High Angle Frog

[Jim Foster]

I have several #4's and one is a LN. I'm considering getting a high angle frog for the LN, and I'm curious if anyone has a strong opinion on the 50 or 55 degree frog. My current and near future projects include Q-Sawn and Rift Sawn White Oak, Walnut and Cherry. Not sure if a 5 degree change is enough, but sometimes a little is a lot. With my current setup, if the grain is nice, I'm in good shape, but most of it is not and I'm hoping a higher angle frog gives me a little more ability to clean up a face, all other things being equal. Besides it's a pretty inexpensive shop addition as far as those things go. :)

[David Weaver]

If you're going to get one instead of using the cap iron, get 55 degrees. If 45 degrees can't handle something, 50 degrees often can't, either. 55 degrees is a full step up in the resistance to tearout.

[Chris Griggs]

Even without a closely set cap iron, you shouldn't have many issues planing those woods at 45 degrees with a sharp blade. I would wait until the wood is in the shop and do some test cutting before I spent an extra $75. Unless you want to have one around anyway just in case. Its good to have one way to up the ante when you need to - be it using the cap iron (what I personally do) or a higher angle.

[Derek Cohen]

I totally agree with David's recommendation and reasoning for the 55 degree frog.

A little wax on the sole and the plane will glide effortlessly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Foster]

It just occurred to me I have a block plane I could use at 55 degrees by adjusting the bevel and see if it helps me with some of the problem areas I encounter. Could give me a bit of feedback before getting the high angle frog. By the way Derek, I'm not quite licensed to use wax on a sole yet. Tried it when I got my #7 running and I had a hard time keeping things under control...

[Jim Koepke]

It just occurred to me I have a block plane I could use at 55 degrees by adjusting the bevel and see if it helps me with some of the problem areas I encounter.

You could also go to Home Depot if there is one near you and buy the $3 Buck Brothers blade. Give it a sharpening then a 10º back bevel to see how that does in your bench plane. That would be easier than changing the angle back and forth on your block plane.

jtk

[Bill Rhodus]

I have for some time wanted to purchase a LN smoother but have been unable to justify the purchase by "need" and have delayed the purchase. When I decided I wanted a LN smoother, the frog angle became a sticking point that I wanted to resolve but have not yet satisfied. I get very good results in typical American domestic hardwoods with my standard angle smoothers in my shop and wooden single iron planes in my traveling tool kit (52 and 55 degrees). Undoubtedly you can get good results in American domestic woods by taking either route, high angle or chipbreaker setting. This is compromise I don't think I have to take if I decide to purchase a LN; why not get a high angle frog and utilize the chipbreaker? If the chipbreaker is set fine does it contribute to any negative issue with the HA frog? Is it beneficial to only increase the frog angle slightly (50 instead of 55) if I continue to utilize the chipbreaker? For many years I have made wooden single iron planes for my traveling tool kit and for family/friends and have intended to get a set of double irons to make a series of bodies with varying bed angles to evaluate the chipbreaker setting verses bed angle compromise. Is there a straight forward comparison on the net? Also, Derek, would it not be beneficial to utilize HA and chipbreakers on the Aussie timber or does this lead to too much resistance? I don't get the sense that a HA frog and close chipbreaker combo creates issues with American timber but only have a standard angle plane and background iron for evaluation.

[Derek Cohen]

Also, Derek, would it not be beneficial to utilize HA and chipbreakers on the Aussie timber or does this lead to too much resistance? I don't get the sense that a HA frog and close chipbreaker combo creates issues with American timber but only have a standard angle plane and background iron for evaluation.

Hi Bill

I did this when we were assessing the chip breaker effect.

At the start, a LV Small BUS with 62 degree cutting angle performed pretty well on the wood from Hell. A Stanley Bed Rock with LN blade and closed down chip breaker performed below the SBUS. Reasonable also, but not good enough was my LN #3 with 55 degree frog and the chip breaker pulled back. However, when the chip breaker was closed down, the performance of the #3 just shaded the SBUS.

My estimate of the chip breaker effect is that it is similar to adding about 10-, possibly about as much as 15 degrees to the cutting angle. So 55 degrees became apparent 65-70 degrees. Cutting angle counts. David Charlesworth talks of using a 25 degree backbevel on his #5 1/2 to achieve a 70 degree cutting angle.

The point is that sometimes you need higher cutting angles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Shaefer]

I have a variety of smoothers and would recommend the 50* frog. The 55* is too hard to push on something you use as often as smoother, and the 50* frog works about 90% as well as the 55 on all but the most gnarly grain. This is why I have an LA jack with several blades. If the super low angle on the stock blade won't work, then the super high angle on the blunted blade will. If you feel that you constantly work difficult woods that much that you need the piece of mind of minimal tear-out, then get toothed blade for a LA jack or smoother and a full bodied scraping plane.

[David Weaver]

I'm curious what folks who used hand tools a lot are having trouble with. Is there a lot of planing of verawood, or lignum or cocobolo or something? Cocobolo and the woods like that (that are 3000 hardness or so and have really strong chips) can from time to time cause trouble with a cap iron if it's not set tight, but otherwise, I have more trouble with softer woods that have a lot of figure than with harder woods - and not trouble with tearout so much, but dissatisfaction with the uniformity of the surface when you feel it (which doesn't amount to anything if you're covering it with finish, anyway.

[Bill Rhodus]

Derek, your response that the chipbreaker adds 10 to 15 degrees mirrors my own experience and is why I said what I said in my earlier post; I haven't been able to justify the purchase of the HA LN plane (I still want one). This is primarily due to the types of wood I typically use (walnut, cherry, poplar) and would be different for someone using Aussie or highly figured woods and also, I believe, led to much of the bickering I have seen on the forums concerning chipbreakers, bed angles, etc. David's post, where he inquires about the performance of planes on the different woods, is the crux of the matter for me. If I stick to tame woods do I need a HA plane or will the chipbreaker alone suffice (thus far it appears so)? Should I buy a HA plane and back the chipbreaker off for tame woods and lower it for gnarley woods? Buy 2 planes? Perhaps I will stick to my standard planes and use my toothing plane and scraper if/as needed.

[Curt Putnam]

FWIW, I talked with Deneb at WIA for a few minutes and mentioned my desire for a bronze smoother. He stated, unequivocally, that all smoothers should have the HA frog. I surmise that the reasoning is that smoothing takes (or should take) very light cuts (on the order of .001). You gain a smooth cut at the expense of the ability to hog off material. I did not have a chance to clarify with him as we immediately digressed to the thin plate dovetail saw.

[Danny Burns]

If I were switching angles of attack often, I would buy an extra bench plane blade, since by putting a back bevel on it, you can achieve any angle you want, so if 55 degrees is not enough, then put a larger back bevel on, and you are off to the races.
If it is not a very often kind of thing, then I would just put a back bevel, temporarily on the blade I have already, and regrind it back when finished.

Of course snugging up the chipbreaker to the edge might just save you having to shill-out period. So try things out on your wood first.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm curious what folks who used hand tools a lot are having trouble with. Is there a lot of planing of verawood, or lignum or cocobolo or something? Cocobolo and the woods like that (that are 3000 hardness or so and have really strong chips) can from time to time cause trouble with a cap iron if it's not set tight, but otherwise, I have more trouble with softer woods that have a lot of figure than with harder woods - and not trouble with tearout so much, but dissatisfaction with the uniformity of the surface when you feel it (which doesn't amount to anything if you're covering it with finish, anyway.

Amen. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Chris Griggs]

FWIW, I talked with Deneb at WIA for a few minutes and mentioned my desire for a bronze smoother. He stated, unequivocally, that all smoothers should have the HA frog. I surmise that the reasoning is that smoothing takes (or should take) very light cuts (on the order of .001). You gain a smooth cut at the expense of the ability to hog off material. I did not have a chance to clarify with him as we immediately digressed to the thin plate dovetail saw.

He said the same thing to me at a show. And despite the fact that he is a far more experienced and knowledgeable woodworker than me, I disagree with him. Smoothing a board, with .001 shaving a week or more after you'd flattened takes too long. When I questioned him about using a chipbreaker he said something along the lines of.... [of course that works, but having a high angle frog is easier]

He might be right that its easier - that of course is subjective, and since I've never had a high angled frog I won't disagree with him on that point. But I think saying that all smoothers should have been made at 50 degrees or more from the beginning implies that 45 degree is inadequate in most situations - which is incorrect, especially if one uses the cap iron. Of course, the requirement varies with the species of lumber one uses as well.

Not trying to beat a dead horse here. I don't care how any individual chooses to work wood. I'm sure a HA frog is a great option, and if I were buying an LN smoother I'd probably consider getting on just in case. That said, I do take issue when someone like Deneb implies that it is required. To me there is a big difference between something being nice to have (or even very very nice to have) and something being required. A 45 degree bailey plane can and does work walnut, cherry, oak and figured maple just fine (again, not saying the OP or anyone else should not buy an HA frog, by all means do what gets you the result you want - just saying its not required)

Oh yeah, and for the record. I really enjoyed meeting Deneb. REALLY nice guy, SUPER knowledgable. He indulged me and every stupid question I asked him for the 4 hours I hung around the LN booth. I hope I have the opportunity to chat with him again some day. I also learned a ton just standing around for a watching him show things to other customers. Presently, I just happen to disagree with him on that one point.

[John Luke]

I don't have as much experience or knowledge as a lot of people on here, but here's what I've noticed. My favorite smoothers are a type 11 Bailey 4 1/2 with a Hock iron and chipbreaker and an LN 4 1/2 with the 55 degree frog. I get my wood straight from a local sawmill. On the White pine,and Walnut I get, the Bailey with the standard 45 degree frog and a tight chipbreaker leaves a beautiful sheen. I also have some Cherry and Hickory. I know cherry is supposed to be easy to work but what I got is not. It has a lot of small areas which tear out. The LN with a 55 degree frog handles both of these nicely when set fine. The Baily will tear out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Smoothing a board, with .001 shaving a week or more after you'd flattened takes too long.

I certainly like to take a thicker shaving than that when I can get away with it, both for speed, and because with a lot of woods, (particularly softwoods, but some hardwoods, too) shavings that thin turn to dust on me. They come out like nice shavings, certainly, but just the task of sweeping them up or vacuuming them makes a dusty mess as the thin shavings break apart. Being that I work in living quarters, the less dusty I can make things, the better.

[Derek Cohen]

The infill makers of olde in the UK would used 47 degrees for the plane's bed, and this is replicated by modern makers, such as Conrad Sauer. Old Street Tools use 55 degrees in their woodies, as does HNT Gordon in the A55 smoother, and 60 degrees in the other.

It is worth reading the citation by Terry Gordon in regard to his half pitch smoother .. "Used for final smoothing of any timber surface which has been dressed by a planer, thicknesser or Jack Plane. Used correctly this plane will smooth any difficult timber surface leaving little or no sanding".

Woods used for furniture around the world vary considerably. The local eucalypts are hard and interlocked, and a high cutting angle is a necessity most of the time to avoid damaging the surfaces that you are trying to finish. Smoothers are finishing tools, and you do not want to have to repair damage at that point. The woods of the US appear quite mild by comparison, which is an important factor to keep in mind. That is, our needs can differ quite considerably, and I see many woodies using common pitch planes quite comfortably. Nevertheless, for those who are working with complex grain - and they exist as much in the US as Australia - a common pitch smoother leaves you vulnerable. Whether you are using the chip breaker to effectively raise the cutting angle, or whether you use a higher cutting angle via a higher bed (BD) or a high bevel (BU), your mind set for a smoother needs to be how to minimise the possibility of tear out at this stage.

Higher cutting angles are indeed harder to push. However one is generally taking finer shavings at this stage, and the addition of wax to lubricate the sole changes the whole game. If you have not tried this before, you are in for a major change of mind and method.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Portland]

Newbie question:
At what point does a high angle smoother cease to make sense if scrapers and scraper planes are used? I'd think a smoother could take a bigger cut (based on the settings)?