Anyone use the Nezumi chisels?

[Matt Lau]

I'm building a guitar under the guidance of Randy Angella.
He likes to use carbon fiber, both as veneers and spruce/carbon/spruce sandwiches.

For the past two years, I've been thinking of upgrading from my (cheapest Japan Woodworker house brand) japanese white steel chisels to something nicer.

Any thoughts on the Nezumi chisels that Stu carries vs the PM-11 stuff?
He sent me a nice email this morning, but I'd like some third party opinions (no offense, Stu).

Also, I'm curious about thoughts on sharpening these.

[David Weaver]

I have never tried one, but if stu tells you something, I can vouch that it will be as or (on average) more honest than anywhere else.

Those are HAP chisels. You'd have two options to sharpen them:

1) something extremely hard like diamonds or CBN (stick with diamonds, CBN is a waste of money when there isn't a heat issue)
2) garden variety waterstones but grind the steel to the edge and work very little metallic area with the stone (i.e., microbevels).

I don't know how it would compare to PM11, but if you like japanese style chisels, it would be a pretty easy decision for me.

For cutting artificial materials, I'd bet the HAP would be great. PM11 might be, too, but someone will have to confirm it.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm completely lost, trying to read the response -

What is meant by CBN and HAP?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm completely lost, trying to read the response -

What is meant by CBN and HAP?

I had the same thought. Took me some googling - CBN is (I believe) Cubic Boron Nitride - an abrasive that is better than diamond in some applications when made properly. I dunno - I didn't look too much into it.

HAP I guess is referring to Hitachi's HAP-40 steel (they may have other numbers of "HAP" steel) which from what I quickly read I gather is a powdered metal steel, that may or may not be M4.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I had the same thought. Took me some googling - CBN is (I believe) Cubic Boron Nitride - an abrasive that is better than diamond in some applications when made properly. I dunno - I didn't look too much into it.

HAP I guess is referring to Hitachi's HAP-40 steel (they may have other numbers of "HAP" steel) which from what I quickly read I gather is a powdered metal steel, that may or may not be M4.

According to Hitachi, HAP-40 is a powdered metal HSS steel, with no AISI equivalent, and is not M4 equivalent. M4 equivalent would be Hitach XVC11, or specification name under Japanese Industrial Standards is SKH54.

[Ryan Baker]

The Hitachi powdered-metal high speed steel is supposed to have very long edge retention, particularly with abrasive and hard materials such as the carbon fiber mentioned in the original post. The Lee Valley PMV11 powdered steel has similarities (and differences). David was pointing out that because of the toughness of this steel, you don't want to have to sharpen much of it on normal water stones. He is suggesting something like diamond. The CBN (cubic boron nitride) grinding wheels are very popular among turners for sharpening high speed steel and powdered metal alloy turning tools.

[Stuart Tierney]

The Hitachi powdered-metal high speed steel is supposed to have very long edge retention, particularly with abrasive and hard materials such as the carbon fiber mentioned in the original post. The Lee Valley PMV11 powdered steel has similarities (and differences). David was pointing out that because of the toughness of this steel, you don't want to have to sharpen much of it on normal water stones. He is suggesting something like diamond. The CBN (cubic boron nitride) grinding wheels are very popular among turners for sharpening high speed steel and powdered metal alloy turning tools.

I'd like to make it clear here that Fujikawa specifically recommend that these chisels are not used with a high speed grinder, regardless of what the abrasive in the grinding wheel may be.

I don't completely understand it either, and should ask "why?" which I will as soon as I get a spare moment to do so. It may have something to do with these chisels being aimed at the 'woodworker' rather than 'construction site', and if so, it'd be nice to remove that limitation just in case something happens like dropping one on a concrete floor.

(Although if that happens, I don't like the chances of the floor making it out intact...)

The fact is, I don't know for certain which PM-HSS they're actually using, only that's it's frighteningly hard, stupefyingly tough, it takes a very, very good edge and that most ceramic type waterstones will work, although some need some assistance to work well with the steel and some will not work at all.

About the only similarities with the PMV-11 and the Fujikawa Funmatsu Nezumi is that they're both Powder Metal steels, they're both in the form of chisels and both, as far as I'm aware, are the only PM chisels that are available on the open market.

Stu.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the grinder prohibition is one of those "no white shoes after Labor Day things".

[David Weaver]

I'd like to make it clear here that Fujikawa specifically recommend that these chisels are not used with a high speed grinder

Oops!! (I'd probably still grind them, but treat them like I would old carbon steel chisels).

[Stanley Covington]

About the only similarities with the PMV-11 and the Fujikawa Funmatsu Nezumi is that they're both Powder Metal steels, they're both in the form of chisels and both, as far as I'm aware, are the only PM chisels that are available on the open market. Stu.

Tsunesaburo makes a powered metal steel chisel. I have handled but not used one. A friend tested them and told me he was not overly impressed, but his application was not the same, so they may be perfect for what Mat is looking for, as far as I know.

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

Tsunesaburo makes a powered metal steel chisel. I have handled but not used one. A friend tested them and told me he was not overly impressed, but his application was not the same, so they may be perfect for what Mat is looking for, as far as I know.

Stan

Really?

I did not know that. Next time I talk to dad Tsunesaburo, I'll ask him.

(If I fail to recognize him one more time, he'll probably make a chisel to stab me in the eye with...)

I don't disagree with not being impressed, not at all. While these things by far the meanest chisels I've ever used, and haven't heard of much that's even on the same planet edge retention wise, I still very much prefer a decent, plain white steel chisel for everyday stuff. Nothing to do with sharp or durability though, I don't know why, but it somehow feels wrong to not stop once in a while and touch up the edge on a chisel you're working with.

But not everyone thinks the same. If we agreed, we'd all be happily using rocks as we'd never have moved out of the caves...

And Dave, you'll find out soon enough. ;)

Stu.

[David Weaver]

White steel, I like that a lot, too. It's almost universally a better version of our vintage chisels, and it still sharpens on anything.


And Dave, you'll find out soon enough. ;)

uh oh!

I have a norton IM 313 tri hone on the way. I'm guessing those stones probably aren't going to do it. Well, the carborundum of the bunch might, but the fine stones will be a little lacking. I'll grind it, along with the koyama sort of HSS chisels I ordered. I'm pretty sure I could grind just about anything that had to be tempered without adversely affecting the hardness.

[Chris Vandiver]

Tsunesaburo makes a powered metal steel chisel. I have handled but not used one. A friend tested them and told me he was not overly impressed, but his application was not the same, so they may be perfect for what Mat is looking for, as far as I know.

Stan

That's very surprising to hear that Tsunesaburo makes chisels.

[Charlie Stanford]

That's very surprising to hear that Tsunesaburo makes chisels.

Only his hairdresser knows for sure.

[Stanley Covington]

I spoke too soon. Sorry. :o Tsunesaburo makes a powdered metal plane they call the Saketsubo or "Sake Pot." I have held this plane but not used it.

The manufacturer I was thinking of was actually Ioroi. They call it the 集成材用鑿　　ハップ４０SYUSEIZAIYOUNOMI HAPPU40. From the name, it sounds like it is Hitachi's HAP40. I have also played with this chisel but not cut anything with it. Here is a link to the webpage. http://www.ioroi.co.jp/menu1.html

Here is a pic.

252685

There is no reason I know of that would prevent powered metal from making a great chisel blade for some applications. Note that I am not recommending Ioroi products. I would be embarrassed to own most of their stuff.

Stan

[Stuart Tierney]

I spoke too soon. Sorry. :o Tsunesaburo makes a powdered metal plane they call the Saketsubo or "Sake Pot." I have held this plane but not used it.

Stan

Umm, I'm sorry for having to correct you, but the plane's name is pronounced 'Miki', but the kanji used to write it are indeed 'sake' and 'pot'.

I own one of these planes, but didn't pay for it. Case of not what but who you know...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I would be embarrassed to own most of their stuff.

Stan

I got a chuckle out of this. I have the mokume chisels that are on that page, but they were cheaper than getting whatever japan woodworker's hardware store flavor of the day was at the time. They are decent chisels, but I wouldn't pay close to the $1300-1400 that a set of them is supposed to bring from iida.

The mortise chisel a friend had that we tested didn't meet its hardness spec, though. My bench chisels are probably also a couple of ticks soft, or maybe it's the kamaji (which I'd rather have with a black finish than mokume). But they are better than any western chisel that I have, clearly better in use. They hold their edge longer, and they're as easy to sharpen as any chisel I have - no matter what the medium is. They are pure joy to use, it's too bad that on every project, there's only going to be one or two parts where you use them heavily.

I only got a chuckle because sometimes the iyoroi stuff that you see in person here can be downright horrifying, and the stuff that category is probably responsible for a lot of the wrong-headed beliefs here.

I have harrassed stu pretty much every step along the way about what he carries, but at the end of the day, he carries pretty much everything I ever bothered him about (the very good but reasonable makers, like koyama-ichi, etc). Otherwise over here in the states we get shelled on price vs. what you get from most of the places here (maybe with the exception of TFWW, they seem to genuinely be interested in what they offer) - either that, or someone will carry only the prestige names from over there, and we want the ones that are making prestige quality stuff who haven't been doing it long enough to command several hundred dollars a chisel.

[Charlie Stanford]

I spoke too soon. Sorry. :o Tsunesaburo makes a powdered metal plane they call the Saketsubo or "Sake Pot." I have held this plane but not used it.

The manufacturer I was thinking of was actually Ioroi. They call it the 集成材用鑿　　ハップ４０SYUSEIZAIYOUNOMI HAPPU40. From the name, it sounds like it is Hitachi's HAP40. I have also played with this chisel but not cut anything with it. Here is a link to the webpage. http://www.ioroi.co.jp/menu1.html

Here is a pic.

252685

There is no reason I know of that would prevent powered metal from making a great chisel blade for some applications. Note that I am not recommending Ioroi products. I would be embarrassed to own most of their stuff.

Stan

Is 'sake pot' supposed to be indicative of something? How should the relatively unitiated interpret this? On its face it frankly sounds stupid.

[Stanley Covington]

Umm, I'm sorry for having to correct you, but the plane's name is pronounced 'Miki', but the kanji used to write it are indeed 'sake' and 'pot'.

Stu.

Stu:

Thanks for clarifying that. Actually I was wrong in another way too. The conventional reading turns out to be "sakatsubo," not "saketsubo". :o

Wow, what a stretch to put those to ji's together and read it Miki. No worse than お土産　being read omiyage, or 常磐 being read tokiwa, I suppose. But what does a pot of sake have to do with a plane iron? Do you know the background for the name? :confused:

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I got a chuckle out of this. I have the mokume chisels that are on that page, but they were cheaper than getting whatever japan woodworker's hardware store flavor of the day was at the time. They are decent chisels, but I wouldn't pay close to the $1300-1400 that a set of them is supposed to bring from iida.

I only got a chuckle because sometimes the iyoroi stuff that you see in person here can be downright horrifying, and the stuff that category is probably responsible for a lot of the wrong-headed beliefs here.


David:

Is the mokume set you have made using pre-laminated rikizai material, or is it a traditional forged lamination? I had a set of standard used Ioroi chisels that was given to me many years ago that were forge welded (you can tell of course, because the high carbon layer gets thicker along the sides of the chisel, while a rikizai chisel is the same thickness straight across). They weren't bad chisels, just too soft, so I re-gifted them right away. I have heard that Ioroi is now using rikizai material for most of its products. Is this true?

[David Weaver]

I don't know what they're using elsewhere, but they're forge welded. Their forge welds are cleanly done - there are no voids, but the shape of the high carbon layer gets beat up a little as opposed to a super high dollar smith who will do that work very tidy and make sure the weld is the right thickness.

Still, they are very pleasant chisels to use because the kamaji just melts away on the stones and they are between western chisels and the hardest of japanese chisels in hardness, still hard and durable enough that you can keep them up indefinitely with a natural finish stone while you're working on something with them.

I almost cast them off initially because I was expecting glass hard chisels, but they've been a pleasant surprise in hardwoods. If I had paid the kind of money they ask for them when they're not on "clearance", I would expect them to be glass hard AND durable.

The only chisels I have used that really meet the standard of tidy, hard, durable and fairly inexpensive are koyamaichi.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu:

Thanks for clarifying that. Actually I was wrong in another way too. The conventional reading turns out to be "sakatsubo," not "saketsubo". :o

Wow, what a stretch to put those to ji's together and read it Miki. No worse than お土産　being read omiyage, or 常磐 being read tokiwa, I suppose. But what does a pot of sake have to do with a plane iron? Do you know the background for the name? :confused:

Stan

Most likely to do with Tsunesaburo being made in Miki, and they have gotten names from the general area before, so why not finagle a name that matches where they're made.

I don't know why they're called a liquor pot, but I do suspect why...

(Whatever you think the reason is, you'd be correct. Go see Tsunesaburo's blog and tell me I'm wrong there. ;) )

Next time I see them, and if I remember, I'll ask.

Should ask why the chisels are called 'mouse' chisels as well. They're even stamped with a mouse on them...

Stu.

[Matt Lau]

My guitar-building teacher will probably buy some of the Nezumi chisels.

He's been using some vintage japanese chisels that I got for him, and it glides through carbon like butter.
If these are even harder, he'll be truly happy indeed!

[David Weaver]

I'll poke my head in and mention that I got the two chisels I ordered from stu, as well as the one mentioned above (the first two I paid for, the third is more or less a part of my trading back and forth with stu, which we have been doing for a long time). I've only used the "less tough" chisels that I ordered, the koyama branded "Shusezai" chisels that are some sort of unknown steel.

I figured I'd be talking about edge holding, because that's why someone would order that type, but I haven't used them enough yet to comment on them so far as that goes. What I can comment on is the fact that they are pretty tough to hone compared to white steel (no natural stones, grinder - yes a dry grinder, though a belt sander or wet grinder would be fine - and good synthetic waterstones with a slurry is probably mandatory), and the most pleasant surprise is they are one type of metal and very thin. As in thin making them very comfortable to use and very light to handle. I think that a lot of the old chisels made for cabinet makers were pretty light compared to a lot of the fenceposts we have now, at least my butchers and other similar chisels are.

Big fan of the thickness and weight so far.

Bonus being that they're not too expensive and the hoop is already set on them. Not that it's hard to set a hoop, but I don't mind when the chisels come with the hoops already set when they're done properly, and they are.

If the stones are any indication, they should be pretty durable.

I'll set the hoop on the monster maybe this weekend and see how it is on the stones. The shapton 1k was fine for lapping the back of the semi-hss chisels, which were very close to flat to start, so long as I kept a little slurry on the surface (i.e., one you'd generate by rubbing it with whatever you use to lap, but leave the abrasive there). Loose abrasive rolling around always seems make any stone that cuts something marginally cut really well.

I haven't needed any chisels for a long time, but do have some curiosity about the koyamas as I recall Kingshott using a nearly identical chisel in his videos long ago and gushing about it (and he didn't exactly have a whole lot of newfangled stuff), thus the order. I landed on these basically because they were the cheapest ones I could find where I could order individual chisesl. The medium sizes are in the neighborhood of $45-$50 each. Joel has some ("special alloy carpenter chisels"), too, but they are in a set and there is something that baffles me about the japanese chisel sets in the 5-6 chisel sizes, they always have two big chisels you'll never use and they're weak on the smaller chisels in the 1/4 - 3/4 range that you'll use a lot.

[Sam Takeuchi]

If it says shuseizai, most likely　SKH51/M2.

[David Weaver]

Ahh...we'll see how it holds up. I've always figured M2 was far better for blades than it is for chisels, but I should have occasion to use them pretty heavily over the next couple of weeks and compare them to good white #2 chisels. I've not had anything M2 that was up to their level of hardness, though, either.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Actually I might be off. I somehow always had this idea that a lot of shuseizai (laminated wood) chisels are SKH51, I don't know why, but come to think of it, I've never seen chisels made from SKH51 (there may be, but at least I don't see SKH51 specifically). They rarely specify what steel they use for HSS chisels. Normally their descriptions go only as far as "HSS", "special HSS", or "powdered HSS". So maybe it's something else entirely.

[Stuart Tierney]

Actually I might be off. I somehow always had this idea that a lot of shuseizai (laminated wood) chisels are SKH51, I don't know why, but come to think of it, I've never seen chisels made from SKH51 (there may be, but at least I don't see SKH51 specifically). They rarely specify what steel they use for HSS chisels. Normally their descriptions go only as far as "HSS", "special HSS", or "powdered HSS". So maybe it's something else entirely.

No Kidding.

I've explicitly asked Koyama what they are, and they dodged the question well enough that I didn't bother asking again. They're difficult to get information like this out of, which is more than a little annoying. However, they're quick to react and easy to deal with so the slight annoyance in that regard isn't a big problem.

(Makes things easy for me. I get what I need quickly, I get problems solved without fuss. Small annoyances are easy enough to overlook.)

They're not M2/SKH51. Koyama already make those, they're cheaper, and in use and on the stones behave quite differently. Not a huge difference, but I feel more comfortable and confident with the Shuseizai chisels.

I think, based on what they cost and what they do and how they work, they're YXR-7. Basically 'toughened' HSS, and solid so they're not going to eat grinding wheels like a laminated chisel will want to do.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I'm about a month removed from having to do a bunch of half blinds. If I had some foresight, I would've ordered them a little earlier, it'd be easier to tell how durable they are.

As they are, I really like the thin profile. They seem a little less gummy than M2, but like I said above, I wouldn't know what really hard M2 is because the only certain M2 I have is sorby turning tools, and best I can tell, they're gummy and not too hard.

Muji is a little gummy, too, but not as soft. Who knows what that is, though.

[Marvin McConoughey]

I think the grinder prohibition is one of those "no white shoes after Labor Day things".

The company's rejection of high speed sharpening may come from knowing that some customers will bear down on the grinding wheel until the chisel steel is damaged.

[Frederick Skelly]

The company's rejection of high speed sharpening may come from knowing that some customers will bear down on the grinding wheel until the chisel steel is damaged.

444879

Hey guys, this thread is from 2013. :)

[Jim Koepke]

444879

Hey guys, this thread is from 2013. :)

Besides that four of the posters are listed as Guest.

Nice image though Fred.

jtk

[Ron Brese]

Yes you even get that recommendation for their White Paper steel as well.

Ron