Dust Collection: Ideal vs Adequate, Stationary vs Portable

[Charlie Watson]

Let me start off by saying that my experience as a wood worker has been more along the lines of inexpensive power tools and a shop vac. Now with retirement I am converting my 3 car garage to a wood shop so I can really develop my skills and maybe along the way make some nice furniture that will be around for a while. I will be attending classes and investing in some nice equipment. I've narrowed down my options on equipment and the floor plan somewhat but the one area I'm really spinning on is dust collection. As I've read the reams of data and the multitudes of opinions I have to admit, I'm not even close to figuring out what I need. It's certainly not as simple as just selecting a cyclone, I had been leaning towards an Onieda and then read that some folks disliked it and then I had more or less settled on a Clear Vue 1800. That was until I read about the noise level making the whole house vibrate like a sub woofer and the dozens of options for ducting, bends, reducers etc each one critical to the performance of the system. Of course there are ways to mitigate the sound but that just added to the complexity of this whole notion.

So as I sat back, pale and glassy eyed, I started thinking, why not just get one of those portable systems like http://www.lagunatools.com/accessories/dustcollectors/dustcollector-cyclone2# ? Do you just wheel this thing around to the equipment when you are going to use it and hook it up. Is this a viable simple solution or am I missing something. I know its not ideal, but is it adequate? am I trading off so much in performance or functionality that this will be a mistake that I regret? You guys have way more experience than I do with this stuff so I really appreciate your input.

ps: Thanks to you shop veterans who take the time to answer questions that must be repetitive each time a newbie joins the forum. As a newbie, I really appreciate your advice and I have learned more from this web site and from all of you than anywhere else. I hope to some day return the favor and provide input to others, but right now I'm just a sponge soaking it all in!

[Wade Lippman]

I had the 3hp version and did just the opposite of what you are suggesting; I wheeled my drum sander, edge sander, and planer to the cyclone. I positioned my other tools so I could reach them with a 15' 5" hose. It was a real PITA, but given the tiny room I had to work in, I had no choice. I am sure wheeling the cyclone around will be just as bad. Now that I have more room (still half of what you have) I am going with ducts.

It probably is adequate, but you won't enjoy it.

[John Bailey]

I have a 1hp portable with a canister filter. My shop is 20x20 and I like to work on fairly long projects (boats). I've got,a DeWalt RAS, a drill press and an Oliver bandsaw. Everything else is either hand tools or bench top. The portable dust collection has plenty of power for the single machine use and short runs that I use it for. Because I need it in changing locations, it works out great. I think it is ideal for my situation.

I know it's not the ideal solution for every one, and I could build a small addition to house a cyclone, but I like having control of where the work has to be done. To me, it's no problem hauling it around where I need it.

John

[James Baker SD]

I tried the connect to one machine at a time approach. Worked for me if I was going to do a lot of jointing or a lot a planing or a lot of table sawing. Problem was I was too lazy to switch from table saw to joiner back to table saw if in the middle of a lot of table sawing, if I needed to make a single pass on the joiner. That was my problem, but it killed the whole system. Dust everywhere eventually, me constantly stirring it up as I moved around.

Now I am almost done installing permanent ducting to each machine in the hope I will not be too lazy to open the correct blast gate, even for a single pass on the joiner.

James

[Jack Burgess]

Charlie, boy I wish I had the time to type all that I have learned in the past 5 weeks concerning dust collection. I will make several comments but I will let you know that I have a small shop 87x15 (1/3) of garage. I am not a very good craftsman - I make toys. Dust is dust however and what I have learned and the money I have spent on dust collection is amazing. I read every book I could find and watched every video I could get and most books talk about the ducts, gates, connectors, etc. Very few are addressing the real problem. I have take to Rockler and Woodcraft both and it seems that they are starting to get the message since BOTH are featuring their duct collecting products in recent sales catalogs.

The main thing, in my opinion, is the particle size of the dust that you are collecting. That is the thing that is sending us to hospitals with respiratory problems. Any vaccum will pick-up floor chips. You cannot believe how "uninformed" retailers are on the subject - even some of the manuf I called at customer service could not answer - had to get a technical person on phone and then they were not sure -= a lot of manuf do not even list the micron size of the filters (until recently). I found out by accident the the Home Depot vac RIgid has a 3 micron filter for their vacs - Put you money in the filter and not in the machine ! Even the larger cyclone systems have a standard bag that is only 25 microns !!! why buy those - they do have addition 5 micron bags you can purchase separate.

I did just find a floor vac with a 3 micron filter and an additional inside bag has a 2 micron capability. I was debating not ever using my Rockler air filtration system since I found out that the filter is only a 5 micron filter = I later found out from a technical guy that the front filter is 5 but the three packet bags reduce it to a 2 micron !! great !! They are not selling it I think (not in the catalog) but it appears tha JET had and could have been making theirs and it is not being published as a 5 and then pocket filter down to `1 micron !!!! that is the system I would buy for air circulation now.

I have also learned that hp is not as important as CFM, ribbed tubes are not worth putting in - try to use smoth bore inside. If I had a large room where it would be worth it I would use tin or PVC Standard connectors from retailers are rediculous I spent $35 just making a U turn from a belt sander - PVC would have cost $6 PVC needs to be grounded but that is a small problem to fix,

Al in all I decided to use the roll around Dewalt vac (3 micron - 2 micron bag) and connect it to each tool as I used it. I have clear tube with handle connected to cyclone dust drum and that is connected to vac - NO duct to mount, large system to buy etc. By the way - several of my friends who are flow engineers tell me that NO system is adequate if it is not vented to the OUTSIDE - have not found a book yet that suggest that !?

Good luck, hope I gave you some alternate ideas

Jack

[Wade Lippman]

I have a small shop 87x15

Jack

I presume that is a typo of somesort.

[Rod Sheridan]

Charlie, I've owned an Oneida cyclone for over a decade now, and am very pleased with it. My brother bought a larger one and he's very pleased with it.

The portable units may be ideal if you don't want permanent ducting, I have a very small shop so I don't have room for a portable machine.

Oneida have a nice portable cyclone...................Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

I would not spend for a portable cyclone up front. If you want to experiment with portable, buy a decent 2 hp bagger and put a good 1 micron oversize bag on it. they aren't that expensive and oversize will help the airflow. See if you like dragging it around and hooking it up as needed. After a year you will know better what you really want and won't have a bunch of $$ tied up. Dave

[michael osadchuk]

Charlie

Since you are at a stage of your life that you are planning your ultimate workshop and will be around in the same place for a while I think you will be happier with a permanent setup, including fixed ducting.

I note that you live in a warm climate..... if you wanted to save some money a 2 horsepower single stage dc, venting the fine particles outside, would power a fixed ducting layout in your size of workshop.

Onieda and Clear Vue cyclones are both solid products.... you can muffle the sound installing behind some soundproofing.

good luck

michael

[Prashun Patel]

Charlie: That Laguna you linked to is going to be decent for a small shop - even if you sat it in the corner and piped to it. Like anything, as you use a portable DC for a few years, your sights will rise and you'll wish for a stationary solution.

If you have the funds, a cyclone is the way to go. However, for a fraction of that $2000, you could get a 2hp single stage collector with a 1u bag, and make a preseparator. The benefit of the preseparator (space notwithstanding) is that it's a might easier to disconnect and empty than even many cyclone solutions.

[Craig Behnke]

i use to have a shop vac with a thein separator on a nice rolling cart that I moved from machine to machine. I recently installed a stationary 3hp cyclone with ducts going to all machines. the stationary setup cost a lot more, but it saves time and effort. it's a trade off. since I don't have a ton of time for woodworking, anything that allows me to use my precious minutes creating instead of setting up is a winning proposition.

the convenience of just opening a port to use a machine is so nice that I would be very frustrated going back to rolling my shopvac dolly from machine to machine.

there are times I regret overspending and buying too much machine for what I really need. the stationary DC is NOT one of those cases. in fact it's one of those cases where it's such a nice upgrade that I wished I had done it sooner and i'm in the process of investing more money to make it even better.

just my 2 cents worth.

[glenn bradley]

I started with a shop vac. Added a 1HP bagger. Upgraded the bag. Added a vac. Added Dust Deputy's to the vacs. Added a cyclone. Oh, and I built an ambient cleaner. I use them all still. My only regret is not going at dust collection hard enough, early enough. I live where I can work with the garage doors open all day long and still got nailed by insufficient DC. Those of us who got nailed are a little more vocal than those that haven't got the bad news yet. Eventually they join our little family ;-(

I say this with the best of intentions; do something, do it now.

[ian maybury]

Hi Charlie. A few thoughts from my own digging in the area:

There's no reason not to build or in some cases buy a portable of similar performance to the best built ins, but you might have to DIY some mods or go for one one of the better ones.

Basically because many portables tend to run less filter area (a single cartridge), less fan HP and a truncated cyclone which may not be quite so effective as the taller industrial pattern used by some in order to save head height. Some Eastern models use filter cartridges of less reliable/non branded origin. It's probably a case of figuring out what you want and/or need, and then working through what's available. Felder have some nice (non cyclone) RL series portables which are not cheap, but which (subject to user input) seem to tick quite a few boxes. Their output air quality is specified to be in a accordance with quite a high EC standard. (can't remember the specifics)

The other disadvantage of a portable is that it's hard to fit in a small shop - you need lots of wheel space.

Advantages include that a smaller (say 3hp) fan may deliver similar performance (to a 5HP fixed unit) if you keep the hoses full sized and short, you don't have to buy and install ducting etc, you don't have to build up the unit, and you have a readily re-saleable unit.

A ducted system costs a significantly more and is a pretty significant project to plan and install, and unless the shop is very small and the ducting very short will tend to deliver a bit less puff for a given fan HP. It takes up a lot less space (but may need some head height) but in use is a lot more convenient. (no fiddling about moving and re-fitting hoses)

My inclination based on my own outcome is to advise the larger 5HP Pentz/Clear Vue style system with close to HEPA filtration, a cyclone and 6in or a little larger ducting and hose throughout if you can manage it - and if your machines are full size floor models and you expect to be doing a lot of work. If nothing else for the extra flexibility and reduced sensitivity to differences in machine hood set up and the air cleaning that the extra suction pressure and airflow bring - but a high level of air exhaust air quality/cleanliness is important too. There are those that may make a case for slightly smaller units too.

Bill Pentz's pages (read the Introdction and Dust Collection Basics sections) set out clearly what you should be aiming for, and the basics of what is required to achieve it. I'm a firm believer in planning a built in system carefully in its entirety - it can open up less obvious options that save large amounts of space, reduce noise, ensure nice straight duct runs with minimum bends, easy access to filters and the like for maintenance etc.

Don't worry about noise. While structural details can make a big difference, on any reasonably well developed system (that hasn't got problems with vibration, turbulence and the like) the noise level is basically a property of the impeller size and type/HP. Oneida do use a more highly backward curved version which is a little quieter but at the expense of some pressure capability. From my own experience it's no problem to install a 5hp Clear Vue or any other so that the noise is acceptable (similar to a 1.5HP mobile bagger, but slighly lower frequency) - but it's advisable to avoid moves like rigidly bolting stuff down so that vibes get transmitted into the building structure. (use soft mounts) Also consider arranging for a soft joint to the ducting, fit an exhaust silencer (a $30 stock HVAC part) if exhausting through ducting, and if necessary ( i didn't need to) lag the fan and cyclone or enclose it/place it in an adjacent room or partially up in the attic space. It's even possible to use a 3 phase motor with a VFD and tune the rpm a little.

ian

[ian maybury]

PS Nice one Jack - your post should be framed. You sound very much like a down to earth guy who came to the topic fresh, ended up a bit shocked at some of the stuff sold/claims that are about (and with the gaps in the generally available published information) but worked out some of the key issues in selecting a dust system during your project.

There's no doubt that exhausting outside is the solution that delivers the most reliably clean air in the shop. The pity though is that due to climate and shop location/applicable regs it's not always possible for everybody.

You've probably seen it already, but Bill Pentz's pages (the two early sections 'Introduction' and 'Dust Collection Basics' are a good place to start) might add some more to what you've found: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Introduction.cfm

ian

[Charlie Watson]

wow, really great input. I've decided to go with the permanent ducted solution, now I need to decide on Onieda or Clear Vue. Thanks all!

[Michael Mayo]

WOW.....WOW.....WOW! That is all I can say about the Pentz website. I just spent a ton of time reading a lot of what he has to say and it is scary. But even more disturbing is the fact that to get safe dust collection you are talking about $1,000's of dollars and that is no exaggeration. I have an 800+ sq.ft. workshop one car garage with a second floor and frankly I just cannot afford the kind of money he is talking about to make things safe. So what do you do? I think I will just continue wearing my 3M 7500 series mask whenever I am working in the shop and just use the dust collector to keep things clean from the big stuff. I have gotten pretty use to wearing the mask anyway and don't find it at all uncomfortable a a matter of fact I feel kind of naked without wearing it. I started realizing how bad it was when I would come in from the shop which is detached from the house thankfully and I would have to blow my nose and the stuff that would come out of there was not pleasant and that was before I started doing a significant amount of woodworking. So that was just the nasty dust flying around in the shop from other types of work. I think I am going to stick with getting a HF DC and maybe a Super Dust Deputy and making my own modifications to create a cyclone and seeing how the heck you would vent the DC outside which is the thing I am wondering how you would do??? Anyone know how you wold vent a typical DC like the HF nit to the outside? I mean it would be an easy thing to cut a hole in the side of the garage and install a vent but how do you connect the vent to the DC when the exhaust for the DC is enormous?

[Lou Stags]

PS Nice one Jack - your post should be framed. You sound very much like a down to earth guy who came to the topic fresh, ended up a bit shocked at some of the stuff sold/claims that are about (and with the gaps in the generally available published information) but worked out some of the key issues in selecting a dust system during your project.

There's no doubt that exhausting outside is the solution that delivers the most reliably clean air in the shop. The pity though is that due to climate and shop location/applicable regs it's not always possible for everybody.

You've probably seen it already, but Bill Pentz's pages (the two early sections 'Introduction' and 'Dust Collection Basics' are a good place to start) might add some more to what you've found: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Introduction.cfm

ian

This is what Pentz says about venting outside:

"The health insurance data show at typical exposure levels for shops that vent outside 100% of workers develop a significant loss in respiratory volume, about 14% are forced into an early dust related medical retirement, about 7% develop such bad sensitivity (allergies) that they must permanently give up woodworking, and about half of one percent develop dust related cancer.

If that statement is true, then we are all in for a world of hurt. If it's not true, then what else isn't true regarding the Pentz "research/claims"?

Do you believe the Pentz statement above to be true or false?

[Jim Andrew]

Bill Pentz is writing from personal experience. My experience with a cyclone is that you need about a 3hp cyclone. I purchased a 2hp Woodsucker about 9 years ago and installed it with a metal piping system, overhead, and consider it minimum. One thing I have learned, is that some machines work better with dust collection than others. Too bad the machine companies don't test for how well their machines work with dust collectors. The new G0453 planer I bought works very well with the cyclone, I can forget to close the gate on my jointer and still the collector gets all the chips from the planer. But my G9983 sander could use more cfm's. What makes me sore is the sander has a 5" dust flange. And the inside of the sander is a 5x5 square, so even if I cut the flange off, can only gain a tiny bit. And the duct in the sander opens inside to full width across the sander opening. Now that sander is one tool that could use a 5hp clearview.

[ian maybury]

It's heavy going Lou, but maybe take a trawl through these links which report some research worldwide into the health effects of wood dust:

Summary of effects of wood dust and regulatory exposure limits: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pel88/wooddust.html
Selection of studies and results (maybe read 'conclusions' in each case): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095400/
Risk of cancer with wood dust: http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/newhomeroc/roc10/wd.pdf

Stick 'incidence illness wood dust' in Google if you want a month's reading which reinforces the same broad message. Wood dust is dodgy stuff.

Bill P is simply relaying in short form a summary of some of the conclusions of the enormous body of work that's been done worldwide on the health risks associated with wood dust. His project has been to bring it (and some improved collection solutions) to the attention of the hobby and DIY woodworking community - which historically has been rather isolated, is not regulated, and has been sold equipment that tends not to take proper account of the health issue.

He's not the guy who did the research (which has been an enormous worldwide effort based largely on searching out historical information), or played any part in setting the exposure limits. He's simply communicating what the current position is to the best knowledge of the bodies regulating dust exposure in industry, and the various medical/industrial hygienist type bodies are concerned (e.g. he quotes the US ACGIH quite a lot), and goes on to share the results of the work he did to figure out what's needed to get more effective fine dust collection in a small wood shop. Even at that he advises the use of masks and the like.

There's no point shooting the messenger...

There's no guarantees either, and by definition his solution is only as good as it is - before long somebody will probably come up with something better. He could easily be in error in some ways (as could they), but it's hard to argue with the general thrust of the message. After a lot of reading and the experience of building and using one of his systems i've so far only ever found that what he says works/ties in with what's out there.

What the documents broadly show is that there has been a huge wave of research into the incidence of illness caused by wood dust since the 1970s - right across the world. That the findings are pretty much uniform, and that the result has been a forced ratcheting down of the permitted exposure levels. This is also a worldwide occurrence. OSHA (which even when it started was widely regarded as trouble by the industry in the 70s and 80s) started out with wood dust only as a nuisance, then set 15mg/m3 TLV as an acceptable limit. While there are differences between wood species most regulatory organisations right across the Western world are now specifying much lower exposure limits of 1 - 5mg/m3 TLV.

Skimming through some of the above it appears that even this very tight 1mg/m3 TLV limit still doubles the lifetime risk of hospitalisation with lung disease - it just (statistically) reduces the severity and the frequency of occurrence. One figure that jumped out was that hard wood dust was reckoned by some studies to increase the risk of nasal cancer by a factor of about 100 relative to the general population. Reduced lung function is pretty much endemic in woodworkers.

We're at one level not particularly in for a world of hurt, or at least not one we're not experiencing already. In that better control of dust is presumably reducing the suffering people run into as a result of working with wood. (it'd be interesting to see if the rate of illness is actually reducing) What may be is that far more DIY types are now (with widespread ownership of machines) exposed to significant amounts of wood dust. The problem seems to be significant in practice - just thinking of the people i know in wood, or taking account of comments by those posting here it's hard not to conclude that quite a few of us do run into troubles of one sort or another. (i did too) The wheezing old woodworker is almost a cliche.

The pity in many cases is that (if we don't suffer short term asthma, allergic reactions and the like) the effects don't show up for many years - and until a lot of damage has been done to the lungs. They are cumulative, and build slowly over time. When we're relatively young, and still feel we're invulnerable it can all seem a very esoteric discussion - but it gets a lots more real when irreversible and unpleasant health problems set in. We're not aware of a lot of what's going in people's private lives anyway - when the effects are not enough to force big lifestyle changes they tend to carry on as normal, when they get sick enough not to function any more they drop out of view and if it comes to that ultimately die off quietly.

;) The good news on all of this is that either way we're mostly in the happy position of being free to choose the approach we take to wood dust - you pays your money and takes your pick. We all get to roll the great dice of life....

ian

[ian maybury]

HI Michael. Bill's stuff can be a bit of a eye opener. It was the first treatment I saw that placed dust systems on a reasonably sound technical footing. (there are still some gaps)

It might be worth putting your question up on a new thread - you may get a wider range of input.

The classic problem with venting outside is that you have to pull in outside fresh air to replace that vented - and that may or may not be feasible in winter.

Bill P supports venting outside subject to the getting over practical issues like this - as a way of sidestepping poorly performing filtration. It's still (presumably the reason for the incidence of issues in the phrase quoted by Lou) not going to deliver a dust free environment if the system isn't moving enough air/doing a good enough job (the machine hooding etc plays a big part too) and lots of dust is escaping at the point of work...

ian

[david brum]

WOW.....WOW.....WOW! That is all I can say about the Pentz website. I just spent a ton of time reading a lot of what he has to say and it is scary. But even more disturbing is the fact that to get safe dust collection you are talking about $1,000's of dollars and that is no exaggeration. I have an 800+ sq.ft. workshop one car garage with a second floor and frankly I just cannot afford the kind of money he is talking about to make things safe. So what do you do? I think I will just continue wearing my 3M 7500 series mask whenever I am working in the shop and just use the dust collector to keep things clean from the big stuff. I have gotten pretty use to wearing the mask anyway and don't find it at all uncomfortable a a matter of fact I feel kind of naked without wearing it. I started realizing how bad it was when I would come in from the shop which is detached from the house thankfully and I would have to blow my nose and the stuff that would come out of there was not pleasant and that was before I started doing a significant amount of woodworking. So that was just the nasty dust flying around in the shop from other types of work. I think I am going to stick with getting a HF DC and maybe a Super Dust Deputy and making my own modifications to create a cyclone and seeing how the heck you would vent the DC outside which is the thing I am wondering how you would do??? Anyone know how you wold vent a typical DC like the HF nit to the outside? I mean it would be an easy thing to cut a hole in the side of the garage and install a vent but how do you connect the vent to the DC when the exhaust for the DC is enormous?


Here is one example of outside ventilation on a basic 2 hp DC. I borrowed the photo from elsewhere, so haven't seen what it looks like outside. It is probably venting into a big chip box, though.

[Phil Thien]

I have a very small shop so I don't have room for a portable machine.



I think people may have missed this point, so I'm quoting it.

The smaller the shop, the harder it actually is to use a portable DC of any sort. There often is hardly room to turn around, much less navigate a DC from one tool to another.

Sometimes find a corner where a permanent DC can be placed, and adding some ductwork, is a better answer even for a small shop.

[Steve Milito]

I think people may have missed this point, so I'm quoting it.

The smaller the shop, the harder it actually is to use a portable DC of any sort. There often is hardly room to turn around, much less navigate a DC from one tool to another.

Sometimes find a corner where a permanent DC can be placed, and adding some ductwork, is a better answer even for a small shop.

+1
The other issue with portable is that for small jobs you often don't hook up the unit because it such a PITA. For some jobs the portable unit is in the way.
Then there are the jobs that repeatedly use two or three machines, like surfacing rough cut lumber into ' four square', where it is a major nuisance and waste of time hooking up and moving the DC.

[Michael Mayo]

Here is one example of outside ventilation on a basic 2 hp DC. I borrowed the photo from elsewhere, so haven't seen what it looks like outside. It is probably venting into a big chip box, though.

Thank you David for that pic. But how would you vent a bagged dust collector? Say I got the HF 2 hp. DC how would you vent something like that to the outside? Fresh air for me isn't a big deal because my detached garage is quite drafty already and isn't sealed in the least. I could get away with venting outside pretty easy but how to do it is my quandry?