thing. Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter, why would you not set the bump to 3/8 and put the 5.5 on the slider's truck?


Is the "bump" the blue aluminum incra look-alike fence-looking doo-hickey in Erik's first picture?

I looked at that for a while. It looks like there's a stop on the cross cut fence and the bump, which together give you the contact area needed. But how do you go about making sure that those two contact points are perfectly in line with each other such that they are parallel with the blade? Is it difficult to set the cut width each time you want to make a parallel rip cut?

EDIT: alright sorry, I'm being dense. you're saying why not set the rip fence so that it's 3/8" away from the blade and put the keeper side on the slider. duh. That makes sense.

[Kelby Van Patten]

I have a Laguna 6' Pro slider. I love it. Here are my thoughts on sliders in general and on my saw in particular.

1. Safety advantages

* Cross-cutting sheet goods: There is no safe way to do this on a regular tablesaw. On a slider, you get a perfect cut with no risk.
* Ripping a straight edge on a board that doesn't already have one. Again, there's no safe way to do this on a regular tablesaw.
* High-quality riving knife.
* Dust collection is relatively good. Under the table, the blade is surrounded by a nice shroud. Overhead, I have added dust collection that really makes a huge difference.
* Motor does not start when blade shroud is open, ensuring there is no risk of motor starting when you are changing the blade.

2. Simplicity

* Cross cutting long boards: I can cross-cut a long board with 8' of material supported to the left of the blade. Again, there's no good way to do this on a regular tablesaw.
* Eliminating tearout: The scoring blade makes it easy to get a perfectly clean cross-cut on expensive plywood.

3. Other Nice Features
* An extra set of on/off switches in the slider handle makes it easy to turn the machine on and off when there is a large piece of plywood on it that make it a challenge to reach the buttons on the cabinet.
* Micro-adjust on the rip fence is very nice.
* The cross-cut fence has extremely nice flip-stops, making repeated cuts extremely accurate.

Addressing Peter's question, the simple answer is that once you have a straight edge on one side, ripping a parallel edge on the other side is exactly what a rip fence is for (hence the name "rip fence"). It's the one thing a standard tablesaw does really well. A slider does it equally well, and most come with a very nice rip fence (mine did). It's easier to rip large sheet goods on the slider because the sliding table provides a lot of additional support to the left of the blade. If I'm ripping wide material, I'll clamp it to the sliding table as I rip. For material that is not so wide, I just lock the sliding table in place and rip away.

There are two potential downsides to the slider. One is that you have to adjust your stance when you rip. Not much, and it's not a big deal, but people who don't handle change well might not like it. Second is that a lot of aftermarket accessories are designed to fit standard tablesaws, and it may take some work to adapt them to a Euro style saw.

One more caveat is that many Euro sliders do not play nicely with Dado blades. Mine does, but some others don't.

[Erik Loza]

Anyone ever put a ball screw and a servo motor/drive on one of those MM and just automate the sliding??

Actually, some some of the bigger SCMI saws have motor-assisted travel for the slider. I'm sure Altendorf and Martin probably do as well. Never seen anyone do that on a Minimax/Tecnomax, though...


The Elite S is the big dog of the combo line. That's the heaviest one made isn't it Erik? Dave

Yeah.....

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/ShopCU410Elite-S2.jpg


I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.


sorry for jumping in here (I have been watching/reading this as I always had similar questions like Peter):
To make the matter more complicated suppose that 6" wide board is only 3" wide (or something like that) and you want to rip it in the middle into half. This is the kind of a rip cut where things become dangerous on a traditional cabinet saw. How can you do this safely on a slider? (again this is a genuine question). thanks

The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw". You can use the slider like a regular table saw to make that cut on a thin piece of solid wood, the old fashioned way with the rip fence but honestly, I would do that particular rip (long and thin) the bandsaw.

Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Heidrick]

EDIT: alright sorry, I'm being dense. you're saying why not set the rip fence so that it's 3/8" away from the blade and put the keeper side on the slider. duh. That makes sense.

That's what I would try.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

By the way Steve, thanks for starting this thread. I saw your comment in the sawstop thread and your point was well taken. Hence why I'm asking.

Having re-read your post since my last post in this thread, I think the answer to my question about the parallel rip cut might lie in this paragraph.

Are you saying that you position the rip fence such that you can ride the straight-line ripped edge along the rip fence, but you clamp the waste side of the board down to the sliding table, using the sliding table to push the workpiece through the blade?

Did I understand that correctly? What do you do when you only want to take, say, half an inch off of the width of the board? I know I have to be missing something here. I'm truly not trying to be obstinate, I just want to understand.

Hi again Peter, Yes, you are correct. I like the short rip fence for some of these rips, the one that ends before the blade. It lets me set the rip width, then I just hold the cutoff to the sliding carriage as it passes the blade. You can clamp it, but I usually just use down pressure supplied by me. The rip fences can be slid, and if I want to do a really skinny piece, for instance, I built my kids a little barn for their toys. I needed a pile of 1/8" think slats cut on a bevel, taken off a ripped surface from the bandsaw. The purpose was to simulate shingles, so I wanted the bevel with the rough surface the nasty old bandsaw blade left. To do this, I set the short rip fence as a bump stop, its 2 foot long or so, so I could reference square before the stock ever got close to the blade. As the stock finishes the cut, the ripped small piece is dropped off after the rip fence is ended, so that the little arrow looking cut off is never allowed to be loose between the blade and a fence. I cut 100 or so of these very quickly with this setup. Think of it as a setup like a meat slicer uses.

On a longer or bigger piece, I sometimes use the longer rip fence that ends well behind the blade. Same technique except as the cut nears the end, because you move along the saw, not stand in front of it, simply with a push stick, or I use my hand a foot or so behind the blade, put a bit of pressure on the offcut, and it will follow past the blade with the stock riding the carriage. The key is moving the offcut from behind the blade.

The great riving knives on these machines help make this sort of operation very uneventful.

[Mike Heidrick]

The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw". You can use the slider like a regular table saw to make that cut on a thin piece of solid wood, the old fashioned way with the rip fence but honestly, I would do that particular rip (long and thin) the bandsaw.

Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I so need to get better at using my bandsaw. I just always go to tablesaw. I love grippers too for thin small cuts. Even they are not perfect and the blade is going right over the top of my hand.

[Mike Wilkins]

Like Mr. Van Patten, I also have the Laguna Pro 6' Sliding tablesaw. For the size of my shop (16 X 24) it is an ideal size. This machine replaced the 1964-era Delta Unisaw that I owned for years, which is a fine machine by itself. He makes some nice observations which are spot-on and accurate. One thing that I noticed right off the bat is the increased safety a slider can offer. On my Unisaw, I can remember many times making a cutting operation in which my fingers were close to the spinning blade; like an inch or so. Not smart I know but felt I could get away with it. With my slider, my digits are miles away from the blade, the riving knife reduces the chance of a kickback (had a couple of scary ones on the Unisaw), the added overhead dust collection makes my lungs happy, and power is more than adequate.
As for ripping: I have done it both with the fence and with the board secured to the sliding table. I devised a couple of hold-down devices using the Bessey hold down clamps to hold the board while traveling through the blade. I also use the rip fence but not often, except for really long pieces like ripping a 4 X 8 sheet of ply.
Again all these operations are done on the side of the sliding table, removing you from the path of kickback. Yes it does take some getting used to, but the transition is not a long process.
I feel there would be a lot more sliding tablesaws in shops around the country if the manufacturers/dealers did more advertising and exposure of their machines. Other than one article in FWW covering the 5-function combos, I have never seen a publication covering sliding tablesaws (the British mag Cabinet and Furnituremaking does on occasion).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I feel there would be a lot more sliding tablesaws in shops around the country if the manufacturers/dealers did more advertising and exposure of their machines. Other than one article in FWW covering the 5-function combos, I have never seen a publication covering sliding tablesaws (the British mag Cabinet and Furnituremaking does on occasion).

Mike, I agree. I live in the middle of no where, and I have had three people drive 400 plus miles to come see mine because they wanted to know more. 11 have called, emailed or sent letters. That does not count any contact here. People just have to go to somewhat extraordinary lengths to get good intel on these machines. I think the pros have access to better information because the marketing has been targeted to them, and these type of machines are common in the industry. Not so in the consumer market. I think it's obvious that there is a desire by recreational woodworkers to learn more.

[ian maybury]

There's a whole body of work on a slider that takes a bit of figuring out - in the sort of territory mentioned.

I have an 8ft Hammer K3, and still am still getting into it - but so far it seems to need clamps (the air clamps look nice, but manual clamps work fine too), parallel bars, a side table, and a separate mitre gauge with a short fence so that it's not necessary to disturb the main fence too often. The table is quite large, so it's not come up yet - but there's also the question of how best to set up out feed tables and the like.

Even when you have the hardware there's all sorts of little working techniques to be figured out. The edge of the slider is a great reference for getting pieces lined up off, and you can often use a simple tool like a combo square to do this - but there's scenarios too where various sorts of fixturing, measuring and set up tools can be useful. Some stuff on how others make certain sorts of cuts would be great.

So +1 that a comprehensive book/manual of slider use and techniques would be very useful. Maybe even somebody specialising in the supply of accessories for slider saws. 'The Slider Shop' anybody?

It's not the easiest to search, but the Felder Owner's Group site on Yahoo does link and contain some photos and posts on these topics - although it tends to come in widely distributed snippets in response to specific 'how to' questions..

ian

[Mike Konobeck]

This topic has been covered pretty extensively. I actually pulled a previous post of mine and pasted below (modified slightly):

I say this a lot but I guess this is one of those questions or advice providing situations where nobody can tell you how you like to work. You just have to try them out and see what you like. Contact Felder or Minimax and they will have a few names for you so you can go visit someone locally that has what you are looking at or at least close. A cabinet shop usually has the large 8-10' sliders that really don't give you an appreciation for the middle ground so find someone with a saw that is in your realistic budget.

What I don't understand is that when someone is standing at the decision of spending $3k+ on a saw they would not just buy a slider versus X,Y,orZ. The price difference is minimal and the amount of engineering you get is not comparable. Yes, the technology in a Sawstop is pretty cool and worth it if just that one time it saves your fingers or worse but the Sawstop doesn't prevent kickback or reduce exposure to the other injuries that come from a high speed spinning blade anymore than any other reputable brands out there today. Take away the technology of the Sawstop and it is just a cabinet saw.

I have a Felder combo (CF-731 Pro) and I have had it for 2 years. Bought it used.
252818

I learn how to use it more efficiently every time I turn the power on or just stop and think that there has to be a better way. Those that don't like sliders for ripping likely have a very large capacity, dedicated sheet cutting saw with the outrigger and massive crosscut fence on all the time so you have to walk a 1/2 mile just to pull the stock off the outfeed side. Ripping using the fence is not really any safer than a conventional saw. Period. End of story. You can build carriers/parallel fences that utilize the slider for doing not only the straight line rip but final width ripping as well. This is what a feeder is for too. If you are going to be doing repetitive cuts or utilize a combo where it has a shaper then get one. Lots of creative ideas out there using the Incra fences. I have not done this yet but will eventually. This is obviously something that you can't do on a conventional saw and immediately makes the slider head and shoulders above the rest in safety when it comes to ripping.

Don't think of the slider length as limiting unless you are dead set on using the slider to rip sheet goods lengthwise You can build a carrier for hardwood stock ripping to overcome the slider length limitation. As long as you can get 48" of travel (through the blade) out of the slider it should be fine for sheet goods. I have never had to put an 8 foot piece of ply on the saw and cut end to end but I am not a professional either (far from it!). I have made a few cabinets though and never found it limiting. To me it is much easier to rip sheet goods down to width using a circular saw and take it to the slider for refinement If my saw wasn't in the basement I would have no hesitation throwing the sheet on the saw though and doing the width cuts first and then turning it to do lengthwise cuts. Always using the slider. Fingers far away with stock nicely clamped down. Another nice thing about the sliders is that you can add a lot of stuff to them. Of course at a significant cost but the sky is really the limit. Especially when you get into the partial or full combos.

If you want a slider and dedicate yourself to learning to use it efficiently then you will never look back. If your personality is that you don't like change then pass on a slider because it will only lead to testing your patience and your work will suffer. There is no disrespect meant in that statement to those that have tried and don't like it. It is really a personal preference thing. As long as you can cut wood safely and you enjoy what you are doing then nothing else matters.

[mreza Salav]

The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw". You can use the slider like a regular table saw to make that cut on a thin piece of solid wood, the old fashioned way with the rip fence but honestly, I would do that particular rip (long and thin) the bandsaw.

Just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

I agree that a "good" bandsaw is a safer machine to do this.

Honestly, I hear that sliders are very safe or some say safer than a sawstop but I have had my doubts (or questions) about the latter. I know that sliders are excellent at breaking down sheets, doing cross-cutting, and straight line rips. But the most dangerous operations on traditional table saws are rips of narrow pieces; that's when your hands get close to the blade (which you're supposed to avoid using push sticks, etc). If the setup of doing that kind of operation is similar on a slider then it still shares the most dangerous situation with a traditional table saw.
I guess you might use some sort of clamps or jigs as Dave is pointing out to do this very safely on a slider, but I still don't see how that could be repeat setup or quick.

[David Kumm]

For solid wood I think clamps are as integral to a slider as a power feeder on a shaper. There is no machine where I want my hand near the blade. I used to be pretty careless with my bandsaw until a 1" blade snapped. Even though they are much more safe a broken blade can decapitate before anything stops. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

Peter,
The way I read this is you are thinking of just final width dimensioning of a board. There are options with a slider depending on how you work and so on but the simplest option is to rip the board just as you would with a conventional saw. You simply set the rip fence to 5.5", slide the slider into a forward position, lock it, and in this configuration the saw is just a straight forward conventional table saw with the exception of a slight reach over the slider to rip. The only time you would have to make a configuration change is if you were ripping a very long board (longer than the travel of your slider) and you would simply have to remove the cross cut fence on the slider (two hand screws/10 seconds on mine) to allow for the long board.

The other way (an nicer in my opinion) is to have a simple shop made parallel fence that attaches to the slider cross cut fence. I made mine out of a piece of 1/2 poplar ply and some 4/4. Its simply a large speed square so to speak that you clamp to the cross cut fence giving you a 8' long fence on the slider running parallel to the blade. It costs about 40 bucks unlike the un-godly prices for some add on fence from the manufacturer. Also all you have to do to set your width is simply align with the flip stop. There is no second dimension, no worrying about calibration, nothing. If it ever needs to be checked, slide it over against the blade and skin a 32nd off an its guaranteed dead true.

I frequently break down large quantities of live edge material and the auxiliary fence is my preferred option. I straight line and stack on a cart then simply install the aux. fence (5 seconds hanging on the wall next to the slider), clamp it to the desired width using the flip stops for measurement. Then run the boards back through the saw with the SL edge against the aux. fence. Its extremely fast. Further there is no re-positioning of hands, no starts and stops in the feeding, no reaching for push sticks, nothing. Just as fast as you can load the boards on the slider you plow them through. This works well for me if Im not breaking down material with the feeder (which is the absolute best way).

The increased feed speeds give better blade life, more consistent cuts, and so on. Never a burn or saw mark where you had to pause to re-position your hands, nothing. And all the while through the entire operation your hands are far from the blade.

These issues with sliders are all pretty simple and in the world of forum postings, and over thinking, they can seem much more complicated than they are.

I think a great statement in this thread is the one that speaks to the fact that if your a person who struggles with change/changing up your operation because you've just always done it one way then there really isnt any point in looking any farther than a PM66.

[Mike Heidrick]

This is what a feeder is for too. If you are going to be doing repetitive cuts or utilize a combo where it has a shaper then get one. Lots of creative ideas out there using the Incra fences. I have not done this yet but will eventually. This is obviously something that you can't do on a conventional saw and immediately makes the slider head and shoulders above the rest in safety when it comes to ripping.


Why can you not add a feeder to a regular cabinet saw?

[David Kumm]

Why can you not add a feeder to a regular cabinet saw?

You can and many do. You need a stout frame if you want the feeder to flip out of the way or a good heavy cast iron table if it is going to remain in place. It doesn't excel at narrow rips as you will have to set the tires into the blade when the fence is closer than about 2" so they get wrecked quickly. You can mount the feeder just behind the blade so it grabs after the cut if you are dealing with long enough boards. A feeder won't slow down during a tough cut so the saw itself usually benefits from a bigger trunnion, arbor, and bearings if you use a feeder very often. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

[QUOTE=Erik Loza;2051093
The real answer to both your scenarios is "bandsaw".
Minimax USA[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read this thread. I've been in a position to have to split lots of 8/4, 10/4, and even 12/4 hard maple for millwork items, most of it on a circular saw, and it makes the hairs stand up on the back of my kneck the entire time. Never a serious problem, but wood has tension in balance, split a thick chunk in half, you disturb the balance. The band saw gives far less danger, faster feed rate, less waste, decent dust collection. Hard to beat, might require a few roller stands.

On the rip fence issue, I'm split. For big work, sheet goods, angles, a big sliding carraige is great. But for a pile of shorter parts with a great variety of widths such as a cultist for doors and FF parts for a complex run of built ins that jog around appliances.....1000# nuisance. I'm 5'6, I've never found a comfortable way to dance with a 10' sliding carraige while reaching over the blade playing shuffle board with stiles and rails. And resetting that parallel jig is great for a few large boards in a table top, not so great when you have 8 different widths to rip on parts under 48" length and under 6" widths. I never see videos showing the sort of work I do most using a slider, it's always some guy breaking down slabs or cutting sheet stock, or repetitive cross cuts. So my considered opinion as a slider user is, it will rip, not my favorite method though in many cases, least best option I have.

[Mark Bolton]

I guess perhaps Im use to it an it fits my shop/work flow. I have used it for everything from random width/length work (pieces ranging from 3" wide x 18" long on up to wide/long) all the way up to full kitchens with doors. I cant count the times Ive broken down several hundred feet of rough stock, random widths and lengths, in a morning alone. I cant even begin to guess what it would take me, and what the end result would be, with my TS.

Of course if my shop were larger and I wasnt averse to spending money on several more dedicated machines, I would. But for me its the bread and butter work horse in a shop. Slider and a conventional saw, I will be working at the slider the vast majority of the time. Regardless of the type of work Im doing, if I had the space and had to choose one machine for me it would be a no brainer.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I think the two most appealing solutions to my concerns about the parallel rip are:

1. Don't use the tablesaw at all. Use a bandsaw. The downside of this is, first, you need a bandsaw, and second it needs to be a really good bandsaw with a super nice blade to get close to the cut quality of a tablesaw. That said, the bandsaw has so many other great uses that most woodworkers probably already have a decent bandsaw anyway. Plus, people with the money to buy a true slider probably have the money to buy a good bandsaw. So for most people in the target market, this is a moot point.

2. Put a power feeder on the saw and use the rip fence for your rip cuts. This seems to require a bit of fidgeting.

Other solutions seem to involve fidgeting with jigs, getting out a square and/or other measuring implements to set the machine up, etc.

So, I'm going to draw a conclusion that many of you won't like. Here goes. Deep breath.

Parallel rip cuts are nearly as dangerous on a slider as they are with a cabinet saw, unless you go to extra lengths with jigs, extra measuring before each cut, or using power feeders.

Furthermore (and please try to resist the urge to get angry), the best combination of safety and convenience for parallel rip cuts is a sawstop. Yikes. Sorry. I said it. Please don't hate me or start yelling about politics.

If sawstop would get off their butts and get a true slider in the market, holy cow. I think that would be a massive game changer. Those of you who have the money to buy a true euro slider machine will be able to afford a sawstop version of the euro slider machine. There's most definitely a high end market there.

Again, I mean no offense and I'm not criticizing anybody who chose to go with a slider machine. Obviously the slider is way way safer than a traditional cabinet saw, and has extremely useful functions that a sawstop simply doesn't have. But I do challenge the assertion that it's just as safe as a sawstop due to the parallel rip cut issues. The sliders do have a significant advantage regarding kickback risk for many operations.

[mreza Salav]

Peter, I think you summed up my conclusion too. If you are working with a lot of sheet goods a good slider is a no brainer. For professional shops that is the saw to go with I think.
For people like me (hobbyist) who mostly work with solid woods it seems sawstop is the safest saw. I don't see myself getting a lot of advantage out of a slider.
If sawstop comes out with a slider I think that would be the safest saw and if it is at a reasonable price range I might upgrade to that.

[Mark Bolton]

Obviously the slider is way way safer than a traditional cabinet saw

I dont know what the definition of "way" is, but they are safer. That said they are still very dangerous. Its not to say to throw caution to the wind until your down to only half a pinky remaining on one hand but the simple fact of the matter is all tools are dangerous.

I say it to this day, working with power tools since my teens (close to 30 years), ten fingers and ten toes, and I still frequently get a pause when I fire up the saw. I consider it respect. That said, being overly scared/cautious of a tool, or being overly callous around tools, either one in my opinion are recipes for disaster.

I often remember a picture here, and have shown it to my guys a few times, of a guy (may read this) who mauled his hand on a stationary, but rotating, small brad point bit in the drill press. "Saw stopping" every dangerous thing in the shop is an impossibility.

The insurance industry will control when, and how wide spread, the implementation of sawtop-esk devices will be.

[Jeff Monson]

So my considered opinion as a slider user is, it will rip, not my favorite method though in many cases, least best option I have.

Well put, I'm in the same camp. When I'm ripping face frame parts (1 3/4" through 3") I use the rip fence, just as I would have with my cabinet saw. I find it no safer, as its the same operation. The other complaint I have with my slider and ripping narrow stock is, the slider sits higher than the cast surface of the table. I know this is pretty much a standard for sliders, but its just something I dont care for.

I still prefer a slider over a standard tablesaw. Someday hoepfully soon, I will have a decent bandsaw that is capable of consistent rippping.

[David Kumm]

Peter, there is a lot of truth to your analysis although I think it pertains best to ripping wood less than3" wide. As long as I can get my clamp- about 1.5" wide on the slider side of the board there is no need for hands at all. Having said that I still go to the rockwell with the grripper for short narrow stock less than 3". No SS but at least my hand is way above the blade and I am forced to keep the blade only a little above the thickness of the wood. For those limited cuts I could use my bosch portable as it does very well with a good blade. Dave

[Jim Foster]

It seems like this is true for the dangerous type rips we should not be taking on a tablesaw in general. (narrow, fingertips right by the saw, etc...) However, with the rip fence adjusted so it ends along the blade, and a riving knife, and the type of fence the Hammer has that can be turned 90 degrees and have much more room to keep the fingers away from the blade, I think this issue is greatly minimized. Also seems like much of the ripping can be done on the slider if it's setup properly. I don't have a slider, but it looks like a big benefit of the slider design is to try and get set up so as much cutting as possible is done using the slider, for crosscut and rip.



So, I'm going to draw a conclusion that many of you won't like. Here goes. Deep breath.

Parallel rip cuts are nearly as dangerous on a slider as they are with a cabinet saw, unless you go to extra lengths with jigs, extra measuring before each cut, or using power feeders.

Furthermore (and please try to resist the urge to get angry), the best combination of safety and convenience for parallel rip cuts is a sawstop. Yikes. Sorry. I said it. Please don't hate me or start yelling about politics.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I agree completely with all of you.

Frankly if I was really wealthy, my setup would be a sawstop for parallel rip cuts and a full euro slider for all other tablesaw cuts. But alas, I have resource constraints. So the best of both worlds would be a sawstop with a cast iron table and a biesemeyer style rip fence with a full outrigger euro style sliding table.

I paid a little over $3k for my sawstop PCS, and also bought an excalibur sliding table. I bought the excalibur used at an awesome price. But let's pretend I bought it new. Current prices are around $1,400. So all in, this setup brand new would cost $4,400, plus tax/etc. Let's call it $5k.

Hammer's K3 winner (79 x 48) is selling for $5k on their site. A sawstop sells at maybe a $1k premium over similarly equipped competing saws. So let's assume the same mark-up applies here. I'd definitely pay $6k for a sawstop slider. I'd have to sell my existing saw and pinch my pennies for a while, but I would totally do it.

[Norb Schmidt]

There are two methods I use to do that very thing (MM machine). I will either use the rip fence as you would normally, locking the slider and setting the fence 5.5" from the blade. I would feed the board standing behind the board to start - then move to the left of the slider, basically standing directly infront of the blade as the board is mostly through the cut. You don't have to worry about kickback - the riving knife is holding the back of the board off the back side of the blade. You would then use push sticks to finish the board directly past the blade. Be mindfull that the guards are ALWAYS on. It looks weird, pushing the board over the blade - but with the guarding it has never caused me any difficulty.

The second variation is to simply use stops on both the front and rear of the board on the slider set off 5.5" from the blade. Bump the board against these stops (with the slider fully pulled back), and push the slider through. There are stops your can purchase with the newer sliders, but mine is old so I have to make my own. Think of it as a t-track that mounts on the side of the slider with a ruled stop that I can stop wherever.

9 times out of 10 - I use the faster 1st method. And I sold my traditional saw (but have a friend who kept his Powermatic to rip and dado). I don't have the room.

Last thought - there are a number of video's out there (mostly european) that describe euro slider use. You have to approach them differently - I liken it to using a router table - you work in front of the blade most of the time. But - with the slider, the wood approaches the blade effortlessly - and under (usually) much better control. You aren't fighting friction - and when you are ripping a 4X8 piece of plywood - that is a good thing.

[Mark Bolton]

If I were really wealthy I would not be doing this for a living and hopefully be floating around on a fully staffed sailing yacht in the south pacific somewhere. ;)

If I were going to really go hog wild on a saw Id go for something like a Martin T74 or T75 loaded. L/R dual bevel blade, fully auto fences, fully automatic electronic 3 axis scoring, miter cross cut table automatically adjusts/compensates for miters, electrically powered sliding table, etc...

If you can find a video or get to see one in action,.. pretty sweet but some serious coin

[David Kumm]

Peter, if SS builds a slider it will be interesting to see. They will have to get the tolerances right on the table which has been a weakness of Asian sliders or the operator will save his fingers but the frustration will lead to a stroke. Dave

[johnny means]

If i were wealthy... Oh who am i kidding? I'd still be piddling around the shop all day. Just with nicer toys and no thoughts about margins.

[Peter Aeschliman]

If i were wealthy... Oh who am i kidding? I'd still be piddling around the shop all day. Just with nicer toys and no thoughts about margins.

Ha ha, exactly!

[Chris Tsutsui]

Not that i tried this, but if I wanted to use the sliding table to remove a thin strip from a long board maybe I could adjust my rip fence so that it's spaced from the blade the correct amount of space that I want to remove. Then you clamp your work piece to the sliding table using the T-slots and hold downs while the wood is still flush touching the rip fence. Then you move the fence out of the way and make your cut. This should work if your blade is parallel to the rip fence though you might have to lower the blade to set this up.

I have had successful cross cutting smaller boards into small pieces in repetition using a similar method. I have one of those mag switches and I attach it to the cast iron in front of the blade near the measuring tape. I butt up my board against the magnet then use the slider to make the cross cut. The magnet acts as a stop block.

[Dominic Carpenter]

When I was looking to upgrade my table saw I heard and new very little about sliders. I was strongly considering a new powermatic, however, after educating myself with the help of Rich at Felder i decided that they make a whole lot of sense. As an owner of a slider I am shocked more of us here in the states are not using them. I think all of us (me included) see the equipment used by the craftsman on TV and think that is the way to go. I for one am extremely glad I went with the Hammer slider. I have had my Hammer K3 winner (78" sliding table) with a scoring blade and dado setup for about 8-9 months now and I could not be happier. I LOVE the big cross cut sled which attaches to the slider. Beautifully smooth and incredibly accurate. The sled can be moved the entire length of the slider, I have never needed to remove it to rip. It's nice to have 4 HP and the ability to use a 12" blade which gives you a full 4" depth of cut. I needed this several times on my last project. Not often considered, but that extra inch is really incredible to have.
Ripping has been addressed several places here, and I must say I feel more comfortable using this saw for ripping than I did with my conventional cabinet saw. Everything has a slight learning curve and this is no different. It does take a little getting used to, but it is surprising how much you begin to enjoy using this machine. I just thoroughly enjoy using this saw.
I do have one criticism, however, when cutting a full sheet of plywood the on/off switch on this machine is impossible to get to. I have contacted the tech support and they are aware of the issue, but currently do not have a work around for the Hammer. Remote start not recommended. Despite this, I am very happy I looked into these machines. I have mine on one side of a two car garage. And if the price worries you. The Hammer K3 Winner in slightly more than a new unisaw or powermatic and IMHO you get much more saw and incredible accuracy on crosscuts without building a homemade sled. Anyone serious about putting a great saw in their shop needs to look at the Euromachines.

[Mark Bolton]

when cutting a full sheet of plywood the on/off switch on this machine is impossible to get to. I have contacted the tech support and they are aware of the issue, but currently do not have a work around for the Hammer. Remote start not recommended.

So how are you accessing the switch when cutting sheet goods? Lock the slider in the rear, load your sheet, turn on the saw, then cut? I can see, but I guess I dont understand, why with a 78" slider they wouldnt put a second set of controls on the slider. Even if they were there with a full sheet on they would still be some 20" under the sheet.

I guess perhaps they figure if you are planning on breaking down sheet goods you would move up to a bigger saw...

[Mike Heidrick]

The K3 I just saw on youtube had an estop. Wire another switch or two in series with it if you just want a couple off button at the ends of the machine. Factormation sells some nice flush mounting buttons - Get normally closed contacts.

You could do wireless RF with a contactor too I am betting if you wanted on and off.

[Mike Heidrick]

I agree it would be hard not to buy a small K3 at $3299 vs a PM or Unisaw. I would so be wanting the $10K model though. Watching the setup videos on youtube you will see all the awesome extrusions in the big table.

I really would want Xroll on the 700/900 series though and that costs much as a vehicle. Oh and add the shaper - and all its parts. It would never end.

I still think I would be ripping like normal though. I could not stand all the fidgity setup of the parallel rip on every cut. Thats why I would just keep the sawstop I have and add the slider as a second saw.

[Andy Wojteczko]

Peter you can use the parallel stop. This is an optional accessory. You would use the standard cross cut fence at the forward end of the saw with the stop set at 5.5". Set the parallel stop at 5.5" at the other end of you 8 foot board and rip away. No clamps are required but do make it easier. The keeper piece stays left of the blade as you move the table through the blade. There is a simple jig that you can make to do very thin parallel strip cuts which is shown in the Holzidee #13 German magazine. Scroll down to page 46. Even if you don't understand German you will get the idea.
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festool-fuer-Heimwerker/Holzidee-Heimwerken/Seiten/Holzidee-Magazin-Ausgaben.aspx

Once you have used a slider there is no looking back.
I have a Felder Kappa 40 with a 10.5 foot slider which is used as a hobby machine. I bought it used from a one man cabinet shop that was closing.

Andy

[Peter Aeschliman]

Peter you can use the parallel stop. This is an optional accessory. You would use the standard cross cut fence at the forward end of the saw with the stop set at 5.5". Set the parallel stop at 5.5" at the other end of you 8 foot board and rip away. No clamps are required but do make it easier. The keeper piece stays left of the blade as you move the table through the blade. There is a simple jig that you can make to do very thin parallel strip cuts which is shown in the Holzidee #13 German magazine. Scroll down to page 46. Even if you don't understand German you will get the idea.
http://www.festool.de/Aktionen/Festool-fuer-Heimwerker/Holzidee-Heimwerken/Seiten/Holzidee-Magazin-Ausgaben.aspx

Once you have used a slider there is no looking back.
I have a Felder Kappa 40 with a 10.5 foot slider which is used as a hobby machine. I bought it used from a one man cabinet shop that was closing.

Andy

Wow, I never would have thought of a jig (or jigs) like that. So the fence is pulled back to avoid a pinch area, but serves to dial in the cut width... and the cut is completed by using a big push-block looking thing that rides in the t-slots, with an opposing piece against the cross cut fence. Pretty smart.

To me, it's almost as if the sliding table needs to have another rip fence that is perfectly parallel to the blade and can be dropped in and removed easily, with hold down clamps. That would completely solve the problem I'm having with the parallel rip and win me over.

Anyway, good stuff. Thanks for posting.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm thinking of the second parallel cut.

Let me start over with a simple hypothetical. Let's say I have an 8 foot long, 6" wide board. It has already been milled: it's flat, square, straight, etc. The problem is, I need to cut the 6" wide board down to 5.5". I need to take half an inch off. Let's pretend I don't have a planer, where I could put a thick board on edge and run it through until it was 5.5".

With an 1/8" wide blade, that only leaves 3/8" of waste. If I were to use the technique as described, where you move the rip fence over so that the space between the rip fence and the blade is 5.5", press the "keeper" side of the workpiece against the fence, and attempt to slide the board through the cut using the sliding table, how could I hold it down without letting my hands get close to the blade? Clamps wouldn't be able to hold the piece down without hitting the blade.

This is the scenario I'm picturing when I ask how a slider is safer than a standard cabinet saw when ripping.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

Peter, I'm trying to catch up on reading all these posts, and just reread his.

To do this cut, which is a fairly common cut, I set the short rip fence at 3/8", set so that it stops before the blade. Put the 6" board on the slider, and hold it against the rip fence as you move it through the cut. As you get close to done with the cut, transfer the holding against the fence pressure to down pressure and continue the cut with the carriage moving with the keeper board. The off cut will stop beside the blade, but because the short fence is used, it is not between the blade and anything else. Not that it could take off with the riving knife, but the short fence provides another bit of safety.

I do think this is far safer than a conventional saw, including the Sawstop, because all parts of the board and offcut are always captured or completely free of the blade. I have a unisaw too, and i use the Felder for everything but cement board now, partially because it is safer. Partially because it is just fun.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dominic, any idea why the Felder remote switch won't work? It's just a wireless receiver that trips the relay's control circuit. Seems like it should be possible. Maybe they don't have the end plate or something.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Well put, I'm in the same camp. When I'm ripping face frame parts (1 3/4" through 3") I use the rip fence, just as I would have with my cabinet saw. I find it no safer, as its the same operation. The other complaint I have with my slider and ripping narrow stock is, the slider sits higher than the cast surface of the table. I know this is pretty much a standard for sliders, but its just something I dont care for.

I still prefer a slider over a standard tablesaw. Someday hoepfully soon, I will have a decent bandsaw that is capable of consistent rippping.

Jeff that difference in height bothered me too, so I adjusted it out to see what happened. What do ya know, the saw works just as well, and now that stinking .001" of an inch wobble is gone! I didn't catch which saw you have, but it's pretty easy on the x roll.

[Jeff Monson]

Jeff that difference in height bothered me too, so I adjusted it out to see what happened. What do ya know, the saw works just as well, and now that stinking .001" of an inch wobble is gone! I didn't catch which saw you have, but it's pretty easy on the x roll.

Steve, I have a KF700S, xroll with a 9 foot slider. I have been tempted many times to lower the slider....I'm deathly afraid to start adjusting it though. I do have the survival manual, guess I should just bite the bullet and go for it. Any advice or setup tools that make the job easy?

[David Kumm]

Jeff, put one or two dial indicators on the front and back and check the table for consistency. Then check the numbers right in front of the spindle to verify the readings are all the same. Usually the extrusion is flatter than the cast iron. It could be that the cast needs to be flattened first. Once you are sure the table reads the same all along the cast you can start to fiddle with the base. Long AL slider bases can move like noodles so keep the dials on the tables when you tighten the base back down. I go .002 or as close as I can get with a shaper table. Sometimes the ends of the AL extrusion tip up a few thousands right at the end but if behind the fence it doesn't matter. The main thing is the slider range at the spindle. I've not adjusted a Felder but my Knapp was a pain. My old SCMI had no adjustment on the slider so it required the cast iron table and trunnions to be adjusted to it. Turned out to be way easier than adjusting the slider. Good luck but it is worth it. And when you think it is just right, go to bed and check it in the morning. Takes me a couple of days for it to read the same when I'm alert as when I'm tired. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

I've been woodworking for 35 years. I did some work for hire when I was in HS and college but it's been all hobby since. I started with my dad's worn out Sears 1940s TS and some very old tools he bought for $100 in the 70s. After college when I had my own home I bought a nice used Unisaw and a basic shaper and jointer. In 1990 I treated myself to new powermatic tools, PM66, 8" jointer, 12" planer, and 3HP shaper. Loved those tools. Around 2006 my wife saw a video of the Sawstop industial saw and insisted I upgrade. I liked the Sawstop a lot more than the Powermatic.

Having said all that, when building cabinets cutting sheet good perfecly square was very elusive. The factory corners are usually not square enough. Most parts were too big for a sled. I tried a Festool rail saw but you only cut as square as you can line up the rail, still not really square. To put this in perspective I use a Dewalt 14" RAS as a crosscut station. I set it up 15 years ago and with a 5 cut method I was able to get to a cutoff error of .001". So I like square.

I started to realize that the best way to ensure square cuts on large pieces was a slider. I stubled across a new Felder CF741SP completely loaded with every option and tons of accessories on ebay. The seller bought the contents of an abandoned storage shed in LA and didn't really know what they had. Lit price was almost $30K. Part of the auction rules were you had to remove the item within a few hours of the close of sale. I live in the Phoenix area and don't have a large truck. Also the seller would not assist with loading. I scrambled to arrange a way to load and found a trailer so I could get it. In the end I hadn't really committed to the idea of a 4 way combo machine and I underbid. I bit around $12K and it sold for like $13.5K. Killer deal for somebody.

Now I had a slider on the brain and started my engineering obsession with research on sliders. I was convinced that I wanted a saw/shaper combo (the only way to fit a slider in my shop was to combine the shaper and saw in one). I chased a few used deals for a few months and was in no real hurry but then Felder had a really good sale at the end of 2009 and I ended up paying basically used price for a new machine.

First of all, the cut when you clamp wood to the slider the cut is AMAZING. Perfectly straight, like a few thousands over the whole length. I have the crosscut fence dialed in for essentially perfectly square. I can crosscut over 8ft and have the corner be perfectly square, easy easy easy.

It took me a few months to get comfortable using a slider. Ripping is the same except with the slider I stand to the left of the blade well away from the blade guard. When I want precision ripping I use a jig I made for the slider. I also made air clamps as I was unhappy with the clamps that came with the saw. After a few months I would never want to go back to just a cabinet saw. In my perfect world I have a lot more shop space and I have both a cabinet saw and a slider and the slider and shaper are separate.

Pros;
- cut quality
- square square square
- at least the 700 series Felder is in a completely different league than cabinet saws
- very heavy, zero vibration
- better dust collection than the Sawstop
- excellent riving knife and blade guard
- Felder Owners Groug site (FOG) is full of helpful people and well moderated to keep jerks off the site
- Jigs can go to a new level. I made one for cutting veneers up to 8 ft and the cuts are perfect

Cons;
- setup was much more involved than a cabinet saw, many parts, German transalation instructions
- Learning curve, you have to learn how to use a slider. Felder owners group is a huge help
- You have to remove the shaper fence to use the saw so if you mess a part up :cool: you have to remove the fence to cut a replacement. I thought about this and bought the digital height readout but the fence doesn't re-register perfectly so to resetup you have to futz a bit.
- it's expensive but I tell people I have the Felder instead of a Harley. The wife likes me having a Felder better than a Harley too.

I'm sure there are a lot more thoughts. I'm happy to help anyone on the fence or who needs help learning...joe

[Joe Jensen]

Steve, I have a KF700S, xroll with a 9 foot slider. I have been tempted many times to lower the slider....I'm deathly afraid to start adjusting it though. I do have the survival manual, guess I should just bite the bullet and go for it. Any advice or setup tools that make the job easy?


Jeff, I found that with precision straight edges I thought my cast iron top was flat enough. I had what I thought was .003" of dip in the middle, plenty good enough. I spent maybe 40 hours trying to dial the slider in. I'd get all but the last 12" on each end really close and then when I would try toget that last bit it would go way out. One of the moderators from the Felder Owners Group lives locally and he was kind enough to come over and help. Prior to delivery this guy convinced me to by and alignment tool called a "Precison Master Level" from Starrett. The level is 14" long and each mark on the glass vial is .0005". With it you can make the saw top perfectly flat. (get the level to read the same everywhere on the saw surface). Anyway when the guy arrived he asked if I had leveled the top (meaning but not saying did I use the master level). I replied yes but I had forgotton all about the master level in my exicitement. So we started trying to get the slider adjusted and after a few hours he decided to check the cast iron and he asked for my master level. That's when I remembered that's how I was to level it. We found that two diagonal corners were high and two were low. In 15 min we had the top perfectly flat. Then we relaxed all the bolts on the slider to let it rest back into non-tensioned state and an hour or so later we had it dialed in.

I've IM'd you and email'd. Happy to advise if you want...joe

[David Kumm]

I second the recommendation for the Starrett level. Not cheap but there are lots on ebay and CL if you watch and talk to the seller about condition. Many are well cared for. Even though they are short there are a million uses for them. Checking that the slider and the cast iron table are on the same plane is one, checking your jointer tables is another. Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jeff, maybe I got lucky, but it was pretty drama free. Good advice from the guys here so far. I was able to just use a couple straight edges and a dial indicator, actually one is big old Starrett machinist level. Take your time and think it through. The x roll has the four pillar bolts, two are a bit hard to reach, but possible.

I was impatient when I ordered my machine, and the guys in the States put the table off a different machine on it to fit my specs, to get it to me quicker. They got pretty close to perfect, but it had a little rise in it at the end of the slider stroke. Getting rid of that is what started the process of lowering the table. By the way, it is actually not too bad to tune that out, especially with the good tech support on the phone.

[Joe Jensen]

For the owners - here are some questions I have....

I want to know about the working around/standing around a long slider or the trade off of having a short feeder.

With my right tilt Unisaw and left tilt PM66 and left tilt SawStop I stood to the right of the fence. Not where everyone says you should but that's what I did. With the slider I mostly stand to the left of the blade, which is maybe 12" left of the blade. Now that I am used to this it feels natural. In the beginning it felt odd.


I want to know about ripping and how you do it, more importantly the second rip cut. I understand straight line ripping on the slider. Then do you set it up against the fence for the second cut? If so how are you continuing the cut through the blade after the board seperates from what is on the fence - ? push stick, feeder, what?

Ripping depends on what I'm doing. I have only straight line ripped hardwood a few times. I rip a fresh edge on every sheet of sheet goods. If I'm ripping and it just needs cabinet saw precision I use the rip fence for rip cuts. When I want perfect edges I use a parallel rip jig I made that mounts to the slider. I ripped 36 parts that needed to be exactly 4" wide and 50" long. With the jig each part was perfect and maybe faster than using the rip fence. Certainly faster if I was trying for max accuracy with the rip fence.


We really need video how to guides on this to show how you can stand so far away from the blade. Does your table and accessories get in the way?

I almost always stand to the left of the slider and blade. If you set the saw in the shop so you don't have to walk around the slide it doesn't get in the way that much. The outrigger which is what holds wood for crosscuts extends like 70" to the left of the slider and it's in the way all the time in my garage shop. It detaches in maybe 3 min and I have a cart for it but I have only removed it like 5 times in 3 years so I guess it's too much of a pain.


I want to hear about all the setup time and air jigs many have for their saws. Also talk about access to power on and off buttons and mods you have done to enable that to be safer. In lesser slider saws (Hammer/500 series) are the buttons standard on the sliding table ends?

My saw came with a remote start button on the end of the slide. It's really nice and I would order that way or retrofit one. I bought the Felder with an excentric cam clamp that clamps the wood to the slide. You can hold the wood against the crosscut fence on the slider but I like it clamped. After a few months I got tired of the cam clamp is the wood wants to move a bit when you clamp with it. I copied a design for air clamps. The reason for the air clamps isn't for speed. The crosscut fence on a slider is at the front of the stock you are cutting. If the stock is wider than your arm you have to walk around the outrigger to clamp, and then back around to saw and then back around to loosen. Or you have to move the clamp around every time you cut a different size piece. I wasn't loving the slider until I made the air clamps. Now I totally love it.


Did you add those? Any issues with where those are? Did you add quick off paddles of any kind? Estops?


I added air clamps, see above. I also made a parallel cutting jig. I can send a word doc on that if you send me your email.


I want to know why you bought one rather than just using a tracksaw? I can see guys who deal with sheet goods all the time. For the hardwood only guys why did you do this?

I bought a Festool TS75 with a 4ft and 9ft tracks. The track saw cuts a really nice edge and really straight but getting a panel square was hit and miss for me. With a big slider it's really easy to be perfectly square.


Do you own a NA tablesaw too for ripping or dados?

I can't fit both in my shop. If/when I have space I may buy either a cabinet saw and mount a power feeder on it for ripping face frame stock and such. No space for both. Hated loading up the Sawstop when I sold it. I also hated selling the PM143 bandsaw I bought new in 1990 but I couldn't fit that one and the 24" Felder I bought for a song on Craigslist a few years ago.


Have you ever been cut on your slider?

No. I was cut on a Sears Craftsman with no guard when I was around 15. Just serous chewing up of the finger but no loss of function. Weirdly I never used a guard until I got the Sawstop and now I never saw withou unless it's a dado.


I also have never seen a slider manufacturer talk about how safe their saw is. Why is that?

I don't think they market them that way. Three things make them safer I think that the Unisaw and PM66 I owned.
1) Riving Knife
2) Great guard that mounts to the riving knife. Not in the way, has dust collection in the guard. Sawstop had the great guard. When I owned the Sawstop I actually bought and retrofitted a Felder blade guard to the Sawstop to get the dust port. Now Sawstop has one.
3) The slider moves you way away from the blade for most cuts. If you have the guard on it would take an act of god to cut yourself.


What does a hammer with a big sliding table cost?

I have no experience with the Hammer. I understand that the 500 series is now pretty close to the 700 series.


What does a 700 series with a big sliding table cost?

I have a Felder KF700SP which is a saw/shaper combo. I believe you have a monster Euro style shaper so you would only need asaw. I think you also have a 3 phase converter. If yes I'd saw buy a used Felder K975. Even better saw and you can find nearly new ones for $10K. In the 700 series I think a new one could be had for $9K or so. Most 700 series are sold as combo, either saw/shaper or saw/shaper/jointer/planer so that's what you see used. I ended up ordering new when they had a big sale. Mine has variable speed, 5HP motors, digital readouts, pretty loaded. Mine listed for like $25K and I got it for a lot less.

For me the internal debate was on space. I have a 3 car garage shop and before the slider I had separates and no big machines had to be mobile. I've since added the slider which is fixed, and I've added a Powermatic dual drum sander. Now my sander, drill press, and planer are all on mobile bases. I wish everythng had a home but I don't have room for that and space to work. I also made a big bench with tons of storage and put it on really large Zambus casters. I can roll it next to the slider and fit a car in the garage when not working.

Ownership? Every time I use it I get the same smile on my face that I think you get when you use that monster shaper. At least you didn't ask how much I have in shaper cutters :)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Joe, you have a great point about square. I'll never forget the first time I processed a stack of ply into cabinet parts, and discovered how horribly out of square plywood can be. I thought my saw was messed up for a bit.

[ian maybury]

Joe speaks specifically and eloquently to what as before I found with a (Hammer 8ft) slider too - clamping on the slider/no buts reliable work placement and guiding opens up such a world of effortless and relaxed precision. Once everything is accurately set up.

I dialled out the extra slider height too, and so far have found no problems. David Best's Felder well written set up manual 'The Survival Guide' http://davidpbest.com/Publications.htm goes through pretty much all slider set ups/machine alignments - including setting up a long slider.

As the guys say table flatness is a lot to do with how low you can drop the slider - especially along the infeed edge. Mine needed some alignment adjustments, but the casting turned out to be broadly flat apart from another 0.003in dip behind the blade cut out - right over the factory provided jacking screw which it turned out worked very well to eliminate it.

There's a bit of mystique around setting up a long slider. It was my first time and the job went fine. It does need a bit of care and a delicate touch (and the right tools), in that you are looking to make adjustments of maybe a thou or so using fairly coarse M8 jacking studs - but they work OK. There's a bit of compensation needed to keep it level due to the effects of its weight when it's overhung at each end of its travel - but it's fairly obvious what's going on if you can connect with what's happening rather than just blindly follow a procedure.

ian

[Mike Heidrick]

Awesome reply Joe. Thank you. Glad you love it!!

[George Gyulatyan]

Here's a YouTube video showing exactly the types of rip cuts that Peter is concerned about...


http://youtu.be/0sk7T0UVUFI

[Joe Jensen]

Here's a YouTube video showing exactly the types of rip cuts that Peter is concerned about...


http://youtu.be/0sk7T0UVUFI


That guard is set way to high, I have to assume it was done so you can see the cut and the blade. My guard rides on the surface of what Im cutting.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Thanks George.

The thing is, the guy in that video is basically just using the rip fence. He might be sliding the table forward as he's making the cut, but he's really just using the rip fence like you would on a standard cabinet saw. His hand is near the blade. That cut method is just as dangerous as a rip cut on an american cabinet saw.

[Brian Kincaid]

Was that video meant to be a demonstration of what NOT to do? I saw trapped cuts, uncontrolled offcut laying on a beveled blade including minor kick back (lucky this time). I'm sure the saw was dialed in and the operator was competent, but one thing goes wrong and you shoot a missile or chomp some fingers.

I'll give him a pass that the guard was too high, as he was trying to show the blade work (New Yankee Woodworker) but still.

-Brian

[David Kumm]

Was that video meant to be a demonstration of what NOT to do? I saw trapped cuts, uncontrolled offcut laying on a beveled blade including minor kick back (lucky this time). I'm sure the saw was dialed in and the operator was competent, but one thing goes wrong and you shoot a missile or chomp some fingers.

I'll give him a pass that the guard was too high, as he was trying to show the blade work (New Yankee Woodworker) but still.

-Brian

I think the only purpose was to show that the blade tilted both ways so you could bevel from either side. Dave

[Ed Weiser]

In about 50 years or so using a table saw, all of my close calls that might have resulted in serious injury (fortunately, none did) were related to kickback, NOT blade near body part (like my hand). This is why I just replaced my Unisaw of 20+ years with a Hammer B3. The Sawstop technology is excellent but does not per se protect against the most common risk, that of kickback. The further you are from the blade, the better--and I can think of no better way than the slider approach. Yes, I can and have done all these tasks on a standard cabinet saw but would rather not. Think of the slider technology like seat belts in your car--they reduce but do not eradicate the risk of driving. Further, you have to use the seat belts for them to work. And no, if Sawstop is akin to the air bag, it does not protect you from all possible injury if you don't wear a seat belt (or protect against kickback). Just my opinion...

[Mike Heidrick]

The riving knife is on the sawstop. It also has one built into the guard assembly and the there is above blade dust collection guard available as well. In the video shown over the past few threads this thought that you can stand left of the slide and be away from the blade and that is safer is confusing to me. Every video showed the guy using the saw walking right by the blade and teh hands going around the front or the rear of the blade to clear the off cut. your are constantly putting yourself next to the blade with a pass of the truck - every single cut. What am I missing where you guys say you are never close to the blade?????

[Peter Aeschliman]

In about 50 years or so using a table saw, all of my close calls that might have resulted in serious injury (fortunately, none did) were related to kickback, NOT blade near body part (like my hand). This is why I just replaced my Unisaw of 20+ years with a Hammer B3. The Sawstop technology is excellent but does not per se protect against the most common risk, that of kickback. The further you are from the blade, the better--and I can think of no better way than the slider approach.

Here's the way I see it, Ed- Yes, kickback can cause serious injury. Trust me, I probably know better than most people. I have a huge scar on my forehead to prove it. And yes, I did it on my sawstop! Yes, I was stupid and you could even argue I got what I deserved. While you won't hurt my feelings by arguing that, let's not sidetrack.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170208-Kickback-Hurts!-%28WARNING!-GORY-PICTURES!!%29&highlight=

Kickbacks are more common than amputations. That said, I believe that amputations are more serious injuries than kickback. I'd rather have the big "L-shaped" scar on my forehead than missing fingers. Yes, I could've lost an eye. But most kickbacks (mine aside) don't result in eye damage. It results in stitches and bruises. Lost fingers have a much more pervasive impact on quality of life.

So for me, I would take protection against amputation over protection from kickback if I had to choose. The safety argument is fascinating to me. Here's the way I see the comparison:

Kickback Risk Reduction
Euro sliders: Best
Saws with riving knives and good fences (SS and other newer saws): Good
Saws without such devices: Risky

Amputation Risk Reduction
Sawstop: Best
Euro Sliders: Good (would be "Best" if not for parallel rips issue)
Other standard saws: Risky

I don't want to distract us from other discussions about the benefits of sliders. But as I said, I place more weight behind the amputation risk reduction factors than I do the kickback reduction factors.

[Mike Heidrick]

A narrow cut on a tilted blade towards a fence or slider is a recipe for disaster and no saw type makes that better bro - again so sorry that happened to you. We need a forehead update pic in that thread so we can see it more than a year and a half later. Still praying your scars heal well over time my friend!

[Peter Aeschliman]

A narrow cut on a tilted blade towards a fence or slider is a recipe for disaster and no saw type makes that better bro - again so sorry that happened to you. We need a forehead update pic in that thread so we can see it more than a year and a half later. Still praying your scars heal well over time my friend!

Thanks man. What I did was stupid beyond belief, and no saw can stop an idiot from hurting himself if he tries hard enough. lol. But some can at least reduce the risk.

Yeah, maybe I should post a picture. The scar is there for sure. It's not going to get any better at this point without plastic surgery.

[Ed Weiser]

The point I was trying to make is one of control--I can generally stay away from the spinning blade but consistently thinking ahead and avoiding kickback is harder. My Dad, who was a consummate woodworker most of his 82 years, taught me very early, when you can't control what's going on, shut down the machine and step away till the blade stops. The stock you're cutting just isn't worth it. For me, the Sawstop technology is not nearly as valuable as distance from the moving blade. That said, all of these safety features help and, at least right now, we pick and choose those aids we feel most comfotable with. Peter, I hope you continue to heal well.

[Joe Jensen]

The riving knife is on the sawstop. It also has one built into the guard assembly and the there is above blade dust collection guard available as well. In the video shown over the past few threads this thought that you can stand left of the slide and be away from the blade and that is safer is confusing to me. Every video showed the guy using the saw walking right by the blade and teh hands going around the front or the rear of the blade to clear the off cut. your are constantly putting yourself next to the blade with a pass of the truck - every single cut. What am I missing where you guys say you are never close to the blade?????

I don't think I've ever been pounding a drum to claim Euro Sliders are safer than cabinet saw. Euro saws have however had proper riving knives for many years, well before cabinet saws. Euro tools also tend to have good guards. I had a Unisaw for years that I bought used without a guard. When I bought new PM66 in 1990 I tried the PM guard and after a day I took it off and tossed it behind a bench. When I bought a Sawstop Industrial saw I tried the guard and it was great, mounted to the excellent riving knife. The guard was not in the way so it stayed on the saw. My Felder has a nearly identical riving knife/guard setup and I use it all the time too. I am also sure that the guard for the PM66 was so crappy that it may well have made me less safe.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have this dream of owning both. I cant think of a better setup than that. No matter what method I am comfortable with or new euro slider method I want to learn they would be available.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I have this dream of owning both. I cant think of a better setup than that. No matter what method I am comfortable with or new euro slider method I want to learn they would be available.

Mike I bought a Unisaw for a josite saw earlier this year. Honestly I did it mostly because my first tablesaw was a Delta and when the Uni was selling for cheapish at the auction, I got a bit sentimental. I justified it because I didn't want to run construction lumber through the good blades, and 10" blades for the Uni are cheaper then 12" for the Felder. Admittedly, it was a stretch for logic.

Now that I have both again, I catch myself thinking how much better whatever I'm doing on the Uni would be on the Felder. With no exceptions. The fence is too tall for some cuts, the act of pushing an 8' board past a rip fence just seems uncontrolled now, no riving knife is odd, controls are a compromise, I don't need a helper to catch a floppy out feed board on the Felder, useless dust collection on the Uni (compared to the Felder), and it basically just seems very primitive. Funny how quickly the mind gets used to a new idea.

[David Kumm]

Joe discovered a video on you tube that is worth watching concerning narrow rips. Just key in Fritz and Franz and a bunch of videos come up but one of the first is about 9 minutes of ripping on a Martin with a jig. Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

That jig is awesome and so simple! The lightbulb has turned on. I get it now. Straight-line rip, slide the rip fence forward to avoid a pinch area, set the rip fence to your cut width, press the straight-lined edge up against the rip fence, and use the sliding table with the jig to make the parallel rip. Other videos in this thread showed the operator pushing the workpiece through with his hand. The only difference between his approach and the same cut on a cabinet saw is that the offcut side moves on a sliding table... not much of a difference in terms of safety.

The Fritz & Franz solution shown in that video solves it in a simple, limited-fuss manner. I wish I had seen this before I bought my sawstop. Oh well!

[David Kumm]

I found out what the green stuff is but it is Euro so I'm hoping to find something similar here. Must be real grabby for it to hold those small pieces.
Dave

[Peter Aeschliman]

Seems like it would be really easy to make this jig yourself. You could affix some sandpaper to the face of the jig for grip.

[David Kumm]

Seems like it would be really easy to make this jig yourself. You could affix some sandpaper to the face of the jig for grip.

I'm thinking something better than sandpaper given the disaster if the piece moves a little in the cut. It looks like something similar to a keyed door seal or weather strip. Dave

[ian maybury]

Thanks David (and Joe) - that's a hugely instructive video. :) Much appreciated. So user friendly.

Would be dead interested to hear the details on the green strip - it'd need to be pretty resilient to both grip and at the same time stay flat against the edges of the platens so that it wouldn't knock the piece out of square. Is it possibly part of a kit?

One very nice feature is that if you cut the platens on the saw after fitting the rail that drops into the T slot on the slider is that you end up with a perfect reference for where the saw cut will end up. You could also organise a vertical knob/handle with a threaded end passing through the platens into the T nuts - that would make them capable of being locked down. Maybe even the equivalent of a sliding stop mounted on the platens too if it turned out to be needed/udeful.

It'd also be possible to make a version where the platens were quite wide - so that it could handle fairly wide cuts up to the point where stuff becomes wide enough to locate accurately off the cross cut fence.

Wonder if it makes a set of parallel bars redundant?

ian

[Mark Bolton]

Someone hear the doorbell? Lots of good information. Long way around but finally got there. Several suggestions in the thread for variations on nearly the same jig in the video but hard to envision i guess.

[mreza Salav]

thanks for pointing to the video, very interesting. It sure keeps your hands away from the blade.
It seems in some situations though the amount of grip of the jig is very minimal, e.g. I'd not be very comfortable doing the cut in 7:33 minute or so.

[Andy Wojteczko]

If you check my previous post in this thread there is reference to this jig in the Holzidee magazine with a pointer to the link. There is more information on this jig in that magazine. I think the green edge is nothing more than T style edge banding.

Andy

[David Kumm]

If you check my previous post in this thread there is reference to this jig in the Holzidee magazine with a pointer to the link. There is more information on this jig in that magazine. I think the green edge is nothing more than T style edge banding.

Andy

Thanks, I had missed it. The edge is T bar Ergosoft Green 32x5 fine pore. Don't know if it has any special qualities. Dave

[ian maybury]

Thanks Andy (missed it too) and David.

Wonder if harder and maybe abrasive filled tape or hard plastic strip might not be an improvement on the rubber T strip? - the rubber seems likely to compress and as a result allow especially smaller parts clamped over only a short distance to get out of alignment.

ian

[Dave Keay]

Can someone post a Link to the fritz and frank videos I am having no luck finding them. Thanks

[David Kumm]

Can someone post a Link to the fritz and frank videos I am having no luck finding them. Thanks

Fritz and Franz

[Jim Foster]

Fritz and Franz does not Google up the requested video that well on my computer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzVglze9Nk


Fritz and Franz

[Charles Brown]

It just looks like regular T-Moulding we would use in the commercial shop I worked at. It can be fairly soft / rubbery. Maybe the green colour gives it super powers?

I would make one for my 6'-stroke Felder but I don't really have the ability to put the crosscut fence in the front position. I only have the retaining bars, etc. for the fence in the rear position.

[David Kumm]

It just looks like regular T-Moulding we would use in the commercial shop I worked at. It can be fairly soft / rubbery. Maybe the green colour gives it super powers?

I would make one for my 6'-stroke Felder but I don't really have the ability to put the crosscut fence in the front position. I only have the retaining bars, etc. for the fence in the rear position.

It shouldn't matter. The fence is in the rear position in the video but it could work in the front too, just not quite as handy to pull the slider rather than push it. Dave

[Robert LaPlaca]

Joe discovered a video on you tube that is worth watching concerning narrow rips. Just key in Fritz and Franz and a bunch of videos come up but one of the first is about 9 minutes of ripping on a Martin with a jig. Dave

Wow that video is wonderful.. I have often said to myself, I think I would love to trade my Unisaw for a European slider, but I use my Uni 99% of the time for solid wood processing, the only sheet goods I process are for templates and jigs.. But I keep reading that for my use a traditional cabinet saw is a better machine for me.. Even a salesman for a very expensive slider said that a cabinet saw is better for my uses.. The video really now has confirmed some of my suspicions..

[Peter Aeschliman]

I don't think it really matters whether the green stuff is sticky- you can see in the video that he's using his right hand to push the slider forward and his left hand to apply opposing force to pinch the workpiece in the jig. Obviously air clamps would be even better, but this is a pretty simple solution.

Even better would be a slightly beveled edge where the green stuff goes. This would hold the workpiece down a little bit as well as it gets pinched between the two pieces of the jig.

[Kevin Nathanson]

Loved the video. I just made one of these tonight after watching it, and it works really well on my Felder K700s.

I used 1/8" cork as an edge material; it grips very well, but is thin enough that deflection is not an issue. I have air clamps, and I just use those to hold down the two parts of the jig. I register the "front" jig with one of the stops on the crosscut fence, and the "rear" jig with a dado-attached 90º fence that drops down over the outer edge of the slider. (That way I didn't need to mess with creating an accurate "filler strip" for the groove in the slide. Given the oddly-shaped profile of the Felder slot, that's harder to do than it sounds...)

I was able to easily, repeatedly (and safely!) create 1/8" edge banding off of a piece of ~3" wide hard maple; could not have easily done that without the jig!

K

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That is a clever video. I'm making one too!

[Jim Becker]

I am SO building that jig the very next time I'm in the shop! Wow...what an incredible and versatile method!

[Al Bacon]

Just built one last night and it works great. I used non-slip tape on the face to hold even if I have trapped the piece on an angle. I have an Osborne miter gage and that is what was included with it so I figured why not. I trapped a piece to test it on an angle and it held perfectly. I really like his handle though. :)

Al

[Jordan Lane]

I'd love to see a picture of that Kevin i have the exact same saw

[Jery Madigan]

I have a Minimax with the 5.5' slider. The Fritz and Franz looks secure enough that I bet I could rip 5+ feet, flip the board and rip 5 more feet using the fence to set up spacing. 10+ ft of ripping capacity. This would probably only work if the cut on the right side of the blade is small so that almost all of the board is on the slider avoiding losing the 90 degree cut.

[David Kumm]

I have a Minimax with the 5.5' slider. The Fritz and Franz looks secure enough that I bet I could rip 5+ feet, flip the board and rip 5 more feet using the fence to set up spacing. 10+ ft of ripping capacity. This would probably only work if the cut on the right side of the blade is small so that almost all of the board is on the slider avoiding losing the 90 degree cut.

Depends on the table. Adjust it to .002 and it doesn't matter. Dave

[Kevin Nathanson]

My version on my K700s:

Overview of the parts:
253665

The 'wedge stick' detached from the velcro on the front jig: (Patience; all shall be explained in due time...)
253666

Front jig ready to work, held down with air clamp:
253667

Rear jig in position, but not yet secured with wedge stick: (Note the guide strip over the outer edge of the slide which aligns everything correctly)
253668

Wedge stick, which forces the rear jig to stay square to the slide, and locks it into place; no need for clamps to hold it:
253669

With the cork edging on the 'jaws' of the jig, even the angle/taper cuts stay in position; this makes it through the blade without moving at all:
253670

Wish I could say that I thought of this, but that's not stopping me from using it. It works great, especially for making accurate 'to the mark' cuts, which was really difficult before. One thing to remember is that if you are keeping the offcut piece (the part to the right of the blade), you must allow for kerf thickness in your measurement.

BTW, before everyone asks, I stole the red handle off of a coping jig for a router table that I have never used.

K

[Jordan Lane]

thanks Kevin!!!!

[Jim Becker]

Kevin, I'm curious...why didn't you utilize the center channel on the wagon for the rear jig guide rail to slide in?

[Jordan Lane]

i agree Jim when the jig hits the wagon it wont be able to secure small pieces but its a cool jig none the less :)

[Kevin Nathanson]

Jim,

The channel on my saw has a pretty wonky profile to it that doesn't really work well for ensuring no movement. It has a "choke point" at the top that doesn't have very much meat to it, so when you cut something to drop into that slot, it wobbles and rattles.

I guess I could make something that tightens (like in t-track) but then I would have to slide it in from the end, which is ALSO difficult due to the black plastic grab piece on the end of the slide, as there is not much real estate around that to feed a clamp piece into the slide, and I would have to take off my air clamp every time as well.

Conversely, by using the outer edge I was able to use a wedge to hold the whole thing in place, and there is more support out there (although STILL not actually a "square" edge) to put the guide against.

Also, I'm not sure where the post went, but someone asked why I don't just use the rip fence for measuring, as opposed to allowing for the kerf width in my calcs, which is a great question. The answer is twofold. I usually do use the fence, but when the offcut gets closer than ~1" to the blade, my fence won't get any closer.

Of course, that's because I have a TigerStop electronic fence, and it is limited so that it doesn't go crashing into the blade guard if I fat finger an entry into its keypad.

I know, you all feel sorry for me now that you know I'm saddled with a fence that is repeatable to the thousandth of an inch and that I never have to walk around the saw to adjust. It's just one of many burdens I have to bear in life.

Really, I'll be fine.

;-)

K

[Jordan Lane]

I am so jealous ken :)

[Jordan Lane]

I mean Kev

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Kevin, somebody has to do it, I'm glad you are up to the task!

[Gregory Gurka]

What's up with that saw??? Bad Blade , Motor messed up -- No Power ?? That was painful to listen too. greg

[Mike Konobeck]

Following up on this thread, I had to make one of the jigs Kevin posted pictures of. I made some modifications. Added Incra T-Track Plus to each with stops. I bought the Woodpeckers flip stops but they are not good for this application and will have to get some different ones or make some better ones. The other thing I am going to add is a vertical piece of phenolic faced bb between the handle and blade. Just a little added safety. Tested it out and don't know how I got by without it. Have about $60 in materials and 3-4 hours time into it and I could have got by cheaper had I not been in such a hurry to get it done.

256555256556256557256558

Here is a video. Sorry for the quality. The mount was not very stable.


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwS1FKgApVgwR3c2cEpmMnFkU3M/edit?usp=sharing

[Jeff Monson]

Mike, I cant get your attachments to open?

[Mike Konobeck]

How about now? Sorry about the orientation. Not sure why they are turned 90 deg. They are not oriented that way in the original. Does the link to the movie work?

[David Wong]

Mike, Your pictures and movie link work fine now. Very clever - sort of a built in parallel jig. Looks like you used sand paper on the faces for traction.

[Jim Becker]

Wow, Mike Knobeck...great execution! You have my mind spinning with even more ideas now... :o

[Peter Aeschliman]

Darn it, I want a slider now. Oh well!

[Mike Konobeck]

Thanks guys.

The jaws are lined with a thin cork attached with double sided tape. I used a thicker rubber on another set I made but not necessary. PSA backed sandpaper or sandpaper attached with double sided tape would work too.

If you really wanted to make this into a parallel jig then you could easily add an Incra jig to an aluminum extension hanging off the slider. I thought about it very seriously as I have the Incra jig on my router table and could probably just buy a new carriage and slide the 17" extension out of the one on the router table and slide it in the saw carriage. Hard to explain but basically just have something more precise than the two scales. The other thing that might be better is to use HDPE or something harder for the runners. It fits perfectly now but UHMW plastics are not optimal for this application.

[Bill Adamsen]

Great video and I love the term Fritz and Franz! I use a conceptually similar Fritz and Franz setup for finger joints on the slider. I use it with the slider locked and just slide the block. No doubt it is not CE approved. But conceptually allowed me to "decommission" the Unisaw. My slider ... a Knapp 8' 410 ... is just too short to use for those blocks for a full sheet. But it's a great jig and I'm making one as soon as I get back out to the shop.

[howard s hanger]

great idea but I'm not sure I can adapt it to my Hammer. I don't have the outrigger table where I could move the crosscut fence to the front. Maybe I could use the eccentric clamp instead to hold the front piece down where I normally have a ripping shoe. Worth trying I think.

[Joe Jensen]

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm really confused about ripping on a true slider.

The straight-line rip is simple to understand. Obviously this is a huge benefit of a slider. But as another poster said, what about the second rip cut (the one parallel to the straight-line rip)?

I watched the video posted earlier (the one with the air clamps). I understand how you can rip two parallel sides on a plywood sheet- this is a case where your shorter dimension, which you cut at 90 degrees to the straight-line rip, is still long enough to get a good reference edge against the fence. If the cross cut is 90 degrees to the straight line rip, and if the second rip cut is 90 degrees to the freshly cut cross-cut side, then of course it stands to reason that the second rip cut will be parallel to the first rip cut.

But can somebody please explain to me how you would make the second rip cut an 8 foot long, 8 inch wide piece of 8/4 hardwood without using the rip fence? Are there jigs for the sliding table that somehow ensures that you get a parallel rip cut?

I see safety touted as a huge benefit of these saws, but the most dangerous cuts in terms of amputations are rip cuts (where your hands are closer to the blade). If you have to use the rip fence in this case, how is a slider in any way safer or as safe as a sawstop in terms of amputations?

I love the idea of sliders, but I can't get past this issue. I keep seeing posts where people say sliders are just as safe as sawstops, but I don't understand how that claim is possible.

there are at least 3 ways to rip with a slider saw. Where do you stand to rip on a cabinet saw? If you stand to the right if the rip fence you can do it the same way with a slider. This is what I do most often. The other way I rip when I want incredible precision is to use the slide with an accessory for parallel cuts. I made my own. The 3rd way is to stand to the left of the slider and to reach across the blade. Pretty dangerousness so I don't do it.

Imagine pushing the slider all the way towards the back of the saw so it's flush with the front of the cast iron saw too. Now it's just like ripping on a cabinet saw. Sliders were designed to cut long very straight cuts when stock is clamped to the slide. And to cut perfect 90 degree cuts on large pieces. They were not designed for improved rim ping. That's what a straight line rip saw is for.

[Chris Parks]

great idea but I'm not sure I can adapt it to my Hammer. I don't have the outrigger table where I could move the crosscut fence to the front. Maybe I could use the eccentric clamp instead to hold the front piece down where I normally have a ripping shoe. Worth trying I think.

Thread from the dead time. Howard, I too have a Hammer K3 slider with no outrigger table and I too wanted to put the rip fence at the front of the table to use the F&F jig. It can be done and I ordered today the same stops as are on the rear of the table and with those installed at the front of the table the fence will go straight on. The screw stop in the middle channel is drilled but not threaded for the stop screw but that is a five minute job at best. Having the fence at the front makes more sense to me for a number of reasons especially when the table is loaded with a sheet and I don't have to crawl under the sheet to turn on the saw. Also the full stroke of the table can also be used which is another plus. I have looked at the F&F video a few times and it just occurred to me it is selling a kit, some are thicker than others!

[Jim Andrew]

I got almost all the options, and delivered it was almost 7000. 79x48. The crosscutting is awesome. I got the outrigger standard with the size. Would not buy the clamp again, the Kreg automatic clamps work great on the slider, with a piece of acrylic to fit in the gap. Ripping is so straight with the slider, just rip and glue, no gaps.

[Chris Parks]

Jim, I have never used a clamp on mine as I wanted to use the method shown in the video already linked in this thread. I finally did some homework and figured out that the cross cut fence can be at either end of the table to suit whatever you operation you are doing. I didn't bother with the outrigger as I doubt that I have the strength to get a full sheet onto it due to shoulder problems, I rough cut a sheet in half on the floor then lift that onto the table and trim the edges all round using the cross cut fence.

[Jim Andrew]

Chris, as far as handling full sheets, I have a pallet rack in the corner behind my saw, and I built a shop cart that I can slide a sheet flat onto that is about 1/2" higher than the tablesaw. I slide the sheet off the rack onto the cart, roll the cart up behind the saw, and slide the sheet onto the tablesaw. Sometimes I just leave it there while I make the first cut. I have back issues, and find lifting to be a pain, so can understand your issue.