Thinking of upgrading to SawStop

[Denny Rice]

I am in the process of looking to purchase of a new cabinet table saw. Late last year I was at a woodworkers convention and seen the SawStop up front and personal for the first time. I didn't give it much thought at the time, but the more time I've spent doing research on the saw, the more I like it. The construction seems sturdy, the finish on the saw (power coated) will last a lifetime. I would like members of Sawmill Creek to give me their 2 cents. Why or why not they like or dislike the saw. Thanks!:)

[Peter Aeschliman]

I've had a PCS for 2 years or so now.

I absolutely love the saw.

Cons:
-Expensive
-chipboard/laminate fence faces are hit and miss. Lots of complaints that they aren't straight. The tubes are, but the plywood faces often need replacing.
-the dust collecting blade guard is very good generally, but I have two complaints: 1) when trimming an edge (meaning, the offcut side of the blade isn't buried in the cut) most of the dust escapes. 2) when you have really narrow off-cuts, they can get trapped between the blade and the guard. I did have one kick back on me because of this, but I saw it coming so i had plenty of time to make sure I was standing to the side.

Pros:
-safety
-extremely well made
-the best un-packaging experience I've ever had.
-aligned from the factory
-heavy, durable, etc etc

There hasn't been a single moment of regret, even after the high price. I'm not rich by any means, so it's not as if I didn't notice the change in my bank account. But even then, no regrets.

[Frank Stolten]

As someone who previously had a serious (and very expensive) table saw accident before SawStop was on the market I bought one (actually my wife insisted I buy it) as soon as it became available. In strictly economic terms it was a no-brainer and cost a fraction of what my previous accident cost. Even more important is the safety aspect which is just too important to pass up. The cost differential was easy to justify and once I became fully aware of what a high quality tool it was I never gave the cost a second thought. I highly recommend it.

[Brent VanFossen]

I have the 5hp Industrial. It's more saw than I intended to buy, but it was used in excellent condition for less than I planned to spend on the 3hp PCS.

It's just an all-around pleasure to use. Safety benefits aside, it's first rate. Runs smoothly. No complaints at all.

Negatives? None.

[Alan Lightstone]

Pros: All of the ones Peter said. I can't emphasize the amazing un-packaging experience enough. They can retire the trophy on instructions, packaging, organization, etc. I took pictures and sent them to friends.


Cons: Wish I had bought the ICS or PCS.
Expensive - true, but that's relative. Fingers and doctors/hospitals cost money too.
Dust collection is not awesome with the Contractor's saw out of the box. I built a cabinet and it's 90% better, but probably not as good as their cabinet saws.

Fence was straight for me. Even better now with Wixey DRO attached and General micro-adjuster.

[Rich Riddle]

I have used them side-by-side before in a woodworking shop owned by special services (military). After that, I chose a Delta Unisaw. Most of the patrons of the shop also used the Unisaws and not the Saw Stop models. I found the Unisaw a more accurate saw with a better fence system. The Unisaw also seemed manufactured better. You have more limited choices of blades and cannot use painted blades on the Saw Stop.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

I've got the sawstop. Yes it was expensive, but I needed to upgrade my saw anyway. I thought it might be gimmicky, or poorly made. I was wrong. After seeing it in person-I think it is a very good quality saw. I didn't bother comparing to other saw of it's caliber-as I love having all ten fingers. I also have other people using my saw, and I don't want to worry about it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Pro...........Safety, quality of saw

Con..........It's still just a cabinet saw.

If you're safety concious and use the guards/splitter/riving knife all the time on your present saw, consider a Euro slider like the Hammer K3.

I have the B3, it replaced a General 650, you couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.............Rod.

[Mark Ashmeade]

It was the same price as a Unisaw (3HP PCS). Very little to choose between them in quality of construction, ease of use. The Unisaw had front controls for bevel, the SS did not. I preferred the blade guard on the SS to the Unisaw. The fence was just about the same, maybe slightly smoother on the SS. In other words, as a cabinet saw, there's nothing between them of significance.

Therefore, the stand-out differentiator has to be the safety feature. One has it, the other doesn't. Game over, decision made.

I've had it six months or so, had a lot of happy shop time using it. No regrets whatsoever. If I had bought the Unisaw, which is a very nice saw, I would have doubt in my mind, given that for the same money, I could have had the safety feature.

I do find it a bit fiddly to change the cartridge for the dado cartridge, but that's fine. It drives me to use my RAS for dadoes, and the SS for grooves only. I much prefer the RAS for that task, as I can see what I am doing more clearly.

Yes, the setup and depackaging exercise was straightforward, and a good indicator of the quality of the machine. Since it only took me one day out of the 20 year life of the saw, I put it with the cost in terms of significance. Neither would be a decision factor, when viewed in terms of how long I plan to own the saw.

I would buy another without a second thought.

[Matt Meiser]

I just moved from a Unisaw to a Sawstop 2 weeks ago. Really nothing to dislike about it so far besides the politics of the company. The latter held me up for maybe the last year or two--I really wanted the saw but didn't want to give them my money. Finally I realized that there's a lot of products I buy (and like) from companies who's politics I don't agree with. For example, I didn't agree with a lot of things Steve Jobs was doing, but still bought plenty of i* devices for my household over several years.

Compared to my old Unisaw, beside the very obvious difference, the only thing that's significantly different is the dust collection below the blade is significantly improved by the shrouded-blade design. Above the blade, seems to be about the same as my Shark Guard--which also didn't get much of anything on a side cut like Peter mentioned with the SS guard. Its the nature of the cut IMHO. When the blade is buried most of that dust gets carried under the table but it can easily escape to the side if exposed. Functionally, a Unisaw is a great saw and the Sawstop is a great saw. That said, the current production, the Unisaw would be the LAST saw I would consider because I just don't believe Delta is going to be with us long--too many bad signs coming from them. The older ones will have abundant parts supply for years to come in the used market.

My fence was straight but I know what Peter is talking about as I had a similar issue with a Biesemeyer.

[Mark Ashmeade]

That's interesting, Matt. I would have the thought the Taiwanese buyout would have protected the company for quite a while. Chang Type Industrial got a foothold in the lucrative US market with an indigenous brand, I think that's something they would like to keep hold of. Looking at WMH's annual report, they make quite a lot of Swiss Francs out of Jet & Powermatic. I would think Chang would do the same. What signs have you seen that they are endangered?

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

I have SS contractor type for last 3-4 years ( bought one of the first when it came on market). Nice saw for hobbyist work, I did add slider from Exaliber, add box under saw for better dust collection.
I am thinking to change for a small slider saw, like Hammer.
By the way -SawStop service is better then any other service I used in my life.

Ed.

[Matt Meiser]

What signs have you seen that they are endangered?

- Parts unavailability, a problem that has been going on for a couple years now with a with a new variation on why and when every few months
- Machine unavailability (though I did just hear that a local Delta shop has a new Unisaw on the showroom floor)
- Refusal to pay rebates unless threatened with legal action

I bought a Delta drill press at the beginning of last year. Its a really nice machine, but I'm hoping i don't live to regret it.

[Matt Meiser]

By the way -SawStop service is better then any other service I used in my life.

I saw this in action on a used saw a friend bought on CL, only to get it home and find out someone basically neutered it. SS was very helpful in getting it back into proper condition. That was a turning point for me in my decision.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Pro...........Safety, quality of saw

Con..........It's still just a cabinet saw.

If you're safety concious and use the guards/splitter/riving knife all the time on your present saw, consider a Euro slider like the Hammer K3.

I have the B3, it replaced a General 650, you couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.............Rod.

I agree with Rod, as usual. A cabinet saw is a cabinet saw. All the quality in the world just means its a cabinet saw that won't need fixed. A Euro slider can actually bring something new to the game. I despise Sawstop's politics, but it's a personal decision.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the SawStop PCS and love it. It's a great saw independent of the safety mechanism. But the safety mechanism was very important in my decision. I know that one day, I'll make a mistake and come in contact with the blade, no matter how safe I try to be. The extra cost of the SawStop was cheap compared to the cost of an injury.

All table saws should have an equivalent safety feature.

Mike

[Patrick McCarthy]

Denny,

I had a PM66, original owner, for approx 8-10 years and loved it, a lot. I liked the Made in America aspect a lot too.

I recently got the 3hp ICS due to the safety factor, but overall have been very impressed with the design and manufacture of the saw . . . the fence is good but there is a little woosh in the middle of the face, but not enough to end the love affair.

The biggest surprise to me was the "why didn't someone think of this sooner?" or, "why didn't my PM66 have this? '
The first was the arbor has a machined slot on the inside of the blade so you can use two wrenches to changes blades; on my 66 i had to block the blade or use the plastic cover (forget the manuf) to hold the blade to undo the nut.
The second, and minute in the big scheme of things, they have a hook to hang the wrenches on . . . ; on the 66 i hung the wrench on the blade height wheel, which got in the way of cranking , , ,
Third is the mobile base has 4 multi directional wheels AND a hydraulic foot pump. I can spin it 360 degrees. The mobile base on the 66 had to be "driven" into position and then locked down. The hydraulic foot pedal has a "down" or "release" lever.

The fit and finish is great. The motor is smooth. The cuts are the same as the 66. I use Forrest blades so the painted blade "issue" is not a factor.

Once i had changed blades and brake cartridges a few times (from regular to dado and back and forth) it became very easy to do. The first two times I was somewhat tentative on the amount of force to use on the brake pin release, but i think it must have had a small burr or something because it is easy enough now.

Overall very happy with it. Also, the phenolic ZCI inserts are nicely made and nicely secured (lock into place), plus easily removed too.

NOt planning on using the airbags in my car, nor the SS brake system, but very happy they are there just in case.

Plus, wife saw it at a WW show and "made" me buy it. Happy wife, happy life."

IF i had to critcize the saw at all, only two things come to mind:
1) The less than perfectly flat surface on the face of the fence . . .which i can change, but why should i have to?; and
2) with all the discussion about dust control and most machines having undersized ports, why didn't they put a 5 inch dust port on it rather than the "standard" 4 inch? It would be much easier for someone to neck-down a 5 to 4, but it would be a major pain for me to open it up to 5" . . . . which i will probably do

[mreza Salav]

cannot use painted blades on the Saw Stop.



respectfully that is not true; if you mean teflon coated blades you can certainly use them and the brake works just fine. It uses a different method of flesh detection if you touch on the side (painted section) of the blade, but still does detect it.

As for the OP quesstion: I have an ICS version and am quite happy with it and will buy it again with no hesitation.

[glenn bradley]

I don't think anyone dislikes the Saw Stop. The saw itself (safety mechanism aside) gets super ratings for quality. I have not acquired a tool that I didn't have to customize in some small way to improve dust collection as well as other tweaks to make the machine "mine". Although I am loath to spend near double what similar machines cost, I am still considering this saw.

[Craig Behnke]

if safety is a major consideration, then i'd say sawstop and a euro style sliding saw are safer than standard cabinet saw's. if safety is the the #1 factor and you aren't going to be the only user, i'd suggest a sawstop.

i recently went thru a similar purchase and considered a euro slider but went with a sawstop. in my situation, while I would be the one using the table saw 99.5% of the time, I have a wife and four daughters (two are teenagers) who actually come out and help me sometimes with certain projects. I went with a sawstop because of the blade stop feature.

Foolishly, I "trust" myself to be safe using a euro style slider, so if I knew i was the only user, I would have purchased one of those. Since others have access to my machines...and may disobey my request to use them ONLY when I am there...I could not live with myself if my wife or teenage kids used it and somehow hurt themselves. another thing is liability...maybe i'm paranoid, but I actually wanted to avoid the 1 in a million situation where one of my kid's boyfriends thought it might be cool to use the machines and wound up getting hurt. I just didn't want that potential liability on my mind.

As far as the quality, it's a solid saw, pretty impressive actually. I don't use the fence, so I can't comment on that. I use an aftermarket fence. no regrets from a hobby woodworker like me.

[John Piwaron]

I made a cabinet saw choice in spring of 2012. I was deciding between a Unisaw, the Sawstop and a slider made by Hammer. The Hammer has a good reputation but it's operation is different from a traditional American cabinet saw. In the end, the fact that I couldn't get a hands on look at one and the long lead time to get one made me give up on that one. The slow sales response didn't help either.

I was able to look hands on at a Sawstop at my local Woodcraft. I think the saw is well constructed and will certainly do the job. I also think it has too many parts. I mean, open the cover and you'll see a lot of things in there. At the time I was very concerned about that. The more stuff in there, the more stuff to go wrong. I was still absorbing the fact that General could not provide me with parts for my then current saw. So I was worried.

What I chose is the most recent version of the Delta Unisaw. I'm satisfied with it. It's great saw, but I can't say it's not without it's quirks. In my experience all devices have their idiosyncrasies. It's got as much power as I think I'll ever need. It's not overly complex, both adjustment wheels are on the front, dust collection works well. Of course, it doesn't have the blade stopping feature of the sawstop, but it's got all the rest. I ordered it from Woodcraft, but 'cause I ordered it online it was up to me to get it into my shop. Let's just say it's heavy. :)

Thinking about the liability point of an earlier poster - unauthorized people using the saw (or other big stationary tools) - I put a lock on all of them. A pad lock. I have the keys with me all the time. That doesn't mean some clever person won't figure out how to use it anyway or remove them. But it does mean that I did everything I could to secure them. I hope that means nobody gets hurt or that a court or insurance doesn't spank me.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have owned my 5hp ICS since 10/2006. It is an awesome machine. I have long since digested the expense. Now it is just a dream saw to own and cut with. No other NA cabinet saw will get me to change. Owning it with a Jessem slider, a bandsaw and a tracksaw, I have not found the need for the space consumption/requirements of a slider saw yet either. I do own a sliding table shaper and can appreciate the slider there but I like seperates. No issues with my fence. I do not own the overblade guard or base as those came latter but seem to be good additions. There is a guy on woodnet that made a ZCI replaceable strip insert for the sawstops and recently he told me they now work with even my older ICS. The brake interface was upgraded as well so if you own an older one then make sure you get the correct one if you replace it. I have never fired mine and do not want to. I do get some dust in my cabinet that I clean out occasionally (blow air in while the DC is on - chips fly up and into the shroud). An ICS is really heavy so consider that if putting one in a basement.

[Prashun Patel]

I love all the obvious things about my SS PCS. Some other things perhaps not mentioned:

Cons:

The dado stack requires a second brake. The perceived hassle of this has caused me to seek other ways to cut dados. Not saying I'm right, just that it's an issue for me.

If you contact an errant miter fence or jig, there's a chance of misfire and ruining a blade and brake. This adds to inconvenience and cost.

Pros:
The riving knife and guard pop in and out without a tool. This makes it super easy and convenient to switch between the two. This has encouraged me to use one or the other with every single cut, which might be more of a safety improvement for me than even the brake.

[Mike Heidrick]

Jack Colliflower is the guy who let me know about the ZCIs being retro fitted.
--------------





From: jcolliflower (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=&User=100052&what=viewmessage&Message=2088637&box=received)



Hi, Mike.
I remember your question and just wanted to let you know that our new design is now compatible with the older SawStops. You can see full specs on the drawing that's at my Amazon site (although none are being sold by me personally right now):
Search for them on amazon. No links here on woodnet.
Reference the CAD drawing in the pictures section.
These can be purchased from Infinity Tools.
Thanks.
Jack

[Matt Meiser]

Here's the link to those on Infinity's site: http://www.infinitytools.com/SawStop-Zero-Clearance-Throat-Plate-With-Two-Inserts/productinfo/100-335/

[Chris Fournier]

I will also chime in on the Euro slider suggestion. It is not a SawStop but it can be significantly safer than a non-SS cabinet saw. The advantages of the slider were far more important to me than the SS brake feature.

I realise that the SS could save a finger or even more and that is positive however I have several other often used pieces of equipment that are also potential flesh eaters. For more than twenty years of WWKg I have been very satisfied with my ability to avoid injury by using time honoured techniques and devices so I don't feel that the safety upgrade is as worthy of my $$$ as the performance/slight safety upgrade of a silder over a cabinet saw.

Regardless a better TS is always a treat. Enjoy your new saw.

[Wade Lippman]

- Machine unavailability (though I did just hear that a local Delta shop has a new Unisaw on the showroom floor)


Last month I ordered Delta DP and explained that I needed it within 3 weeks.
Store got back to me that Delta won't commit to a ship date, but it won't be any time soon.
Cancelled.
They don't seem to want to stay in business.

I just bought a bunch of new tools. SS got me out a damaged part immediately, but so did Grizzly. Rikon took a bit long, but I got it.
So I would say that just about everyone BUT delta has good CS.

[Wade Lippman]

I love all the obvious things about my SS PCS. Some other things perhaps not mentioned:

Cons:

The dado stack requires a second brake. The perceived hassle of this has caused me to seek other ways to cut dados. Not saying I'm right, just that it's an issue for me.

If you contact an errant miter fence or jig, there's a chance of misfire and ruining a blade and brake. This adds to inconvenience and cost.



I know what you mean about the dado. I thought maybe I could just turn it off, but you can't do that. Maybe I will pick up a RAS, cheaper than a dado break.

I once clipped an aluminum miter gauge with my Griz that would have tripped the SS; but if I am that dumb I deserve the consequences.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I will also chime in on the Euro slider suggestion. It is not a SawStop but it can be significantly safer than a non-SS cabinet saw. The advantages of the slider were far more important to me than the SS brake feature.

I realise that the SS could save a finger or even more and that is positive however I have several other often used pieces of equipment that are also potential flesh eaters. For more than twenty years of WWKg I have been very satisfied with my ability to avoid injury by using time honoured techniques and devices so I don't feel that the safety upgrade is as worthy of my $$$ as the performance/slight safety upgrade of a silder over a cabinet saw.

Regardless a better TS is always a treat. Enjoy your new saw.

I totally hear this. If Sawstop comes out with a euro-style slider, I will sell my Sawstop cabinet saw, Excalibur sliding table, and any other earthly possessions to buy one.

Sliders are great. But assuming for a second that safety is the only factor, Sawstop is hands down a safer saw than a slider. I say this over and over on this forum, but think about it: the cuts that are most likely to cause amputation are rip cuts... not cross cuts, where your hands are already far away from the blade. On a euro slider, unless you get a huge slider with an 8' stroke, you will be doing rip cuts using the rip fence. That's when you need to really worry about your fingers, and the euro sliders will cut your fingers off if you tempt it. And even if you do have a huge slider, I can't picture how you would rip a parallel side accurately without a ton of fussing.

I'm not going to discount the safety vs. functionality trade off of buying a slider over a SS. To each his own, and Chris, you clearly thought through the trade off and made the right decision for yourself.

But those who argue that that a euro slider is as safe as a Sawstop are underestimating the danger of rip cuts using their fences on the slider.

[Kevin Womer]

When I was thinking of a new table saw, I wanted either the new Delta Uni or a SS. I liked them both. I went with a SS PCS because I have read so many complaints about the customer service/parts availability issues Delta currently has. I wanted this to be the last saw I have to own, so having parts made and available were very important in my decision. I'm not going to get into the safety discussion, it has been beat to death almost as much as the political stance people have on every forum, but is nice to know I have it on my saw and I won't ever regret the choice I made. I have to say, even without the brake, I would buy it again. It has exceeded every expectation I had including the customer service of SawStop. You don't have to take my word for it, make two phone calls-one to Delta and one to SS and and ask a couple of questions to each person in regards to their respective saws and see which company makes the better impression on you. It just might make your decision a whole lot easier. Good luck to you.

[Denny Rice]

I am amazed how much good info I always get here, thank you guys for the info and input! Sawmill Creek and its members rock! I am really leaning toward the SawStop. Probably still going to be 30 days before I pull the trigger, I might head back to Woodcraft again and "kick the tires" on the SawStop. I called SawStop today, they were good enough to put a free DVD in the mail for me to watch along with other stuff. :)

[Rich Riddle]

I am amazed how much good info I always get here, thank you guys for the info and input! Sawmill Creek and its members rock! I am really leaning toward the SawStop. Probably still going to be 30 days before I pull the trigger, I might head back to Woodcraft again and "kick the tires" on the SawStop. I called SawStop today, they were good enough to put a free DVD in the mail for me to watch along with other stuff. :)Prices increase Feb. 1, so if you are certain, don't wait too long to pull the trigger. You only have a couple of days.

[Matt Meiser]

Only on the ICS apparently and technically that's a shipping cost increase. Someone from Sawstop contacted me and said that the information a dealer gave me was not completely accurate.

[Bruce Page]

Folks, please leave the Sawstop politics out of the discussion.

Thanks

[Daniel Shnitka]

I have the been more than pleased with the Industrial model. Every was dead accurate on set up. The correct number of nuts, bolts, washer and big clear well written explaination of how and where they are to be fitted.
What many of you have over looked ithe table is oversized relative to the industry standard and this is such a benifit in handling panel/sheet goods. The fence for ICS have came out of the box with no light gaps and the thinest feel blade could not be slipped under the straight edge and the fence. The same with the trueness of the mitre guage, fence and machinest plate mounted on the saw. Right out of the box accurate, accurate, accurate.
What a pleasure to use. It is a treat to be cutting matterial useing such a saw.
The fit and finish are superb. The little extra details of safety switches on the doors, the lock down mechanism for whether it be forthe motor or the start to box. Saw stop listened to a lot of woodworkers when they designed the saw.
When ordering a part or asking a question at head office. Very prompt reply and no run around on any question i asked.
I hear of horror stories from my woodworking friends. The last one being of the the young but experienced woodworker trying to do a blind dado. He has no fingers on his left hand now. One of his fellow woodworkers, Brad rushed him to the hospital with the sawdust collection box from under saw. The surgeon declared the fingers in the sawdust box as "hamburger".

[Steve Rozmiarek]

And even if you do have a huge slider, I can't picture how you would rip a parallel side accurately without a ton of fussing.

I'm not going to discount the safety vs. functionality trade off of buying a slider over a SS. To each his own, and Chris, you clearly thought through the trade off and made the right decision for yourself.

But those who argue that that a euro slider is as safe as a Sawstop are underestimating the danger of rip cuts using their fences on the slider.

I am not trying to convert you sawstop guys to sliders, but, comments like this are so easily lost in the mass of sawstop rhetoric that ensues whenever the subject is breached that I hope their lack of defense is not taken for acquiescence by us slider folks. If any real information is desired on sliding saws, please don't glean it from page three of a sawstop thread.

One question, then I will go away and you all can talk about me. Ok, so you got a sawstop, and you will now not cut your fingers off with your tablesaw. What about your bandsaw, circular saw, jointer, chisels, or kitchen knives? I tend to get complacent when I know something is not dangerous, what happens if that complacency is carried over to those non sawstop tools? Does the sawstop then actually make it more likely that you will cut yourself badly because those other tools combined get used more than a tablesaw?

[Matt Meiser]

Its still not "safe" to run your fingers into the blade any more than its "safe" to crash your car into a light pole because you have airbags and seat belts. Its also not light on the wallet---doing so will cost upwards of $150 if you are running a good blade.

[Carl Beckett]

Folks, please leave the Sawstop politics out of the discussion.

Thanks

Dang......

[Keith Hankins]

I agree with Rod, as usual. A cabinet saw is a cabinet saw. All the quality in the world just means its a cabinet saw that won't need fixed. A Euro slider can actually bring something new to the game. I despise Sawstop's politics, but it's a personal decision.

I found your comment intriguing. Not having used one, what does the Euro slider bring that the plain old CS does not? I don't break down a lot of ply, (I use a festool and rail to do it now) so I've not really looked at that, but the eruo's do fascinate me.

[Jim Foster]

The original post was a request for feedback from Sawstop owners. I don't own one, but have looked pretty closely at it. Seems like it's a good enough saw where the significant majority of owners will not have buyer's remorse, and will reference it positively. As for the extra cost, most times people never complain about paying too much for something if it turns out to be a good purchase. Might warn you, but don't complain.

The biggest question I would have if considering one is how many misfires people get with the brake device and what's the cost/downtime from that. I used to see threads on this, but not lately.

Other incidental info is what's the accident rate with traditional cabinet saws vs. new saws with riving knives vs. SawStop (maybe not a point for discussion in this post), also how good is the dust collection.

Also, it would be nice to get a post devoted to people that have switched to/or from a European slider, where we get feedback of the differences, benefits, extra cost, changes in workflow etc...

Woodworking does lose it's fun when we get politics involved. Also guilty as charged at times.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I found your comment intriguing. Not having used one, what does the Euro slider bring that the plain old CS does not? I don't break down a lot of ply, (I use a festool and rail to do it now) so I've not really looked at that, but the eruo's do fascinate me.

Keith, I think rather than derailing this thread, we maybe ought to start another. Will do so in a bit, work permitting. :)

[John Piwaron]

I too look for but seldom find the sorts of comparisons you outline. My guess is that the price of these tools is high enough that most hobby guys aren't likely to switch from one to the other. That's bound to limit the number of people that can offer a good comparison. About the closest to that are tool magazine reviews. Those are infrequent though. And may not have the depth or insight of long term use over many kinds of work. Generally speaking, I think they're about the closest to comparisons most people will get.

Yeah, politics suck. When I mentioned it as a factor, I wanted it viewed in the same light as "I didn't care for the purple color so I passed on it." Just one reason among many.

[Prashun Patel]

"...how many misfires people get with the brake device and what's the cost/downtime from that[?]"

I would bet that most people have a similar experience to mine: I had a firing relatively early on. My miter gauge contacted the blade, and the brake fired. I had to wait a week for a new brake and blade to arrive. If I had extras on hand, the downtime would have been 5 minutes or less.

Since then, I'm careful about 'dry running' my gauge through the cut beforehand.

I find that the LED indicators, this experience, and the knowledge that a misfire will mean $80 and wet pants has made me more aware when using the saw - which feels like a good thing.

I have also had a near-fire once when cutting a green piece of wood. The blade spun down, but the brake did not fire. The warning light went on.

[Matt Meiser]

I had to wait a week for a new brake and blade to arrive. If I had extras on hand, the downtime would have been 5 minutes or less.

I bought an extra with my saw to have on hand and greatly reduce the possibility of actually needing it. :D

[Mike Heidrick]

Never had a misfire. I own extras.

[Matt Meiser]

See, my theory works!

[Mark Ashmeade]

Likewise! Mine hasn't fired (nor misfired), but there's a spare waiting to go if/when it does. I took the view that the extra wouldn't be missed at the time of purchase, but would add insult to injury if I had a misfire.

[Hank Hill]

I also recommend a sliding table saw over a SawStop. I actually considered a SawStop as well and am about to complete a purchase for a slider. It's more than just a safety feature.

[Denny Rice]

[QUOTE=Carl Beckett;2049615]Dang...

........Double dang!

[Clay Fails]

I upgraded from a Delta contractors saw to a Sawstop ICS 2 years ago, and have been very happy with the Sawstop. I looked at the new Unisaw and the Powermatic PM2000 when i was shopping, and my decision came down to the overall quality of the saw. I just felt the Sawstop had superior fit, finish and features. The safety feature was "gravy", not a compelling part of the decision. To be honest, i sort of felt all the electronic bells and whistles were a negative. Knock on wood......so far i have not had any issues in that regard. YMMV!

[jerry cousins]

have had one for just over a year - no misfires - nor real fires as of yet (probably shouldn't say those things) - do have an xtra brake in the shop.
jerry

[Roger Feeley]

I am not trying to convert you sawstop guys to sliders, but, comments like this are so easily lost in the mass of sawstop rhetoric that ensues whenever the subject is breached that I hope their lack of defense is not taken for acquiescence by us slider folks. If any real information is desired on sliding saws, please don't glean it from page three of a sawstop thread.

One question, then I will go away and you all can talk about me. Ok, so you got a sawstop, and you will now not cut your fingers off with your tablesaw. What about your bandsaw, circular saw, jointer, chisels, or kitchen knives? I tend to get complacent when I know something is not dangerous, what happens if that complacency is carried over to those non sawstop tools? Does the sawstop then actually make it more likely that you will cut yourself badly because those other tools combined get used more than a tablesaw?

I wondered about that when I got my SS ICS but it really didn't change my perspective. I've been using a TS for 30 years and still have all my digits because of a healthy respect for the risks. My hope was that I could sort of forget about the SS safety system and just let it be a backup. But there are differences in how you use the SS and they are just enough to make you remember that it's there. I don't feel complacent about it at all. In fact, I think it makes me think a bit more about safety on my other tools because I spent so much to get extra safety on one.

[Mike Henderson]

One question, then I will go away and you all can talk about me. Ok, so you got a sawstop, and you will now not cut your fingers off with your tablesaw. What about your bandsaw, circular saw, jointer, chisels, or kitchen knives? I tend to get complacent when I know something is not dangerous, what happens if that complacency is carried over to those non sawstop tools? Does the sawstop then actually make it more likely that you will cut yourself badly because those other tools combined get used more than a tablesaw?
I certainly have not experienced any complacency regarding my other tools because I have a SawStop. I still treat them the same way as I've always done.

I won't call it complacency but I find I'm not as fearful of the table saw (with a SawStop) as I was with my old table saw. Knowing that the flesh sensing technology is backing me up gives me a peace of mind when using the saw. And, yes, I might do some things on the SawStop that I wouldn't have done on my old saw.

But when looking at other tools, I don't use a bandsaw very much. Probably my most used tool, maybe even more than the table saw, is my miter saw. I may be wrong, but I believe that tools where the material is held still and the blade moves are safer (you're less likely to cut yourself) than on tools where the material is moved into the tool. So I have a very healthy respect for my router table and I'm very careful to keep my hands away from the cutting blade. I've never had a close call with my miter saw or bandsaw.

Chisels and kitchen knives (and carving tools), I've cut myself with them many times but the severity of the injury is minor, especially compared to the damage that would be done by an equivalent contact with a table saw blade or router bit. I haven't noticed any difference in the way I handle and work with chisels, carving tools, or kitchen knives compared to prior to getting a SawStop.

Mike

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike and Roger, just so you know, I'm not anti Sawstop. I'm glad they exist, and I'm glad many people appreciate them.

I think I would get a little complacent, which is why I brought that up. My 14" bandsaw is the example I'm thinking of. I have a 36" Oliver brute of a bandsaw, and you cannot take it for granted. It is so blatantly powerful, it demands attention. I also have a little Delta 14" saw that I just use for odd jobs. Nice quiet little thing, heck you can't even feel the breeze from the wheels on it. I caught myself doing something stupid with it once though, because it was the "safe" saw. I was cutting a piece of pvc pipe, and of course it rolled and broke the blade. I know better then that, and I never would have done it with the Oliver, but I didn't even think about it twice with the Delta. Odd how my mind malfunctioned but I think about it every time I use a bandsaw now, so maybe lesson learned.

BTW, the drawer in my wife's kitchen that holds the knives cost me the very tip end of a finger. Its a heavy drawer, and a cheap slide broke. My finger was between the counter edge and the drawer face as it levered up. It's the dumb little things that get us I guess. Really glad it was me, not one of the girls.

[Denny Rice]

"...how many misfires people get with the brake device and what's the cost/downtime from that[?]"

I would bet that most people have a similar experience to mine: I had a firing relatively early on. My miter gauge contacted the blade, and the brake fired. I had to wait a week for a new brake and blade to arrive. If I had extras on hand, the downtime would have been 5 minutes or less.

Since then, I'm careful about 'dry running' my gauge through the cut beforehand.

I find that the LED indicators, this experience, and the knowledge that a misfire will mean $80 and wet pants has made me more aware when using the saw - which feels like a good thing.

I have also had a near-fire once when cutting a green piece of wood. The blade spun down, but the brake did not fire. The warning light went on.


The SawStop rep also told me if and when I purchase a new SawStop to buy an extra brake and keep it on hand. If the brake ever fires, they want the fired brake back, I guess the brake stores information that the people at SawStop can use. I was also told by the rep that once I buy one brake I will never have to buy another. He told me to mail them the old "fired" brake and they will ship me a new brake free for the life of the saw.

[Prashun Patel]

That's a good deal you have with them if you understood them correctly. I was under the impression that Sawstop only replaces brakes for free if it fires erroneously. If it fired because of user error, then I didn't think it's reimbursable.

[Matt Meiser]

I believe if you have a skin-triggered activation that's true. I don't think they'll send you a new one if you hit your miter gauge or cut wet wood.

http://www.sawstop.com/report-a-save/


You may be eligible for a free cartridge. If you send us your activated cartridge and we determine through our diagnostic processes that contact with skin triggered the activation, we’ll send you a new cartridge free of charge.

[Mike Heidrick]

I believe if you have a skin-triggered activation that's true. I don't think they'll send you a new one if you hit your miter gauge or cut wet wood.

http://www.sawstop.com/report-a-save/

I am not aware of any cartridge that was sent in that was not replaced for free by any reason. There are rumors of the skin activation rules but the practice has so far not been such.

As to becoming complacent because I own a sawstop - nonsense to me. I prob think about it more than when I owned my delta because there is a brake that can fire and cost me. As to my other tools I work to make them safer too. Examples are feeders on all shapers, I own a big slider shaper, RT (not mounted yet) and the MM20, Made a hold down table for the RAS, Have a nice ststaion for SCMS cuts with hold downs and stops, and a lot of cuts are now made on the CNC router - no need for human interaction after pressing start.

I am really convinced slider boys are not doing all the time consuming truck setups it would take to rip up a bunch of various wood on a slider truck. You can say only on 3" or less wood do I... Whatever. Not buying that they do not rip 99% of the time like the rest of us. I am sure I am wrong and its all in my head.

The slider is nice. No way is it making the the spinning saw blade less dangerous. What you do to make them less dangerous, all the toys and add ons you buy or get and methods you change is up to you. In the end, if you fault in any way with a human part hitting the blade, you are cut up. Period. Felder/MM/etc took no measure to help you there.

I can take steps to also make my cuts less dangerous on my SS. I have bolt ons and included parts as well. Maybe not as slick as a 10' slider immediately next to the blade or thousands of bolt on options. But I have enough options to cut the hardwood I use at a level I feel is safe. But when I fault with one of my human parts hitting the spinning blade, there is a high chance the brake will fire and I will maybe get a scratch. Thats the facts and we all choose our own solutions. You only have to make yourself happy in your own shop.

[Homer Faucett]

I am not aware of any cartridge that was sent in that was not replaced for free by any reason. There are rumors of the skin activation rules but the practice has so far not been such.

Maybe they have changed, but I bought a SS ICS in 2007 (it was the only SS available at the time). I had multiple cartridges that fired for no apparent reason. After some time with the SawStop CS (who was very helpful), we found out that the lead wire tot he arbor might have been overtightened at the factory, resulting in false fires. I sent in either four or five cartridges, and they sent back one less than what I sent in, stating that one of the cartridges was apparently triggered by wet wood, so they would not replace that cartridge. The wood I was cutting was air dried cherry, but the stack wasn't testing as being above 12% mc. Maybe I hit a wet spot. I don't know.

With that said, I haven't had a misfire since, although I am careful to override the brake if I think I might have something in the wood that would trigger it (I was told that some laminates might mistakenly fire the brake). All that is to say that there are times when SawStop will not send you a free brake. Additionally, I was never offered a free replacement blade, although I was able to salvage all but one blade from the brake firings. In the end, I've been very happy with my SawStop, and it's held up well in an unheated wood shop . . . much better than some might fear.

[Mike Heidrick]

Great to know Homer. Never heard of free blades either. My ICS saw is a 2006.

I do know that the brake port is different now on the newer ICS saws vs my 2006.

Also want to thank Joe for the info on sliders via PM. I have a slider shaper and his ideas will help me use it better for sure.

[David Kumm]

Mike, I'm not sure the point but since i'm the 3" guy- and I say that sadly- I'll again state that I think both types of saws have their benefits. A slider is better at some applications but not all. If a slider meets your specific needs better there are ways to minimize the danger. Not as neat as the SS but still helpful. And yes, my pneumatic clamps are always on the saw. One lever operates both and I haven't put my finger near the blades in years. I still won't give up the traditional saw for certain things, small rips particularly. I like the SS technology but don't think it trumps every other reason to own a different saw. I tend to be pretty hard core about safety, my own and others. I think safety technology does trump a lot of reasons for owning specific machines. My cars are chosen for stopping distance, brake size, sophisticated suspension systems, traction and stability control, blind spot detection etc. I modify the Suburban to duplicate my Euro cars and it isn't cheap. I'm concerned enough to spend $$ to protect both myself and others. However, I don't think everyone else should do as I choose and I don't consider them to be wrong, just of a different opinion. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

I agree Dave for sure. Eventually I may own a slider saw as a second saw in a second larger shop. For now I am looking for advise to improve my slider shaper. As many pointed out - The SS is only one of many many tools in the shop. I appreciate you guys using these and allowing us to learn from you guys.

Now get out there and parallel rip some 3.25" wood :)

[David Kumm]

I agree Dave for sure. Eventually I may own a slider saw as a second saw in a second larger shop. For now I am looking for advise to improve my slider shaper. As many pointed out - The SS is only one of many many tools in the shop. I appreciate you guys using these and allowing us to learn from you guys.

Now get out there and parallel rip some 3.25" wood :)

I'll use the bandsaw. The sliding shaper is another great topic. I REALLY try to keep away from those cutters!
I use a different type of clamp set up for that as well as a big feeder. Start a post, that will be informative. 3" Dave

[Andy Pratt]

I have a sawstop 3hp industrial and I would recommend it without hesitation, it is very well made.

Very little about it bothers me, but I'll mention the minor areas here just so you know about them, since they are the only things you won't read in a magazine or hear from a dealer. My model was purchased in 2007.

My fence does have a very slight inward bow to it after 5 years of heavy use. I have never had this affect my work but you can see it if you put a straightedge on it.

When lowering the blade it makes a god-awful creaking noise. I believe I read elsewhere that this happened often with my era of saw, is not evidence of a function problem, and has been corrected in later models.


A couple times a year, enough sawdust builds up on a hard-to-access part of the internal mechanism to prevent the blade from being lowered all the way below the table (i use a quality dust collector). You can blow it out with compressed air but you have to get creative to get at the right spot.


As you can see by the minor level of importance to my complaints, the saw has no major issues and has performed admirably. I would buy it again in a heartbeat.

[Thomas L. Miller]

Denny,
I've had a SS ICS for 2 years. I really like it. Recently I helped a friend with a project at his shop. He has nice table saw but it isn't a SS. I found myself a little squeamish about using his saw. I had the feeling one gets when you realize you haven't fastened your seatbelt and have driven for a bit. It also reminded me that the safety procedures we're supposed to practice when using a saw are there for a reason and are not to be toyed with. They are all that stands between you and a spinning piece of steel. While I certainly appreciate the brake on my SS, what really is nice is the riving knife. It probably prevents more accidents than the brake on a daily basis.
Tom

[Mike Henderson]

A couple times a year, enough sawdust builds up on a hard-to-access part of the internal mechanism to prevent the blade from being lowered all the way below the table (i use a quality dust collector). You can blow it out with compressed air but you have to get creative to get at the right spot.
I had this problem with my SawStop. I upgraded my dust collector (more volume) and haven't had the problem since (yet). But I'm not a heavy user - just hobby use.

Mike

[Denny Rice]

Have you ever contacted SawStop about the fence issue? I seem to hear this a lot from SawStop owners...just wondering what they say about the fence. Thanks

[Peter Aeschliman]

Have you ever contacted SawStop about the fence issue? I seem to hear this a lot from SawStop owners...just wondering what they say about the fence. Thanks

I haven't actually. If their PR and CS departments are worth $.02, they are reading the forums regularly. The chipboard fence face must only cost them a few bucks in their production process... for a few more bucks, I'm sure they could come up with something better. It's strange that they haven't.

[Bruce Moore]

My 2 cents on the SS. I traded up to the professional from a Delta contractors saw with a Unifence. Love it. It's a solid machine. But I do admit that I miss my Unifence a little. This thread has been a learning experience. I didn't even know there was politics.

[Craig Behnke]

Ok, so you got a sawstop, and you will now not cut your fingers off with your tablesaw. What about your bandsaw, circular saw, jointer, chisels, or kitchen knives? Does the sawstop then actually make it more likely that you will cut yourself badly because those other tools combined get used more than a tablesaw?

Good questions. There are no saw stop equivalents for most other major tools but that doesn't mean we should then forgo safety features that are available now or wait until safety features are available on every machine before we even start to benefit from them. simple.

I guess the complacency thing was never an issue with me because I'm not less safe with a saw stop. My sawstop was intended to avoid catastrophic accidents, it was NOT intended to allow me to woodwork less carefully. I am just as cautious and aware as I was before but I get an extra measure of safety JUST IN CASE. win win.

[Kevin Guarnotta]

Yeah Craig, I'm with you. Just because I have a sawstop, doesn't mean I am reckless with my saw. It would still cost me some money and time - if I had a 'brake' incident. I also have guys working for me using the saw, and I feel better about their safety.

[Scott Reed]

I think the argument that a Sawstop can/will make you less cautious is crazy. I don't own an SS but hope to, but no matter how many hotdogs are saved and testimonials out there, I will still never trust technology to save my digits. I can't imagine anyone would be less cautious.

[Denny Rice]

My 2 cents on the SS. I traded up to the professional from a Delta contractors saw with a Unifence. Love it. It's a solid machine. But I do admit that I miss my Unifence a little. This thread has been a learning experience. I didn't even know there was politics.
Me neither! LOL