Hammer, Sawstop or Grizzly TS ?- aka not another TS thread!

[Charlie Watson]

Sorry folks but yes this is another request for opinions on table saws. I've read the recent posts on sawstop, both for and against. Here is how I rank them in my mind and how I'm leaning and wanted to get input.

#1 Hammer K3 Winner - Everything I've seen and read has been positive but granted, I haven't found that much on it. I'll see it live next week but so far it has the lead in my thinking. Looks to be a very high quality saw. What can you guys tell me about Hammer and this saw?

#2 SawStop PCS - Lots of positives, plenty of lovers (and haters), I like the safety feature. Maybe a few quality issues here and there

#3 Grizzly - Not sure which model yet. Seems to be a very good saw with great customer service. Very reasonably priced. Some potential quality issues out of the box (I know many have had great experiences)

This is less about the cost differential and more about quality. I'm looking for a high quality machine that is very accurate. I think these are all grouped pretty close together but I give the edge to Hammer because of quality.

Your thoughts?

[David Kumm]

Tough to make a direct quality comparison as the machines are apples and oranges. A stationary saw with a one piece table allows for a heavier and easier to manufacture trunnion system than a slider. With a slider it is all about the table accuracy. How does it stay in position with wood and sheet goods dropped on it. How does the crosscut fence stay at 90 over and over and particularly when taken on and off a dozen times a day. The way you use the two types of saws are so different that you need to assess the way you intend to work and then decide which quality of slider or which quality of traditional you want. Quality always costs money. All may be good for their price but a 2000 grizzly won't be a 3000 sawstop any more than a SS can be a 10K Northfield #4- the last US traditional saw. A Hammer is a great saw for the money but an entry level slider. The sliding mechanisms get better with price. For a traditional, if someone can tell you who has the best motor, electrics, bearings, the finest grain heavily ribbed cast iron and thickest steel you will know who makes the best quality saw. You really need to look at them both with a machine guy to judge. Even so it may turn out they all cut the same. Dave

[mreza Salav]

As Dave said these are different classes of machines. Grizzly has a big line and you haven't specified what type you are talking about.
A slider is good at cross cutting and if you go to a bigger slider you can safely rip pretty much everything without getting anywhere close to the blade (using straight line rip).
On smaller sliders you might still need to rip using the fence. Among the options you have listed, if money isn't an issue I'd pick either Hammer or SS depending on the type of work you do.
Both are quality machines and pretty much everybody who has any of them is quite happy with them; both are safer and more modern saws.

[Mark Carlson]

Ten years ago I was in the market. I started out wanting a Unisaw, then a Powermatic 66 and finally bought a General 650. So I know what your going through. If I was to upgrade it would be a European style like the Hammer or the SawStop. Everything I read is the SawStop is a high quality saw and I'd want the brake feature. If you like sliders the Hammer is a good one, so I've heard. No direct experience. I do have a Hammer 31 jointer/planner and wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again. Getting a new saw of this type is really cool. Have fun.

~mark

[Hank Hill]

I'm about to make a sliding table saw purchase in the next couple of days and I've been riding in the same boat as you. I started out considering the SawStop and have completely abandoned that idea, as I'd rather get more out of my saw than an expensive safety mechanism for the price. The Grizzly entry level unit has a great price but the quality just isn't there. Now I'm lost in the world of Mini-Max and Felder but the long lead times on units like the Hammer and having a hard time buying blades pretty much ruled that out.

[James Baker SD]

Now I'm lost in the world of Mini-Max and Felder but the long lead times on units like the Hammer and having a hard time buying blades pretty much ruled that out.
The lead time goes by faster than you would think. Don't let that stop you from getting the saw you want.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm pretty biased, just to get that out of the way right up front, I wouldn't trade my Felder for anything else without a fight. I can only say great things about Felder, and by association, Hammer's customer support and quality. It should be, because you pay a premium for the machines, but you get something that no American style saw can offer. It takes a commitment to a different working style to use a slider effectively, but once you buy in, it's a light bulb moment.

Most companies will make their blades fit the saws. Forrest does, I use them, as well as a couple Felder and Hammer blades. The pin configuration is for braking. Hit the off button and the blades stop right now. I would guess 3 seconds to full stop on my machine. Scoring units are not an after thought. If you judge the amount of cast iron in a unisaw trunion as a lot in a saw, prepare to be wowed by the Felder, and I think Hammer designs. Everything is just more refined on the Euro sliders. Kind of like comparing a 70's era muscle car to your favorite modern European sportscar. The muscle car is a one trick pony, the DBS or whatever is nicely refined to handle elegantly in multiple situations.

The lead time on the machines can be long. You can buy a stock machine at times though, and significantly shorten the time. If you choose not to, the machine is made to your spec when you order it, and there are a pile of options.

You can guess which way I'd recommend, but do yourself a favor and see one in person first. The machines are great salesmen.

[John Piwaron]

Had the sales people been a little quicker, had tool availability been better, I'd have bought one. Maybe that'll improve eventually.

Sawstop is an excellent saw. Ignoring anything other than the quality of the merchandise, this saw is going to do what you or anyone else needs a saw to do.

I went with a Delta Unisaw, the new design. People talk about parts availability in the future, but honestly, the top of Delta's line is so robust, I doubt that much of anything is going to wear out or break in it for many, many years. That's a statement that's true of most manufacturer's best offerings.

[johnny means]

I have Hammer saw/shaper and a Sawstop ICS. IMO, the Sawstop is a better built machine and will withstand a lifetime of abuse. On the other hand, the Hammer is a fine entry level machine with much more capability. Personally, i feel as though comparing the two is like comparing an f250 to a minivan. Two completely different machines. The first thing that needs to be determined is what your doing with it, hauling kids or hauling lumber.

[Ole Anderson]

I have had the G1023 for 15 years and never had a problem, although I am running an HTC fence (no longer available). For the price of Hammer or Saw stop you can get two or three Grizzly machines. Something to think about, although I hear there are folks that don't need any more machines...

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm about to make a sliding table saw purchase in the next couple of days and I've been riding in the same boat as you. I started out considering the SawStop and have completely abandoned that idea, as I'd rather get more out of my saw than an expensive safety mechanism for the price. The Grizzly entry level unit has a great price but the quality just isn't there. Now I'm lost in the world of Mini-Max and Felder but the long lead times on units like the Hammer and having a hard time buying blades pretty much ruled that out.

Hank, any saw supplier will supply blades for your Felder/Hammer machine, they aren't hard to find at all.

When I bought mine I had most of my old blades bored out for under $20 per blade.

regards, Rod

[Jeff Monson]

Your thoughts?

My thoughts would be 1st and foremost, what type of woodworking are you into? Do you mainly build furniture and crafts? Do you do alot of cabinet work? Having owned both a slider and cabinet saw, I can tell you they are different birds. Each is better than the other in certain area's. You really cant compare the machines as its not apples to apples, you should decide on the fruit you like best, then decide on the variety.

[Hank Hill]

In reality, I'm sure the little Grizzly G0623X with a 5' slide would do everything I asked it to do but I've vowed to always try and avoid cheap tools, even though $3k is only cheap in perspective to the alternatives. I've found some owners that are happy with the saw, but only after they fought it for awhile in tweaks and adjustments.

I'm sure you're right James about the time melting by but the Felder/Hammer sales staff have stopped returning calls and e-mails so I'm not going to bother any further with them. The Hammer K3 series had a nice capability for the price point but the options compound the price quickly.

I'm now considering the Mini-Max S315 Elite S, which is overkill for what I'm going to be doing, but I can get a pretty good discount on one locally that was a display model. I won't even be able to use the full 10.5' stroke today and Ole Anderson is right that I could buy two or three Grizzly's for the same price. I dont have as many 1" arbor blades so I'd still have to fork out for some new blades with a MM purchase, as most of what I have is the typical 5/8" arbor.

My decision is stuck between two roads: take the value path with a practical Grizzly for broke and get the last saw of my days at three times the weight, price, and quality. It's hardly even fair to compare the two and I can't take a deterministic approach, as I'll be ultimately working with solid and sheet stock in an avid hobbyist fashion. Argh!

[Hank Hill]

I guess I should ask if there anyone who's made the move from a lower end unit like a Grizzly or maybe even Hammer to a Felder/Mini-Max? Even if you weren't in the shop 40 hours a week, would you still do it again?

[Dave Novak]

I guess I should ask if there anyone who's made the move from a lower end unit like a Grizzly or maybe even Hammer to a Felder/Mini-Max? Even if you weren't in the shop 40 hours a week, would you still do it again?

I bought a Minimax CU 300 Smart Combo. Wouldn't hesitate to do it again and will never own a traditional cabinet saw again. I've retired my miter saws as they just aren't necessary anymore.

[Rich Riddle]

Sorry folks but yes this is another request for opinions on table saws. I've read the recent posts on sawstop, both for and against. Here is how I rank them in my mind and how I'm leaning and wanted to get input.

#1 Hammer K3 Winner - Everything I've seen and read has been positive but granted, I haven't found that much on it. I'll see it live next week but so far it has the lead in my thinking. Looks to be a very high quality saw. What can you guys tell me about Hammer and this saw?

If you are going to the woodworking show, I went to the one in Kansas City. I didn't see any dust and stood around for quite some time to talk to the representatives. They were occupied with tire kickers for hours though that's not their fault (one man talked to them for several hours alone from the time I got there to the time I left). I didn't see any power cords to their units, so it's unlikely they turned them on. I was able to walk up to the machines and look at them first-hand (the representatives nodded their heads and waved). They appear to be very well-made machines and sturdier than my Unisaw and the Sawstop that was at the show. I have seen Grizzly models and they are better made than those as well.

The Hammer will cost the most to operate. Blades are different and a bit more expensive. Right now you can get one at a reduced price through their website. I did hear him tell the one tire kicker that the shipping was $100 less through the show, BUT all the vendors there were charging sales tax (perhaps that was only for items purchased there). The prices listed on the N4400 bandsaw is the same price listed under the website promotion price. If sales tax had to be paid at the show, it would actually cost less to order via the Internet. If not, it would be $100 less through the show. This saw is produced in Austria.


The Grizzly will be the least expensive to operate. Members who own Grizzly tools say the customer service is superb. Their table saws are made in China. This will be your least expensive model at about 50% the price of the others. As a side note, Roland Johnson told me at the Kansas City show that if someone had to give him one 16" to 20" band saw, it would be difficult for him not to pick the Grizzly saw he reviewed for Fine Woodworking. Apparently, the editor of the magazine has that as his band saw.

I have used a Saw Stop at the woodworking shop on a military base (special services). At that time, the shop had two or three of them and two or three Unisaws. The Unisaw models were always occupied when the shop was busy. There was no scientific pole to figure out why. The Saw Stop is a set price no matter where you buy it. You can sign up for a drawing to win one at the woodworking show; if you do the sales department has all your contact information and permission to contact you. The Saw Stop price hovers near the price of the Hammer. This saw is made in Taiwan.

I choose to use the Gripper TM 200 when performing delicate rip cuts on the table saw; those will be a show special at the woodworking show if you are attending.

After seeing at least all three saws, I believe the Hammer looks the highest quality. There's not much difference in quality between Saw Stop and Grizzly, but the Saw Stop is slightly higher quality. You have to determine if that slightly higher quality and the safety features are worth 100% increase over the Grizzly. The same holds true for the Hammer.

[Rick McQuay]

A Grizzly doesn't really belong in the comparison, not that there is anything wrong with it but the SS and Hammer are leagues above it in terms of finish and quality. The Delta Unisaw is still made in the USA and is an outstanding saw by all accounts. Everytime Delta is sold there are rumblings about parts availability but in over a decade of owning a Delta I've never had to buy parts for it. Considering they are made in America then I doubt that parts for new saws are going to be difficult to obtain should you need them for some reason. Taking money out of the equation, choosing between a SS and Hammer the Hammer would win everytime. The videos on that machine are amazing. I might lean toward the Unisaw as I like the idea of keeping Americans employed and supporting American manufacturing, what little is left.

[mreza Salav]

I have Hammer saw/shaper and a Sawstop ICS. IMO, the Sawstop is a better built machine and will withstand a lifetime of abuse. On the other hand, the Hammer is a fine entry level machine with much more capability. Personally, i feel as though comparing the two is like comparing an f250 to a minivan. Two completely different machines. The first thing that needs to be determined is what your doing with it, hauling kids or hauling lumber.

you are the 1st I have seen to own both and be able to make comparisons. I have ICS SS as well and think it's a very well engineered saw on all accounts.

[ian maybury]

Can't compare with the others, but have a Hammer K3 Perform with an 8ft slider.

Like all these things in woodworking there's a scarily large number of price point/specification options out there, and in a slider that's particularly true. Paying more (potentially up to multiples more) tends to buy more features, a stronger/stiffer structure and hopefully more accurately manufactured/longer lasting parts/greater accuracy in use.

My sense of the K3 is that it's well capable of working to professional standards - mine has proven to be capable of accurate set up and seems to both perform that way and hold its settings. It's probably not a saw to put in a commercial shop where rough treatment, continuous use and/or heavy work use could cause some problems.

I love the slider, it makes for very controlled (= safe, accurate and repeatable) working - even if the methods are sometimes a little different (a lot of what might have been done of the rip fence gets done off the slider) to a table saw.

Two cautions. They need accurate setting up, so check that whatever slider (if you go for one) tends to be well set up as delivered - unless you're good at that sort of thing. Be aware too that most need some fixturing/work holding kit which costs extra. (e.g. hold down clamps, maybe parallel bars and a slider side extension table)

Slider length is an issue that gets raised all the time. Long sliders take up up a lot of space, but even if you typically work with smaller parts it can be very convenient to have a slider long enough to be able to leave say two or more set ups (the full length cross cut fence, and a short one) in situ without having to keep on removing/replacing/setting them up again...

[Mark Denovich]

I have a new Grizzly 1023RL and a 1995 Minimax Lab 30 (a sliding table saw, shaper, jointer/planer combo). I would say that it's perfectly valid to consider (some) Grizzly against the likes of the Hammer and SawStop. The Grizzly 1023RL is smooth as can be, solid, simple, quiet... BUT... even though my MiniMax is old, a bit beat-up (it was $600 on craigslist!), not as smooth, and is annoying to adjust blade height/angle, however, it's almost always the saw I use. There is no comparison when it comes to sliders and traditional saws. I love straight-line ripping on the slider (who needs a jointer)... it makes fantastically accurate crosscuts, and the scoring blade makes cutting ply a chip-free operation. I love the safety inherent to slider mechanism.

(FWIW: I also own a Hammer 4400N bandsaw and a ton of Festool stuff too.)

[Hank Hill]

Two cautions. They need accurate setting up, so check that whatever slider (if you go for one) tends to be well set up as delivered - unless you're good at that sort of thing. Be aware too that most need some fixturing/work holding kit which costs extra. (e.g. hold down clamps, maybe parallel bars and a slider side extension table)
That's my struggle with the Grizzly. I just can't make myself believe accuracy was a priority but I've seen a few threads where Shiraz has said this isn't true but who knows in the long run at this point.


Slider length is an issue that gets raised all the time. Long sliders take up up a lot of space, but even if you typically work with smaller parts it can be very convenient to have a slider long enough to be able to leave say two or more set ups (the full length cross cut fence, and a short one) in situ without having to keep on removing/replacing/setting them up again...
That's a very good point.

[ian maybury]

Typo, sorry

[scott spencer]

I suspect that when most people dismiss Grizzly as lower end, they're referring to a $1500 G1023 or a G0690, as opposed to one of their $3K models, of which I know nothing....just wondering if anyone has experience with Griz's upper end.

$3345 shipped:
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g0623x3.jpg

[Hank Hill]

I suspect that when most people dismiss Grizzly as lower end, they're referring to a $1500 G1023 or a G0690, as opposed to one of their $3K models, of which I know nothing....just wondering if anyone has experience with Griz's upper end.

$3345 shipped:
That is their lower end. The G0623X and G0700 are economy (European design) sliders. Their upper end sliders go all the way to $12k. It might not seem like it based on a traditional American table saw but $3k doesn't buy much new.

[David Kumm]

Grizzly makes a small slider that looks interesting. The model pictured has legs in front and back. In my world they would be in the way, not allow the machine to be moved, and indicate the table bed is not robust enough to be unsupported as on other saws. MM used to make a similar design but gave it up long ago. I have looked at several big Chinese sliders made in the plant Biesse owns. they all sell for 10-12K. In general they all appear very heavily built although the castings and details appear rougher and less refined. I couldn't see the motors and don't usually like Chinese electrics. In fairness, the Italians have been known to stick some chinese electrics in some of their components. Asian sliders might be good machines but used sliders are so cheap you can buy a Format, Altendorf, SCMI or even a Martin for less. Assuming you are avoiding the electronic programming. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Hank, any saw supplier will supply blades for your Felder/Hammer machine, they aren't hard to find at all.

When I bought mine I had most of my old blades bored out for under $20 per blade.

regards, Rod

Amana makes them too, they are pretty well distributed here in the US, we use them where I work on a small Griggio slider with brake and pin system. 30MM bore with the two holes for the pins on the arbor nut. You won't find them at the home depot, but they aren't hard to come by at all. I actually bought one on a close out from a local amana dealer which had a 5/8" bushing pressed in for my PM66.

[Mike Heidrick]

....Griz's upper end.

$3345 shipped

Not even close. Take it you don't get the catalog yet??

[scott spencer]

Just trying to keep the price within the same range of others he's looking at....

[Charlie Watson]

well I think I will go with the Hammer. I've priced it out and it's not cheap but working with quality tools contributes to the enjoyment I get from the craft. I will pair it with a Hammer A3-31. Thanks all for your input!

[johnny means]

Grizzly makes a small slider that looks interesting. The model pictured has legs in front and back. In my world they would be in the way, not allow the machine to be moved, and indicate the table bed is not robust enough to be unsupported as on other saws. MM used to make a similar design but gave it up long ago. I have looked at several big Chinese sliders made in the plant Biesse owns. they all sell for 10-12K. In general they all appear very heavily built although the castings and details appear rougher and less refined. I couldn't see the motors and don't usually like Chinese electrics. In fairness, the Italians have been known to stick some chinese electrics in some of their components. Asian sliders might be good machines but used sliders are so cheap you can buy a Format, Altendorf, SCMI or even a Martin for less. Assuming you are avoiding the electronic programming. Dave

Actually, the legs are there to increase the footprint of the saw not to support the table . Without additional sport sliders would be extremely tippy. With the table fully extended, I could use my weight to get a 2000# SCMI tilting.

[Rich Riddle]

well I think I will go with the Hammer. I've priced it out and it's not cheap but working with quality tools contributes to the enjoyment I get from the craft. I will pair it with a Hammer A3-31. Thanks all for your input!That's a great choice for you. Right now they have promotional pricing. You can get it at the show as well. Good luck.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Congrats Charlie! Post some pics when you get it please, and enjoy!

[ed vitanovec]

These machines are in a broad range price and quality. I purchased a Grizzly slider and have been happy with it, I think the slider adds a lot of safety to a table saw.

[David Kumm]

Actually, the legs are there to increase the footprint of the saw not to support the table . Without additional sport sliders would be extremely tippy. With the table fully extended, I could use my weight to get a 2000# SCMI tilting.

That still makes it a lighter than normal saw. Most short stroke sliders don't need them as they aren't intended for multiple full sheets of ply or mdf. I'm overweight at 200 lbs and can't tip my 2000 lb scmi anywhere. Not saying not to buy the machine, just not the best way to deal with the load issue. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Actually, the legs are there to increase the footprint of the saw not to support the table . Without additional sport sliders would be extremely tippy. With the table fully extended, I could use my weight to get a 2000# SCMI tilting.

That hasn't been my experience with short sliders, or the long sliders, which have a cabinet that's long in that dimension.

I think the Grizzly issue is that wasn't designed from the ground up as a slider. A friend of mine has one, he's pleased with the machine, however the legs would be in the way in my small shop...........Rod.

[Hank Hill]

I think the Grizzly issue is that wasn't designed from the ground up as a slider. A friend of mine has one, he's pleased with the machine, however the legs would be in the way in my small shop...........Rod.
Very well said. I'm mostly a lurker and I've noticed Rod is generally spot on with his postings so take any advice this man gives!

[Charlie Watson]

Agreed Hank - I'm in email contact with Rod and he was the one that got me on the trail of the Hammer line in the first place!

[mreza Salav]

Agreed Hank - I'm in email contact with Rod and he was the one that got me on the trail of the Hammer line in the first place!

Be careful, he gets a 10% royalty from every machine Felder sells :D:D

Just kidding, he sure is one fellow that I'm in agreement with in many topics, and not just Hammer or Felder related ;)

[Rod Sheridan]

;)
Be careful, he gets a 10% royalty from every machine Felder sells :D:D

Just kidding, he sure is one fellow that I'm in agreement with in many topics, and not just Hammer or Felder related ;)

Pure urban myth.......................It's 15%;)

[Charlie Watson]

eh, I woulda given you 20%!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Just kidding, he sure is one fellow that I'm in agreement with in many topics, and not just Hammer or Felder related ;)


;)

Pure urban myth.......................It's 15%;)

Those Canadians all stick together!:eek::rolleyes::D

[Steve Rozmiarek]

;)

Pure urban myth.......................It's 15%;)

You only get 15% Rod??? ;)

[John P Clark]

Good choice - I bought the K3 Winner 3 years ago, sold my 1985 unisaw and have never looked back. I used to own a cabinet shop in a previous life, and respect the quality of this saw. My two cents